5@5 - Why hunting your own dinner is an ethical way to eat
July 2nd, 2012
05:00 PM ET
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5@5 is a daily, food-related list from chefs, writers, political pundits, musicians, actors, and all manner of opinionated people from around the globe.

Editor's Note: Lily Raff McCaulou is an award-winning journalist, Knight-Wallace Fellowship recipient and a columnist for The Bulletin in Bend, Oregon. Her first book, "Call of the Mild: Learning to Hunt My Own Dinner" was published in June.

Growing up, I didn’t know anyone who hunted. Hunters, I figured, were probably just barbaric gun nuts. Then, eight years ago, I moved from Manhattan to rural Oregon, to write for a small newspaper. My perspective shifted when I began interviewing hunters for my articles and realized that although I had long considered myself an environmentalist, these hunters – most of whom scoffed at the “E” word – were more knowledgeable and thoughtful about animals and nature than I was.

Eventually, I decided to buy a gun and join them. But don’t worry, I’m still an environmentalist, loud and proud.

Five Reasons Why Hunting a Wild Animal Makes an Ethical Dinner: Lily Raff McCaulou

1. Hunting has a light environmental footprint
No antibiotics, artificial hormones, pesticides, herbicides, or unnatural feeds were used in raising this meat. Unlike farmed animals, a wild one doesn't contribute to soil erosion, water pollution, or the displacement of native plants in favor of a monoculture. No land is tilled to feed a wild animal, so additional carbon isn’t released into the atmosphere.

2. Wild animals aren’t subject to the misery of factory farming
My venison was never confined, castrated, or branded the way most farmed steers are. My duck was never caged, de-beaked, or toe-clipped the way most domesticated poultry is. Wild animals, unlike many domesticated ones, aren’t bred, fed and medicated to achieve rapid weight gain so that they can be killed at just a few weeks of age.

3. None of the meat is wasted
After I shoot an animal, I gut it and butcher it myself (or, in the case of an 800-pounds bull elk, with some help from friends). This way, I know the meat was handled safely. I don’t have to worry about listeria or trichinosis. And I’m confident that as much of the animal as possible is used. To hunt and butcher an animal is to recognize that meat is not some abstract form of protein that springs into existence tightly wrapped in cellophane and styrofoam. Meat is life. So I seek out recipes that make the most of it. I cook it with care. I share with friends and family. I make sure eat every bite gets enjoyed.

4. Hunting pays for conservation
To hunt for elk this fall, for example, I’ve already bought an Oregon hunting license for $29.50, paid $8 to enter a lottery for the right to hunt in a particular spot, and purchased a $42.50 tag. That means I’ve already paid $80 toward wildlife research and habitat protection in my home state. Bird-watchers and hikers haven’t paid anywhere near that much.

With approximately 12.5 million hunters nationwide, we’re talking about real money. Proceeds from the Federal Duck Stamp – a required $15 annual purchase for migratory waterfowl hunters – have added more than five million acres to the national wildlife refuge system. And federal excise taxes on hunting equipment and ammunition garner more than $200 million a year for wildlife management and the purchase of public lands.

5. Hunting promotes conservation
To hunt is to participate in the ecosystem rather than just watch from the sidelines. When I track an animal, I use all of my senses to take in my surroundings, as if I were a wild animal myself. So by the time I actually shoot something, I’ve developed a deep connection to the species and to the land. I considered myself an environmentalist before I started hunting. But back then, all of my reasons for conservation were theoretical. Now that I hunt, I have a real-life, vested interest in seeing places – and wildlife populations – preserved in the long-term. Someday, I want take my son hunting in all of my favorite spots.

Is there someone you'd like to see in the hot seat? Let us know in the comments below and if we agree, we'll do our best to chase 'em down.

Previously - 'The Hunger Games' bucks hunter stereotypes and Chef Dan Barber: Killing your own food is an incontestably moral act and 5@5 – Five ways to eat more duck

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Filed under: 5@5 • Animal Rights • Food Politics • Hunting • Path to the Plate • Think


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  11. carafrye

    If you are considering only our decision to eat a plant based diet then in this aspect yes, Elrond and all others, vegans are smarter and better because we understand that our desire to taste meat is inferior to the animals desire to live. A human's diet does not require animal products in order to be a healthy diet. However as vegans we do not conclude that in every other aspect of our existence are we better than someone else. Your defensiveness and frustration stem from guilt. Surely you will deny this (I did until I was 25), but I highly suggest you remove yourself from Rivendell and open your eyes to reality. Vegans are not "at it again" because we never stopped being at it. Vegans never stop caring and looking for opportunities to communicate inconvenient truths and messages of compassion to someone who has been blocked from the reality of the pain and suffering and trauma that is enmeshed in the life and death of any being that is killed so a human can enjoy 15-20 minutes of the flavor and texture of his/her body. This article is drenched in excuses that the writer has come up with in order to justify the unnecessary death of an animal. "her venison" is a red flag showing that her true intentions are to remind herself that she is a dominant species, that she is predator, that she is capable of owning anything and everything that leaves a footprint on this earth. If she were truly in touch with nature she would see the abundance it provides that allows humans to eat healthfully with out inflicting pain or causing death to animals that want to live their lives just as we want to live our own. I sincerely ask any of you who feel the need to argue what I have said to first consider why humans eat animals when they are in no way a dietary requirement. Never say never to being vegan. It is a hell of a lot more easy, more peaceful, more in-tune with nature than spending hours picking off animals that have their own families, feelings, desires and instincts to survive.

    July 14, 2012 at 10:48 am |
    • Nope

      Carafrye, thank you. I'm always amazed by the hostility and outrage expressed toward vegans and vegetarians. Your post was well put.

      July 16, 2012 at 8:39 am |
    • Elrond of Rivendell

      carafrye,

      Your post only highlights my point. You stated that you are indeed smarter and better than those of us who don't share your opinions and views. How utterly arrogant is that?

      You, much like religious zealots, insist that your way is the only true way, and you continue to try to convert we barbaric heathens whom you see as stupid and unenlightened.

      I don't see anyone here trying to convert you away from being a vegan. Do you? I couldn't care less what you eat. That's your choice and your right, based on your beliefs. But apparently, I am not afforded that same courtesy.

      All your "inconvenient truths" seem to be pseudo-science opinions that are not peer-reviewed and are not based on the scientific method, but they agree nicely with your beliefs, so you promote them as fact.

      I don't share your beliefs, and I don't need to be converted to your religion. I don't need your religion. All the proselytizing in the world won't make me a vegan. You use circular logic to justify your position, yet it all comes back to the same thing; "We're right and you're wrong, because we say so."

      Why do you feel you must continue to try to convert everyone to believe what you believe?

      I'm not hostile towards you. I just think you're goofy. And pretty arrogant.

      I'm not suggesting you must agree with me, only that you consider the possibility that you might be completely wrong. Has that though never crossed your mind?

      The only open hostility I see here is vegans calling non-believers 'murderers and criminals.'

      July 16, 2012 at 2:41 pm |
      • lena

        Since the beginning of time there were great minds like Leonardo Da Vinci, Plato, Socrates, Albert Einstein, Lao Tzu and many others who tried to convey the message that eating animals (our own kind) is not appropriate for humans and is not even healthy. But "you, much like some religious zealots, insist that your way is the only true way." Why kill if it is proven that we are not omnivorous. We feed cows meat now and because they can survive on it, soon we will forget that they are herbivorous.

        July 16, 2012 at 4:04 pm |
        • Elrond of Rivendell

          Trying to convert someone with out-and-out absurdity won't work. Humans aren't omnivores? Do you really believe that? Are you really that desperate?

          July 16, 2012 at 4:29 pm |
      • lena

        Every movement towards a less violent society started with a few. These few were often times ridiculed, persecuted and even killed. The mass always had a hard time to change and always had ‘leaders’ who kept singing the same old songs that were pleasant to their ears. “Nothing will benefit human health and increase the chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet.” ― Albert Einstein

        July 16, 2012 at 5:00 pm |
    • UFO

      I don't like vegan chicks because they won't swallow.

      January 6, 2013 at 1:50 pm |
  12. Nope

    I'm surprised that anyone who dares to disagree with this writer is termed - in so many words - a "religious terrorist." Seems a bit dramatic, not to mention, offensive. Also, the leap from vegan to "religious terrorist" is especially bizarre and most likely the creativity engendered by the mind of a very angry, disturbed person.

    July 13, 2012 at 10:01 am |
  13. Elrond of Rivendell

    The Vegans are at it again.

    Their philosophy:

    "We are righter than you. We are smarter than you. We are more moral and ethical than you.

    Our way is the only way. You must change your belief system to align with our belief system, because you are wrong and we are right."

    Sounds a lot like religious terrorism, doesn't it?

    July 13, 2012 at 3:24 am |
    • Nope

      Wow, stereotype much, Elrond?

      July 13, 2012 at 8:33 am |
  14. Nope

    Sorry, not buying it. Her words: "So by the time I actually shoot something, I’ve developed a deep connection to the species and to the land." I'm not sure how shooting an animal to death could be considered a deep connection to it. seems cowardly somehow.

    July 11, 2012 at 8:53 am |
    • Guest

      Seems no more cowardly to me than passing judgement about an entire group of people or an activity that you clearly know nothing about while hiding behind the anonymity of the internet.

      July 11, 2012 at 11:40 pm |
      • Nope

        And your real name would be "Guest"? I have the right to express my opinion on a comments board; there's nothing cowardly about it at all. And I do know hunters, so your comment is inaccurate. Perhaps you should think a bit before you pop off in a post.

        July 12, 2012 at 12:36 pm |
      • lena

        Guest, I would like to make peace... Can I come up on air?

        July 12, 2012 at 4:46 pm |
      • Nope

        Also, anonymous Guest, I'm not sure why you're accusing me of not knowing anything about a certain group of people. I'm making a statement about this particular writer, this particular hunter.

        July 13, 2012 at 8:33 am |
    • Chris

      A delayed response, but a response none-the-less. When you participate in a hunt, the trek involved, and to become part of the surrounding, you DO develop a connection with the land. You have to remain quiet, take in the hints from where the animal may be, and you learn to understand more about the environment than you did before. It is cowardly to hunt? It seems slightly ironic given the idea that you are a human, who has evolved from an earlier species, who has had an early ancestor hunt prior in existence. I'm sorry if you do not agree, but here is my opinion.

      November 25, 2012 at 8:32 pm |
    • Toufik

      Yes, it is cowardly, because going to the store and buying something which was already killed for you really shows how brave you are.

      And "Nope" isn't a real name, so it's no different than guest.

      November 15, 2013 at 3:33 pm |
  15. lena

    (the real one)

    Again? Copying my name, and posting some so rude in my stead? Sigh.

    Don't bother reporting. Trolls are everywhere on the internet these days. It's sad to see such a low level of human life.

    Again, I only wish for peace and love in this discussion! But the troll is right in one sense - I'm sorry if I offend anyone with my opinions; however, this IS the opinion section.

    July 9, 2012 at 1:52 pm |
  16. Reporting you

    Guess what? You think you can anonymously post, but, remember your user name is linked to your email address. I'm sure CNN will be interested in knowing about your activities. Remember, there is no anonymity on the Web. Can't wait to report you to the moderators.

    July 9, 2012 at 1:47 pm |
    • lena

      I don't understand..? Perhaps, I don't want to.

      July 9, 2012 at 1:53 pm |
  17. lena

    The Netherlands study, entitled “Climate Benefits of Changing Diet,” analyzed the entire chain of animal-raising activities from field to fork. It calculated the monetary cost of halting climate change, which was defined as stabilizing atmospheric CO2 at the level of 450 parts per million. The report concluded that US$20 trillion, or 50 percent of a total US$40 trillion estimated cost, could be saved from the global shift to a low-meat diet. Going even further, the researchers found that a completely vegan diet with no animal products would save an enormous 80% by 2050. What’s more, another benefit was discovered. Because plant-based diets produce much more food for humans than meat and dairy-based diets, some of the land not used to grow livestock could be turned back into carbon-absorbing forests, which are known to help reduce CO2 emissions.

    Denial
    Anger
    Bargaining
    Depression
    Acceptance

    July 9, 2012 at 12:18 pm |
    • Primal 4 Life

      You should move there then.

      July 9, 2012 at 2:47 pm |
      • InvasiveSpecies

        Primal4Life, I don't understand your hostility about all this. She's just expressing differing opinions and backing it up with some interesting information. I learned something from reading your posts and I'm learning something from reading Lena's. It's good to keep an open mind for both sides, and not stoop to insults.

        July 9, 2012 at 3:22 pm |
        • sam stone

          I don't think Primal4life stoops to insults, he raises himself to them

          July 9, 2012 at 4:00 pm |
        • Primal 4 Life

          I love knowing that I live rent free in sam stones mind, tiny as it is.

          LMFAO!!!!!!

          July 9, 2012 at 4:17 pm |
    • InvasiveSpecies

      I think everybody's in the anger stage at the moment, LOL. Interesting study; thanks for posting the information. I'm trying to absorb information from everyone ... I think there are a lot of ethical hunters who take no pleasure in killing, but simply are doing it to get food on the table. And vegans are so passionate about their feelings, yet if you believe in animal advocacy, it's difficult not to be passionate. I just think we can all try to learn from each other here somehow. I appreciate research and posts about studies - always interesting.

      July 9, 2012 at 3:25 pm |
    • Guest

      We're talking about hunting, not raising livestock. Not one little iota of the data you posted is relevant to the carbon footprint of wild animals living on untended land that are killed on an individual basis. Those animals did not have massive carbon footprints, they had *exactly* the carbon footprint that they were supposed to have. Not to mention that without some population control, many game species DO have negative impacts on their environments. Short-sighted folks a long time ago wiped out way too many of the predators of these game species so without a check of some kind they'll run wild. Turn your faux indignation towards the tens of thousands of wild horses that are slaughtered every year if you want to weigh in on something.

      Red Herrings
      Preaching
      Judgement
      Sanctimony

      July 11, 2012 at 11:38 pm |
      • lena

        i'm glad you actually recognize that killing horses is murder. I guess you love them more than other animals, maybe because you know them better, like your dog. The reason why hunting is not good of a solution is because it kills, teaches how to kill and when most of animals in the wild will be killed, humans will start to raise them again. if humans kill 60 billion animals each year, do you think there won't be any environmental impact when removing 60 billion animals from the wild or even half? How long will it take your group of people with a similar activity to kill them all? Guest, either you are paid to talk these things or...... it's sad

        July 12, 2012 at 4:10 pm |
  18. the truth

    if we were all atheists this wouldn't be happening

    July 8, 2012 at 8:13 am |
  19. What?

    You really need to "bone up" on your scriptures, Lena, because what you said is simply and emphatically not true. That leaves one of two possible conclusions – either 1) you are so ignorant of the scriptures that you don't know this isn't true, or 2) what you posted was an out-and-out lie.

    HINT: Read the third chapter of Leviticus and then get back to us.

    July 7, 2012 at 11:20 pm |
    • lena

      Then what is the Truth?

      July 8, 2012 at 12:49 am |
    • lena

      i think the more people were eating animals, the more they thought God enjoys the smell of it (just like them). According to the bible, originally, we were eating ' every seed-bearing plant and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. "

      July 8, 2012 at 12:55 am |
    • lena

      when we lost contact with God, we did all kinds of things that brought bad luck to us. I assume, otherwise we might have paradise on Earth....

      July 8, 2012 at 1:10 am |
      • Guest

        Or it might have nothing to do with any sort of religion and more to do with the fact that humans are an omnivorous species of ape with enough self-awareness to effect some control of what we eat.

        July 8, 2012 at 1:21 am |
        • lena

          one of the latest discoveries humans made is that cows are also omnivorous: http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/nature/meat-back-on-menu-for-animal-feed-20-years-after-bse-crisis-2072188.html

          July 9, 2012 at 1:20 pm |
    • lena

      "I am full of the burnt offering of rams and the fat of fed beasts. I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of goats...Bring no more vain offerings... When you spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes though you make many prayers, and I will not hear you. For your hands are full of blood..." – (Isaiah 1:11-15)

      Isaiah 65:25
      "The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but dust will be the serpent's food. They will neither hunt nor destroy on all my holy mountain," says the LORD.

      July 8, 2012 at 7:07 pm |
  20. rick

    good diets can be vegan, poor diets can be vegan

    good diets can include meat, poor diets can include meat

    it is all up to the individual

    July 7, 2012 at 4:02 am |
  21. lena

    PLUTARCH:
    "Can you really ask what reason Pythagoras had for abstinence from flesh? For my part I rather wonder both by what accident and in what state of mind the first man touched his mouth to gore and brought his lips to the flesh of a dead creature, set forth tables of dead, stale bodies, and ventured to call food and nourishment the parts that has a little before bellowed and cried, moved and lived. How could eyes endure the slaughter when throats were slit and hides flayed and limbs torn from limb"
    How could his nose endure the stench? How was it that the pollution did not turn away his taste, which made contact with sores of others and sucked juices and serums from mortal wounds? It is certainly not lions or wolves that we eat out of self-defense; on the contrary, we ignore these and slaughter harmless, tame creatures without stings or teeth to harm us. For the sake of a little flesh we deprive them of sun, of light, of the duration of life to which they are entitled by birth and being."

    July 6, 2012 at 6:38 pm |
    • lena

      please don't remove again... it was written by Plutarch and not me.... the truth always hurts

      July 6, 2012 at 6:41 pm |
      • TheTruthIs

        The truth is God ended the animal sacrifices and sacrificed a man once for all, as predicted. Hebrews 10:8-12 Above, saying Sacrifices and offerings and burnt-offerings and sacrifices (of animals) for sin thou willedst not, neither tookest pleasure in (which are offered according to the Mosaic law); 9 then he said, Lo, I (Jesus Christ) come to do thy will. He takes away the first (sacrifice system) that he may establish the second; 10 by which will (His will) we have been sanctified (made holy) through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every (Jewish cf. the context) priest stands daily ministering, and offering often the same sacrifices (animal sacrifices), which can never take away sins. 12 But *he*, (Jesus Christ) having offered one sacrifice for sins, sat down in perpetuity at [the] right hand of God, (job complete)... ... One sacrifice for sins, forever. That's the truth at no cost to you.

        July 13, 2012 at 1:03 am |
    • Dianne Burns

      and then people will say lions and wolves hunt,... but the thing is most hunters kill the strongest and healthiest of the herd ,the ones needed to breed. ,just trophy hunting for the rack. while animals like lions and wolves, the true hunters who go after their prey and not hide in a tree with a gun, usually go after sick, weak animals and getting rid of the unfit animals.. so nature will take it course of the survival of the strongest and fittest as it is meant to be.

      July 8, 2012 at 12:37 am |
      • Guest

        Wolves and lions use the tools nature gave them–their speed, strength, claws and teeth. Nature gave humans tools too–opposable thumbs, intelligence and cunning. Why should we not be allowed to use what nature provided us to gain an advantage over the prey?

        July 8, 2012 at 12:54 am |
      • ELMER J. FUDD

        Not even 10% of hunters take bucks with the largest racks. A large racked animal doesn't breed any better or worse than a small racked animal.

        July 8, 2012 at 10:18 am |
        • Pathetic

          A larger animal that has lived a life span long enough to develop a full set of antlers implies a more robust physiology which is then passed on to his offspring. I'm not saying all hunters are concerned about the size of antlers, but the ones I know certainly are interested in killing these "prize animals."

          July 9, 2012 at 10:41 am |
  22. lena

    CNN employees! If you followed this conversation, what I was supposed to do? Wait for you to post all these facts and information? Even if you are not vegans, why not challenge your doctors to take about 50 vegans and 50 meat eaters and check their health (I would list all the tests they can do if I knew you are reading this.)? Why not tell people about the veganism among philosophers and scientists? Why not tell people what vegans eat and why they did it? Why not find people who healed themselves from cancer, diabetes, Crohn’s diseases and tell their stories? Why not ask your doctors to research why vegan diet heals and, obviously, the meat-diet makes one sick in a long run? Why not tell people about the environmental impact of Livestock Industry? Why not check why doctors do not advise cancer patients to eat animal products? Why not write about milk which is designed for babies and it has a lot of hormones to make the baby grow faster. (just check why vegans don’t drink milk and ask your doctors to do more research on it). Why our Livestock Industry is paying the pharmaceutical companies and why are they the ones who finance the campaigns that advertise milk and meat? There is so much to talk about especially now when so many people are turning vegan and many will benefit so much from it.

    July 6, 2012 at 4:32 pm |
    • ™©JbJiNg!eŚ®™

      While I can appreciate your individual decision to be vegan and express your comments here, this is not "Vegan National News" aka VNN. This site has and hopefully will continue to present articles on food and food related topics, all food, not just the food you think we should be eating. I am sure there are many other websites you can go to that will focus on your obsession with like minded people...

      July 6, 2012 at 4:40 pm |
    • Primal 4 Life

      As proven to all by your many inaccurate posts, you have nothing to say that matters.

      July 6, 2012 at 5:21 pm |
      • lena

        which one is inaccurate?

        July 6, 2012 at 6:01 pm |
      • sam stone

        primal: and you are nothing but a blowhard. bark, little doggie

        July 6, 2012 at 6:39 pm |
        • Primal 4 Life

          I wonder if I care that you think that? Let's check it out.

          Nope, not a bit.

          NEXT!

          July 6, 2012 at 7:08 pm |
        • sam stone

          back atcha, big mouth

          July 7, 2012 at 3:57 am |
      • lena

        hey Primal, i asked you a question.... can I ask you something else?

        July 6, 2012 at 7:15 pm |
      • lena

        I wish everyone who joined the conversation happiness and all the best! Love and peace!!!!! :)

        July 6, 2012 at 8:06 pm |
        • Guest

          No you don't, you wish everyone who joined the conversation would abandon their free will and live their lives according to your choices.

          You're a very clear example of why so many people react so negatively to the idea of a vegetarian diet. It's not so much the idea that's offensive, it's the way you go about telling them that their values are wrong and yours are right when you have absolutely no moral standing to make such a judgement. Just be a personal example and you'll gain more influence than you ever will with all this preaching.

          July 7, 2012 at 9:07 pm |
    • mark dante

      you need to read about biodynamic agriculture...
      your love affair with insulin is misguided indeed...
      the corn based system you are so proud of is killing not just the america, but the world...
      it saddens me that you are so unaware of evolution and how it effects us today...
      as a primal eater, i would put my cholesterol levels up against yours and back it up with every thing i own...
      the diseases of the autoimmune ilk that you spoke of are prevalent BECAUSE of the diet high in carbs (upside down) and the stresses it puts on our broken immune systems...
      true "meat eaters" meaning those that eat primaly suffer FAR FAR less from the maladies related to inflamation and immune disorders than vegans...
      a human being can live without any carbs at all... they cannot live without protien. and while many civilizations have lived on entirely carcal diets, not a one has ever survived on the slave food you laud.
      again, revisit your high school science books and read up on evolution... that is, if you are indeed out of high school.

      July 6, 2012 at 9:57 pm |
      • mark dante

        lena... would you like to discuss the fact that most hard and soft cell tumors can only consume glycogen? your vegan "diet" is pouring plantfood on the weeds while it hammers your immune system into a limp piece of endive...

        we could also go on forever about the effects of high carb diets on our mitochondria... lets just say it aint good...

        GROK ON!

        July 6, 2012 at 10:01 pm |
        • lena

          "Cancer cells thrive in an acid environment. A meat-based diet is acidic" http://theveganfattie.blogspot.ca/
          you will have to do more research on this topic. i put some links below. We should prevent soft cell tumours in the first place.

          July 7, 2012 at 8:33 pm |
      • lena

        we don't need the protein, we need the amino-acids from the protein. All plant-based foods are protein. The enzymes in plant-based foods is protein, and is necessary for the body. Animal products do not come with enzymes and deprive our body of enzymes, that's why so many people suffer now from allergies and other health problems. We also eat too much dead protein from animal products and this deteriorates our digestive system. Please check these facts, there is plenty of info on that. Can you send the link please were a study was done saying that meat-eaters are healthier? I found that many studies were done on Seventh-day Adventists which concluded that they are much healthier than meat-eaters.

        July 7, 2012 at 1:56 pm |
        • What?

          "All plant based foods are protein." Really? Where did you come up with that?

          "Animal products do not come with enzymes?" Really? Where did you come up with that?

          You could not be more wrong with two statements you made if you said the czar still rules Russia and most birds don't fly.

          You may be acquainted with some of the great philosophers' works, but let me remind you of something that Abraham Lincoln said – "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
          I'm telling you right now, lady, you really should have taken that quote to heart before you made those two statements.

          July 7, 2012 at 4:34 pm |
        • lena

          please research more, i don't have time.. digestive enzymes are also protein and they are destroyed when food is processed.... i just put some links, but you can trace the actual research papers...
          John A. McDougall, M.D.:

          Many people believe than animal foods contain protein that is superior in quality to the protein found in plants. This is a misconception dating back to 1914, when Osborn and Mendel studied the protein requirements of laboratory rats.[11]... Based on these early rat experiments the amino acid pattern found in animal products was declared to be the standard by which to compare the amino acid pattern of vegetable foods. According to this concept, wheat and rice were declared deficient in lysine, and corn was deficient in tryptophan. It has since been shown that the initial premise that animal products supplied the most ideal protein pattern for humans, as it did for rats, was incorrect.... From the chart, it is clear that even single vegetable foods contain more than enough of all amino acids essential for humans.... Furthermore, many investigators have found no improvement by mixing plant foods or supplementing them with amino acid mixtures to make the combined amino acid pattern look more like that of flesh, milk, or eggs.[35-44] ... People have actually lived for long periods of time in excellent health by satisfying their entire nutritional needs with potatoes and water alone.[33] ... Nature has designed vegetable foods to be complete. If people living before the age of modern dietetics had had to worry about achieving the correct protein combinations in their diets, our species would not have survived for these millions of years.10

          http://www.anticancerinfo.co.uk/enzymes.html

          http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/protein.htm

          http://www.naturalnews.com/026909_enzymes_digestive_health.html

          http://www.rawbc.org/articles/enzymes_protein.html

          this article has links to

          July 7, 2012 at 7:08 pm |
        • lena

          we need the amino-acids, not the protein. Protein is the middle man that our body needs to break down to remove the amino acids. The harder the protein is to digest (especially animal protein), the more acid and enzymes we need to digest them. When the body is acidic (all animal protein is acidic), all kinds of health issues start developing over time. http://www.balance-ph-diet.com/

          http://wandahamilton50.com/top-10-acid-alkaline-food-myths-and-facts-you-need-to-know/

          Russian hematologists found out that acidic food changes the red blood cells electrical charge from negative to positive and they start clotting to each other. This is done with the help of Here are some health related issues: http://quizlet.com/2162581/disorders-of-the-red-blood-cells-and-coagulation-disorders-flash-cards/ this is very easy to proof if a hematologyst will compare the blood of vegans verses meat-eaters http://www.dolmaonline.com/sdp/1078343/4/pd-5194846/7357396-2097690/MDI_One_Drop_of_Blood_Detector_Light-weight_high-s.html

          July 7, 2012 at 7:34 pm |
        • lena

          cancer cells develop in a non-oxygenated environment, when red blood cells clot and can't bring enough oxygen and nutrients to the cells – a cell can be healthy only when it has adequate oxygen and blood. "Cancer begins with damaged genes. Initiation occurs when the DNA in a normal cell is damaged. Turn cancer off by avoiding animal protein; this means avoiding meat, eggs, dairy and fish (the omega oils are destroyed in fish while cooking)"

          http://www.stopcancer.com/ottolecture.htm

          epidemic.http://www.holisticlocal.com/articles/view/800/Cancer-Turn+It+On+Or+or+Turn+It+Off

          "Meat protein is difficult to digest and requires a lot of digestive enzymes: http://pathology.jhu.edu/pc/news2008.php

          July 7, 2012 at 8:23 pm |
        • What?

          Lena,

          If you don't get anything else out of all this, try to get this – every enzyme is a protein. Regardless of what the enzyme does, where it comes from, or where it goes, it's a protein. And while we're on the subject of proteins . . . you typically don't find just a bunch of 'loose' amino acids "laying around" in any food product – either plant or animal in origin. So you see, you pretty much have to eat PROTEIN to get to the AMINO ACIDS.

          You know, I can find nutrition and biochemical textbooks to refute nearly everything you've said here, but – just to put it bluntly – you're not worth the effort. You talk about having an "open mind", but you are one of, if not THE, most closed-minded person who has responded in this entire string of almost 1400 comments as I type this.

          I have more physiological chemistry and biochemistry than you will ever dream of taking – I won't say 'could' take, because I don't know you and won't resort to that kind of personal attack. However, some of your sources are pure quackery, but you're so blinded by what YOU want that you can't see that.

          July 7, 2012 at 10:51 pm |
        • lena

          how come after so many year on a vegan diet i'm still alive and my immune system is stronger than ever? i don't take any suplements. I really want to know. I would even be happy to send you a picture of me and my children so you can see that we are very ok, physically and mentally. Please explain.

          July 7, 2012 at 11:07 pm |
        • lena

          i also said that enzymes are protein and they are killed during cooking. Fruits and Vegetables are high in Enzymes:

          http://www.livestrong.com/article/320914-fruits-vegetables-high-in-enzymes/

          July 7, 2012 at 11:13 pm |
        • lena

          please try to read everything, I also said that our digestive system has to break down the protein to remove the amino-acids. The harder the protein is to break down, the more damage we do to our digestive organs and it also makes the body acidic. Usually, the protein that is harder to digest does not come with enzymes. The pancreas of a diabetic can start working better in a week if on a vegan diet. Please try if you are a doctor and know anyone with diabetes. Here is a good way to plan a vegan diet: http://www.21daykickstart.org/

          July 7, 2012 at 11:18 pm |
        • lena

          I want to say that we need more research on a vegan diet and why a human body can survive on it if there is so much contradiction

          July 7, 2012 at 11:20 pm |
        • What?

          I asked earlier, but it may be so far down you haven't seen it – What kind of starches do you eat? Do you eat any pasta at all?

          July 7, 2012 at 11:23 pm |
        • lena

          here is a good documentary that shows how all kinds of diabetes were healed in only a month on a plant based diet:
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFXMRbV6UPM If you don't believe, pursue your colleges to research further.

          July 7, 2012 at 11:24 pm |
        • lena

          not much at all and I eat very little, i don't eat tofu or soy milk anymore. I can't eat overly processed foods, I feel how it dries my body, not used to it animore. My diet is mostly raw, but i eat quinoa, hemp, flax seeds and things like that. I don't eat rice and I eat only a small amount of what I used to eat. I guess I use foods packed with nutrients and my body gets everything fast and with no much energy that's why I don't need to eat much and i don't loose weight. Not too many people believe I have grown up children. I do a lot of mental (my profession requires it) and physical work. I don't have time for sports, and yet I'm in shape.

          July 7, 2012 at 11:48 pm |
        • lena

          I'm just trying to say that no one will ever think that I'm on such diet

          July 7, 2012 at 11:56 pm |
      • Primal 4 Life

        Outstanding post. I'm with ya 100%. Tired many things including the rave diet, which is essentially vegetarian, and it wasn't until the Primal Blueprint that things began to go my way. I dropped 45 pounds, without effort, my blood work returned to normal as well as my BP. This allowed me to leave the meds behind and my doctor had no problem taking me off of them. I have to energy of my early 20's.

        I feel so good now I wish I had known about this years ago.

        July 9, 2012 at 10:42 am |
    • Guest

      Ugh, are you this sanctimonius in real life? If you're half as insufferable offline as you are here, I don't know how anyone could stand you. Do you preach at people constantly? Come up for air!

      July 6, 2012 at 11:36 pm |
      • lena

        I would come up for air, why not.

        July 9, 2012 at 1:15 pm |
    • scott

      lena is so far out in left field on so many issues, i just had to respond. there is strong evidence backed by leading anthrpologists that the beginning of successful hunting and meat eating lead directly to the fairly rapid development of the hominid brain leading to our present state of brain development. the energy to facilitate brain development just was not there with a plant diet. over half of the land on this planet cannot be farmed for crops because of limitations due to topography, water availability or suboptimal soils. what can be grown on this land are grass fed cattle or wild animals. wild meat contains essentil fatty acids that tame meat and vegetables just cannot supply, vegan diets can cause deficiencies of many things, most notable being vitamins B12, K and D and iron . the most important of these is B12. in developing infants a deficiency of B 12 can cause neural tube defects – serious central nervous system abnormalities. in growing children especially in the first 2 or 3 years of life when brain development is most rapid, B 12 deficiency causes problems with decreased myelin formation and with the formation of the millions of synapses necessary for maximum brain development.. in vegan children this results in poorer cognitive abilities compared with other children.
      vegans/vegetarians like to tout there superiority morally over those of us who eat meat, especially those of us who hunt our own. i like to point out to them that their huge fields of lettuce and broccoli have resulted in the deaths of entire ecosystems to create those fields. their response is usually that the animals and insects on that land just move next door when replaced by non-wild vegetables. they do not realize, as do those of us who have truly studied wildlife as part of our hunting tradition, that every acre of land, espacially in its natural state, has a carrying capacity. only so many organisms, plant and animal, can inhabit and survive on each piece of land. therefore,no one, not even a vegan can eat and live without sacrificing some other life form. what is better? someone who hunts, removes a few free healthy animals every year, leaving behind a healthy population in balance with what the land can provide. or a vegan or vegetarian who completely changes nature and causes the demise of virtually evey living thing inhabiting that piece of land.

      July 7, 2012 at 3:47 pm |
      • lena

        here is some info about the essential fatty acids and how they are destroyed with cooking and processing and how nuts and seeds can be a better sources (again, please do more research) http://www.electroherbalism.com/Naturopathy/Therapies/Diet/FatsandOils/index.htm As for what anthropologists concluded, it is just a theory and because we don't know for sure, we can't say there couldn't have been a better way for us to evolve. I don't know if you believe in God, but all the scriptures tell us that humans were supposed to eat plant-based foods. check Genesis 1:29 and wonder why Buddha didn't let his disciples to eat meat (it turns out their brain connection is much better than ours): http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/mindfulness-meditation-improves-connections-in-the-brain-201104082253

        July 7, 2012 at 8:10 pm |
    • Kat Kinsman

      We present a lot of opinions from a lot of people - hunters, vegans, farmers, chefs, activists. They'll all bring their own point of view to it. Just because we're presenting one side of an argument at some point doesn't mean we've neglected the other.

      Conversation and differing viewpoints are a *good* thing.

      July 11, 2012 at 12:21 am |
  23. lena

    Are you a cnn employee? you remember too much for some reason....

    July 6, 2012 at 4:03 pm |
  24. lena

    what about BBC?

    July 6, 2012 at 3:29 pm |
  25. Pathetic

    This is just really too low - nobody should take another's online ID. Immature, childish, unreal. Lena, the real Lena, sorry for the trolls. There are good folks out there too. Good for you for believing in yourself - ignore the trolls; they're like little kids, having tantrums if someone disagrees with them.

    July 6, 2012 at 3:15 pm |
    • jeepbrah

      "Pathetic" strong white knight, you phaggot.

      July 6, 2012 at 3:46 pm |
      • Pathetic

        jeepbrah, it's funny that you think you can hide behind anonymity. Nothing on the 'Net is anonymous. If I report you to the CNN moderators, your post is linked to your email address ... so guess what? No anonymity for you to hide behind.

        July 9, 2012 at 9:07 am |
    • lena

      sorry Pathetic, the 'lions' started to roar.... :)

      July 6, 2012 at 3:49 pm |
    • mark dante

      i believe the first "tantrum" we witnessed in this thread was lena's up on top...

      July 6, 2012 at 10:02 pm |
      • lena

        it wasn't a tantrum actually, I just feel so much pain for the animals and of course I wanted to put as many facts as possible that not too many people know of.... plus, I always wonder why people don't want to change when they can be healthier and not be involved in the causing of so much suffering... I learned a few things though... (it was my first time to participate in such a discussion and i hope is the last :) ) Peace and love to all!!!!!

        July 7, 2012 at 1:48 pm |
  26. lena

    you are what you eat. I will never eat flesh....

    July 6, 2012 at 3:08 pm |
    • mark dante

      when one says, "you are what you eat" and then says "i would never eat flesh"

      what is one trying to say? that they are a vegetable... maybe a bean... or some sorghum...

      the two statements should probably not been linked together in such a way...

      you are what you eat... i am flesh and bone...

      July 6, 2012 at 10:04 pm |
  27. lena

    (real Lena) someone took my name to post his comment... if you can only see how low of a human being you are... I guess this is my last post. i just hope you are not a cnn employee...

    July 6, 2012 at 3:06 pm |
  28. lena

    'This is dreadful! Not the suffering and death of the animals, but that people suppress in themselves, unnecessarily, the highest spiritual capacity – that of sympathy and pity towards living creatures... " Leo Tolstoy (Tolstoy was introduced and became a vegetarian, all on the same day.) http://veg.ca/content/view/525/113/

    July 6, 2012 at 2:23 pm |
    • Vegan for Life!

      Lena, could you be quiet already?

      There is a saying annoying opinion-preachers like you should digest: "I'll eat my opinion, you can eat yours."

      You give vegans/vegetarians/whatever a bad wrap. You denounce the morals of those who eat meat by pushing your own ideals forward.

      July 6, 2012 at 2:29 pm |
      • Pathetic

        Everybody pushes their ideals; what's the big deal? She has a right to her opinion, as does everyone else on this board.

        July 6, 2012 at 3:17 pm |
      • lena

        Vegan for Life, if someone didn't push their ideas, we would still have slavery and guillotine... Let the civilization progress; don't drag it behind by shutting up people

        July 6, 2012 at 3:46 pm |
        • Primal 4 Life

          Too bad what you preach is actually backwards and makes people sick in the long run. Anybody that tells anyone to eat grains is lying to them and pointing them to a harmful decision. The fact you think otherwise makes it even worse.

          You really should just be a vegan and keep your ignorant pie hole shut about it.

          Shoulder update – just checked it out and it's marinating perfectly. Post you email so I can send you pictures of it.

          July 6, 2012 at 5:04 pm |
  29. lena

    Socrates: Would this habit of eating animals not require that we slaughter animals that we knew as individuals, and in whose eyes we could gaze and see ourselves reflected, only a few hours before our meal?

    Glaucon: This habit would require that of us.

    Socrates: Wouldn't this [knowledge of our role in turning a being into a thing] hinder us in achieving happiness?

    Glaucon: It could so hinder us in our quest for happiness.

    Socrates: And, if we pursue this way of living, will we not have need to visit the doctor more often?

    Glaucon: We would have such need.

    Socrates: If we pursue our habit of eating animals, and if our neighbor follows a similar path, will we not have need to go to war against our neighbor to secure greater pasturage, because ours will not be enough to sustain us, and our neighbor will have a similar need to wage war on us for the same reason?

    Glaucon: We would be so compelled.

    Socrates: Would not these facts prevent us from achieving happiness, and therefore the conditions necessary to the building of a just society, if we pursue a desire to eat animals?

    Glaucon: Yes, they would so prevent us.

    July 6, 2012 at 2:15 pm |
    • mark dante

      me thinks though doth protest too much...

      and the quotes do you nothing at all...

      it is like arguing with a child...

      July 6, 2012 at 10:06 pm |
  30. Matt

    HARHARR.... one nation – under ... ecucated.

    Militant vegans make every other group of weirdos look intelligent. Everytime.

    July 6, 2012 at 6:39 am |
    • sam stone

      "ecucated"?

      July 6, 2012 at 7:19 am |
    • lena

      i'm sure matt that you are so educated that there is no room for more.... you must be perfect...

      July 6, 2012 at 9:12 am |
      • ONTHunter

        This coming from the most closed minded person in this discussion. You're such a hypocrite lena.

        July 6, 2012 at 11:08 am |
        • Primal 4 Life

          Agreed! There is simply no doubt about.

          July 6, 2012 at 12:00 pm |
        • InvasiveSpecies

          Good lands, ONTHunter, cut her some slack. Lena has a right to express her opinions and she's obviously researched her topics. I know feelings run high about these topics, but name calling and finger pointing aren't going to help us learn from each other. I'm not a hunter, but you've made some valid points for hunting, while Lena's made some valid points for the vegan lifestyle. We should all lighten up a bit here.

          July 6, 2012 at 12:29 pm |
        • What?

          @ Invasive Species

          You, too, have some very valid points.

          "Lena", "Mike", "Peteyroo" and a couple of others here obviously – in their own minds – form the collective 'conscience' for the U.S. Since they are omniscient – again, in their own minds – they know better than anybody else what is "ethical" and what is "unethical" and have made a habit of telling us that in this string. "To each his own" and "live and let live" are foreign concepts to them.

          And vegans wonder why they get a "bad name". When one constantly 'forces' their beliefs on others who don't share those same beliefs, they don't deserve any "slack".

          July 6, 2012 at 12:52 pm |
        • InvasiveSpecies

          @What? That, by the way, is a great name to post with! And I like your post, thank you. But, I think it's both sides. People who hunt and eat meat can be quite passionate (and sometimes rude) about their beliefs too. I think for the vegans, they are so passionate about animal welfare (which is a great thing), that it's difficult for them to understand how anyone can appear to be anti-animal welfare. It's like the pro-lifers - if you believe a terrible wrong is being perpetrated, it's difficult not to preach and shout about it. And I'm not saying hunters are in any way anti-animal welfare, but from a vegan standpoint, it can seem so. You truly get dogmatic people on both sides. Probably none of us has the answers, but, by golly, we each think we do, LOL. And I get upset when I see people stereotyping each other: "all hunters are dumb rednecks," "all vegans are nuts." That's a shame and leads nowhere.

          July 6, 2012 at 2:02 pm |
        • ONTHunter

          @InvasiveSpecies...I will not cut Lena any slack. I have no problem with people expressing an opinion and offering alternative thoughts. In fact, I encourage it and listen with open ears and an open mind. However, what I do not stand for is other people telling me I am barbaric, inhumane, mentally inferior etc. She has dug herself a trench with her double speak, now she can claw her way out.

          July 11, 2012 at 7:36 pm |
      • lena

        I am not saying i'm perfect and whenever I hear a message, I always check if the messanger is right or will i improve if i change.... I don't close my ears just because i think i'm right and i know everyting.

        July 6, 2012 at 2:20 pm |
      • lena

        here is a good example of what open mindness means 'Tolstoy was introduced and became a vegetarian, all on the same day. With only one conversation.

        It must take a special kind of intelligence to change one's life so suddenly. The confrontation and reversal of personal hypocrisies can be harrowing, especially if the information is coming from someone who is less famous, of lower status, and hitherto unknown. Yet, Leo Nikolaevich Tolstoy was one such man with proven ability to hear an argument, accept it, and change his entire life to meet his new knowledge. Instantly. '

        July 6, 2012 at 2:22 pm |
    • InvasiveSpecies

      Matt, any zealot, be they a vegan, or, indeed, a hunter, can make their "home team" look bad. Militant hunters can be just as offensive as any other such group.

      July 6, 2012 at 12:35 pm |
      • InvasiveSpecies

        Well, this dang post refuses to land in the right spot! Sorry for the duplication, all.

        July 6, 2012 at 12:36 pm |
    • InvasiveSpecies

      Matt, any zealot, be they a vegan, or, indeed, a hunter, can make their "home team" look bad. Militant hunters can be just as offensive as any other such group.

      July 6, 2012 at 12:35 pm |
  31. kellory

    Todd, you are in error.
    "Todd
    Hunting has pretty much no validity as a realistic food source. According to Fish and Game, the average success rate for deer hunters is around 25%. That's for ONE animal, in an entire season. Once you've added up the cost of weapon, ammunition, supplies, clothing, permits...and taken into account the fairly low likelihood you'll actually bag anything? Yeah. It's silly to think hunting could supply the bulk of anyone's diet. Hunting is a sporting pursuit, Once you've added up the cost of weapon, ammunition, supplies, clothing, permits.

    Point 1)According to Fish and Game, the average success rate for deer hunters is around 25% First,This will vary widely depending upon where you hunt. second, Every hunter I know has a much higher success rate. Your numbers include every weekend warrior who picks up a weapon for the opening day of deer gun season each year, and does no other hunting activity any other time. I would not expect much success from them. Real hunter practice year round, do the leg work, scout the trails, and learn everything they can about the prey, the terrain, the food sources, ect. Many hunters are successful enough, to donate meat to the Hunters Against Hunger program, and food pantries.
    And this part" Once you've added up the cost of weapon, ammunition, supplies, clothing, permits." Some of this is a real cost, some is not. I still carry the shotgun my Grand Father carried. I have no need of a new one each hunting season. Nor does anyone else. Permits do cost money, and supplies cost about the same if I am eating at home or in the field, and clothing lasts for many seasons. My hunting coat is more than 15 years old.

    Now the big one, AMMO! I pay more than $3 DOLLARS for one sabot round for my 12ga. shotgun. I know others pay less, but I only use the good stuff. and that breaks down to almost 35cent per pound on an average 100 pounds of meat. I could probably get my cost per pound down to 25 cents, if I would use less accurate ammo. Now, keep in mind, my cost could DOUBLE if I needed TWO rounds, but most times ONE is all I need.

    "just be honest about it" I could not be more honest than hunting. There is no sliding scale, no affirmative action, no work quotas, no intermediaries. Just my effort, my skills, my knowledge, and my aim. And I feed my family (and others) with the results. I am a HUNTER, and damn proud of it.

    July 5, 2012 at 6:31 pm |
    • Arthur of Alaska

      I agree with your general statement of the cost of subsistence hunting. I have large investments in firearms and boats and nets. but in rural Alaska the relative cost of commercial foods is much higher and the availability of game is also much higher. So, to a degree the equation is specific to location. Added in should be the cost of enjoying the out of doors and the involvement of family in processing the meat. This learning experience alone justifies the expenditure. My family knows where meat comes from and knows what is involved in processing meat from field to table.

      February 9, 2014 at 6:37 pm |
  32. lena

    'A global shift towards a vegan diet is vital to save the world from hunger, fuel poverty and the worst impacts of climate change' – http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jun/02/un-report-meat-free-diet

    July 5, 2012 at 1:40 pm |
    • Primal 4 Life

      LMAO absolute rubbish. Not a shred of truth to that at all. It cracks me up that you think you are more evolved and now smarter than mother nature. It's actually pathetic, and makes you far more arrogant than I have even been. But whatever, do what you must, all the time knowing you will never succeed.

      July 5, 2012 at 9:09 pm |
      • lena

        i can't believe that there are people thinking that teaching our children and psychos how to shoot is an ok idea. Dear, you might be 'accidentally' mistaken for a dear, or someone's girlfriend will be accidentally 'shot' because she 'accidentally' doesn't love the shooter anymore... Don't put evil thoughts and teach evil things our next generation. Didn't you have enough of wars, don't we still enough bloodsuckers who enjoy attacking and killing others in wars pretending it's in the name of their country and their family.... If you were a normal human being, you would think 'how come there are more and more vegans' and how can they survive if it goes against what most people think. Let me try and see – trust me, you won't die. Teach your children something beautiful. Bring them to a slaughterhouse and ask if they want a plate of vegan food or flesh.... Unless you tell them that it is the only way they can survive and brainwash them as someone else brainwashed you, they will never eat meat.

        July 6, 2012 at 9:09 am |
        • Primal 4 Life

          "If I were normal..."

          Honey, you a an absolute loon. Bat crap crazy in fact. You are not normal, and therefor have no business whatsoever deeming what is, and what is not normal. Your holier than thou attitude is as pathetic as it gets. You have no concept of freedom whatsoever. You have a very narrow and closed mind. You let your false sense of morality be your guide and you willingly attempt to foist those misguided beliefs on others. Good people, do not do those things, period. You are not good people, end of story.

          Can't wait to cook the 15 pound beef shoulder tomorrow in your honor, of yes, it will be dedicated to you. 9 hours of slow roasted perfection, served to people who will leave with big fat smiles on their faces.

          July 6, 2012 at 10:55 am |
        • ONTHunter

          So a gun is going to turn an otherwise mentally stable, non violent person into a blood thirsty wife shooting psychopath?? Thats like saying that cars cause drunk drivers. Studies have shown that children that are involved in the outdoors (fishing and hunting) are 80% less likely to become criminals in adulthood.

          I will teach my kids to respect the land that we live on. They will know how to shoot, know what wild plants are edible, and they will know basic survival skills. Perhaps you should be teaching your kids about the outdoors and how mother nature works. Perhaps they will have a new found respect for the life they have been given. Teach them that the grocery store is not the only place to get food (plant or meat). I'm not saying take them hunting, its not for everybody. But a weekly hike in the woods can really bring peace to the soul, and coming home with a basket of fresh berries is a great treat.

          July 6, 2012 at 11:19 am |
        • lena

          Primal4live and oldhunter, i would never impose my believe if i didn’t feel sorry for the animals who can’t speak for themselves. I can’t believe we, humans, are still torturing and killing them. This is not what humane means (check the meaning of humane) It is also proven that anyone can benefit from a vegan diet. I said what you didn’t want to hear, and now is time for you to revenge. I won’t be surprised if you have the power to drag a few more people to join you….. maybe more than a few. If you and many like you were different, we wouldn’t have killed Jesus, or run after Buddha or prophet Mohamed and other great Beings. We really don’t want to hear anything that makes us change and loose our comfort. This is what we were meant to eat to have a peaceful planet and be healthy: Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. – Genesis 1:29

          July 6, 2012 at 1:58 pm |
        • Primal 4 Life

          Look lena you are wrong, period. The ONLY reason you are vegan is to assuage your feelings of guilt, period. It is a proven fact that the hunter gather way of eating is superior to any other. It simply cannot be denied. You are not smarter than mother nature. You never will be smarter than mother nature. You are not evolving at all even though you think you are.

          Thankfully at the end of the day you are nobody just like the rest of us and your views will NEVER become the way.

          July 6, 2012 at 5:12 pm |
  33. lena

    It is the position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada that appropriately planned vegetarian diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12826028

    July 5, 2012 at 1:16 pm |
  34. AJ

    I wonder if all the vegans freaking out about killing deer realize how many animals are killed to protect and harvest the soybean crops that their tofu comes from...

    Deer population management goes hand-in-hand with crop farming.

    July 5, 2012 at 10:55 am |
    • lena

      80% of soy and 60% of the grain is fed to animals. It takes about 14 kg of plant protein to produce 1 kg of meat. Growing so much grain requires a lot of tillable land and we use the one near forests (we actually cut the forests to expand our land). Of course the deers will come and eat your crop. A vegan diet requires 7 times less land than a meat-based diet.
      http://veg.ca/content/view/133/111/ We souldn't destroy their habitat....

      July 5, 2012 at 11:05 am |
      • AJ

        Oh lena... again you know nothing about farming or life in rural areas.

        You are misled about how crop-farming actually works. You cannot grow the same crop year after year on the same ground, crops need to be rotated and summer-fallowed. Why not try actually talking to some farmers/ranchers, versus getting your information spoon-fed to you off of vegan websites?

        First of all, buy grass-fed meat. Corn isn't good for the cows OR the people that eat them: Corn-fed cattle are more prone to infection and disease because they physiologically designed to eat grass, not grain; it's harder on their bodies to eat grain. Pasture-raised livestock are leaner and higher in Omega-3s; so the meat is healthier.

        Also, crops destroy natural habitat for wild animals; where pasture land provides homes/habitat for wild animals. Pasture land is is typically land unfit for farming crops (too hilly, too sandy, too rocky, etc.)

        Many smaller independant farmers also do crop-animal rotation. For example, when a fiend is cut, they'll move livestock onto it for a few months. If cattle moved on to stubble need supplemental feed, they get hay, most of which is cut from ditches and waterways, not "taking up land that could be used for crops". (And also helps with the county budget, as they don't have to mow the ditches as often.)

        Cattle grazing is actually great for the soil.

        And a diet that includes meat in moderation actually uses LESS LAND than a vegan diet.

        July 5, 2012 at 11:24 am |
    • AJ

      First of all, buy grass-fed meat. Corn isn't good for the cows OR the people that eat them: Corn-fed cattle are more prone to infection and disease because they physiologically designed to eat grass, not grain; it's harder on their bodies to eat grain. Pasture-raised livestock are leaner and higher in Omega-3s; so the meat is healthier.

      Also, crops destroy natural habitat for wild animals; where pasture land provides habitat for wild animals. Pasture land is is typically land unfit for farming crops.

      Many smaller independant farmers also do crop-animal rotation. For example, when a field is cut, they'll move livestock onto it for a few months. If livestock moved on to stubble need supplemental feed, they get hay, most of which is cut from ditches and waterways, not "taking up land that could be used for crops".

      Cattle grazing is actually great for the soil.

      And you cannot grow the same crop year after year on the same ground, crops need to be rotated and summer-fallowed.

      A diet that includes meat in moderation actually uses LESS LAND than a vegan diet.

      July 5, 2012 at 11:34 am |
      • What?

        Part of what you said is dead-on, but part of it is totally wrong.

        Know a lot about ruminant nutrition, do you? And you've obviously spent many days in a hayfield – yes, hay"field" – putting up hay, haven't you?

        July 5, 2012 at 12:03 pm |
        • AJ

          Care to elaborate on what you think is "wrong" in my post?

          July 5, 2012 at 12:08 pm |
        • What?

          Cows have no problem digesting grain – as long as they aren't given too much of it. "Eating grain" in-and-of-itself does not make them 'sick'.

          Most hay is not produced from ditches and waterways. Some of it is, but it is a small percentage of the whole. Hay may be produced from forage pastures that are allowed to grow, ungrazed, for an extended period of time, but it is frequently produced from land set aside specifically for producing hay. Some of this land is unfit for growing other crops, while some of it would be quite well-suited to crop production.

          And – before you ask – at one point during my years of working with hay I put up over 6000 bales in a period of 3 weeks (working 5 days a week), so, yes, I do know what I'm talking about.

          July 5, 2012 at 12:21 pm |
        • AJ

          Are you trying to say people don't cut & bale the ditches and waterways for animal food?
          Yes, sometimes people do grow a field of hay. I didn't say nobody ever grew hay; I said there were other ways of getting it. And growing hay 1 year on a field will usually last the farmer a couple years, especially if they keep their livestock on pasture the majority of the time.

          When we did occasionally grow a field specifically for cutting & baling, it was usually alfalfa and we didn't grow it every year. We got plenty of hay from the ditches and waterways along our cropland to feed/supplement our livestock and horses when they weren't pastured.

          July 5, 2012 at 12:23 pm |
        • What?

          Not everybody has the "ditches" and "waterways" to produce even a quarter of the hay they need. Some don't have either of these. If you will re-read my response, I specifically stated that "yes, these are sources of hay, but only a small amount". Maybe more so where you live, but I will guarantee you that this is not the case in a large portion of the country.

          July 5, 2012 at 12:28 pm |
        • AJ

          Cows actually do have problems digesting grain (for what it's worth, so do humans!). Their digestive systems aren't equipped to do it. It doesn't make them immediately sickly, but it does cause problems (which would be more evident if the animals grew to older age). Just because something doesn't immediately poison you doesn't mean it's "good"; you can eat McDonalds every day and it won't make you immediately sick, but it will take it's toll over time.

          And it increases rates of e.coli and perpetuates different e.coli strands in cattle. Even switching cattle to grass for a week before slaughtering them for food significantly reduces the e.coli in their systems.

          July 5, 2012 at 12:32 pm |
        • BoddaGetta

          Ditches? Forgive my ignorance, but I doubt that's required to grow hay. My family does a crop rotation every year on our field. This year it is peanuts. Last year corn. A couple of years before that, we grew hay. The field did not have a ditch surrounding it, or trenches between rows of crops. The amount of earth we had to take away for peanuts is enormous, but we only lightly tilled the soil for clay. While it was growing, cattle in the neighboring field would often stick their heads between gaps in the fence to munch on the growing hay.

          A lot of other farmers in my area grew hay, and none of them use this ditch method you're talking about. With the type of grass a typical bale of hay is, I doubt it would grow well with too much water.

          July 5, 2012 at 3:37 pm |
        • BoddaGetta

          AJ

          I think you're searching for the term "corn," not grain. Ruminants cannot live on grain alone, but then again, neither can people. But both of our biochemistries require metabolites and nutritions only grains can give us. Thankfully, our digestion process is less complex. Corn doesn't provide much nutritional value to us or cattle, and too much can upset digestion and overall health.

          July 5, 2012 at 3:43 pm |
      • lena

        the main cause of worldwide land degradation is over-grazing. Land degradation leads to loss of biodiversity:

        http://www.fao.org/fileadmin/templates/lead/pdf/e-conf_05-06_background.pdf

        July 5, 2012 at 1:23 pm |
        • ONTHunter

          So we should kill and eat more animals to prevent this bio-disaster from happening? I'm in!!!

          July 6, 2012 at 11:24 am |
      • lena

        how much is moderation? if we would free up the land from raising livestock and grow feed for them (a vegan uses 7 times less land....) we would be able to affort to rotate our crop and also let our land rest and regain its nutrients naturally.

        July 5, 2012 at 1:28 pm |
        • ONTHunter

          It doesn't matter, either we buy the meat or it will just be exported to someone who will. Your opinion doesn't run the country, the all mighty dollar does.

          July 6, 2012 at 11:27 am |
        • lena

          don't raise, don't kill, don't export.... i'm sure all the people in poor countries don't need your meat.... They need some rice or corn or vegetables that they can get easily if meat eaters wouldn't eat for 10.

          July 6, 2012 at 2:27 pm |
        • ONTHunter

          OK so the farmers who have raised cattle, pigs, chickens, etc for generations are supposed to pack it in and get an office job? And don't say they can start growing crops on their land, because farms that are used for raising animals for slaughter are on average 20% of the size of a crop farm. How are they supposed to make a living?

          July 6, 2012 at 6:23 pm |
  35. Griz

    Great post! Most people will not admit this but sportsman are the number 1 source of funding for wildlife and habitat preservation. Through the The self imposed taxes on hunting, fishing and firearms to joining conservation organization like Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation and Ducks Unlimited Sportsman contribute billions of dollars a year. This money goes to preserve land that benefits all species not just hunt able game. The Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation has saved millions of acres forever in purchase and land trusts and has reintroduced elk back into areas where they were irradiated hundreds of years ago. Keep up the good work and Good Hunting

    July 5, 2012 at 10:04 am |
  36. Mike

    This article is a cute little fantasy, but hunting is not a remotely viable food source for a large percentage of the population, nor is it ethical in any way.

    July 5, 2012 at 9:14 am |
    • AGuest9

      Running them over at night with a car is more ethical? Poisoning them is more ethical? Shooting them with birth control is more ethical? I guess you're not a farmer, either.

      July 5, 2012 at 9:36 am |
      • lena

        why run them over, poison them, shoot them with birth control or hunt them. LEAVE THEM ALONE!!!! just stay away from their flesh... it's no different than yours, why eat it? Is it just because you learned from your ancestors?

        July 5, 2012 at 9:55 am |
        • AJ

          lena, you obviously have zero experience with how it really is to live in rural areas with deer.

          People don't hit deer with their cars on purpose, it isn't a fun experience hitting a deer! People hit deer because deer run out in front of them on the highway.

          Leaving deer alone would have a huge negative impact on food prices. Deer already do OVER $100 MILLION worth of damage to crops each year; if the population was left unchecked, that number would be significantly higher.

          Leaving deer alone would cause them be overpopulation and to die out due to starvation and disease, now THAT is a horrible way to die. And wasteful.
          Not to mention it can also spread diseases for people and their pets; deer ticks spread Lyme disease and more deer means more deer ticks.

          July 5, 2012 at 10:47 am |
        • V_1

          lena.... the analogies you keep using are getting sicker and sicker.

          July 5, 2012 at 11:10 am |
        • lena

          Nature is perfect; it keeps everything in balance as long as humans don't interfere

          July 5, 2012 at 11:12 am |
        • lena

          v_1, don't read them ;)

          July 5, 2012 at 11:19 am |
        • AJ

          lena, you're posting on the internet, so you obviously have electricity. And probably a house/apartment. Perhaps a car. You eat food grown from crops. Etc.

          Modern civilization "interferes", period. You are part of that. To "not interfere" is impossible, and to ignore our interference is irresponsible. Nature's way of controlling animal population is with predators; and when predators have been pushed out by humans, we need to do something about that. Re-introducing predators isn't feasible (expensive, establishing populations is difficult, many re-introduced and re-located animals die within the first couple months, etc.), nor do people in suburbia want mountain lions wandering through their backyard.

          July 5, 2012 at 11:30 am |
        • lena

          at least we should interfere as little as possible.... why destroy it so much when we can do something else instead. Of course we can't live in a city without electricity, but we can be vegans. Producing a pound of beef causes far more greenhouse gas emissions and other pollution than driving for 3 hours while leaving all the lights on back home.

          July 5, 2012 at 1:37 pm |
        • Primal 4 Life

          In one post lena claims mother nature is perfect, however, in every other she claims to be superior in knowledge then mother nature.

          All you can do is laugh.

          July 6, 2012 at 5:16 pm |
        • Amused

          "lena
          at least we should interfere as little as possible.... why destroy it so much when we can do something else instead. Of course we can't live in a city without electricity, but we can be vegans. Producing a pound of beef causes far more greenhouse gas emissions and other pollution than driving for 3 hours while leaving all the lights on back home.

          July 5, 2012 at 1:37 pm"

          I challenge you to breath in the exhaust of the most fuel economic car for three hours and IF you're still alive try the same thing with that pound of beef and see how things turn out. I've never seen the caution on a package of beef that said, "Warning, exhalation of beef exhaust may be hazardous to your health. Only use in well ventilated area!"

          December 1, 2012 at 12:10 am |
    • Truth™@Mike

      What in your hunting experience has caused you to draw this conclusion? Have you even ever been in the woods? Or are you basically taking the position of "I have never done this activity, but I am nonetheless a self proclaimed expert on it"...

      July 5, 2012 at 10:03 am |
    • ONTHunter

      Why bring up the ethics debate again?? Why do vegetarians feel the need to put little comments out there to suit there agenda?? You are right, there is not enough wild game out there to sustain everyone. I think we have already covered the "ethics" topic, so I won't bother with a rebuttal.

      July 5, 2012 at 5:19 pm |
  37. RK

    If 7 billion people in this planet join the hunt, there would be no animals left. We now have to hunt each other which would amount to "You know what". The real question is : When men were hunter gatherers thousands of years ago eating meat made a lot of sense. It was each man for himself. Today when you have a complex civilization with a large population, may be giving up meat may be the best thing to do.

    July 5, 2012 at 7:40 am |
    • nottolate

      You give it up. Me, i'll eat as much as I can.

      July 5, 2012 at 7:49 am |
      • lena

        have you asked yourself why? Maybe you will find a lot of c…. unpleasant things about yourself – arrogance; shallowness; unwillingness to accept something new that goes against your desires to be comfortable even it is on the expense of others; too much ego to accept the fact that you might be wrong; too selfish; too stubborn; or not intelligent enough to grasp the concept and look into it further…. At least half of the sick people in hospitals would be healed if they were fed a vegan diet and if there were less peopl like you in the medical field who don't even want to hear about it.

        July 5, 2012 at 9:47 am |
        • really????????

          I find your comments about being arrogant and unwilling to accept that you are wrong funny. Anytime a vegan starts speaking about their food choices I notice the same tendencies in them...

          As for healing half the people in hospitals by switching them to a vegan diet, can you give me some peer reviewed proof of this that is undisputed? some studies indicate meat may be bad for you, but other studies indicate that meat is an essential part of our diets, especially for children that are growing and need plenty of protein. I've not heard about any study that says you will heal half the people in hospitals by limiting their diets...please tell me where I can find this information?!??

          July 5, 2012 at 10:09 am |
        • lena

          we are also told that milk is a good source of calcium, but it turns out it causes osteoporosis instead. "Every time you consume milk you erode bone-making cells, increasing the risk of osteoporosis." http://www.yourmedicaldetective.com/public/Milk_Revealed_As_Main_Cause_Of_Osteoporosis_in_New_Book.cfm
          We researched only the meat-based diet and tried to make the best of it. There is plenty of information of the benefits of a vegan diet verses a meat diet on the web. A vegan diet comes with all the nutrients a meat-diet has and more. Of course, only recent studies show that. Here is a good article about B12 http://www.naturalnews.com/029531_vitamin_B12_vegan.html

          July 5, 2012 at 10:36 am |
        • What?

          @ lena

          You haven't cited anything 'reputable' in your B12 reference. This is informaton pulled by a writer from an "opinion piece" written by a chiropractor – a group who is well-known for their in-depth nutritional knowledge.

          There are B12 "pre-cursors" found in plants, but no research has yet shown, to my knowledge, than either bacteria in the body or enzymes in the human body can successfully convert these to a form that will function as B12.

          If you're so convinced that this is true, why don't you go ahead and do it, and get back to us on how that worked out for you? Cut out any 'supplements' you may be taking, don't use any fortified or enriched flour (or any products that contain them), and no yeast extract of any kind. Get back to us in 30 days and let us know you're doing. "Put your money where your mouth is", if you believe this as strongly as you talk like you do.

          July 5, 2012 at 11:57 am |
        • anthonymccartney

          Lena,

          I once read on the internet that Ben Franklin once said not to believe everything you read on the internet.

          July 5, 2012 at 12:01 pm |
        • Seriously?

          yourmedicaldetective.com & naturalnews.com are not peer reviewed science information. In fact, I've read articles on natural news that cherry pick phrases to back themselves up while ignoring what the cited study actually concluded was safe (which obviously was not what they wanted to hear and relay). I've even emailed them pointing it out and their editors just responded with a we don't write the articles so we won't edit out the information. Find a real scientific article instead of these online sources written by people who don't even understand the scientific method much less have the knowledge to recommend a healthy lifestyle other than what they *think* might be good for you.

          July 5, 2012 at 12:20 pm |
        • lena

          My daughter (21 years old now) and I have been vegans for more than 7 years and we didn't take any vitamins and so far we are ok. I don't drink soy milk or fortified breads – my food includes mostly simple foods prepared at home. During these years I didn’t get sick and I have a strong immune system (I also know it from a hematologist. Btw, I wish you could see the red and white blood cells of a meat eater compared to a vegan… just by looking at the clotted red cells of a meat eater one can see clearly than not much of oxygen, B12 and other vitamins reach the cells)

          I also feel more energetic than ever and most women my age (and look younger of course). My daughter didn't take vitamins after she did her own research on a vegan diet and concluded that it is not necessary to have supplements if you eat correctly – simple, nutritional foods. I’m not saying though people shouldn’t take vitamins. If you’re thinking that you are going to get sick if you don’t take them, you should, otherwise you will become sick, even if you are a meat eater.

          July 5, 2012 at 2:12 pm |
        • lena

          she also travelled the world for 1 year on a vegan diet and no vitamins. She went to Nepal, India, Asia, Russia, Italy.... it is really not that hard to be vegan

          July 5, 2012 at 4:30 pm |
        • ONTHunter

          Thats a pretty good self description lena.

          I could say the same thing to you about hunting. Why not try it? Why not see what it feels like to provide for your family without having to go to the grocery store? Scared you might learn something new? Scared you might enjoy it? Too ignorant to see other people's point of view?? This is exactly why no one respects what you say. Even your fellow vegans are disagreeing with you.

          July 5, 2012 at 5:22 pm |
        • What?

          Lena, what kind of starches do yo eat? Do you eat pasta?

          July 6, 2012 at 12:19 pm |
    • sam stone

      either giving it up or drastically reducing consumption

      July 5, 2012 at 7:59 am |
      • ONTHunter

        Sam, I agree, the amount of meat being consumed is unnecessary to sustain human life. A well balanced diet that includes a moderate portion of meat is not only going to improve health, but improve the food market as a whole. People buy processed food because it is cheap. If people ate less fresh meat, the demand would fall and so would the prices, thus making better food available to a broader market. Its win win for everyone!

        July 5, 2012 at 9:27 am |
        • sam stone

          i agree

          July 5, 2012 at 9:42 am |
        • V_1

          glad to see we're on the same page.
          V_1, AB hunter :)

          July 5, 2012 at 1:17 pm |
    • BoddaGetta

      Actually, there would be enough. There are plenty of certain animals. I know that in my state, white-tailed deer outnumber humans almost 3-1, and I don't live in a sparsley populated area.

      Zealous vegans [not all vegans] drive me, a growth biologist, nuts. My cousin was one of those health nuts, and she would constantly link me sources with no authoritative figure in the "study." Most often, the articles [like the ones linked in replies below] used one of the No.1 no-nos in general scientific statistis–they always made a correlation/causation basis to their conclusion. NEVER do this. It's the equivilent of noticing a lineup of obese people are all wearing khaki shorts. Therefore, since they are all wearing the same shorts, those shorts must cause obesity. Similar to that cat litter scare story the other day.

      Our brains take up the majority of our metabolism. You can get the proteins needed for the brain from vegetation, however, the amount we'd need is double to triple the amount a full-grown, 1500lb cow would need.

      I would take zealous vegans [again, I'm saying out-of-the-norm. Many people don't offend me with their diet choices, so long as it's not baseless logic] more seriously if they linked me proof of their reasoning from cites like NCBI.gov, or a .edu study with a detailed observational study and a wide sample size. The lack of biochemistry knowledge of some "nutritionists" that advise people such as raw food eaters is appalling.

      July 5, 2012 at 3:15 pm |
    • Primal 4 Life

      Nope, and I won't even consider it. They could make it illegal and I would still do it. NOTHING will ever change that fact.

      July 6, 2012 at 5:17 pm |
  38. DuluthMN

    How about "it's your decision so make it and enjoy it". What's the point of living your life according to the opinions of nut job snobbly types? Let the PETA crowd get back to searching for where they left their brains.

    July 5, 2012 at 7:13 am |
    • sam stone

      "What's the point of living your life according to the opinions of nut job snobbly types?"

      There is none.

      July 5, 2012 at 8:52 am |
  39. Eman de Riuqer

    Congrats, Rationalization Woman... you're still killing animals, you're still adversely impacting the environment, and you've managed to convince yourself that you're somehow more holy than everyone else. Great job!

    The delusional fantasy that you're not harming the environment dove-tails nicely with the smugness of someone who thinks she is "self-sufficient". Only problem is, you're not. Did you build the gun you used to shoot whatever it is you ate? Did you forge the knife you gutted the animals with yourself, after discovering iron without being told what it was, how to find and extract it, how to make a fire with no tools made by anyone else? Didn't think so.

    As for the notion that it's not harmful to the environment, baloney. The animals you kill are removed from the food-web, resulting in an imbalance, an increase in the population of whatever they were either feeding on or competing for those resources with, which then propagates through the web, doing a little erosion of a sort, all along the way. The fact that you can't see the effect immediately or don't realize you're having one DOESN'T mean it's not happening. If you have any questions, consult Dr. Thomas Malthus. News flash, lady... your hunting DOES have an environmental impact.

    The notion you, unlike the "factory farms" you deride so snootily don't waste anything is also nonsense. Factory farms don't waste anything either. They're run by businessmen, and any part of anything they had to spend money on wasted is money left on the table, and they're experts at NOT doing that. Take "pink slime" for instance... we all know now, what that is, right? For anyone who doesn't, it's the insider nick-name for scraps of meat that were too small for it to make economic sense to try to get off the bones mechanically, with knives, so they do it chemically, using a 'knife' called ammonia, to rip meat from bone at the molecular level. Then they (one would hope) remove or neutralize the (poisonous) ammonia, leaving just the meat, which is (or at least was, 'till word got out about this practice,) added to other meat products (like hamburgers,) and sold to people in stores and restaurants. Now that people found out and freaked out over it, they've returned to the older practice of only feeding it to animals, since the customers fled when people found out what unholy "meat" they were being fed. The reaction was similar to how you might expect people to respond on finding out what the main ingredient in Soylent Green is... in the case of pink slime, I don't think it's the source or method that alarms people, as much as the lack of confidence that ALL the poison is in fact being removed.

    The next self-delusion I'd like to try disabusing you of, is the notion of hunting's "light environmental impact". The reason hunters appear to have a lighter environmental impact is that there are relatively few of you doing it. If EVERYONE got his or her food the same way, all the little woodland creatures whose blood you gleefully splatter yourself with as you rip their still-warm carcasses open with your Bowie knife, (or do you use a machete?) would be rapidly driven to extinction. Farming food helps conserve nature by limiting the amount of the land set aside for feeding... what is it now, 8 billion people? Just look at the American Bison... hunted to near extinction... (or are they all gone now?) by people LIKE YOU, and that happened when there were FAR fewer people to feed than now.

    As for the meat being healthier, you don't know that. You don't know what poisons or toxins or parasites might have been in the food or water that animal ate and drank, there is NO quality control, and unless you're also certified as a kosher butcher, a food-safety/health inspector, or a veterinarian, how can you tell if the animal you shot or caught was diseased?

    Can you tell which fowl has H5N1, or which hoofed mammal has some kind of encephalitis, or meningitis, or rabies? Doubtful. People malign factory farms, but without them, many would starve, since they help keep prices down to within the reach of most people, and the product is generally of at least fairly decent quality. (At least in our country it is.) If you want better, you can always shop at Whole Paycheck... or the organic/free-range section that more and more supermarkets have nowadays, or go to a farmers' market.

    As for the idea that they're not miserable, I'm sure that's the last thing that goes through a deer's brain, or whatever animals you murder, before they die, as they limp along, bleeding to death from the wounds you gleefully inflicted, that they're SO glad to be killed by you, and that they weren't subjected to the misery of a factory farm. If they had the capacity to consider how much better off they were, they'd probably still resent being murdered and butchered to make your dinner.

    However... THEY'RE ANIMALS, genius... they don't think abstractly, and while I won't say they don't have feelings, after a fashion, I don't think you can argue that most herbivores are, as a group, are very bright. (You're not hunting wolves and bobcats, are you? They're reputed to be slightly more clever, but I doubt there's a really big difference.)

    As for the tiny amount of money you kick-in for the privilege of hunting, do you really think that covers the costs of woodland maintenance, fire-protection, etc.? It doesn't. It just reduces the number of people who kill animals for kicks, and to get trophies, by making it NOT free.

    Anyway, pat yourself on the back, Lily. You're helping to "destroy the Earth," just the same as anyone else, but in your case it's ironic since you think you're saving it. Well, you're not. Maybe if you used no electricity or man-made products, living in a naturally occurring cave that nothing else was occupying when you found it, hunting and gathering as our ancestors did with their bare hands and stone tools 25,000 years ago... but I doubt very much you're doing that, since most caves don't come with an INTERNET connection, so how could you have posted this self-serving drivel to CNN.com?

    Lie to yourself all you want, but anyone with any brains can see right through your self-congratulating, self-righteous, smug, annoying little post. You are a murderer of your fellow animals, you're no better than the rest of us, and when you hunt on your own you take food off the tables of farmers, ranchers, cowboys, etc., who collectively bear all the responsibility, and face 100% of the risk of making their livelihoods from being the ones who feed the world.

    Get over yourself, lady... you're no better than anyone else, just more deluded. You've been hanging out with the rural Oregonians too long.

    July 5, 2012 at 4:56 am |
    • shawn l

      You are an ignorant fool.

      July 5, 2012 at 7:45 am |
    • Langor

      Talk about being smug, you need to get over yourself. Did she build the gun,forge the knife,smelt the iron, really? Did you build any of the crap from which you are pontificating to us all? I believe it is pretty well universally recognized that one generation stands on the shoulders of the previous, you are no different or you'd be scribbling your grand expose in dust with a stick.

      July 5, 2012 at 8:57 am |
    • WhatNow

      Wow...you are just an angry jerk who thinks the world revolves around your opinion.

      July 5, 2012 at 9:35 am |
    • PeteFanortney

      Your story has become tiresome.

      July 6, 2012 at 3:13 pm |
    • kellory

      @Eman de Riuqer, I would like to be polite about this, but your post is so full of inaccurate stupidities, and inarticulate loathing, that you make that hope impossible
      ".The delusional fantasy that you're not harming the environment dove-tails nicely with the smugness of someone who thinks she is "self-sufficient". Only problem is, you're not. Did you build the gun you used to shoot whatever it is you ate? Did you forge the knife you gutted the animals with yourself, after discovering iron without being told what it was, how to find and extract it, how to make a fire with no tools made by anyone else? Didn't think so"
      "Definition of SELF-SUFFICIENT

      1
      : able to maintain oneself or itself without outside aid : capable of providing for one's own needs " I see nothing her to require I make my own tools.
      "Synonyms: independent, self-dependent, self-reliant, self-subsistent, self-subsisting, self-supported, self-supporting, self-sustained, self-sustaining"
      Another key word here "Maintain" main·tain verb \mān-ˈtān, mən-\
      transitive verb
      1
      : to keep in an existing state (as of repair, efficiency, or validity) : preserve from failure or decline " I see nothing here that says you need to rebuild from the ground up for every action or thought. Quite the opposite in fact.
      "As for the notion that it's not harmful to the environment, baloney. The animals you kill are removed from the food-web, resulting in an imbalance, an increase in the population of whatever they were either feeding on or competing for those resources with, which then propagates through the web, doing a little erosion of a sort, all along the way. The fact that you can't see the effect immediately or don't realize you're having one DOESN'T mean it's not happening. If you have any questions, consult Dr. Thomas Malthus. News flash, lady... your hunting DOES have an environmental impact." You are at least partially correct here. There is an effect. When there is more food and less predators, births increase, when there is less food and more predators, births decrease, and this process has been going on since the birth of the world. Does hunting have an adverse effect on this process? No, we are part of the process, and as natural as breathing. Only our weapons have changed over the years, but Bambi is just as dead from a rock from a sling as from a high power rifle bullet.
      " Take "pink slime" for instance... we all know now, what that is, right? For anyone who doesn't, it's the insider nick-name for scraps of meat that were too small for it to make economic sense to try to get off the bones mechanically, with knives, so they do it chemically, using a 'knife' called ammonia, to rip meat from bone at the molecular level. Then they (one would hope) remove or neutralize the (poisonous) ammonia, leaving just the meat, which is (or at least was, 'till word got out about this practice,) added to other meat products (like hamburgers,) and sold to people in stores and restaurants. Now that people found out and freaked out over it, they've returned to the older practice of only feeding it to animals, since the customers fled when people found out what unholy "meat" they were being fed. The reaction was similar to how you might expect people to respond on finding out what the main ingredient in Soylent Green is... in the case of pink slime, I don't think it's the source or method that alarms people, as much as the lack of confidence that ALL the poison is in fact being removed." Here you are making my point FOR me. People do not trust processed food as much as natural food because it is profit driven to compromise safety. All those safety inspectors are there to make sure the rules are followed, and the quality meet the MINIMUM standard. I have a vested interest in making sure the meat is good, as I and my family are the ones eating it. And after 40 years as a hunter, I can certainly tell good meat from bad as well as any butcher. If I use a processor, he HAS been trained and tested, and certified by the State, same as any butcher. And beyond that is a testing lab available for hunters if there is any doubt about any animal. You, Eman, do not know what you are talking about.
      "The next self-delusion I'd like to try disabusing you of, is the notion of hunting's "light environmental impact". The reason hunters appear to have a lighter environmental impact is that there are relatively few of you doing it. If EVERYONE got his or her food the same way, all the little woodland creatures whose blood you gleefully splatter yourself with as you rip their still-warm carcasses open with your Bowie knife, (or do you use a machete?) would be rapidly driven to extinction. Farming food helps conserve nature by limiting the amount of the land set aside for feeding... what is it now, 8 billion people? Just look at the American Bison... hunted to near extinction... (or are they all gone now?) by people LIKE YOU, and that happened when there were FAR fewer people to feed than now."
      ""The next self-delusion I'd like to try disabusing you of, is the notion of hunting's "light environmental impact". The reason hunters appear to have a lighter environmental impact is that there are relatively few of you doing it" Let's start with this nonsense. Here is a small fun fact for you. There are more registered hunters (that's guys who must buy permits to hunt public lands or to hunt someone else's land) (not guys like me, who hunt their own land,) in just 3 average eastern states , than fighters in the ENTIRE US MILITARY. We make such a small impact, you did not have any clue to the real facts.
      " If EVERYONE got his or her food the same way, all the little woodland creatures whose blood you gleefully splatter yourself with as you rip their still-warm carcasses open with your Bowie knife, (or do you use a machete?) would be rapidly driven to extinction" Typical PETA crap. Several species that WERE on the brink have been brought back to healthy herd sizes by hunter/ conservation groups. And efforts are ongoing world wide. With no help or thanks from you.
      "Just look at the American Bison... hunted to near extinction... (or are they all gone now?" Since you are obviously speaking out of your hind end without any attempt at accuracy, and no real knowledge, American Bison, commonly called Buffalo, are alive and well and being raised like cattle out west. They were brought back from the brink by,( dare I say it) Hunter/ conservation groups. (and Buffalo Hump is delicious!) Buffalo were endangered on two fronts, due to what was called "Market Hunting" (now outlawed)and the military's need to remove the Indian's food supply (that is another piece of war history)
      " all the little woodland creatures whose blood you gleefully splatter yourself with as you rip their still-warm carcasses open with your Bowie knife, (or do you use a machete?)"
      "Synonyms: blithesome, festive, gay, merry, jocose, jocular, jocund, jolly, jovial, laughing, mirthful, sunny"You can bet your ass I'm gleeful (grinning) a good harvest/ hunt is something to celebrate. They are still warm, because they must be gutted quickly to prevent damage to the meat or added waste. And while you could use a Bowie knife (it has been done when that is all you have) but a machete is a stupid choice of tool better suited to trimming trees and sneaking up on corn stalks (quivering in their roots) We use smaller knives for the skinning and gutting process. A very small knife called a gutting hook is used to open them up like a zipper! Works great and very little mess. flexible skinning knives are used to remove the hide.(These knives are much like fillet knives used on fish) and very sharp knives called boning knives are used to separate the joints. followed by rigid fixed blade knives for the meat slicing. We are workmen who prefer to use the right tool for the job.
      "and the product is generally of at least fairly decent quality. (At least in our country it is.) If you want better, you can always shop at Whole Paycheck... or the organic/free-range section that more and more supermarkets have nowadays, or go to a farmers' market." Free Range is exactly what Wild Game is you blithering idiot!
      "As for the idea that they're not miserable, I'm sure that's the last thing that goes through a deer's brain, or whatever animals you murder, before they die, as they limp along, bleeding to death from the wounds you gleefully inflicted, that they're SO glad to be killed by you, and that they weren't subjected to the misery of a factory farm. If they had the capacity to consider how much better off they were, they'd probably still resent being murdered and butchered to make your dinner." If I do my job well, the last thing to go through Bambi"s is my bullet. And he never knew I was there.
      "As for the tiny amount of money you kick-in for the privilege of hunting, do you really think that covers the costs of woodland maintenance, fire-protection, etc.? It doesn't. It just reduces the number of people who kill animals for kicks, and to get trophies, by making it NOT free." Do you have even a passing acquaintance with reality? Hunters generate BILLIONS or dollars each year in fees, taxes (self-imposed) waterfowl stamps, single use park fees (most of which we paid for their creation in the first place) and we buy thousands of acres each year through conservation groups, for the ongoing creation of wetlands, and animal habitats.
      As for hunting trophies, I hunt meat. If it happens to have an impressive rack, that will go up on the wall as a reminder of the hunt, but doe meat is sweater, and more tender, and is a better way to manage a herd size.
      "Lie to yourself all you want, but anyone with any brains can see right through your self-congratulating, self-righteous, smug, annoying little post. You are a murderer of your fellow animals, you're no better than the rest of us, and when you hunt on your own you take food off the tables of farmers, ranchers, cowboys, etc., who collectively bear all the responsibility, and face 100% of the risk of making their livelihoods from being the ones who feed the world." You clearly have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Farmers and ranchers have problems with too many deer, and can apply for nuisance permits, which allow them to kill even more deer outside of the normal hunting season! In some places, these permits allow for unlimited killing of deer because of the crop damage. The same crops that you rely upon to eat. Your dinner was protected from harm, by the killing of my dinner That makes you a hypocrite.
      Now, climb off your child's rocking horse, and learn a few facts before you spout off again. It just makes you look quite stupid.
      I AM A HUNTER, AND DAMN PROUD OF IT.

      July 7, 2012 at 12:05 pm |
  40. pikuni

    I am a Blackfeet Indian (enrolled) so am more genetically predisposed to hunt large game than most, and live both in rural Washington and remote Montana. Even so, it still isn't practical to live on hunted meat. Really, this is an absurd article, just fluffy nonsense. Just holier than thou crap. If even a tiny percentage of Americans took this advice, the woods would be bare of game, ecosystems would collapse, and idiots with guns would be shooting each other wholesale by accident. And I don't believe for a second that this girl actually practices what she preaches.

    July 5, 2012 at 4:09 am |
    • JellyBean

      "so am more genetically predisposed to hunt large game than most." And so I should have stopped reading there but wanted to see what other preposterous BS you posted.

      July 5, 2012 at 7:24 am |
    • ONTHunter

      You are predisposed to it because of your race? Just because the native americans were evolutionary behind compared to Europe and thus, were living behind the times until about 350 years ago does not mean you are predisposed to hunting.

      All humans were built to be hunters. Some have just lost touch with their culture.

      July 5, 2012 at 5:30 pm |
  41. Peteyroo

    “You can judge a man's true character by the way he treats his fellow animals.”
    ― Paul McCartney

    July 5, 2012 at 2:26 am |
    • ch

      Ah yes. The great philosophies of the guy who wrote "Silly Little Love Songs".

      July 5, 2012 at 9:28 am |
    • ONTHunter

      I treat animals with the utmost respect. I respect their need to exist, and I respect what they provide me and my family. There is always a moment after the kill where I reflect on what has just happened. There is far more to hunting than just the kill. Its about being in the outdoors, being one with nature, and enjoying all that nature has to offer. That means incorporating wild blueberries, fiddle heads, dandelions, mushrooms, green onions, raspberries, blackberries, and maple syrup into the fresh wild meals that I cook.

      July 5, 2012 at 9:32 am |
    • BoddaGetta

      I hunt and eat animals, but I respect them. In my undergraduate program [I'm a growth biologist PhD student], we were made to walk through the cattle chutes and arenas of a local slaughterhouse to empathize with our fellow living being, to see how tense or relaxed the atmosphere was and to make it more easy for the cows. A happy, content cow is a moveable one. And a delicious one, if that's its purpose later on. If a farmer mistreats his livestock, his product won't be as much quantity or quality.

      Ever had a free-range chicken egg vs a cooped-up, boxed hen's chicken egg? The difference is noticeable, even in appearance.

      I hunt once a year with my father when I go home to visit him for Thanksgiving. We kill a deer–sometimes buck, sometimes doe, none young–and split the meat after its processed. We always shoot the deer in the surest spot to kill him quickly and with the least amount of pain. We have a moment of silence out of respect for the animal who gave its life so we can have something to live off of. We take it home and process, leaving almost nothing behind. We've even used the innards to make delicious boudin, or sausage. Our neighbors love to make neck roasts. None of it is completely wasted.

      I'd say that's respectful. And as I mentioned above, deer are overpopulated in my area, so I'm helping out the overall local ecosystem by population check. I won't deny that humans are overpopulated as well. But that's why I take birth control and participate in family planning. Cannot say the same for most of my acquaintances, though...

      July 5, 2012 at 3:28 pm |
  42. neken7

    I don't hunt, but I fully support it for many of the reasons listed above.

    July 5, 2012 at 12:29 am |
  43. Todd

    Hunting has pretty much no validity as a realistic food source. According to Fish and Game, the average success rate for deer hunters is around 25%. That's for ONE animal, in an entire season. Once you've added up the cost of weapon, ammunition, supplies, clothing, permits...and taken into account the fairly low likelihood you'll actually bag anything? Yeah. It's silly to think hunting could supply the bulk of anyone's diet. Hunting is a sporting pursuit, just be honest about it.

    July 5, 2012 at 12:25 am |
    • Mark

      "One animal in an entire season"....you realize that one white tail deer(the smallest of the mule/axis/white tail/Stag line) can yield between 50-100 pounds of meat? That is a very substantial amount for a family. I have several freezers full of meat I have harvested myself. This is not a one time affair, nor is it uncommon with my friends and neighbors. To be honest, it sounds like you don't have much insight.

      July 5, 2012 at 12:35 am |
      • Todd

        Mark – so if the average success rate is around 25%, that would mean one deer every four years or so on average. 50 to 100 pounds of meat is not going to feed a family for 4 years.

        July 5, 2012 at 12:50 am |
        • Guest

          Cite your 25% success rate claim. Name the Game and Fish source you are quoting.

          July 5, 2012 at 12:57 am |
        • Mark

          Clearly stated in my response, I based my reply on one animal per season, not your unsubstantiated claim of 25% success rate, in which you did not clarify against how many hunting seasons it was based upon. 25% could mean that one out of four animals hunted in a season was harvested. EIther you can't articulate your thoughts, or you don't understand the numbers you are reading. Again, I don't think you have much insight, just some random statistics. You also make a very unsubstantiated claim in regards to the costs of supplies, which I'm pretty sure is more guess work on your part. Do you want to put some numbers and sources behind it?

          July 5, 2012 at 1:19 am |
        • ONTHunter

          That's one animal Todd. Deer are not the only animals that can be hunted. I also hunt bears, grouse, rabbits, squirrels, ducks, and geese. If I don't get a deer one season, no big deal. I have plenty of meat in the freezer that most certainly makes a difference in my family's food budget. Then there's fishing. I do not buy fish from the store, I go out and catch fresh walleye, bass, pike, perch, trout, and salmon. Some may think that hunting and fishing is unnecessary with today's supermarkets, but some people like knowing that they are providing for their family. There is a certain satisfaction that comes from knowing that you put the effort in to successfully harvest that animal.

          July 5, 2012 at 9:40 am |
        • really????????

          I must be one heck of a hunter then...I generally get three whitetails a year, which feeds my family for most of the year. With the other hunting I do we never purchase meat for our family.

          July 5, 2012 at 10:13 am |
    • SCott

      Nicely put Todd – my thoughts as well...

      July 5, 2012 at 12:36 am |
      • Avid Hunter/sportsman, outdoorsman

        Are you kidding me? My primary meat source is venison. I hunt deer and other game, and i feed my family with it. My wife and daughter both prefer venison over grocery beef. I am successful because i do my homework and I scout and read the habits of the animals. I have not purchased grocery meat in over 14 years. I bowhunt and gun hunt. I enjoy the hunt as well, I enjoy the challenge of having to outsmart a cunning and intelligent animal. I am not out there to kill an animal just to kill it. all HUNTERS are the same way, but just like every race there are bad apples.

        July 5, 2012 at 12:59 am |
    • Epidi

      Hence the gathering in "Hunting/Gathering". Man shall not live by meat alone. However, Mark is correct. A small deer can supply alot of meat for a family. A garden in the yard for veggies & fruit – can them up for the winter. Big savings in the long run and a diet our evolutionary trail has led us to which is healthiest for us. Many members of my husband's family hunts and we enjoy the best meat there is. Deer, Elk, Caribou, etc. Nothing is wasted. We honor the animals we kill & eat – I am proud to belong to a tradition passed down by our ancestors.

      July 5, 2012 at 1:40 am |
    • AGuest9

      There are multiple seasons in some states. Buck/doe, rifle/bow. It's possible to have a freezer full of meat every winter without going to the store. Don't forget bear season, and fishing in the spring and summer.

      July 5, 2012 at 9:41 am |
    • Exposing the Big Game

      You're right, more on that here: http://exposingthebiggame.wordpress.com/2012/07/12/the-day-seven-billion-people-decided-to-hunt-their-own-dinner/#comment-743

      July 11, 2012 at 9:52 pm |
  44. Ozarkhomesteader

    Biodynamic agriculture–where the chickens till the land and provide the fertilizer, for example, can be sustainable. The problem I have with hunting is that most hunters I know are not as conscientious as those you've met.

    July 4, 2012 at 11:45 pm |
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