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Growing up, I didn’t know anyone who hunted. Hunters, I figured, were probably just barbaric gun nuts. Then, eight years ago, I moved from Manhattan to rural Oregon, to write for a small newspaper. My perspective shifted when I began interviewing hunters for my articles and realized that although I had long considered myself an environmentalist, these hunters – most of whom scoffed at the “E” word – were more knowledgeable and thoughtful about animals and nature than I was.
Eventually, I decided to buy a gun and join them. But don’t worry, I’m still an environmentalist, loud and proud.
Five Reasons Why Hunting a Wild Animal Makes an Ethical Dinner: Lily Raff McCaulou
1. Hunting has a light environmental footprint
No antibiotics, artificial hormones, pesticides, herbicides, or unnatural feeds were used in raising this meat. Unlike farmed animals, a wild one doesn't contribute to soil erosion, water pollution, or the displacement of native plants in favor of a monoculture. No land is tilled to feed a wild animal, so additional carbon isn’t released into the atmosphere.
2. Wild animals aren’t subject to the misery of factory farming
My venison was never confined, castrated, or branded the way most farmed steers are. My duck was never caged, de-beaked, or toe-clipped the way most domesticated poultry is. Wild animals, unlike many domesticated ones, aren’t bred, fed and medicated to achieve rapid weight gain so that they can be killed at just a few weeks of age.
3. None of the meat is wasted
After I shoot an animal, I gut it and butcher it myself (or, in the case of an 800-pounds bull elk, with some help from friends). This way, I know the meat was handled safely. I don’t have to worry about listeria or trichinosis. And I’m confident that as much of the animal as possible is used. To hunt and butcher an animal is to recognize that meat is not some abstract form of protein that springs into existence tightly wrapped in cellophane and styrofoam. Meat is life. So I seek out recipes that make the most of it. I cook it with care. I share with friends and family. I make sure eat every bite gets enjoyed.
4. Hunting pays for conservation
To hunt for elk this fall, for example, I’ve already bought an Oregon hunting license for $29.50, paid $8 to enter a lottery for the right to hunt in a particular spot, and purchased a $42.50 tag. That means I’ve already paid $80 toward wildlife research and habitat protection in my home state. Bird-watchers and hikers haven’t paid anywhere near that much.
With approximately 12.5 million hunters nationwide, we’re talking about real money. Proceeds from the Federal Duck Stamp – a required $15 annual purchase for migratory waterfowl hunters – have added more than five million acres to the national wildlife refuge system. And federal excise taxes on hunting equipment and ammunition garner more than $200 million a year for wildlife management and the purchase of public lands.
5. Hunting promotes conservation
To hunt is to participate in the ecosystem rather than just watch from the sidelines. When I track an animal, I use all of my senses to take in my surroundings, as if I were a wild animal myself. So by the time I actually shoot something, I’ve developed a deep connection to the species and to the land. I considered myself an environmentalist before I started hunting. But back then, all of my reasons for conservation were theoretical. Now that I hunt, I have a real-life, vested interest in seeing places – and wildlife populations – preserved in the long-term. Someday, I want take my son hunting in all of my favorite spots.
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If you are considering only our decision to eat a plant based diet then in this aspect yes, Elrond and all others, vegans are smarter and better because we understand that our desire to taste meat is inferior to the animals desire to live. A human's diet does not require animal products in order to be a healthy diet. However as vegans we do not conclude that in every other aspect of our existence are we better than someone else. Your defensiveness and frustration stem from guilt. Surely you will deny this (I did until I was 25), but I highly suggest you remove yourself from Rivendell and open your eyes to reality. Vegans are not "at it again" because we never stopped being at it. Vegans never stop caring and looking for opportunities to communicate inconvenient truths and messages of compassion to someone who has been blocked from the reality of the pain and suffering and trauma that is enmeshed in the life and death of any being that is killed so a human can enjoy 15-20 minutes of the flavor and texture of his/her body. This article is drenched in excuses that the writer has come up with in order to justify the unnecessary death of an animal. "her venison" is a red flag showing that her true intentions are to remind herself that she is a dominant species, that she is predator, that she is capable of owning anything and everything that leaves a footprint on this earth. If she were truly in touch with nature she would see the abundance it provides that allows humans to eat healthfully with out inflicting pain or causing death to animals that want to live their lives just as we want to live our own. I sincerely ask any of you who feel the need to argue what I have said to first consider why humans eat animals when they are in no way a dietary requirement. Never say never to being vegan. It is a hell of a lot more easy, more peaceful, more in-tune with nature than spending hours picking off animals that have their own families, feelings, desires and instincts to survive.
Your post only highlights my point. You stated that you are indeed smarter and better than those of us who don't share your opinions and views. How utterly arrogant is that?
You, much like religious zealots, insist that your way is the only true way, and you continue to try to convert we barbaric heathens whom you see as stupid and unenlightened.
I don't see anyone here trying to convert you away from being a vegan. Do you? I couldn't care less what you eat. That's your choice and your right, based on your beliefs. But apparently, I am not afforded that same courtesy.
All your "inconvenient truths" seem to be pseudo-science opinions that are not peer-reviewed and are not based on the scientific method, but they agree nicely with your beliefs, so you promote them as fact.
I don't share your beliefs, and I don't need to be converted to your religion. I don't need your religion. All the proselytizing in the world won't make me a vegan. You use circular logic to justify your position, yet it all comes back to the same thing; "We're right and you're wrong, because we say so."
Why do you feel you must continue to try to convert everyone to believe what you believe?
I'm not hostile towards you. I just think you're goofy. And pretty arrogant.
I'm not suggesting you must agree with me, only that you consider the possibility that you might be completely wrong. Has that though never crossed your mind?
The only open hostility I see here is vegans calling non-believers 'murderers and criminals.'
Since the beginning of time there were great minds like Leonardo Da Vinci, Plato, Socrates, Albert Einstein, Lao Tzu and many others who tried to convey the message that eating animals (our own kind) is not appropriate for humans and is not even healthy. But "you, much like some religious zealots, insist that your way is the only true way." Why kill if it is proven that we are not omnivorous. We feed cows meat now and because they can survive on it, soon we will forget that they are herbivorous.
Trying to convert someone with out-and-out absurdity won't work. Humans aren't omnivores? Do you really believe that? Are you really that desperate?
July 16, 2012 at 4:29 pm |
lena
Every movement towards a less violent society started with a few. These few were often times ridiculed, persecuted and even killed. The mass always had a hard time to change and always had ‘leaders’ who kept singing the same old songs that were pleasant to their ears. “Nothing will benefit human health and increase the chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet.” ― Albert Einstein
I'm surprised that anyone who dares to disagree with this writer is termed - in so many words - a "religious terrorist." Seems a bit dramatic, not to mention, offensive. Also, the leap from vegan to "religious terrorist" is especially bizarre and most likely the creativity engendered by the mind of a very angry, disturbed person.
Sorry, not buying it. Her words: "So by the time I actually shoot something, I’ve developed a deep connection to the species and to the land." I'm not sure how shooting an animal to death could be considered a deep connection to it. seems cowardly somehow.
Seems no more cowardly to me than passing judgement about an entire group of people or an activity that you clearly know nothing about while hiding behind the anonymity of the internet.
And your real name would be "Guest"? I have the right to express my opinion on a comments board; there's nothing cowardly about it at all. And I do know hunters, so your comment is inaccurate. Perhaps you should think a bit before you pop off in a post.
Also, anonymous Guest, I'm not sure why you're accusing me of not knowing anything about a certain group of people. I'm making a statement about this particular writer, this particular hunter.
A delayed response, but a response none-the-less. When you participate in a hunt, the trek involved, and to become part of the surrounding, you DO develop a connection with the land. You have to remain quiet, take in the hints from where the animal may be, and you learn to understand more about the environment than you did before. It is cowardly to hunt? It seems slightly ironic given the idea that you are a human, who has evolved from an earlier species, who has had an early ancestor hunt prior in existence. I'm sorry if you do not agree, but here is my opinion.
Again? Copying my name, and posting some so rude in my stead? Sigh.
Don't bother reporting. Trolls are everywhere on the internet these days. It's sad to see such a low level of human life.
Again, I only wish for peace and love in this discussion! But the troll is right in one sense - I'm sorry if I offend anyone with my opinions; however, this IS the opinion section.
Guess what? You think you can anonymously post, but, remember your user name is linked to your email address. I'm sure CNN will be interested in knowing about your activities. Remember, there is no anonymity on the Web. Can't wait to report you to the moderators.
The Netherlands study, entitled “Climate Benefits of Changing Diet,” analyzed the entire chain of animal-raising activities from field to fork. It calculated the monetary cost of halting climate change, which was defined as stabilizing atmospheric CO2 at the level of 450 parts per million. The report concluded that US$20 trillion, or 50 percent of a total US$40 trillion estimated cost, could be saved from the global shift to a low-meat diet. Going even further, the researchers found that a completely vegan diet with no animal products would save an enormous 80% by 2050. What’s more, another benefit was discovered. Because plant-based diets produce much more food for humans than meat and dairy-based diets, some of the land not used to grow livestock could be turned back into carbon-absorbing forests, which are known to help reduce CO2 emissions.
Primal4Life, I don't understand your hostility about all this. She's just expressing differing opinions and backing it up with some interesting information. I learned something from reading your posts and I'm learning something from reading Lena's. It's good to keep an open mind for both sides, and not stoop to insults.
I don't think Primal4life stoops to insults, he raises himself to them
July 9, 2012 at 4:00 pm |
Primal 4 Life
I love knowing that I live rent free in sam stones mind, tiny as it is.
LMFAO!!!!!!
July 9, 2012 at 4:17 pm |
InvasiveSpecies
I think everybody's in the anger stage at the moment, LOL. Interesting study; thanks for posting the information. I'm trying to absorb information from everyone ... I think there are a lot of ethical hunters who take no pleasure in killing, but simply are doing it to get food on the table. And vegans are so passionate about their feelings, yet if you believe in animal advocacy, it's difficult not to be passionate. I just think we can all try to learn from each other here somehow. I appreciate research and posts about studies - always interesting.
We're talking about hunting, not raising livestock. Not one little iota of the data you posted is relevant to the carbon footprint of wild animals living on untended land that are killed on an individual basis. Those animals did not have massive carbon footprints, they had *exactly* the carbon footprint that they were supposed to have. Not to mention that without some population control, many game species DO have negative impacts on their environments. Short-sighted folks a long time ago wiped out way too many of the predators of these game species so without a check of some kind they'll run wild. Turn your faux indignation towards the tens of thousands of wild horses that are slaughtered every year if you want to weigh in on something.
i'm glad you actually recognize that killing horses is murder. I guess you love them more than other animals, maybe because you know them better, like your dog. The reason why hunting is not good of a solution is because it kills, teaches how to kill and when most of animals in the wild will be killed, humans will start to raise them again. if humans kill 60 billion animals each year, do you think there won't be any environmental impact when removing 60 billion animals from the wild or even half? How long will it take your group of people with a similar activity to kill them all? Guest, either you are paid to talk these things or...... it's sad
You really need to "bone up" on your scriptures, Lena, because what you said is simply and emphatically not true. That leaves one of two possible conclusions – either 1) you are so ignorant of the scriptures that you don't know this isn't true, or 2) what you posted was an out-and-out lie.
HINT: Read the third chapter of Leviticus and then get back to us.
i think the more people were eating animals, the more they thought God enjoys the smell of it (just like them). According to the bible, originally, we were eating ' every seed-bearing plant and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. "
Or it might have nothing to do with any sort of religion and more to do with the fact that humans are an omnivorous species of ape with enough self-awareness to effect some control of what we eat.
one of the latest discoveries humans made is that cows are also omnivorous: http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/nature/meat-back-on-menu-for-animal-feed-20-years-after-bse-crisis-2072188.html
July 9, 2012 at 1:20 pm |
lena
"I am full of the burnt offering of rams and the fat of fed beasts. I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of goats...Bring no more vain offerings... When you spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes though you make many prayers, and I will not hear you. For your hands are full of blood..." – (Isaiah 1:11-15)
Isaiah 65:25
"The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but dust will be the serpent's food. They will neither hunt nor destroy on all my holy mountain," says the LORD.
PLUTARCH:
"Can you really ask what reason Pythagoras had for abstinence from flesh? For my part I rather wonder both by what accident and in what state of mind the first man touched his mouth to gore and brought his lips to the flesh of a dead creature, set forth tables of dead, stale bodies, and ventured to call food and nourishment the parts that has a little before bellowed and cried, moved and lived. How could eyes endure the slaughter when throats were slit and hides flayed and limbs torn from limb"
How could his nose endure the stench? How was it that the pollution did not turn away his taste, which made contact with sores of others and sucked juices and serums from mortal wounds? It is certainly not lions or wolves that we eat out of self-defense; on the contrary, we ignore these and slaughter harmless, tame creatures without stings or teeth to harm us. For the sake of a little flesh we deprive them of sun, of light, of the duration of life to which they are entitled by birth and being."
The truth is God ended the animal sacrifices and sacrificed a man once for all, as predicted. Hebrews 10:8-12 Above, saying Sacrifices and offerings and burnt-offerings and sacrifices (of animals) for sin thou willedst not, neither tookest pleasure in (which are offered according to the Mosaic law); 9 then he said, Lo, I (Jesus Christ) come to do thy will. He takes away the first (sacrifice system) that he may establish the second; 10 by which will (His will) we have been sanctified (made holy) through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every (Jewish cf. the context) priest stands daily ministering, and offering often the same sacrifices (animal sacrifices), which can never take away sins. 12 But *he*, (Jesus Christ) having offered one sacrifice for sins, sat down in perpetuity at [the] right hand of God, (job complete)... ... One sacrifice for sins, forever. That's the truth at no cost to you.
and then people will say lions and wolves hunt,... but the thing is most hunters kill the strongest and healthiest of the herd ,the ones needed to breed. ,just trophy hunting for the rack. while animals like lions and wolves, the true hunters who go after their prey and not hide in a tree with a gun, usually go after sick, weak animals and getting rid of the unfit animals.. so nature will take it course of the survival of the strongest and fittest as it is meant to be.
Wolves and lions use the tools nature gave them–their speed, strength, claws and teeth. Nature gave humans tools too–opposable thumbs, intelligence and cunning. Why should we not be allowed to use what nature provided us to gain an advantage over the prey?
A larger animal that has lived a life span long enough to develop a full set of antlers implies a more robust physiology which is then passed on to his offspring. I'm not saying all hunters are concerned about the size of antlers, but the ones I know certainly are interested in killing these "prize animals."
July 9, 2012 at 10:41 am |
lena
CNN employees! If you followed this conversation, what I was supposed to do? Wait for you to post all these facts and information? Even if you are not vegans, why not challenge your doctors to take about 50 vegans and 50 meat eaters and check their health (I would list all the tests they can do if I knew you are reading this.)? Why not tell people about the veganism among philosophers and scientists? Why not tell people what vegans eat and why they did it? Why not find people who healed themselves from cancer, diabetes, Crohn’s diseases and tell their stories? Why not ask your doctors to research why vegan diet heals and, obviously, the meat-diet makes one sick in a long run? Why not tell people about the environmental impact of Livestock Industry? Why not check why doctors do not advise cancer patients to eat animal products? Why not write about milk which is designed for babies and it has a lot of hormones to make the baby grow faster. (just check why vegans don’t drink milk and ask your doctors to do more research on it). Why our Livestock Industry is paying the pharmaceutical companies and why are they the ones who finance the campaigns that advertise milk and meat? There is so much to talk about especially now when so many people are turning vegan and many will benefit so much from it.
While I can appreciate your individual decision to be vegan and express your comments here, this is not "Vegan National News" aka VNN. This site has and hopefully will continue to present articles on food and food related topics, all food, not just the food you think we should be eating. I am sure there are many other websites you can go to that will focus on your obsession with like minded people...
No you don't, you wish everyone who joined the conversation would abandon their free will and live their lives according to your choices.
You're a very clear example of why so many people react so negatively to the idea of a vegetarian diet. It's not so much the idea that's offensive, it's the way you go about telling them that their values are wrong and yours are right when you have absolutely no moral standing to make such a judgement. Just be a personal example and you'll gain more influence than you ever will with all this preaching.
July 7, 2012 at 9:07 pm |
mark dante
you need to read about biodynamic agriculture...
your love affair with insulin is misguided indeed...
the corn based system you are so proud of is killing not just the america, but the world...
it saddens me that you are so unaware of evolution and how it effects us today...
as a primal eater, i would put my cholesterol levels up against yours and back it up with every thing i own...
the diseases of the autoimmune ilk that you spoke of are prevalent BECAUSE of the diet high in carbs (upside down) and the stresses it puts on our broken immune systems...
true "meat eaters" meaning those that eat primaly suffer FAR FAR less from the maladies related to inflamation and immune disorders than vegans...
a human being can live without any carbs at all... they cannot live without protien. and while many civilizations have lived on entirely carcal diets, not a one has ever survived on the slave food you laud.
again, revisit your high school science books and read up on evolution... that is, if you are indeed out of high school.
lena... would you like to discuss the fact that most hard and soft cell tumors can only consume glycogen? your vegan "diet" is pouring plantfood on the weeds while it hammers your immune system into a limp piece of endive...
we could also go on forever about the effects of high carb diets on our mitochondria... lets just say it aint good...
"Cancer cells thrive in an acid environment. A meat-based diet is acidic" http://theveganfattie.blogspot.ca/
you will have to do more research on this topic. i put some links below. We should prevent soft cell tumours in the first place.
July 7, 2012 at 8:33 pm |
lena
we don't need the protein, we need the amino-acids from the protein. All plant-based foods are protein. The enzymes in plant-based foods is protein, and is necessary for the body. Animal products do not come with enzymes and deprive our body of enzymes, that's why so many people suffer now from allergies and other health problems. We also eat too much dead protein from animal products and this deteriorates our digestive system. Please check these facts, there is plenty of info on that. Can you send the link please were a study was done saying that meat-eaters are healthier? I found that many studies were done on Seventh-day Adventists which concluded that they are much healthier than meat-eaters.
"All plant based foods are protein." Really? Where did you come up with that?
"Animal products do not come with enzymes?" Really? Where did you come up with that?
You could not be more wrong with two statements you made if you said the czar still rules Russia and most birds don't fly.
You may be acquainted with some of the great philosophers' works, but let me remind you of something that Abraham Lincoln said – "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
I'm telling you right now, lady, you really should have taken that quote to heart before you made those two statements.
July 7, 2012 at 4:34 pm |
lena
please research more, i don't have time.. digestive enzymes are also protein and they are destroyed when food is processed.... i just put some links, but you can trace the actual research papers...
John A. McDougall, M.D.:
Many people believe than animal foods contain protein that is superior in quality to the protein found in plants. This is a misconception dating back to 1914, when Osborn and Mendel studied the protein requirements of laboratory rats.[11]... Based on these early rat experiments the amino acid pattern found in animal products was declared to be the standard by which to compare the amino acid pattern of vegetable foods. According to this concept, wheat and rice were declared deficient in lysine, and corn was deficient in tryptophan. It has since been shown that the initial premise that animal products supplied the most ideal protein pattern for humans, as it did for rats, was incorrect.... From the chart, it is clear that even single vegetable foods contain more than enough of all amino acids essential for humans.... Furthermore, many investigators have found no improvement by mixing plant foods or supplementing them with amino acid mixtures to make the combined amino acid pattern look more like that of flesh, milk, or eggs.[35-44] ... People have actually lived for long periods of time in excellent health by satisfying their entire nutritional needs with potatoes and water alone.[33] ... Nature has designed vegetable foods to be complete. If people living before the age of modern dietetics had had to worry about achieving the correct protein combinations in their diets, our species would not have survived for these millions of years.10
http://www.anticancerinfo.co.uk/enzymes.html
http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/protein.htm
http://www.naturalnews.com/026909_enzymes_digestive_health.html
http://www.rawbc.org/articles/enzymes_protein.html
this article has links to
July 7, 2012 at 7:08 pm |
lena
we need the amino-acids, not the protein. Protein is the middle man that our body needs to break down to remove the amino acids. The harder the protein is to digest (especially animal protein), the more acid and enzymes we need to digest them. When the body is acidic (all animal protein is acidic), all kinds of health issues start developing over time. http://www.balance-ph-diet.com/
http://wandahamilton50.com/top-10-acid-alkaline-food-myths-and-facts-you-need-to-know/
Russian hematologists found out that acidic food changes the red blood cells electrical charge from negative to positive and they start clotting to each other. This is done with the help of Here are some health related issues: http://quizlet.com/2162581/disorders-of-the-red-blood-cells-and-coagulation-disorders-flash-cards/ this is very easy to proof if a hematologyst will compare the blood of vegans verses meat-eaters http://www.dolmaonline.com/sdp/1078343/4/pd-5194846/7357396-2097690/MDI_One_Drop_of_Blood_Detector_Light-weight_high-s.html
July 7, 2012 at 7:34 pm |
lena
cancer cells develop in a non-oxygenated environment, when red blood cells clot and can't bring enough oxygen and nutrients to the cells – a cell can be healthy only when it has adequate oxygen and blood. "Cancer begins with damaged genes. Initiation occurs when the DNA in a normal cell is damaged. Turn cancer off by avoiding animal protein; this means avoiding meat, eggs, dairy and fish (the omega oils are destroyed in fish while cooking)"
http://www.stopcancer.com/ottolecture.htm
epidemic.http://www.holisticlocal.com/articles/view/800/Cancer-Turn+It+On+Or+or+Turn+It+Off
"Meat protein is difficult to digest and requires a lot of digestive enzymes: http://pathology.jhu.edu/pc/news2008.php
July 7, 2012 at 8:23 pm |
What?
Lena,
If you don't get anything else out of all this, try to get this – every enzyme is a protein. Regardless of what the enzyme does, where it comes from, or where it goes, it's a protein. And while we're on the subject of proteins . . . you typically don't find just a bunch of 'loose' amino acids "laying around" in any food product – either plant or animal in origin. So you see, you pretty much have to eat PROTEIN to get to the AMINO ACIDS.
You know, I can find nutrition and biochemical textbooks to refute nearly everything you've said here, but – just to put it bluntly – you're not worth the effort. You talk about having an "open mind", but you are one of, if not THE, most closed-minded person who has responded in this entire string of almost 1400 comments as I type this.
I have more physiological chemistry and biochemistry than you will ever dream of taking – I won't say 'could' take, because I don't know you and won't resort to that kind of personal attack. However, some of your sources are pure quackery, but you're so blinded by what YOU want that you can't see that.
July 7, 2012 at 10:51 pm |
lena
how come after so many year on a vegan diet i'm still alive and my immune system is stronger than ever? i don't take any suplements. I really want to know. I would even be happy to send you a picture of me and my children so you can see that we are very ok, physically and mentally. Please explain.
July 7, 2012 at 11:07 pm |
lena
i also said that enzymes are protein and they are killed during cooking. Fruits and Vegetables are high in Enzymes:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/320914-fruits-vegetables-high-in-enzymes/
July 7, 2012 at 11:13 pm |
lena
please try to read everything, I also said that our digestive system has to break down the protein to remove the amino-acids. The harder the protein is to break down, the more damage we do to our digestive organs and it also makes the body acidic. Usually, the protein that is harder to digest does not come with enzymes. The pancreas of a diabetic can start working better in a week if on a vegan diet. Please try if you are a doctor and know anyone with diabetes. Here is a good way to plan a vegan diet: http://www.21daykickstart.org/
July 7, 2012 at 11:18 pm |
lena
I want to say that we need more research on a vegan diet and why a human body can survive on it if there is so much contradiction
July 7, 2012 at 11:20 pm |
What?
I asked earlier, but it may be so far down you haven't seen it – What kind of starches do you eat? Do you eat any pasta at all?
July 7, 2012 at 11:23 pm |
lena
here is a good documentary that shows how all kinds of diabetes were healed in only a month on a plant based diet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFXMRbV6UPM If you don't believe, pursue your colleges to research further.
July 7, 2012 at 11:24 pm |
lena
not much at all and I eat very little, i don't eat tofu or soy milk anymore. I can't eat overly processed foods, I feel how it dries my body, not used to it animore. My diet is mostly raw, but i eat quinoa, hemp, flax seeds and things like that. I don't eat rice and I eat only a small amount of what I used to eat. I guess I use foods packed with nutrients and my body gets everything fast and with no much energy that's why I don't need to eat much and i don't loose weight. Not too many people believe I have grown up children. I do a lot of mental (my profession requires it) and physical work. I don't have time for sports, and yet I'm in shape.
July 7, 2012 at 11:48 pm |
lena
I'm just trying to say that no one will ever think that I'm on such diet
July 7, 2012 at 11:56 pm |
Primal 4 Life
Outstanding post. I'm with ya 100%. Tired many things including the rave diet, which is essentially vegetarian, and it wasn't until the Primal Blueprint that things began to go my way. I dropped 45 pounds, without effort, my blood work returned to normal as well as my BP. This allowed me to leave the meds behind and my doctor had no problem taking me off of them. I have to energy of my early 20's.
I feel so good now I wish I had known about this years ago.
Ugh, are you this sanctimonius in real life? If you're half as insufferable offline as you are here, I don't know how anyone could stand you. Do you preach at people constantly? Come up for air!
lena is so far out in left field on so many issues, i just had to respond. there is strong evidence backed by leading anthrpologists that the beginning of successful hunting and meat eating lead directly to the fairly rapid development of the hominid brain leading to our present state of brain development. the energy to facilitate brain development just was not there with a plant diet. over half of the land on this planet cannot be farmed for crops because of limitations due to topography, water availability or suboptimal soils. what can be grown on this land are grass fed cattle or wild animals. wild meat contains essentil fatty acids that tame meat and vegetables just cannot supply, vegan diets can cause deficiencies of many things, most notable being vitamins B12, K and D and iron . the most important of these is B12. in developing infants a deficiency of B 12 can cause neural tube defects – serious central nervous system abnormalities. in growing children especially in the first 2 or 3 years of life when brain development is most rapid, B 12 deficiency causes problems with decreased myelin formation and with the formation of the millions of synapses necessary for maximum brain development.. in vegan children this results in poorer cognitive abilities compared with other children.
vegans/vegetarians like to tout there superiority morally over those of us who eat meat, especially those of us who hunt our own. i like to point out to them that their huge fields of lettuce and broccoli have resulted in the deaths of entire ecosystems to create those fields. their response is usually that the animals and insects on that land just move next door when replaced by non-wild vegetables. they do not realize, as do those of us who have truly studied wildlife as part of our hunting tradition, that every acre of land, espacially in its natural state, has a carrying capacity. only so many organisms, plant and animal, can inhabit and survive on each piece of land. therefore,no one, not even a vegan can eat and live without sacrificing some other life form. what is better? someone who hunts, removes a few free healthy animals every year, leaving behind a healthy population in balance with what the land can provide. or a vegan or vegetarian who completely changes nature and causes the demise of virtually evey living thing inhabiting that piece of land.
here is some info about the essential fatty acids and how they are destroyed with cooking and processing and how nuts and seeds can be a better sources (again, please do more research) http://www.electroherbalism.com/Naturopathy/Therapies/Diet/FatsandOils/index.htm As for what anthropologists concluded, it is just a theory and because we don't know for sure, we can't say there couldn't have been a better way for us to evolve. I don't know if you believe in God, but all the scriptures tell us that humans were supposed to eat plant-based foods. check Genesis 1:29 and wonder why Buddha didn't let his disciples to eat meat (it turns out their brain connection is much better than ours): http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/mindfulness-meditation-improves-connections-in-the-brain-201104082253
We present a lot of opinions from a lot of people - hunters, vegans, farmers, chefs, activists. They'll all bring their own point of view to it. Just because we're presenting one side of an argument at some point doesn't mean we've neglected the other.
Conversation and differing viewpoints are a *good* thing.
This is just really too low - nobody should take another's online ID. Immature, childish, unreal. Lena, the real Lena, sorry for the trolls. There are good folks out there too. Good for you for believing in yourself - ignore the trolls; they're like little kids, having tantrums if someone disagrees with them.
jeepbrah, it's funny that you think you can hide behind anonymity. Nothing on the 'Net is anonymous. If I report you to the CNN moderators, your post is linked to your email address ... so guess what? No anonymity for you to hide behind.
it wasn't a tantrum actually, I just feel so much pain for the animals and of course I wanted to put as many facts as possible that not too many people know of.... plus, I always wonder why people don't want to change when they can be healthier and not be involved in the causing of so much suffering... I learned a few things though... (it was my first time to participate in such a discussion and i hope is the last :) ) Peace and love to all!!!!!
(real Lena) someone took my name to post his comment... if you can only see how low of a human being you are... I guess this is my last post. i just hope you are not a cnn employee...
'This is dreadful! Not the suffering and death of the animals, but that people suppress in themselves, unnecessarily, the highest spiritual capacity – that of sympathy and pity towards living creatures... " Leo Tolstoy (Tolstoy was introduced and became a vegetarian, all on the same day.) http://veg.ca/content/view/525/113/
Vegan for Life, if someone didn't push their ideas, we would still have slavery and guillotine... Let the civilization progress; don't drag it behind by shutting up people
Too bad what you preach is actually backwards and makes people sick in the long run. Anybody that tells anyone to eat grains is lying to them and pointing them to a harmful decision. The fact you think otherwise makes it even worse.
You really should just be a vegan and keep your ignorant pie hole shut about it.
Shoulder update – just checked it out and it's marinating perfectly. Post you email so I can send you pictures of it.
July 6, 2012 at 5:04 pm |
lena
Socrates: Would this habit of eating animals not require that we slaughter animals that we knew as individuals, and in whose eyes we could gaze and see ourselves reflected, only a few hours before our meal?
Glaucon: This habit would require that of us.
Socrates: Wouldn't this [knowledge of our role in turning a being into a thing] hinder us in achieving happiness?
Glaucon: It could so hinder us in our quest for happiness.
Socrates: And, if we pursue this way of living, will we not have need to visit the doctor more often?
Glaucon: We would have such need.
Socrates: If we pursue our habit of eating animals, and if our neighbor follows a similar path, will we not have need to go to war against our neighbor to secure greater pasturage, because ours will not be enough to sustain us, and our neighbor will have a similar need to wage war on us for the same reason?
Glaucon: We would be so compelled.
Socrates: Would not these facts prevent us from achieving happiness, and therefore the conditions necessary to the building of a just society, if we pursue a desire to eat animals?
Good lands, ONTHunter, cut her some slack. Lena has a right to express her opinions and she's obviously researched her topics. I know feelings run high about these topics, but name calling and finger pointing aren't going to help us learn from each other. I'm not a hunter, but you've made some valid points for hunting, while Lena's made some valid points for the vegan lifestyle. We should all lighten up a bit here.
July 6, 2012 at 12:29 pm |
What?
@ Invasive Species
You, too, have some very valid points.
"Lena", "Mike", "Peteyroo" and a couple of others here obviously – in their own minds – form the collective 'conscience' for the U.S. Since they are omniscient – again, in their own minds – they know better than anybody else what is "ethical" and what is "unethical" and have made a habit of telling us that in this string. "To each his own" and "live and let live" are foreign concepts to them.
And vegans wonder why they get a "bad name". When one constantly 'forces' their beliefs on others who don't share those same beliefs, they don't deserve any "slack".
July 6, 2012 at 12:52 pm |
InvasiveSpecies
@What? That, by the way, is a great name to post with! And I like your post, thank you. But, I think it's both sides. People who hunt and eat meat can be quite passionate (and sometimes rude) about their beliefs too. I think for the vegans, they are so passionate about animal welfare (which is a great thing), that it's difficult for them to understand how anyone can appear to be anti-animal welfare. It's like the pro-lifers - if you believe a terrible wrong is being perpetrated, it's difficult not to preach and shout about it. And I'm not saying hunters are in any way anti-animal welfare, but from a vegan standpoint, it can seem so. You truly get dogmatic people on both sides. Probably none of us has the answers, but, by golly, we each think we do, LOL. And I get upset when I see people stereotyping each other: "all hunters are dumb rednecks," "all vegans are nuts." That's a shame and leads nowhere.
July 6, 2012 at 2:02 pm |
ONTHunter
@InvasiveSpecies...I will not cut Lena any slack. I have no problem with people expressing an opinion and offering alternative thoughts. In fact, I encourage it and listen with open ears and an open mind. However, what I do not stand for is other people telling me I am barbaric, inhumane, mentally inferior etc. She has dug herself a trench with her double speak, now she can claw her way out.
July 11, 2012 at 7:36 pm |
lena
I am not saying i'm perfect and whenever I hear a message, I always check if the messanger is right or will i improve if i change.... I don't close my ears just because i think i'm right and i know everyting.
here is a good example of what open mindness means 'Tolstoy was introduced and became a vegetarian, all on the same day. With only one conversation.
It must take a special kind of intelligence to change one's life so suddenly. The confrontation and reversal of personal hypocrisies can be harrowing, especially if the information is coming from someone who is less famous, of lower status, and hitherto unknown. Yet, Leo Nikolaevich Tolstoy was one such man with proven ability to hear an argument, accept it, and change his entire life to meet his new knowledge. Instantly. '
Matt, any zealot, be they a vegan, or, indeed, a hunter, can make their "home team" look bad. Militant hunters can be just as offensive as any other such group.
Matt, any zealot, be they a vegan, or, indeed, a hunter, can make their "home team" look bad. Militant hunters can be just as offensive as any other such group.
Todd, you are in error.
"Todd
Hunting has pretty much no validity as a realistic food source. According to Fish and Game, the average success rate for deer hunters is around 25%. That's for ONE animal, in an entire season. Once you've added up the cost of weapon, ammunition, supplies, clothing, permits...and taken into account the fairly low likelihood you'll actually bag anything? Yeah. It's silly to think hunting could supply the bulk of anyone's diet. Hunting is a sporting pursuit, Once you've added up the cost of weapon, ammunition, supplies, clothing, permits.
Point 1)According to Fish and Game, the average success rate for deer hunters is around 25% First,This will vary widely depending upon where you hunt. second, Every hunter I know has a much higher success rate. Your numbers include every weekend warrior who picks up a weapon for the opening day of deer gun season each year, and does no other hunting activity any other time. I would not expect much success from them. Real hunter practice year round, do the leg work, scout the trails, and learn everything they can about the prey, the terrain, the food sources, ect. Many hunters are successful enough, to donate meat to the Hunters Against Hunger program, and food pantries.
And this part" Once you've added up the cost of weapon, ammunition, supplies, clothing, permits." Some of this is a real cost, some is not. I still carry the shotgun my Grand Father carried. I have no need of a new one each hunting season. Nor does anyone else. Permits do cost money, and supplies cost about the same if I am eating at home or in the field, and clothing lasts for many seasons. My hunting coat is more than 15 years old.
Now the big one, AMMO! I pay more than $3 DOLLARS for one sabot round for my 12ga. shotgun. I know others pay less, but I only use the good stuff. and that breaks down to almost 35cent per pound on an average 100 pounds of meat. I could probably get my cost per pound down to 25 cents, if I would use less accurate ammo. Now, keep in mind, my cost could DOUBLE if I needed TWO rounds, but most times ONE is all I need.
"just be honest about it" I could not be more honest than hunting. There is no sliding scale, no affirmative action, no work quotas, no intermediaries. Just my effort, my skills, my knowledge, and my aim. And I feed my family (and others) with the results. I am a HUNTER, and damn proud of it.
'A global shift towards a vegan diet is vital to save the world from hunger, fuel poverty and the worst impacts of climate change' – http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jun/02/un-report-meat-free-diet
LMAO absolute rubbish. Not a shred of truth to that at all. It cracks me up that you think you are more evolved and now smarter than mother nature. It's actually pathetic, and makes you far more arrogant than I have even been. But whatever, do what you must, all the time knowing you will never succeed.
i can't believe that there are people thinking that teaching our children and psychos how to shoot is an ok idea. Dear, you might be 'accidentally' mistaken for a dear, or someone's girlfriend will be accidentally 'shot' because she 'accidentally' doesn't love the shooter anymore... Don't put evil thoughts and teach evil things our next generation. Didn't you have enough of wars, don't we still enough bloodsuckers who enjoy attacking and killing others in wars pretending it's in the name of their country and their family.... If you were a normal human being, you would think 'how come there are more and more vegans' and how can they survive if it goes against what most people think. Let me try and see – trust me, you won't die. Teach your children something beautiful. Bring them to a slaughterhouse and ask if they want a plate of vegan food or flesh.... Unless you tell them that it is the only way they can survive and brainwash them as someone else brainwashed you, they will never eat meat.
Honey, you a an absolute loon. Bat crap crazy in fact. You are not normal, and therefor have no business whatsoever deeming what is, and what is not normal. Your holier than thou attitude is as pathetic as it gets. You have no concept of freedom whatsoever. You have a very narrow and closed mind. You let your false sense of morality be your guide and you willingly attempt to foist those misguided beliefs on others. Good people, do not do those things, period. You are not good people, end of story.
Can't wait to cook the 15 pound beef shoulder tomorrow in your honor, of yes, it will be dedicated to you. 9 hours of slow roasted perfection, served to people who will leave with big fat smiles on their faces.
July 6, 2012 at 10:55 am |
ONTHunter
So a gun is going to turn an otherwise mentally stable, non violent person into a blood thirsty wife shooting psychopath?? Thats like saying that cars cause drunk drivers. Studies have shown that children that are involved in the outdoors (fishing and hunting) are 80% less likely to become criminals in adulthood.
I will teach my kids to respect the land that we live on. They will know how to shoot, know what wild plants are edible, and they will know basic survival skills. Perhaps you should be teaching your kids about the outdoors and how mother nature works. Perhaps they will have a new found respect for the life they have been given. Teach them that the grocery store is not the only place to get food (plant or meat). I'm not saying take them hunting, its not for everybody. But a weekly hike in the woods can really bring peace to the soul, and coming home with a basket of fresh berries is a great treat.
July 6, 2012 at 11:19 am |
lena
Primal4live and oldhunter, i would never impose my believe if i didn’t feel sorry for the animals who can’t speak for themselves. I can’t believe we, humans, are still torturing and killing them. This is not what humane means (check the meaning of humane) It is also proven that anyone can benefit from a vegan diet. I said what you didn’t want to hear, and now is time for you to revenge. I won’t be surprised if you have the power to drag a few more people to join you….. maybe more than a few. If you and many like you were different, we wouldn’t have killed Jesus, or run after Buddha or prophet Mohamed and other great Beings. We really don’t want to hear anything that makes us change and loose our comfort. This is what we were meant to eat to have a peaceful planet and be healthy: Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. – Genesis 1:29
July 6, 2012 at 1:58 pm |
Primal 4 Life
Look lena you are wrong, period. The ONLY reason you are vegan is to assuage your feelings of guilt, period. It is a proven fact that the hunter gather way of eating is superior to any other. It simply cannot be denied. You are not smarter than mother nature. You never will be smarter than mother nature. You are not evolving at all even though you think you are.
Thankfully at the end of the day you are nobody just like the rest of us and your views will NEVER become the way.
July 6, 2012 at 5:12 pm |
lena
It is the position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada that appropriately planned vegetarian diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12826028
I wonder if all the vegans freaking out about killing deer realize how many animals are killed to protect and harvest the soybean crops that their tofu comes from...
Deer population management goes hand-in-hand with crop farming.
80% of soy and 60% of the grain is fed to animals. It takes about 14 kg of plant protein to produce 1 kg of meat. Growing so much grain requires a lot of tillable land and we use the one near forests (we actually cut the forests to expand our land). Of course the deers will come and eat your crop. A vegan diet requires 7 times less land than a meat-based diet.
http://veg.ca/content/view/133/111/ We souldn't destroy their habitat....
Oh lena... again you know nothing about farming or life in rural areas.
You are misled about how crop-farming actually works. You cannot grow the same crop year after year on the same ground, crops need to be rotated and summer-fallowed. Why not try actually talking to some farmers/ranchers, versus getting your information spoon-fed to you off of vegan websites?
First of all, buy grass-fed meat. Corn isn't good for the cows OR the people that eat them: Corn-fed cattle are more prone to infection and disease because they physiologically designed to eat grass, not grain; it's harder on their bodies to eat grain. Pasture-raised livestock are leaner and higher in Omega-3s; so the meat is healthier.
Also, crops destroy natural habitat for wild animals; where pasture land provides homes/habitat for wild animals. Pasture land is is typically land unfit for farming crops (too hilly, too sandy, too rocky, etc.)
Many smaller independant farmers also do crop-animal rotation. For example, when a fiend is cut, they'll move livestock onto it for a few months. If cattle moved on to stubble need supplemental feed, they get hay, most of which is cut from ditches and waterways, not "taking up land that could be used for crops". (And also helps with the county budget, as they don't have to mow the ditches as often.)
Cattle grazing is actually great for the soil.
And a diet that includes meat in moderation actually uses LESS LAND than a vegan diet.
First of all, buy grass-fed meat. Corn isn't good for the cows OR the people that eat them: Corn-fed cattle are more prone to infection and disease because they physiologically designed to eat grass, not grain; it's harder on their bodies to eat grain. Pasture-raised livestock are leaner and higher in Omega-3s; so the meat is healthier.
Also, crops destroy natural habitat for wild animals; where pasture land provides habitat for wild animals. Pasture land is is typically land unfit for farming crops.
Many smaller independant farmers also do crop-animal rotation. For example, when a field is cut, they'll move livestock onto it for a few months. If livestock moved on to stubble need supplemental feed, they get hay, most of which is cut from ditches and waterways, not "taking up land that could be used for crops".
Cattle grazing is actually great for the soil.
And you cannot grow the same crop year after year on the same ground, crops need to be rotated and summer-fallowed.
A diet that includes meat in moderation actually uses LESS LAND than a vegan diet.
Care to elaborate on what you think is "wrong" in my post?
July 5, 2012 at 12:08 pm |
What?
Cows have no problem digesting grain – as long as they aren't given too much of it. "Eating grain" in-and-of-itself does not make them 'sick'.
Most hay is not produced from ditches and waterways. Some of it is, but it is a small percentage of the whole. Hay may be produced from forage pastures that are allowed to grow, ungrazed, for an extended period of time, but it is frequently produced from land set aside specifically for producing hay. Some of this land is unfit for growing other crops, while some of it would be quite well-suited to crop production.
And – before you ask – at one point during my years of working with hay I put up over 6000 bales in a period of 3 weeks (working 5 days a week), so, yes, I do know what I'm talking about.
July 5, 2012 at 12:21 pm |
AJ
Are you trying to say people don't cut & bale the ditches and waterways for animal food?
Yes, sometimes people do grow a field of hay. I didn't say nobody ever grew hay; I said there were other ways of getting it. And growing hay 1 year on a field will usually last the farmer a couple years, especially if they keep their livestock on pasture the majority of the time.
When we did occasionally grow a field specifically for cutting & baling, it was usually alfalfa and we didn't grow it every year. We got plenty of hay from the ditches and waterways along our cropland to feed/supplement our livestock and horses when they weren't pastured.
July 5, 2012 at 12:23 pm |
What?
Not everybody has the "ditches" and "waterways" to produce even a quarter of the hay they need. Some don't have either of these. If you will re-read my response, I specifically stated that "yes, these are sources of hay, but only a small amount". Maybe more so where you live, but I will guarantee you that this is not the case in a large portion of the country.
July 5, 2012 at 12:28 pm |
AJ
Cows actually do have problems digesting grain (for what it's worth, so do humans!). Their digestive systems aren't equipped to do it. It doesn't make them immediately sickly, but it does cause problems (which would be more evident if the animals grew to older age). Just because something doesn't immediately poison you doesn't mean it's "good"; you can eat McDonalds every day and it won't make you immediately sick, but it will take it's toll over time.
And it increases rates of e.coli and perpetuates different e.coli strands in cattle. Even switching cattle to grass for a week before slaughtering them for food significantly reduces the e.coli in their systems.
July 5, 2012 at 12:32 pm |
BoddaGetta
Ditches? Forgive my ignorance, but I doubt that's required to grow hay. My family does a crop rotation every year on our field. This year it is peanuts. Last year corn. A couple of years before that, we grew hay. The field did not have a ditch surrounding it, or trenches between rows of crops. The amount of earth we had to take away for peanuts is enormous, but we only lightly tilled the soil for clay. While it was growing, cattle in the neighboring field would often stick their heads between gaps in the fence to munch on the growing hay.
A lot of other farmers in my area grew hay, and none of them use this ditch method you're talking about. With the type of grass a typical bale of hay is, I doubt it would grow well with too much water.
July 5, 2012 at 3:37 pm |
BoddaGetta
AJ
I think you're searching for the term "corn," not grain. Ruminants cannot live on grain alone, but then again, neither can people. But both of our biochemistries require metabolites and nutritions only grains can give us. Thankfully, our digestion process is less complex. Corn doesn't provide much nutritional value to us or cattle, and too much can upset digestion and overall health.
July 5, 2012 at 3:43 pm |
lena
the main cause of worldwide land degradation is over-grazing. Land degradation leads to loss of biodiversity:
So we should kill and eat more animals to prevent this bio-disaster from happening? I'm in!!!
July 6, 2012 at 11:24 am |
lena
how much is moderation? if we would free up the land from raising livestock and grow feed for them (a vegan uses 7 times less land....) we would be able to affort to rotate our crop and also let our land rest and regain its nutrients naturally.
It doesn't matter, either we buy the meat or it will just be exported to someone who will. Your opinion doesn't run the country, the all mighty dollar does.
July 6, 2012 at 11:27 am |
lena
don't raise, don't kill, don't export.... i'm sure all the people in poor countries don't need your meat.... They need some rice or corn or vegetables that they can get easily if meat eaters wouldn't eat for 10.
July 6, 2012 at 2:27 pm |
ONTHunter
OK so the farmers who have raised cattle, pigs, chickens, etc for generations are supposed to pack it in and get an office job? And don't say they can start growing crops on their land, because farms that are used for raising animals for slaughter are on average 20% of the size of a crop farm. How are they supposed to make a living?
July 6, 2012 at 6:23 pm |
Griz
Great post! Most people will not admit this but sportsman are the number 1 source of funding for wildlife and habitat preservation. Through the The self imposed taxes on hunting, fishing and firearms to joining conservation organization like Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation and Ducks Unlimited Sportsman contribute billions of dollars a year. This money goes to preserve land that benefits all species not just hunt able game. The Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation has saved millions of acres forever in purchase and land trusts and has reintroduced elk back into areas where they were irradiated hundreds of years ago. Keep up the good work and Good Hunting
This article is a cute little fantasy, but hunting is not a remotely viable food source for a large percentage of the population, nor is it ethical in any way.
Running them over at night with a car is more ethical? Poisoning them is more ethical? Shooting them with birth control is more ethical? I guess you're not a farmer, either.
why run them over, poison them, shoot them with birth control or hunt them. LEAVE THEM ALONE!!!! just stay away from their flesh... it's no different than yours, why eat it? Is it just because you learned from your ancestors?
lena, you obviously have zero experience with how it really is to live in rural areas with deer.
People don't hit deer with their cars on purpose, it isn't a fun experience hitting a deer! People hit deer because deer run out in front of them on the highway.
Leaving deer alone would have a huge negative impact on food prices. Deer already do OVER $100 MILLION worth of damage to crops each year; if the population was left unchecked, that number would be significantly higher.
Leaving deer alone would cause them be overpopulation and to die out due to starvation and disease, now THAT is a horrible way to die. And wasteful.
Not to mention it can also spread diseases for people and their pets; deer ticks spread Lyme disease and more deer means more deer ticks.
July 5, 2012 at 10:47 am |
V_1
lena.... the analogies you keep using are getting sicker and sicker.
July 5, 2012 at 11:10 am |
lena
Nature is perfect; it keeps everything in balance as long as humans don't interfere
July 5, 2012 at 11:12 am |
lena
v_1, don't read them ;)
July 5, 2012 at 11:19 am |
AJ
lena, you're posting on the internet, so you obviously have electricity. And probably a house/apartment. Perhaps a car. You eat food grown from crops. Etc.
Modern civilization "interferes", period. You are part of that. To "not interfere" is impossible, and to ignore our interference is irresponsible. Nature's way of controlling animal population is with predators; and when predators have been pushed out by humans, we need to do something about that. Re-introducing predators isn't feasible (expensive, establishing populations is difficult, many re-introduced and re-located animals die within the first couple months, etc.), nor do people in suburbia want mountain lions wandering through their backyard.
July 5, 2012 at 11:30 am |
lena
at least we should interfere as little as possible.... why destroy it so much when we can do something else instead. Of course we can't live in a city without electricity, but we can be vegans. Producing a pound of beef causes far more greenhouse gas emissions and other pollution than driving for 3 hours while leaving all the lights on back home.
July 5, 2012 at 1:37 pm |
Primal 4 Life
In one post lena claims mother nature is perfect, however, in every other she claims to be superior in knowledge then mother nature.
All you can do is laugh.
July 6, 2012 at 5:16 pm |
Amused
"lena
at least we should interfere as little as possible.... why destroy it so much when we can do something else instead. Of course we can't live in a city without electricity, but we can be vegans. Producing a pound of beef causes far more greenhouse gas emissions and other pollution than driving for 3 hours while leaving all the lights on back home.
July 5, 2012 at 1:37 pm"
I challenge you to breath in the exhaust of the most fuel economic car for three hours and IF you're still alive try the same thing with that pound of beef and see how things turn out. I've never seen the caution on a package of beef that said, "Warning, exhalation of beef exhaust may be hazardous to your health. Only use in well ventilated area!"
December 1, 2012 at 12:10 am |
Truth™@Mike
What in your hunting experience has caused you to draw this conclusion? Have you even ever been in the woods? Or are you basically taking the position of "I have never done this activity, but I am nonetheless a self proclaimed expert on it"...
Why bring up the ethics debate again?? Why do vegetarians feel the need to put little comments out there to suit there agenda?? You are right, there is not enough wild game out there to sustain everyone. I think we have already covered the "ethics" topic, so I won't bother with a rebuttal.
If 7 billion people in this planet join the hunt, there would be no animals left. We now have to hunt each other which would amount to "You know what". The real question is : When men were hunter gatherers thousands of years ago eating meat made a lot of sense. It was each man for himself. Today when you have a complex civilization with a large population, may be giving up meat may be the best thing to do.
have you asked yourself why? Maybe you will find a lot of c…. unpleasant things about yourself – arrogance; shallowness; unwillingness to accept something new that goes against your desires to be comfortable even it is on the expense of others; too much ego to accept the fact that you might be wrong; too selfish; too stubborn; or not intelligent enough to grasp the concept and look into it further…. At least half of the sick people in hospitals would be healed if they were fed a vegan diet and if there were less peopl like you in the medical field who don't even want to hear about it.
I find your comments about being arrogant and unwilling to accept that you are wrong funny. Anytime a vegan starts speaking about their food choices I notice the same tendencies in them...
As for healing half the people in hospitals by switching them to a vegan diet, can you give me some peer reviewed proof of this that is undisputed? some studies indicate meat may be bad for you, but other studies indicate that meat is an essential part of our diets, especially for children that are growing and need plenty of protein. I've not heard about any study that says you will heal half the people in hospitals by limiting their diets...please tell me where I can find this information?!??
July 5, 2012 at 10:09 am |
lena
we are also told that milk is a good source of calcium, but it turns out it causes osteoporosis instead. "Every time you consume milk you erode bone-making cells, increasing the risk of osteoporosis." http://www.yourmedicaldetective.com/public/Milk_Revealed_As_Main_Cause_Of_Osteoporosis_in_New_Book.cfm
We researched only the meat-based diet and tried to make the best of it. There is plenty of information of the benefits of a vegan diet verses a meat diet on the web. A vegan diet comes with all the nutrients a meat-diet has and more. Of course, only recent studies show that. Here is a good article about B12 http://www.naturalnews.com/029531_vitamin_B12_vegan.html
July 5, 2012 at 10:36 am |
What?
@ lena
You haven't cited anything 'reputable' in your B12 reference. This is informaton pulled by a writer from an "opinion piece" written by a chiropractor – a group who is well-known for their in-depth nutritional knowledge.
There are B12 "pre-cursors" found in plants, but no research has yet shown, to my knowledge, than either bacteria in the body or enzymes in the human body can successfully convert these to a form that will function as B12.
If you're so convinced that this is true, why don't you go ahead and do it, and get back to us on how that worked out for you? Cut out any 'supplements' you may be taking, don't use any fortified or enriched flour (or any products that contain them), and no yeast extract of any kind. Get back to us in 30 days and let us know you're doing. "Put your money where your mouth is", if you believe this as strongly as you talk like you do.
I once read on the internet that Ben Franklin once said not to believe everything you read on the internet.
July 5, 2012 at 12:01 pm |
Seriously?
yourmedicaldetective.com & naturalnews.com are not peer reviewed science information. In fact, I've read articles on natural news that cherry pick phrases to back themselves up while ignoring what the cited study actually concluded was safe (which obviously was not what they wanted to hear and relay). I've even emailed them pointing it out and their editors just responded with a we don't write the articles so we won't edit out the information. Find a real scientific article instead of these online sources written by people who don't even understand the scientific method much less have the knowledge to recommend a healthy lifestyle other than what they *think* might be good for you.
July 5, 2012 at 12:20 pm |
lena
My daughter (21 years old now) and I have been vegans for more than 7 years and we didn't take any vitamins and so far we are ok. I don't drink soy milk or fortified breads – my food includes mostly simple foods prepared at home. During these years I didn’t get sick and I have a strong immune system (I also know it from a hematologist. Btw, I wish you could see the red and white blood cells of a meat eater compared to a vegan… just by looking at the clotted red cells of a meat eater one can see clearly than not much of oxygen, B12 and other vitamins reach the cells)
I also feel more energetic than ever and most women my age (and look younger of course). My daughter didn't take vitamins after she did her own research on a vegan diet and concluded that it is not necessary to have supplements if you eat correctly – simple, nutritional foods. I’m not saying though people shouldn’t take vitamins. If you’re thinking that you are going to get sick if you don’t take them, you should, otherwise you will become sick, even if you are a meat eater.
July 5, 2012 at 2:12 pm |
lena
she also travelled the world for 1 year on a vegan diet and no vitamins. She went to Nepal, India, Asia, Russia, Italy.... it is really not that hard to be vegan
July 5, 2012 at 4:30 pm |
ONTHunter
Thats a pretty good self description lena.
I could say the same thing to you about hunting. Why not try it? Why not see what it feels like to provide for your family without having to go to the grocery store? Scared you might learn something new? Scared you might enjoy it? Too ignorant to see other people's point of view?? This is exactly why no one respects what you say. Even your fellow vegans are disagreeing with you.
July 5, 2012 at 5:22 pm |
What?
Lena, what kind of starches do yo eat? Do you eat pasta?
July 6, 2012 at 12:19 pm |
sam stone
either giving it up or drastically reducing consumption
Sam, I agree, the amount of meat being consumed is unnecessary to sustain human life. A well balanced diet that includes a moderate portion of meat is not only going to improve health, but improve the food market as a whole. People buy processed food because it is cheap. If people ate less fresh meat, the demand would fall and so would the prices, thus making better food available to a broader market. Its win win for everyone!
glad to see we're on the same page.
V_1, AB hunter :)
July 5, 2012 at 1:17 pm |
BoddaGetta
Actually, there would be enough. There are plenty of certain animals. I know that in my state, white-tailed deer outnumber humans almost 3-1, and I don't live in a sparsley populated area.
Zealous vegans [not all vegans] drive me, a growth biologist, nuts. My cousin was one of those health nuts, and she would constantly link me sources with no authoritative figure in the "study." Most often, the articles [like the ones linked in replies below] used one of the No.1 no-nos in general scientific statistis–they always made a correlation/causation basis to their conclusion. NEVER do this. It's the equivilent of noticing a lineup of obese people are all wearing khaki shorts. Therefore, since they are all wearing the same shorts, those shorts must cause obesity. Similar to that cat litter scare story the other day.
Our brains take up the majority of our metabolism. You can get the proteins needed for the brain from vegetation, however, the amount we'd need is double to triple the amount a full-grown, 1500lb cow would need.
I would take zealous vegans [again, I'm saying out-of-the-norm. Many people don't offend me with their diet choices, so long as it's not baseless logic] more seriously if they linked me proof of their reasoning from cites like NCBI.gov, or a .edu study with a detailed observational study and a wide sample size. The lack of biochemistry knowledge of some "nutritionists" that advise people such as raw food eaters is appalling.
How about "it's your decision so make it and enjoy it". What's the point of living your life according to the opinions of nut job snobbly types? Let the PETA crowd get back to searching for where they left their brains.
Congrats, Rationalization Woman... you're still killing animals, you're still adversely impacting the environment, and you've managed to convince yourself that you're somehow more holy than everyone else. Great job!
The delusional fantasy that you're not harming the environment dove-tails nicely with the smugness of someone who thinks she is "self-sufficient". Only problem is, you're not. Did you build the gun you used to shoot whatever it is you ate? Did you forge the knife you gutted the animals with yourself, after discovering iron without being told what it was, how to find and extract it, how to make a fire with no tools made by anyone else? Didn't think so.
As for the notion that it's not harmful to the environment, baloney. The animals you kill are removed from the food-web, resulting in an imbalance, an increase in the population of whatever they were either feeding on or competing for those resources with, which then propagates through the web, doing a little erosion of a sort, all along the way. The fact that you can't see the effect immediately or don't realize you're having one DOESN'T mean it's not happening. If you have any questions, consult Dr. Thomas Malthus. News flash, lady... your hunting DOES have an environmental impact.
The notion you, unlike the "factory farms" you deride so snootily don't waste anything is also nonsense. Factory farms don't waste anything either. They're run by businessmen, and any part of anything they had to spend money on wasted is money left on the table, and they're experts at NOT doing that. Take "pink slime" for instance... we all know now, what that is, right? For anyone who doesn't, it's the insider nick-name for scraps of meat that were too small for it to make economic sense to try to get off the bones mechanically, with knives, so they do it chemically, using a 'knife' called ammonia, to rip meat from bone at the molecular level. Then they (one would hope) remove or neutralize the (poisonous) ammonia, leaving just the meat, which is (or at least was, 'till word got out about this practice,) added to other meat products (like hamburgers,) and sold to people in stores and restaurants. Now that people found out and freaked out over it, they've returned to the older practice of only feeding it to animals, since the customers fled when people found out what unholy "meat" they were being fed. The reaction was similar to how you might expect people to respond on finding out what the main ingredient in Soylent Green is... in the case of pink slime, I don't think it's the source or method that alarms people, as much as the lack of confidence that ALL the poison is in fact being removed.
The next self-delusion I'd like to try disabusing you of, is the notion of hunting's "light environmental impact". The reason hunters appear to have a lighter environmental impact is that there are relatively few of you doing it. If EVERYONE got his or her food the same way, all the little woodland creatures whose blood you gleefully splatter yourself with as you rip their still-warm carcasses open with your Bowie knife, (or do you use a machete?) would be rapidly driven to extinction. Farming food helps conserve nature by limiting the amount of the land set aside for feeding... what is it now, 8 billion people? Just look at the American Bison... hunted to near extinction... (or are they all gone now?) by people LIKE YOU, and that happened when there were FAR fewer people to feed than now.
As for the meat being healthier, you don't know that. You don't know what poisons or toxins or parasites might have been in the food or water that animal ate and drank, there is NO quality control, and unless you're also certified as a kosher butcher, a food-safety/health inspector, or a veterinarian, how can you tell if the animal you shot or caught was diseased?
Can you tell which fowl has H5N1, or which hoofed mammal has some kind of encephalitis, or meningitis, or rabies? Doubtful. People malign factory farms, but without them, many would starve, since they help keep prices down to within the reach of most people, and the product is generally of at least fairly decent quality. (At least in our country it is.) If you want better, you can always shop at Whole Paycheck... or the organic/free-range section that more and more supermarkets have nowadays, or go to a farmers' market.
As for the idea that they're not miserable, I'm sure that's the last thing that goes through a deer's brain, or whatever animals you murder, before they die, as they limp along, bleeding to death from the wounds you gleefully inflicted, that they're SO glad to be killed by you, and that they weren't subjected to the misery of a factory farm. If they had the capacity to consider how much better off they were, they'd probably still resent being murdered and butchered to make your dinner.
However... THEY'RE ANIMALS, genius... they don't think abstractly, and while I won't say they don't have feelings, after a fashion, I don't think you can argue that most herbivores are, as a group, are very bright. (You're not hunting wolves and bobcats, are you? They're reputed to be slightly more clever, but I doubt there's a really big difference.)
As for the tiny amount of money you kick-in for the privilege of hunting, do you really think that covers the costs of woodland maintenance, fire-protection, etc.? It doesn't. It just reduces the number of people who kill animals for kicks, and to get trophies, by making it NOT free.
Anyway, pat yourself on the back, Lily. You're helping to "destroy the Earth," just the same as anyone else, but in your case it's ironic since you think you're saving it. Well, you're not. Maybe if you used no electricity or man-made products, living in a naturally occurring cave that nothing else was occupying when you found it, hunting and gathering as our ancestors did with their bare hands and stone tools 25,000 years ago... but I doubt very much you're doing that, since most caves don't come with an INTERNET connection, so how could you have posted this self-serving drivel to CNN.com?
Lie to yourself all you want, but anyone with any brains can see right through your self-congratulating, self-righteous, smug, annoying little post. You are a murderer of your fellow animals, you're no better than the rest of us, and when you hunt on your own you take food off the tables of farmers, ranchers, cowboys, etc., who collectively bear all the responsibility, and face 100% of the risk of making their livelihoods from being the ones who feed the world.
Get over yourself, lady... you're no better than anyone else, just more deluded. You've been hanging out with the rural Oregonians too long.
Talk about being smug, you need to get over yourself. Did she build the gun,forge the knife,smelt the iron, really? Did you build any of the crap from which you are pontificating to us all? I believe it is pretty well universally recognized that one generation stands on the shoulders of the previous, you are no different or you'd be scribbling your grand expose in dust with a stick.
@Eman de Riuqer, I would like to be polite about this, but your post is so full of inaccurate stupidities, and inarticulate loathing, that you make that hope impossible
".The delusional fantasy that you're not harming the environment dove-tails nicely with the smugness of someone who thinks she is "self-sufficient". Only problem is, you're not. Did you build the gun you used to shoot whatever it is you ate? Did you forge the knife you gutted the animals with yourself, after discovering iron without being told what it was, how to find and extract it, how to make a fire with no tools made by anyone else? Didn't think so"
"Definition of SELF-SUFFICIENT
1
: able to maintain oneself or itself without outside aid : capable of providing for one's own needs " I see nothing her to require I make my own tools.
"Synonyms: independent, self-dependent, self-reliant, self-subsistent, self-subsisting, self-supported, self-supporting, self-sustained, self-sustaining"
Another key word here "Maintain" main·tain verb \mān-ˈtān, mən-\
transitive verb
1
: to keep in an existing state (as of repair, efficiency, or validity) : preserve from failure or decline " I see nothing here that says you need to rebuild from the ground up for every action or thought. Quite the opposite in fact.
"As for the notion that it's not harmful to the environment, baloney. The animals you kill are removed from the food-web, resulting in an imbalance, an increase in the population of whatever they were either feeding on or competing for those resources with, which then propagates through the web, doing a little erosion of a sort, all along the way. The fact that you can't see the effect immediately or don't realize you're having one DOESN'T mean it's not happening. If you have any questions, consult Dr. Thomas Malthus. News flash, lady... your hunting DOES have an environmental impact." You are at least partially correct here. There is an effect. When there is more food and less predators, births increase, when there is less food and more predators, births decrease, and this process has been going on since the birth of the world. Does hunting have an adverse effect on this process? No, we are part of the process, and as natural as breathing. Only our weapons have changed over the years, but Bambi is just as dead from a rock from a sling as from a high power rifle bullet.
" Take "pink slime" for instance... we all know now, what that is, right? For anyone who doesn't, it's the insider nick-name for scraps of meat that were too small for it to make economic sense to try to get off the bones mechanically, with knives, so they do it chemically, using a 'knife' called ammonia, to rip meat from bone at the molecular level. Then they (one would hope) remove or neutralize the (poisonous) ammonia, leaving just the meat, which is (or at least was, 'till word got out about this practice,) added to other meat products (like hamburgers,) and sold to people in stores and restaurants. Now that people found out and freaked out over it, they've returned to the older practice of only feeding it to animals, since the customers fled when people found out what unholy "meat" they were being fed. The reaction was similar to how you might expect people to respond on finding out what the main ingredient in Soylent Green is... in the case of pink slime, I don't think it's the source or method that alarms people, as much as the lack of confidence that ALL the poison is in fact being removed." Here you are making my point FOR me. People do not trust processed food as much as natural food because it is profit driven to compromise safety. All those safety inspectors are there to make sure the rules are followed, and the quality meet the MINIMUM standard. I have a vested interest in making sure the meat is good, as I and my family are the ones eating it. And after 40 years as a hunter, I can certainly tell good meat from bad as well as any butcher. If I use a processor, he HAS been trained and tested, and certified by the State, same as any butcher. And beyond that is a testing lab available for hunters if there is any doubt about any animal. You, Eman, do not know what you are talking about.
"The next self-delusion I'd like to try disabusing you of, is the notion of hunting's "light environmental impact". The reason hunters appear to have a lighter environmental impact is that there are relatively few of you doing it. If EVERYONE got his or her food the same way, all the little woodland creatures whose blood you gleefully splatter yourself with as you rip their still-warm carcasses open with your Bowie knife, (or do you use a machete?) would be rapidly driven to extinction. Farming food helps conserve nature by limiting the amount of the land set aside for feeding... what is it now, 8 billion people? Just look at the American Bison... hunted to near extinction... (or are they all gone now?) by people LIKE YOU, and that happened when there were FAR fewer people to feed than now."
""The next self-delusion I'd like to try disabusing you of, is the notion of hunting's "light environmental impact". The reason hunters appear to have a lighter environmental impact is that there are relatively few of you doing it" Let's start with this nonsense. Here is a small fun fact for you. There are more registered hunters (that's guys who must buy permits to hunt public lands or to hunt someone else's land) (not guys like me, who hunt their own land,) in just 3 average eastern states , than fighters in the ENTIRE US MILITARY. We make such a small impact, you did not have any clue to the real facts.
" If EVERYONE got his or her food the same way, all the little woodland creatures whose blood you gleefully splatter yourself with as you rip their still-warm carcasses open with your Bowie knife, (or do you use a machete?) would be rapidly driven to extinction" Typical PETA crap. Several species that WERE on the brink have been brought back to healthy herd sizes by hunter/ conservation groups. And efforts are ongoing world wide. With no help or thanks from you.
"Just look at the American Bison... hunted to near extinction... (or are they all gone now?" Since you are obviously speaking out of your hind end without any attempt at accuracy, and no real knowledge, American Bison, commonly called Buffalo, are alive and well and being raised like cattle out west. They were brought back from the brink by,( dare I say it) Hunter/ conservation groups. (and Buffalo Hump is delicious!) Buffalo were endangered on two fronts, due to what was called "Market Hunting" (now outlawed)and the military's need to remove the Indian's food supply (that is another piece of war history)
" all the little woodland creatures whose blood you gleefully splatter yourself with as you rip their still-warm carcasses open with your Bowie knife, (or do you use a machete?)"
"Synonyms: blithesome, festive, gay, merry, jocose, jocular, jocund, jolly, jovial, laughing, mirthful, sunny"You can bet your ass I'm gleeful (grinning) a good harvest/ hunt is something to celebrate. They are still warm, because they must be gutted quickly to prevent damage to the meat or added waste. And while you could use a Bowie knife (it has been done when that is all you have) but a machete is a stupid choice of tool better suited to trimming trees and sneaking up on corn stalks (quivering in their roots) We use smaller knives for the skinning and gutting process. A very small knife called a gutting hook is used to open them up like a zipper! Works great and very little mess. flexible skinning knives are used to remove the hide.(These knives are much like fillet knives used on fish) and very sharp knives called boning knives are used to separate the joints. followed by rigid fixed blade knives for the meat slicing. We are workmen who prefer to use the right tool for the job.
"and the product is generally of at least fairly decent quality. (At least in our country it is.) If you want better, you can always shop at Whole Paycheck... or the organic/free-range section that more and more supermarkets have nowadays, or go to a farmers' market." Free Range is exactly what Wild Game is you blithering idiot!
"As for the idea that they're not miserable, I'm sure that's the last thing that goes through a deer's brain, or whatever animals you murder, before they die, as they limp along, bleeding to death from the wounds you gleefully inflicted, that they're SO glad to be killed by you, and that they weren't subjected to the misery of a factory farm. If they had the capacity to consider how much better off they were, they'd probably still resent being murdered and butchered to make your dinner." If I do my job well, the last thing to go through Bambi"s is my bullet. And he never knew I was there.
"As for the tiny amount of money you kick-in for the privilege of hunting, do you really think that covers the costs of woodland maintenance, fire-protection, etc.? It doesn't. It just reduces the number of people who kill animals for kicks, and to get trophies, by making it NOT free." Do you have even a passing acquaintance with reality? Hunters generate BILLIONS or dollars each year in fees, taxes (self-imposed) waterfowl stamps, single use park fees (most of which we paid for their creation in the first place) and we buy thousands of acres each year through conservation groups, for the ongoing creation of wetlands, and animal habitats.
As for hunting trophies, I hunt meat. If it happens to have an impressive rack, that will go up on the wall as a reminder of the hunt, but doe meat is sweater, and more tender, and is a better way to manage a herd size.
"Lie to yourself all you want, but anyone with any brains can see right through your self-congratulating, self-righteous, smug, annoying little post. You are a murderer of your fellow animals, you're no better than the rest of us, and when you hunt on your own you take food off the tables of farmers, ranchers, cowboys, etc., who collectively bear all the responsibility, and face 100% of the risk of making their livelihoods from being the ones who feed the world." You clearly have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Farmers and ranchers have problems with too many deer, and can apply for nuisance permits, which allow them to kill even more deer outside of the normal hunting season! In some places, these permits allow for unlimited killing of deer because of the crop damage. The same crops that you rely upon to eat. Your dinner was protected from harm, by the killing of my dinner That makes you a hypocrite.
Now, climb off your child's rocking horse, and learn a few facts before you spout off again. It just makes you look quite stupid.
I AM A HUNTER, AND DAMN PROUD OF IT.
I am a Blackfeet Indian (enrolled) so am more genetically predisposed to hunt large game than most, and live both in rural Washington and remote Montana. Even so, it still isn't practical to live on hunted meat. Really, this is an absurd article, just fluffy nonsense. Just holier than thou crap. If even a tiny percentage of Americans took this advice, the woods would be bare of game, ecosystems would collapse, and idiots with guns would be shooting each other wholesale by accident. And I don't believe for a second that this girl actually practices what she preaches.
"so am more genetically predisposed to hunt large game than most." And so I should have stopped reading there but wanted to see what other preposterous BS you posted.
You are predisposed to it because of your race? Just because the native americans were evolutionary behind compared to Europe and thus, were living behind the times until about 350 years ago does not mean you are predisposed to hunting.
All humans were built to be hunters. Some have just lost touch with their culture.
I treat animals with the utmost respect. I respect their need to exist, and I respect what they provide me and my family. There is always a moment after the kill where I reflect on what has just happened. There is far more to hunting than just the kill. Its about being in the outdoors, being one with nature, and enjoying all that nature has to offer. That means incorporating wild blueberries, fiddle heads, dandelions, mushrooms, green onions, raspberries, blackberries, and maple syrup into the fresh wild meals that I cook.
I hunt and eat animals, but I respect them. In my undergraduate program [I'm a growth biologist PhD student], we were made to walk through the cattle chutes and arenas of a local slaughterhouse to empathize with our fellow living being, to see how tense or relaxed the atmosphere was and to make it more easy for the cows. A happy, content cow is a moveable one. And a delicious one, if that's its purpose later on. If a farmer mistreats his livestock, his product won't be as much quantity or quality.
Ever had a free-range chicken egg vs a cooped-up, boxed hen's chicken egg? The difference is noticeable, even in appearance.
I hunt once a year with my father when I go home to visit him for Thanksgiving. We kill a deer–sometimes buck, sometimes doe, none young–and split the meat after its processed. We always shoot the deer in the surest spot to kill him quickly and with the least amount of pain. We have a moment of silence out of respect for the animal who gave its life so we can have something to live off of. We take it home and process, leaving almost nothing behind. We've even used the innards to make delicious boudin, or sausage. Our neighbors love to make neck roasts. None of it is completely wasted.
I'd say that's respectful. And as I mentioned above, deer are overpopulated in my area, so I'm helping out the overall local ecosystem by population check. I won't deny that humans are overpopulated as well. But that's why I take birth control and participate in family planning. Cannot say the same for most of my acquaintances, though...
Hunting has pretty much no validity as a realistic food source. According to Fish and Game, the average success rate for deer hunters is around 25%. That's for ONE animal, in an entire season. Once you've added up the cost of weapon, ammunition, supplies, clothing, permits...and taken into account the fairly low likelihood you'll actually bag anything? Yeah. It's silly to think hunting could supply the bulk of anyone's diet. Hunting is a sporting pursuit, just be honest about it.
"One animal in an entire season"....you realize that one white tail deer(the smallest of the mule/axis/white tail/Stag line) can yield between 50-100 pounds of meat? That is a very substantial amount for a family. I have several freezers full of meat I have harvested myself. This is not a one time affair, nor is it uncommon with my friends and neighbors. To be honest, it sounds like you don't have much insight.
Mark – so if the average success rate is around 25%, that would mean one deer every four years or so on average. 50 to 100 pounds of meat is not going to feed a family for 4 years.
Cite your 25% success rate claim. Name the Game and Fish source you are quoting.
July 5, 2012 at 12:57 am |
Mark
Clearly stated in my response, I based my reply on one animal per season, not your unsubstantiated claim of 25% success rate, in which you did not clarify against how many hunting seasons it was based upon. 25% could mean that one out of four animals hunted in a season was harvested. EIther you can't articulate your thoughts, or you don't understand the numbers you are reading. Again, I don't think you have much insight, just some random statistics. You also make a very unsubstantiated claim in regards to the costs of supplies, which I'm pretty sure is more guess work on your part. Do you want to put some numbers and sources behind it?
July 5, 2012 at 1:19 am |
ONTHunter
That's one animal Todd. Deer are not the only animals that can be hunted. I also hunt bears, grouse, rabbits, squirrels, ducks, and geese. If I don't get a deer one season, no big deal. I have plenty of meat in the freezer that most certainly makes a difference in my family's food budget. Then there's fishing. I do not buy fish from the store, I go out and catch fresh walleye, bass, pike, perch, trout, and salmon. Some may think that hunting and fishing is unnecessary with today's supermarkets, but some people like knowing that they are providing for their family. There is a certain satisfaction that comes from knowing that you put the effort in to successfully harvest that animal.
July 5, 2012 at 9:40 am |
really????????
I must be one heck of a hunter then...I generally get three whitetails a year, which feeds my family for most of the year. With the other hunting I do we never purchase meat for our family.
Are you kidding me? My primary meat source is venison. I hunt deer and other game, and i feed my family with it. My wife and daughter both prefer venison over grocery beef. I am successful because i do my homework and I scout and read the habits of the animals. I have not purchased grocery meat in over 14 years. I bowhunt and gun hunt. I enjoy the hunt as well, I enjoy the challenge of having to outsmart a cunning and intelligent animal. I am not out there to kill an animal just to kill it. all HUNTERS are the same way, but just like every race there are bad apples.
Hence the gathering in "Hunting/Gathering". Man shall not live by meat alone. However, Mark is correct. A small deer can supply alot of meat for a family. A garden in the yard for veggies & fruit – can them up for the winter. Big savings in the long run and a diet our evolutionary trail has led us to which is healthiest for us. Many members of my husband's family hunts and we enjoy the best meat there is. Deer, Elk, Caribou, etc. Nothing is wasted. We honor the animals we kill & eat – I am proud to belong to a tradition passed down by our ancestors.
There are multiple seasons in some states. Buck/doe, rifle/bow. It's possible to have a freezer full of meat every winter without going to the store. Don't forget bear season, and fishing in the spring and summer.
You're right, more on that here: http://exposingthebiggame.wordpress.com/2012/07/12/the-day-seven-billion-people-decided-to-hunt-their-own-dinner/#comment-743
Biodynamic agriculture–where the chickens till the land and provide the fertilizer, for example, can be sustainable. The problem I have with hunting is that most hunters I know are not as conscientious as those you've met.
Let me get this straight eating meat is unethical because it involves deliberate killing of a being. And killing is cruel and involves suffering. So...
... Where do those who are the vanguard of the well being of beings stand on the abortion of a human fetus?
Hunting animals for food is natural. I choose not to do it. The raising and killing of some farm animals is cruelty, such as pigs and chickens. Animals in a slaughterhouse scream when they are killed. If you don't think so, go live near one when they are shrieking in the night. I'm a vegetarian, wannabe vegan. In the long run, humans are a temporary species on the Earth, like the dinosaurs, only we probably won't last a 100 million years because we'll destroy our environment, and the environment of a lot of hapless animals. The Earth doesn't need us. Stop arguing and do what you think is right. It won't matter in the long run.
'The raising and killing of some farm animals is cruelty, such as pigs and chickens'
Not necessarily. Just like other areas of life, it depends on the person/farmer. This applies to hunters as well. Some hunters take more than one shot, if the first shot doesnt kill the animal. For example, I'v seen deer shot, and run off, only to die a slow and agonizing death. Yes, game meat can be healtier to eat, but killing the animal is not always humane as some would have you believe.
Hunting has never been natural for humans as we have always been scavengers! Our ancestors for millions of years ate fruit, nuts and berries! We have only eaten meat for about the last 10,000 years! Our hunting skills are, with most of us, non-existent! We don't have large fangs to tear the flesh from a cow or other animal nor sharp claws to help subdue prey. Our intestines are longer than carnivores intestines, meaning we do not rid our bodies quickly of the toxins and harmful bacteria in meat! The final test for those who think they are in any way carnivorous is, do you salivate when you see road kill? If not then you are not a natural meat eating animal!
Hunting has never been natural for humans as we have always been scavengers! Our ancestors for millions of years ate fruit, nuts and berries! We have only eaten meat for about the last 10,000 years! Our hunting skills are, with most of us, non-existent! We don't have large fangs to tear the flesh from a cow or other animal nor sharp claws to help subdue prey. Our intestines are longer than carnivores intestines, meaning we do not rid our bodies quickly of the toxins and harmful bacteria in meat! The final test for those who think they are in any way carnivorous is, do you salivate when you see road kill? If not then you are not a natural meat eating animal!
"Our ancestors for millions of years ate fruit, nuts and berries" and guess what? YOU STILL CAN! That is because we are OMNIVORES! That means we can eat most everything other animals eat. 10,000 years of eating meat?Why then it a tradition as well as tasty!
"Our hunting skills are, with most of us, non-existent! We don't have large fangs to tear the flesh" I don't know about you, but I Have Canine teeth for that very reason, to tear meat. And if you doubt my hunting skills, by all means, put on the Bambi costume and protest hunting this fall, in the woods, at about 40 yards. ;) (I hunt with a bow too.)
"The final test for those who think they are in any way carnivorous is, do you salivate when you see road kill?" YES! many hunters are on lists to call for roadkill deer. it also goes to open shelters and food pantries. And that deer doesn't cost me $100. in permits, fees, taxes, gas, ammo and processing. To let it go to waste (as you do) would be shameful.
So climb off your high horse and learn something. Hunters are the greatest conservationists you will ever meet. And some of the best people. My Pastor leads a hunt every year.
We've only eating GRAIN for about the last 10,000 years.
We've eaten MEAT for MILLIONS of years. In fact, not a single species in our genus have been herbivores, all have been omnivores.
Our digestive tract is made to digest both plant an animal matter. We are OMNIVORES. We do not have the digestive tract of a carnivore because carnivores cannot efficiently digest plant matter; a longer digestive tract is required for both herbivores and omnivores to be able to eat plants. You had a correct fact about digestive system length (that carnivores have shorter digestive tracts), but then your post drew false conclusions.
We evolved to use tools. Just because we don't look like apex-carnivores doesn't mean we aren't supposed to eat meat. Many omnivores don't have "claws". Did you know that chickens are pigs are omnivores?
As far as "natural instinct", if you raise a carnivore in captivity, it doesn't know how to hunt either. In fact, when I switched my dogs from dry dog kibble to a raw diet, they didn't even recognize meat as food at first! They had learned since they were puppies that food was little brown dry nuggets.
Vegetarians/Vegans, whatever you claim to be, this is what I have trouble understanding, why can't you just shut up? Most people eat meat. Homosapiens have been eating meat since the dawn of man. You aren't going to be able to stop the majority of people from eating meat. So why all the racket? Calm down and realize that no one is forcing you to eat meat. Do i personally believe some of the ways farm animals are treated are wrong? Yes, i honestly do. If you want to fight against the way some corporate farms treat chickens I'll be the first to sign the petition. If you want to complain about veal, I'll probably be on your side. Just don't tell me I shouldn't eat something just because it had to be killed to eat. Do you not kill a head of lettuce when you eat it? Does a carrot not die when it is cooked? Look around you, animals are eating other animals all over the place.
there are animals who kill other animals (I always had a hard time watching how they do that) and there are animals who don't. We can choose to what category we want to belong to. I find animals who don't eat animals more peaceful, calm, relaxing...
Humans are OMNIVORES. You cannot "chose" to be a herbivore; that is something set on the species-level, not the individual level.
Even if you choose to be vegan and eliminate all animal products from your diet and get those nutrients from artificial supplements instead, you are still BIOLOGICALLY AN OMNIVORE and your body still has the same nutritional requirements.
JayWalker, you say we should shut up? When we we see wrong, we speak up. I think what you are really saying is that no one should challenge your beliefs because they are right and true. Obviously those who disagree you have no right to voice an opinion. As much as I hate killing animals and very much dislike the hunters who kill them, I would never suggest they shut up.
Dude, the lame statements regarding vegetables feeling pain are, well, lame. I am a vegetarian, and I don't make big statements. My spouse eats meat, and that's a choice. Not all vegetarians make noise.
i think i made the eatocracy editors mad – they posted a big article on how to grill meat.... typical.... Hopefully one day they will realize that they are in denial.... Can someone actually at cnn do a research and post good, healthy vegan meal recipes? or post information about what vegan celebrities eat? or how to try a vegan diet? check the 21 day vegan mealplan – http://www.21daykickstart.org/index_menu_interim.cfm
wow, that' actually a good article.... i love you for that :) i might have seemed too blunt and too rigid, but actually I just wanted to say as much as possible cause it was a perfect article for it and lots of people read cnn. Hopefully someone will pick up some ideas and research further and maybe some children won't have to suffer from diabetes and other meat-related diseases as a result
Diabetes is an insulin disorder, not a "meat disease". Are you even trying to see a viewpoint other than your own? Are you capable?
July 4, 2012 at 11:16 pm |
PETP_Founder
As the PETP Founder I consider what you are all doing disgusting.
Doing you know how hard it is for a plant to get water and nutrients from the soil and the sun.
To grow when a big fat tree is blocking your light?
And then just as your big and strong to have some stupid animal to come along and rip you out of the ground, just because they can, and eat you!
You should all learn how to live without killing anything. Does a plant not bleed its fluids when you cut it, just like an animal? Just because a plant's fluids are a different color doesn't mean you ANIMALS have not hurt it!
Such unfeeling, disgusting creators animals are.
People for the Ethical Treatment of Plants (Join me my sane animals, quickly!, we won't be around for much longer)
it is fluid, not blood. You are far from being sensitive enough to feel the pain of the plants and recognize their fluid as blood... at least recognize the pain you are causing to your kin, the animals. Humans are animals-mamals and not plants.
Oink Thunter, you are not uneducated, my friend. You are undereducated. You have just enough education to sound almost smart–but not quite. Go back to school and finish the Third Grade. It will do wonders for you.
July 4, 2012 at 4:39 pm |
ONTHunter
This coming from the guy who makes sure to put an inappropriate, misspelled name in front of everyone who opposes his view?? F**k the third grade, you need to go back to kindergarten and learn some social skills.
July 4, 2012 at 5:55 pm |
David1958
Plants don't feel pain. They lack the nervous system and brain necessary for this to happen. A plant can respond to stimuli, for example by turning towards the light or closing over a fly, but that is not the same thing.
Have you considered becoming a vegetarian? Vegetarian or not, you may want to consider this Buddhist prayer:
This food is the gift of the whole universe,
Each morsel is a sacrifice of life,
May I be worthy to receive it.
May the energy in this food,
Give me the strength,
To transform my unwholesome qualities
into wholesome ones.
I am grateful for this food,
May I realize the Path of Awakening,
For the sake of all beings.
In response to the author saying "birdwatchers and hikers haven't paid near that much" (the $80 paid for hunting tags etc), those of us who do like to hike and horseback ride in Oregon's and Washington's national forest and wilderness areas do have to pay for a day-use or annual Trail Park Pass. Last time I purchased one was a few years ago, I believe the day-use fee was $5 and the annual pass was $40, and well worth it for the well-maintained trails and trailheads in central Oregon.
Hunters have fed the tribe since we climbed out of the trees. If you don't hunt, you are a scavenger, plain and simple. I choose to live my life the way I do ... you may do the same.
Hunters are killers. I didn't meet a hunter who doesn't like the sight of an innocent pray fall on the ground and who does not enjoy the feeling of triumph… I wonder if there is a hunter in the world who decided to hunt for environmental reasons. Humans had enough vegetation to survive, but meat tasted better and was easier to get. Maybe because humans had to move up north to find more animals and fish, they forgot that there is plenty of food where they came from and their lives became harder. Only 100 year ago people would barely eat meat because it is not sustainable; people couldn't afford to raise their animals. They were able to grow just enough vegetables, grains and fruits for themselves. Most of the people in Europe ate plant-based foods. Even now in poor countries people can not afford to raise animals and can not afford to hunt either, they have to protect the animals that are left in the wild.
"Humans had enough vegetation to survive" no, they didn't, which is why meat was needed to supplement their diet. Plant foods are lacking in much needed fats, which was needed to support our expanded brain. The only reason we can live without meat now is due to international trade providing us with higher fat plant foods that we couldn't get otherwise. Also, due to the shortening of our digestive tract, we can no longer extract as much nutrients from plant foods as our frugivore and herbivore cousins, increasing our reliance on meat sources. Australopithecus might have been the last human ancestor that actually didn't need to scavenge meat to live (though it is likely that they still did), after that, though, we needed at least some meat in our diet to survive. "Meat tasted better and was easier to get" Meat was not easier to get. In a transitional zone, there are literally thousands of plant-foods available. While hunting represented a large calorie investment, it had a very large pay off and they needed the fats and salts that meat provided to survive. "Their lives became harder" Their lives did not become "harder". The average hunter/gatherer group only has to scavenge for 4 hours a day, and hunt maybe once a week in order to get their food needs. This didn't change until the implementation of agriculture (which jumped that to 12+ hrs a day). Meat is sustainable if we eat it in the small amounts that it was meant to be ingested at. Unfortunately, our bodies are genetically tuned to go after high-fat, high-sugar foods as a survival mechanism. We ( Americans) ingest waaaaay more meat than our bodies actually need to sustain ourselves, and because of this companies like Tyson and others farm their cattle and chickens in horrible conditions to meet the demand.
July 4, 2012 at 3:44 pm |
Johny Law
'Hunters are killers'. Correction, GOOD hunters, or lucky hunters, are killers. Visit any states Fish and Wildlife sites and check out success rate percentages. Typically 30% or lower. Most hunters I know consider themselves successful if they harvest a big game animal every 3-5 years. All do it for the love of the outdoors and the chance to put some "free" meat on the table.
July 4, 2012 at 7:07 pm |
Peteyroo
Scupper, you choose to be a murderer. It's your choice. You do so of free will and unsound mind. I challenge you and the other hunters to hunt each other; at least it's a fair fight. It's one you will not choose because you are a coward. You will only hunt/fight when the odds are overwhelmingly in your favor. For once try a fair fight with another armed hunter!
so you were a vegetarian who ate only tomatoes? no wonder you couldn't last long.... 'Vegetarians build their diets around a wide variety of plant foods, including grains (such as rice, barley, and oats), grain-based foods (such as bread, pasta, and cereals), legumes, vegetables, fruits, nuts and seeds.'
http://www.truestarhealth.com/Notes/1301007.html
It's a joke. You just wasted your time replying to this. ARA's don't care if you shoot your own food. They want you off of meat and animal products completely.
Only in a society where people have plenty to eat is this a moral issue. Be very glad, vegans, you have any choice whatsoever in even choosing your food source. As for your moral qualms with omnivores, stuff it. You have it good, your belly is full of carrots, so let's leave it at that. The omnivores are taking advantage of the fact we have plenty to eat, as well. That's not the case for much of the world. Wanna trade with them? Bet you'd eat anything, anything at all that you could get your grubby mitts on. And as for eating meat, be glad your distant relatives were omnivores, or you'd still be scurrying around in the trees with a much lower cognitive ability and brain case.
Try what? Not eating meat in prehistoric times? Well, I'd say that the archeologists already answered your question when they correlated increased brain size and cognitive ability, i.e. tool-making and civilization-building skills, with an omnivorous diet. Don't take my word for it, though. Just go with your own beliefs and instincts and ignore the science behind it. And if you mean we should try starving to death to see what we'd be compelled to eat or not eat and trade places with those miserable wretches, knock yourself out and tell me how that works out for ya.
let's not forget that there is room for using more brain.... maybe if we didn't eat dead/denatured protein from animals, we would use more of our brain... first of all because our blood would have been able to bring more oxygen to our brain cells. samp applies to the rest.
One simple thing that apparently all Vegan and Vegetarians do not wish to recognize or are just too ignorant to be aware.....for every bushel of grain or basket of veggies, insects, animals and birds are killed in the process. During planting, cultivation and harvesting mice, snakes, rabbits, tortises are crushed; birds who nest on the ground like pheasant and quail have their eggs or babies killed. Being raised on a farm, I saw skunks, rabbits, even the occasional fawn accidentally get killed in these processes. So for those of you that act as though your way of life has no negative impact on the environment, think again because it simply isn't true.
SO TRUE, edumacated! My favorite treatise about that is at http://www.plamondon.com, search his blog for "Why I'm Not a Vegetarian." A quote from it: "Ethically, of course, it doesn't matter whether you kill an animal outright and eat it yourself, or whether it dies because you displaced it so you could grow soybeans. You killed it for your own purposes either way."
I proudly raise (and butcher) my own chickens, turkeys, ducks and pigs.
July 4, 2012 at 2:26 pm |
sam stone
i don't think any vegan or vegetarian would deny that some harm can come to the environment because of our food choices
July 4, 2012 at 2:51 pm |
V_1
Karen
my standing ovation to your post.
July 4, 2012 at 2:52 pm |
lena
“Livestock actually detract more from total food supply than they provide. Livestock now consume more human edible protein than they produce.… As the livestock sector moves away from using feed … that has no alternative value towards using crops and other high value inputs, it enters into competition with food … it raises overall demand and prices for crops and agricultural inputs.” – United Nations Report "Livestock's Long Shadow"
Modern humans are STILL omnivores. We can and do eat virtually anything considered edible; meat, fish, seafood, veggies, grains, fruit, eggs, you name, we eat it.
I distinguish between 'professional environmentalists' and 'environmentalists by ignorance'. Latter are not completely lost for society, former are just dumb and/or dishonest bunch beyond salvation who sees no difference between digestive systems of cows and humans.
I consider myself a 'practical environmentalist': for instance I don't buy into greenwash crap like hybrids, electro cars, etc as I do know where the electricity coming from and so far noone ever calculated their real impact on environment during production and lifecycle – how much air/water/soil becomes contaminated to produce/service/recycle/dispose their components especially motors and batteries? Show me number compared to conventional car and we'll see. Greenhouse gases increase albedo of the planet and cut off Sun's radiation. Gases also dissolved in COLD water and return into atmosphere when water gets WARM, hence their increase in atmosphere could be caused by warming not other way around. I think we wast terrible amount of resources on single use things like packaging, even recyclable ones. I know that people will not overpopulate planet because number of children per fertile female is dropping in all countries including India, countries of S.America and Middle East. Population will stabilize around 10B.
Unlike People of The Cult I did not sleep through my science and math lessons. I also hunt because we are part of ecosystems and ungulates population in North America is in better shape that they were at time of arrival of first Europeans but predators are not. Those who suggesting cannibalism and hunting are the same should see their doctor ASAP.
PS For the Author I think moving out of NY was the key point. I would sentence people to live there. ;)
what do you think about raising 60 billion animals for food each year? Does they have any negative impact on the environment? How much electicity/land/water it takes to raise them? How much methane comes from the cows in adition to other green house gas from transporting, feeding, refrigerating, slaughtering? how many wild animals will we need to satisfy human's requirements for meat? Being vegan is actually a very good alternative.
Regarding number of wild animals needed... Three words: Habitat, habitat, habitat. Fewer golf courses will do to begin with. ;)
And I don't suggest YOU to start hunting. I'm totally OK with you being herbivore. This is MY choice and I don't care about yours and perceived 'alternatives'.
i bet golf courses would solve most of the problem.... maybe if we use our backyards too, the problem would be solved.... 'Cattle expansion in the Amazon in the last twelve years has been phenomenal. During this period, the number of cattle more than doubled, from 26 million in 1990 to 57 million in 2002. The growth in Brazilian livestock production – 80% of which was in the Amazon – was largely export driven.' – http://www.cifor.org/publications/pdf_files/media/Amazon.pdf
July 4, 2012 at 12:12 pm |
V_1
It appeas I cannot respond to lena on her rattle on cattle expansion so I post it here:
lena you're barking at wrong tree. Cattle expansion is driven purely by so called western diet and modern logistics of big stores which forces to overproduce and funnel food right into waste bin. 'Western diet' by amount of meats consumed is definition of insanity by itself. Being a hunter and processing my own meats and poultry I waste no edible parts and ... consume way less meat than an average 'store-fed' Canadian or American.
July 4, 2012 at 12:32 pm |
sam stone
V_1: Well put
July 4, 2012 at 2:04 pm |
David1958
Being a Vegan is fine in parts of the world were theres a large variety of affordable vegetables and fruits that provide the protein and fats humans need for healthy nutrition. Unfortunately, many in the world do not have access to that variety. But, they do have access to animal flesh, and, a limited variety of edible vegetation. It would be great if this was a perfect world, and everyone had access to enough vegetables and fruits to satisfy our nutritional needs, but its not.
Here is an article about a teacher who brought eighteen grade 5 students to a slaughterhouse. The children reportedly were horrified to see how cows were processed into beef. Some of the students vomited, and most cried. If killing is normal, how come the children (the purest of us) have such a reaction? Would their teacher face disciplinary action if he brought them to see a garden? Killing is never right and deep inside we all know it. Many children become vegans when they find out what is behind their food. these are very intelligent, talented children and they thrive on a vegan diet.
I'm not impressed by your argument. Plants are living things. Do they miraculously stay alive when you eat them? Survival required killing. In the time you have taken to read this comment your body has killed thousands of bacteria (microscopic animals). Veganism is a valid choice, and on that makes sense for many people, but it does not eliminate the need to kill other organisms in order to survive.
do plants resemble humans as much as the animals? Do they have the same refined nervous system.... what is the difference between a human and a plant then? Should we harm people because we already harm plants?
July 4, 2012 at 12:01 pm |
Henry
While the plants we eat are certainly being killed, most of us believe, with good reason, that plants are not sentient. Chickens, pigs and cows are very likely sentient. That doesn't mean they can do algebra, but it does mean that they experience feelings, including fear and panic, especially when they are about to be slaughtered. We need to be mindful about that when we harvest animals for food. If we choose to kill animals for food, we have a moral obligation to be as kind as we can.
July 4, 2012 at 2:56 pm |
Guest
Lena-So your entire position is based on some arbitrary standard of sameness between a human being and whatever that human wants to eat? Are you able to read what you type or do you just black out and type nonsense?
July 5, 2012 at 1:03 am |
Wendy
Lena is the reason I am always a bit embarrassed to admit I am a long time vegetarian who is raising her kids as veggies. The author is not talking about slaughterhouses, nor are most of the responders.
I am an ethical vegetarian who eats eggs when I get them from my neighbor's happy chickens. I refuse to buy any animal product that isn't ethically farmed and that doesn't exist so I don't eat most animal products.
I personally could not kill an animal for meat. However, I sure as hell respect a good hunter who kills their own meal, than the people who put no thought into their meals, grab their plastic wrapped chicken from a supermarket, their commercially produced eggs, and their factory farmed milk.
My husband is a fisherman and as much as I don't want my boys to fish, they will have the option of doing it as they get older. They will know where their foods sources come from and I hope that if they choose to fish for meals, they will do it consciously and be grateful for the meal they are about to eat.
Honestly, if most vegans weren't on their soap box all of the time, they would realize that they have more in common with educated hunters and could focus on the policies of our food industry for change!
Wendy, eggs are not vegetables. But i have to say, this is a great article when it comes to brining awareness to others about the environmental issues caused by the Livestock Industry.
July 4, 2012 at 12:48 pm |
David1958
'than the people who put no thought into their meals, grab their plastic wrapped chicken from a supermarket, their commercially produced eggs, and their factory farmed milk.'
Wow, what an ignorant comment. Good for you, that you have access to these eggs from 'happy chickens'. Most people don't. We buy what we can find at our local super market.
July 4, 2012 at 7:16 pm |
Wendy
Hey David, I never judged people who buy at supermarkets, only those who put no thought into their food purchases. Even Farmer's Markets take food stamps now.I refer mostly to people like my mother who disdains hunting, but happily eats her chicken from a supermarket. We, as a society, don't want to admit where our food comes from, we just shovel it in our mouths.
Lena, I didn't say I was a vegan, I am a vegetarian, some of us eat eggs.
July 4, 2012 at 9:47 pm |
Dave
Lena,
Lots of kids raise their own livestock at home or as part of programs like 4H and FFA and are not traumatized.
This article is an excellent example of why the disparate groups in this country should listen to each other, instead of shout. Texas hunters have been saying these things for years (check out Texas Parks and Wildlife) but the word never seems to get out to the eco-foodie types. Great job of doing just that!
Please read The Five Biggest Myths We Learned from Bambi. We've raised two generations now who honestly think owls and rabbits are friends, that deer retire to Florida when they're older and that humans aren't part of the ecosystem. http://outdoorsdownsouth.com/the-five-biggest-myths-we-learned-from-bambi/
animals have mothers who are very attached to their babies, they love each other, they run for their lives, they enjoy life, they have pain, they cry, they communicate with each other.... have you ever wonder what feelings a bird might have to mate for life? Did you observe how one of them reacts when a partner is dead.... there is evil and good in this world; it is no wonder in what category hunters and butchers fall under.... we humans are here to grow our compassion and love, to be closer to goodness. If i didn't die so far on a vegan diet, you won't either and no one would. I am healthier, have more energy, a better immune system, look younger than my meat-eater peers (not to brag but to let you know about the benefits of being vegan)
I never bought into the lie that hunters love nature. The truth is they love KILLING NATURE. Hunters, the ones who hunt deer and elk to feed themselves, I don't see any problem with them, but the trophy hunters or sport hunters or whatever you want to kill these gutless and spineless cowards are subhuman trash.
Hunters do more to support wildlife conservation than any other group. They also understand better than anybody what it means to actually participate in the ecosystem in a very direct way. We have been hunters for longer than we have been modern humans. The bulk of the anti-hunting, anti-meat attitude is a result of the detachment from nature and food production combined with popular anthropomorphic depictions of non-human animals. I live in the city and no longer hunt, and frankly I find it boring. I do have friends and family who are avid hunters, and always appreciate the venison they generously give to me.
July 4, 2012 at 12:46 pm |
hunters are anti-wildlife terrorists
Hunters kill more wildlife than any other group. Saying hunters care about nature is like saying rapists care about women. Hunters are destroyers of wildlife and they are subhuman.
July 4, 2012 at 6:55 pm |
Peteyroo
Outhouse in the South, wrong! I suppose you enjoy killing because it feels good to have the power of life and over defenseless animals. Find another hunter and the two of you go "mano a mano" in a fair fight.
I hunt because choose to participate in the food chain you pretend to have removed yourself from. The truth is, the only reason you're even able to write these words is because your ancestors killed enough lions, tigers, bears, snakes, alligators, crocodiles to make room for your existence. That you choose not to hunt is fine, but being a vegan is only possible for you because the people who preceded here were not. As someone else pointed out, every form of life on this planet displaces something else.
And yes, I enjoy every part of hunting and fishing including the time spent walking in the woods, watching and listening to the actual killing or catching to the processing and the eating. I can grow my food, gather it, hunt or fish for it and that makes me happy! My Creek Indian ancestors were doing the same thing for generations before I came along, and I hope my progeny is still doing so for generations to come.
BurnSaber, Mother Nature cursed you with with a low IQ and no imagination. It's not your fault. Mother Nature is a tough old hide and she obviously saw something bad in you and wanted you to suffer. She knew what a worthless person you'd turn out to be, so she didn't want to waste much effort on you. She stripped you of morality and civility. What else did she do to you, you poor soul?
July 4, 2012 at 11:31 am |
David
There is nothing unethical about hunting for your food.
No thats not all I can research....I found this awesome video of a guy who shot a doe, but couldn't find it for hours. His hippie girlfriend was with him chewing him out the whole time about how he's a douche for killing bambi or some nonsense. Well, when they finally find the doe, he pulls out his knife and begins gutting the deer. Unfortunately, when you gut a deer that has sat for a few hours, theres gasses that build up in the stomach and digestive system. Well his knife accidentally pierced the stomach, and KABOOOM!! The whole stomach contents explode out and end up all over his GF. Well the cocky little bastard pipes right up and says "Hey you guys had the same lunch!". Priceless.
i bet it is someone with Hunter in their name who came up with the photos and spiced it up with a bit of a lie. and you are so attracted to each other, all you see and admire is the result of your ego. wake up dear, be wise not foxy. Don't be among the arrogant and deceiving
1) You're kidding yourself. 2) Encouraging people to hunt for their meals is retarded these days, is irresponsible, and cruel, and 3) "hunted" meat is no better for your health than the crap you get at the grocery store. I see you around my neighborhood, I may take up hunting myself.
Hunted meat is 100% organic, unlike the meat from the store that is hormone fed to maximize the meat per animal. Hunted meat is not caged for its entire life. It is a wild and free animal. It is a much healthier choice than eating store bought meat. Whether you feel it is necessary or not is irrelevant. Killing animals is nature at work. To threaten harm on someone because they hunt is 1) retarded, and 2) probably not the safest for your health.
ONT Punter, I see you're up to your old tricks again. Animals are not wild and free if you're out there killing them. Leave them alone and I'll agree with you. Just this once though. Usually you're full of crap.
They are wild and free. They are free to walk wherever they please, eat when they want...there is no fence surrounding them. As a hunter, I have to use my skills to locate, track, pattern, and ethically harvest the animal. Its not like I just take a couple steps into the woods and theres 30 deer there to shoot. It takes weeks of planning and preparation.
Instead of just saying "no you are wrong, I am right" why don't you actually provide some factual evidence for your beliefs. Until then, all you are doing is spouting some first grader nonsense of "i know you are but what am I'.
July 4, 2012 at 9:22 am |
Kieran
Silly hippie. See above picture.....
July 4, 2012 at 10:09 am |
Kieran
The fact you call yourself "Peteyroo" is also nauseating......
July 4, 2012 at 10:11 am |
Peteyroo
Keebler-Anne, I see you're out of jail already. You didn't know she was only 12 years old. It was an easy mistake. Anyway, you're back on the street ready to shove old ladies in front of buses and prepared to burn down orphanages.
July 4, 2012 at 11:35 am |
Chris (The other Chris)
Wild game isn't always 100% organic; I've seen deer happily chowing down on apples and pears in the orchards near my house, places that apply herbicides, insecticides and non-organic fertilizers on a regular basis. Deer munching wheat and corn, also heavily sprayed with various chemicals; pheasants and quail helping themselves to those same wheat and corn fields and orchards. Or how about the elk that come to feeding stations in the winter and eat non-organic grain and hay? Unless you hunt waaaay out in the boonies, most wild game anywhere near human farms has probably eaten non-organic food somewhere along the line.
Hunted meat is healthier. Not only is it organic, but it's leaner and higher in Omega-3s.
Hunting is not cruel, it's the most humane way to get meat on your plate. The animal has lived a free natural life until being killed for food, it hasn't been in a cage or penned up.
Also, in many areas there are no natural predators (people living in suburbia tend to not want mountain lions walking through their backyards); either the prey-animals such as deer are hunted (and the vast majority of hunters eat what they kill); or they die of starvation and disease from being over-populated.
Hunting is also necessary for crop production. Deer do more than $100 million worth of damage to crops each year, without hunting that number would be significantly higher.
Went hunting once, then could not eat the meat. The connection with food and a life was too clear. A prime rib for dinner from an animal I never saw is easier to handle. The animal it was taken from would never have one day of life if no one ate
their meat. There is always a way to do it better if we would only try.
I'm sure little – maybe even none – of the animal's meat is wasted by hunters. But if you want to talk about making full use of the animal, nothing even comes close to today's factory farms, where every tiny scrap of the animal is converted into either food or some usable material. Everything – fur, bones, hooves, teeth – is processed until every useful scrap is recovered. If thoroughness of use is your metric, you simply can't beat highly industrialized farming.
Lena, you are confused. ALL life is killing, even if it is just seeds. The energy stored in ALL forms of food is life. You can not exist without the killing of life. We are omnivores, we eat everything, and we have the teeth and digestion to prove it. You may not like the idea of killing, and I understand that. My own sister went vegan for several years, until health issues forced her back onto animal proteins. I understand your point of view, it is just wrong.
Nature is never "Fair". In nature the strong always eats the weak, and usually while it is still alive. The rules for eating in the wild are the same as the rules in a gun fight. "If you are in a fair fight, your tactics suck!" Stealth, speed, and overwhelming force are the rule, not the exception, and hunters kill with the most compassion, and the cleanest/ quickest skill of all predators.
And true hunters make more use of their kills than predators in the wild who will eat until full and leave the rest. We waste nothing of the meat, and might even mount the head if it is an impressive animal. Not to gloat, but more like a post card found along the journey. It is a tribute to the animal and a reminder of the hunt.
I carry a trash bag with me when I hunt as well. I clean up the trash left behind by the hikers, bird watchers, and PETA people who share the wild with me. And while hunting/ conservation groups buy thousands of acres of land for continuing conservation efforts, for the betterment of wildlife, PETA type groups protest, but buy no lands, raise and release no game animals (rabbits, pheasants, ect.) only predators such as the wolf program in Yellowstone. Which , by the way, is decimating the deer population in that area.
You are entitled to your opinion, and your lifestyle, as am I. But your reasoning is deeply flawed.
dear Kellory, you are confused... i sugest to reflect upon your life and the life of others instead of shooting. Just take a bowl of beans, a vegan humburger with quinoa on the side, a salad and for one day, go into the wilderness and try to see if you can observe nature in full. i guarantee you it's much better than looking for someone to kill and having blood drip throuhg your fingers.
July 4, 2012 at 12:30 pm |
kellory
Lena, I eat quite a lot of salads, and steamed or raw veggies, and I'm sure I am in better health than you. Being in the wild as much as I am, keeps me fit and strong. I am almost never sick.
I don't need to go out and contemplate life and death, I am already pretty good at both. (grins)
As for "blood dripping through my fingers" well, that is a fact of life during the butchering process, and I am an adult, I can handle it.
Fact of life is you would starve to death before a new crop could come up, unless you had a store house to hold product from past harvests. You can only go a couple of weeks without food. As a meat eater, I could hunt it, grill it, and eat it within a couple of hours. Your version is not sustainable without a sizable investment in land, buildings, and time. It requires a long term investment to be feasible.
July 4, 2012 at 3:36 pm |
Karen
"Torturing is not accepted in the 21st century"... what lala land are you living in? It may not be "accepted" to good people, but it goes on just the same. It seems to me to be quite accepted in the Middle Eastern and Asian countries, and it goes on in your town, too. In my own smallish town not too many years back, an evil man broke into a family's house less than 1/2 mile from a freeway, bludgeoned the parents to death in front of the children, kidnapped the boy and girl, took them out in the forest and raped and tortured them for a couple of weeks, eventually killing the boy. The only reason he was caught is that for some unknown reason he came into a town with the girl and someone recognized her and called the police. You can still see a lot of "KILL DUNCAN" bumper stickers around here.
The animals I raise and butcher for my table are not tortured, they are killed far more quickly and humanely than if a coyote got hold of them.
Actually, in most cases, it would not be healthier for the animal. Most wild animals die before maturity from natural predation, disease, starvation, exhaustion, or road kill. Dying via a hunter is probably the best way for that animal to go, minimal pain, minimal suffering.
If most people had to kill their own game, skin their own game, butcher the carcass, etc, I bet you would probably see significantly less people chowing down on cheeseburgers. There's a lot of people who would simply be too squeemish to handle it. So i have NO problem with hunters who will in fact do all of that.
You would be correct. I grew up hunting, (I'm female, BTW), did much of the butchering, and after I went out on my own, raised food animals. If you can't do it, no shame in not eating meat. More for the rest of us.
i'm a female too and I was never able to understand how humans kill animals or humans. I wonder what kind of a mother or wife you are. it's kind of interesting, i don't know many females who hunt. to me it seems that something is missing there. Did you check your cholesterol level before being so proud of eating so much meat?
My cholesterol numbers have gotten better since adapting a primal-style diet (basically paleo + dairy). I eat more meat now, and very little grain. My numbers were never "bad", but they have moved more solidly into the "good" category. My good cholesterol HDL, which has nearly double in the last couple years, from barely over 40 to in the high 70s!
It's actually sugar and grains that inflame your arteries. Saturated fats from foods like coconut oil and grass-fed beef actually reduce inflammation.
Try reading "Good Calories Bad Calories" by Gary Taubes.
July 4, 2012 at 9:21 am |
ONTHunter
WOOOOOOOOOOOW....are you freaking serious?? You go on and on about evolution, and how women have rights now....and then you go on to say that you don't understand why a woman would hunt?? BECAUSE SHE WANTS TO!!!
And to question someone's mothering abilities based on meat in their diet is retarded....If you want to strip peoples parental rights, go after that couple that fed their baby nothing but soy milk because they were vegans. The baby died at 4 weeks of age due to malnutrition. Who's the crazy group again??
July 4, 2012 at 6:21 pm |
Peteyroo
Sump, killing is wrong except in self-defense. Were these animals in your house attacking you? Or were you in their homes attacking them?
What is wrong with you? You spout this absolute nonsense that even your fellow vegans don't understand you. Humans are humans, animals are animals. Humans kill animals then eat them. If you choose not to partake in the partay, then suit yourself. I, for one, am going to go enjoy my deer steak, with wild mushrooms, wild green onions, and a bbq'd potato. Cheers!!
July 4, 2012 at 6:24 pm |
sam stone
I am a long term vegetarian (30+ years), and I don't care what others eat. To me, this is not an ethical issue, it is a dietary one.
some are vegans for health reasons, some for compassionate reasons. I would say that being vegan only for health reasons is a bit egoistic (all about me, me, me.... better than eating the flesh of another being of course) That's why i disagree that hunting is not an ethical issue.
July 4, 2012 at 1:32 pm |
sam stone
my health is a function of my diet. if you consider that egotistical, then fair enough.
July 4, 2012 at 2:08 pm |
sam stone
lena: is hunting a greater moral issue than meat eating in general?
July 4, 2012 at 2:14 pm |
VaHeel
In my part of Virginia the deer population has exploded. It is not unusual for us to see 10-20 deer in our front yard. They are no longer afraid of humans and not the least bit "skittish". In the woods surrounding our property there is no green vegetation from 0 to 7 feet from the ground. The deer have eaten it all away. When we first moved here 23 years ago I was enamored of the Bambis but now I just view them as pests. That is why I decided to buy a crossbow and become skilled with it. I don't have to put on camo or get in a tree stand or cover myself in buck urine to get a deer. I just have to go out to my driveway and wait. In regular clothes.
My point is that the eco system has gotten dangerously out of balance when it comes to deer populations. The only natural enemy they have in this area is a Chevy. Hunting is the only practical and humane way to control the population. Otherwise hundreds of thousands of them will starve, succumb to disease or get hit by a vehicle (of those that do the lucky ones die immediately). You may consider hunting to be repulsive but in this day and time it is a necessary form of management. And if you eat meat it is a responsible way to acquire it.
Deer hunting was enjoyable when I was a kid. We ate what we killed. The eco-nuts should buy into this ancient custom for a couple reasons; 1) hunters, like fishermen, are not always successful (tv shows make it look as if they are and slaughterhouses are 100% successful), 2) hunters usually clean up after themselves because most truly enjoy the vista view of pristine wooded areas, 3) as you mentioned, hunters contribute millions to wildlife conservation endeavors in the several states (though most ends up in a general fund which is spent on domestic social programs) and finally, 4) hunters are generally salt of the earth folks who you can have a conversation with without mentioning religion or politics.
You know I find it interesting that some people think it is evolving to turn into a vegan.
It think they should really consider what that means. Look to the animals that you are supposedly trying to save.
Is your goal to be a happy simpleton? For instance like a dear? Their life is, eat, birth and stay out of jaws of a predictor.
When I look for the most intelligent animals on the planet almost everyone of them eats meat.
Now there is the elephant, very intelligent, and doesn't eat meat. And spends pretty much every waking hour eating.
Hmm have you noticed that about animals that eat only plants? They spend as much time as possible doing it.
So it seems to me that if your goal not to eat meat, must also be to spend all your time sitting around eating.
Wait that's right that is what most people are doing in the US, that is one reason they are so fat! (and stupid)
You're so, so close and bring up interesting points except the douchebaggery at the end was wholly unnecessary.
Let me just point out that everyone hunting their own food is unrealistic, unsustainable and downright dangerous. There are simply too many people on Earth to have HALF of the population hunting in this manner for sustenance, let alone a "way forward".
Anyhow, grasses and plants have such low nutritional value that you must eat a lot of it to reap the benefits of its digestion. And speaking of digestion, it's a difficult process and requires almost as much calories to process the material as it's benefit. Larger brains need protein. You need massive amounts of protein to sustain the human brain. Like it or not, we're meat eaters. We came out of those trees because we ate meat.
MoonWitch, there are a great number of healthy, intelligent vegetarians. Entire societies, in fact. Gandhi is one example. His brain seemed to function very well without ever taking in meat. I'm not a vegetarian, but I am intelligent enough to put two and two together.
that is an old believe. Most of these conclusions were made by studding only people who eat meat. Now, other information is revealed such as that we eat too much protein and it actually very bad for us; the animal protein is hard to digest and comes with cholesterol and other bad to health elements; we don't need to use so much energy for digesting the food if we eat the right food; we should use protein that does not require too much work from our digestive system and wears out our organs; our protein should have enzymes and not deprive the body of the enzymes; the food should make our body alkaline – a vegan diet is the perfect diet. In addition, a vegan diet has all the nutrients unless you eat only peanuts all the time. When you eat a variety of plant-based foods, you get all the nutrients you need and you do not feel sluggish after eating. I wonder, how come so many people do not do a simple research on who vegans are, how they feel, what they eat and how their life changed.....
"There is not a single argument nor a single fact that can be offered in favor of flesh eating that cannot be offered, with equal strength, in favor of cannibalism." – Herbert M. Shelton in Superior Nutrition
What people eat comes down to individual choices, beliefs and one’s own traditions; PETA people accusing meat eaters and meat eaters abusing PETA activists are just arguments devoid of any logic!
PS: Hunting animals is slightly ethically better (for meat eaters, of course) way of getting one's meat for food, than purchasing meat from a grocery store.
I have been a vegan for 5 years and a vegetarian for over 20 years. However, I do not have a problem with hunters...at least not the ones that hunt to feed themselves and their families. I do not agree with those that hunt for sport; that seems unethical to me. I definitely prefer hunting over factory farming and agree with a lot of the comments regarding the quality/purity of the food in comparison to the meat of antibiotic-fed animals available at the supermarket. I would not and could not hunt an animal being who I am at this moment but if I was starving, would that position change in order to survive? Most likely, depending on the environment and the circumstances.
In terms of the 'evolution' argument, I think it is a matter of respecting what you are given and what you take. If you hunt, respect the animal that is feeding you.
I'm convinced that Chris is not a hunter and unclear on the concept. As well as being someone who needs something to do besides the internet.
I hunt. I hunt for many reasons. It brings me close to nature. It expands my senses. It makes me feel more alive. It provides sustenance for my family that is nurishing and free of the chemicals used in modern agricultural production. It connects me to the circle of life that my ancestors participated in.
I like venison. I just finished some delicious BBQ squirrel. I contribute more over the course of a yr in Pittman-Robertson funds than Chris will in his lifetime to the cause of conservation. As well as providing habitat and food plots for wildlife on my own land.
Humans are designed to eat meat and as evidenced by the eyes in the front of our heads, are predators. To deny it is to deny your ancestral history..
As for the argument that hunting won't feed the world, you're right. A plague that killed about 1/2 the humans on this orb would go a long way toward solving the hunger problems we have. Humans have no self control when it comes to reproduction. And no cohesive strategy as a species for survival.
Well, no. Humans are omnivores, and are extremely well adapted to that role. We basically suck as predators, until you let us make weapons – we're slow, don't have claws, and don't even have teeth that can properly catch and kill things. And we can happily eat and digest all manner of fruits, vegetables, nuts and other non-meaty items. Millions of years of evolution has made us extremely broad spectrum eaters.
This article is not about whether hunting is ethical or not. We know it's not, but that's beside the point. Recently, there was an article on whether eating meat and fish was ethical. This article was written as an after thought.
Many issues with factory farming and fisheries have been brought up–damage to the environment, cruelty to animals, and health problems.
What is happening is we're experiencing a mind shift where rights are now given to others that were never there before. Or at least it's being discussed. Marriage equality, rights of the 99%, women getting equal pay. Plus we have an African-American in the White House.
And now the Vegan lifestyle is becoming popular. People are actually talking about the welfare and rights of animals.
People these are wonderful things. It means we are evolving.
On the other side there are the traditionalists that don't want change, nor do they believe in evolution, which is sad. There is a push-back on the positive changes. Articles like this are written to encourage people to stay on track with tradition. They not only discredit those who are making the changes, but also making an attempt to put a positive spin on activities like, "it's okay, what you are doing is ethical, it's humane."
This article even attempts to add a 5th reason, when the 5th reason is really apart of the 4th reason. I guess desperate times come for desperate measures.
Change will happen no matter how much you try to stop it.
It's all I have to say on this topic. Now to open up the minds of racists;)
Just because the vegan diet is becoming popular, doesn't mean that everyone has to do it. THATS MY RIGHT!!
There is nothing wrong with change. I fight for human rights, I've been to Afghanistan. I've seen what people have to live with over there. I also believe in tradition and heritage. It is a concept that is lost in many of today's youth. North America has lost its culture. Two countries built under the Christian beliefs have all but abandoned them. I am sick and tired of having to mold my beliefs to fit what is now "socially acceptable". Same thing with hunting. I hunt because I enjoy it. My father hunted, so did my grandfather, and so on. Hunting is a family tradition that does YOU no harm, therefore, bugger off and let me live my life. I'm not asking you to like hunting, I really don't care if you do. But do not dare try to trample on my rights to somehow fit your social agenda. My activities do not affect your life, ergo, do not interfere with mine.
So since you have no logical grounds on which to attack his argument, you try to link it to something totally unrelated and attack that?
For all your posts indicating how much smarter you think you are than everyone you disagree with, you really are lousy at this.
July 4, 2012 at 4:19 am |
c smythe
survival of the fittest . . .
July 4, 2012 at 4:30 am |
ONTHunter
Those are HUMAN rights issues, which exploited PEOPLE. I do not exploit an animal when I hunt it. They are free range animals with much better sight, aural, and sense of smell. They have the advantage in the woods, its their turf.
I capitalized the main points for ease of understanding. If that doesn't work, I'll break out the crayons and draw you a picture.
July 4, 2012 at 7:06 am |
Desmond Hartin
Interesting that you have basically equated the hunting of animals to the torture and enslavement of millions kidnapped from Africa.....Or in your eyes are the experiences of animals and generations of my ancestors essentially the same?
July 4, 2012 at 11:21 am |
Peteyroo
Jest & ONT Punter, you kill because you enjoy killing and you love the power it gives you. I suggest you match up against each other or against other hunters. You'd have the thrill of the hunt and it would be a fair fight instead of the cowardly way you now conduct your murdering.
July 4, 2012 at 11:41 am |
lena
you don't want to do it but it is the wise thing to do
Its wise because you say it is?? Lets be realistic. The farming of meat is never going away. There is too much at stake with the economy to start eliminating entire markets. Like it or not, humans eat meat. They always have, and probably always will. Your individual opinion is not going to sway the minds of 7 billion people who's opinion differs from yours.
July 4, 2012 at 9:12 am |
Primal 4 Life
Wrong. Here is why, if hunting were unethical, it isn't, NONE OF US WOULD BE HERE!
There is no end goal of humanity. What you think humanity should become is just that, what YOU think it should become. Luckily, I live in a free country and when I deem you are full of it, and you are, then I get to not participate in your endeavors and you get to deal with the fact that you don't even have the majority on your side.
Do what you want, let others do what they want,and the world will be far better because of it.
Make me do what you want, and you will never live another day without looking over your shoulder.
"we know it's not".... Ha! You say hunting is not ethical like it's scientific fact.... well let's look at it this way. Food web, humans are omnivores, it's normal for animals to be killed for food, etc. Your post is written as though it's a bunch of common sense fact, when it's very obviously a bunch of liberal propaganda. Sorry, I don't buy it. Guess I'm not "evolving" like you. You are free to be a vegetarian but don't tell me it's unethical for me to kill and eat my own meat. Even vegetarians are responsible for slaughter of animals – think what every farmer must do to keep pest animals from eating his crops. Animals will be intentionally killed to put food in your mouth, no matter what your diet. And you are probably too much of a wimp to grow all of your own food and completely sustain yourself without relying on some industry.
Also, you think it's sad if someone doesn't believe in evolution. Well, it is no nearer being proven than intelligent design/creation. I believe there is very obvious design in all aspects of life, suggesting a designer. It's up to opinion and you can think it's sad if I don't believe in evolution if you want. Yes things can micro-evolve to adapt to environment but I don't see it possibly going any farther beyond that. My opinion.
Now go back to eating your rabbit food and tofu blocks. Won't bother me, long as you don't tell me or anyone else they shouldn't hunt their own food. I will keep living the way humans have for thousands of years, an omnivore, and will enjoy the fruits of my labor from hours spent in the woods outsmarting wild animals that are probably smarter than you.
You know that is a great point. Not one oft these self righteous dolts could harvest an animal if their life depended on it. I feel like that is a blessing.
Ratman925, where do I start? It's going to take a long time to straighen you out. My non-hunting friends and I can take turns with you. You'd make our job easier if you had finished Third Grade! Oh, well, we'll try. One of us will teach you how to tie your shoes then review the task every morning when you report for class. Yes, Crapman, you're going to school. Having such a low IQ doesn't help matters either. Wait out at the curb for the short, yellow bus tomorrow morning.
I'm sorry but just because you think those things are good means absolutely nothing. The hunter gather lifestyle is superior to anything different we have today. Change, simply for change, is stupid. Always has been, always will be. We were put on this earth with absolutely EVERYTHING we needed. All we have done is make thing worse, as fun and as cool as things are. There is some very cool stuff out there these days. Trust me, I like my house more than the cave I will use if I have to.
Mother Nature is more intelligent than all of humanity combined. If you can't accept that fact, then you have not evolved at all.
Pimped 4 Pleasure, I suppose you enjoy pushing old ladies in front of city buses, too. What do you do for fun when you aren't burning down orphanages, or scoring child pornography at the park?
Animals have no rights. We as humans and stewards of this world have resposibilities to manage them in a cogent manner.
MOST people don't have the opportunity to try hunting. That isn't a choice. That's an accident of birth.
Eater of LimpSomething, animals have no rights because murderers such as yourself deny those rights. In a better world animals would have rights and you'd be back in jail with all your friends.
ethical or not – Who are you to tell me what is ethical ? I think it would be ethical for you wingnuts to mind your own business. I eat meat and I don't much care how it is made as long as it is safe for my family. Just how safe is your american GM soy and corn? Are you wealthy enough to go organic only? I wish I had your money . . .
And who cares what's ethical anyway? Good and evil are just words. I've never hunted but it looks like a blast. Too bad there's no feral pigs around where I live, just boring, baconless deer. I bet blowing a deer's brains out would be just as thrilling as offing a pig, though.
Such a great discussion. The minds are really at work here. This is a christian country? Don't believe in evolution? The world is flat? (Oh, I was expecting to see that somewhere).
Believe what you will, but the one thing you all have to remember is there are no personal choices in this world. The fact is we are all connected. All life came from the same seed. First modern man came from Africa. Everything you do affects another. You can't escape that fact.
The continued existence of nature is important Without it we cease to exist. Without us, nature will grow and flourish. Better be compassionate and humane in a harmonious manner. The world will rid of us when it's had enough.
Vegetarians and Vegans are healthier, environmentally friendlier, and obviously kinder to animals. Vegetarians and Vegans have been around for a long time, longer than you are aware of. Many have lived happily on a plant-based. Killing any sentient being is unnecessary and unethical. Agree or don't agree, that's your choice.
And yes I'm a proud liberal tree-hugging, animal rights, human rights, environmental activist and democratic socialist. I embrace life and the equality of life.
If I've been rude or insulting I apologize, but I will always work for justice in any way possible.
You may have the last word. Too many things to do.
News Flash – You are not special, you are not better than anyone else, period. Your choices do not make you a superior being in any possible way. Nobody need ever worry about you and the way you think things should be.
used to be able to hunt, but now most land here leased out to doctors and lawyers, my guns are getting rusty, I have no permission to get in , cant affoard a lease. I'll buy the store crap
So apparently, according to vegans and vegetarians, mother nature made humans the only creature on the face of the earth that craves food that will kill them.
It is 100% obvious, to anyone with a functioning brain. that if we were meant to be vegetarian, we would be, without any argument.
too bad that there are many people like you who like meat too much to admit that there is something wrong about eating it. We are the only specie that can choose what to eat... and often time we choose what is not the best for us. Look at how many children are in hospitals with terminal illness, check how many more are now compared to 10 years ago, and check how the diet changed. I believe the animal products almost doubled in our diet. did you know, btw, that milk causes osteoporosis and is not a good source of calcium? The body requires more calcium to digest the milk then it gets from milk and it takes if from our bones..... Guess how many doctors know about it... I think Americans, who drink so much milk, shouldn't even know what osteoporosis is, instead, they suffer the most.
There is nothing wrong with eating animal products, period. If there was, the human race would be extinct.
You need to stop cherry picking your responses, In every single case where you have been proven wrong, you simply stop responding. That pretty much solidifies you are full of it.
No one cares that you are a vegan, and even less care that you want all of us to join you. Spend your time more wisely, you have so precious little of it.
and how would you know? do you worry that if you go vegan you will die? I actually wonder what is your interest to mislead so many people since yesterday morning. Do they pay you for that? I just hope you are not a cnn employee. That would be sad because people in the media should really be open minded and should know much more about a topic before commenting or making a conclusion. I mean you should learn more about veganism and not only find information that suits your ego and your believe and making conclusions according to your limited imagination. Your comments on veganism are so unintelligent.
July 4, 2012 at 8:02 am |
Peteyroo
Pimped 4 Life, we would not die out without meat. That is pure nonsense.
July 4, 2012 at 11:58 am |
Primal 4 Life
Sorry lena it is you who is misguiding people not me. Everything I have said is 100% correct, backed by science, and easily verifiable.
July 4, 2012 at 1:38 pm |
ONTHunter
There is zero scientific evidence to back up that THEORY. Thats all it is, a theory. There's also the theory that so many parents shelter their kids from bacteria that their bodies dont develop an immune system. Kids that practically take baths in hand sanitizer, and are forbidden from getting dirty.
Its funny that you mention milk though, as I do not consume milk other than on my cereal. Mammals do not need milk after infancy. Humans are the only species that continues to consume milk into adulthood. All the nutrients found in milk can be substituted with a balanced diet of meat, fruits and vegetables.
Ann Thunter, what do you have against milk? I suppose you don't eat eggs either? You are so confused. I do feel sorry for you. Your family must be so ashamed of you.
July 4, 2012 at 12:00 pm |
ONTHunter
I am not against milk, I just don't drink it.
July 5, 2012 at 12:12 pm |
Ed
lena is a nutcase. So you don't eat meat. Have you never had a leather product? Shoes? Purses? Is it OK for that cow to go without skin so you can have your things? You come in contact everyday with items made from animal products weather you eat them or not.
Since i became vegan I don't wear anything from animal products. There are so many things to wear and so many things to eat. Try to be vegan, learn what it is, research why people go vegan and maybe one day you will become enlightened on the subject. I was a meat eater and I am vegan now. I know both sides and when people think that they know everything I wonder how? Did you try to actually see how it is? It seems you don't even know that cotton is vegan and there are so many leather alternatives, there is absolutely no need to wear someone's skin.
July 4, 2012 at 7:54 am |
ONTHunter
@lena...so what exactly do you wear that does not exploit animals in any way? Every product we buy has an effect of animals, directly or indirectly. Polyester is petroleum based, do we really need to argue the effects of oil on the animal kingdom? How about cotton? How much forest has been torn down in order to grow something that offers no eatable value whatsoever. It doesn't matter if you don't wear leather, your clothing exploits animals just as much as the rest of us.
July 4, 2012 at 8:10 am |
lena
I agree that everything we use exploits that's why I choose to use things that are less exploitative and at least are not linked to murdering the animals (when a human being exercises their killing tendencies with no remorse). If you don't see a difference between being a vegan and a meat eater, I can't help. Killing animals is below human's dignity. It is not natural and it is cruel. It is another aspect of our arrogance and desire to dominate and cause pain to others. Every person should reflect upon this with an open mind. I noticed some people here don't even know that vegans eat a wider variety of foods than meat eaters..... and do not graze all day long, and many healed themselves from incurable deceases. Shame on those who know so little but like to stick to the past and their habits.
I grew up on a farm and we slaughtered our own chickens, cow, pigs and sheep. We also hunted deer, rabbits, and shot depredating pests that endangered live stock and crops. A farm boy or girl knows where meat comes from and knows an animal dies to provide meat. Our forefathers hunted to feed their families and the farmers raised live stock to fed the city people. The hunters provide the funding to support wildlife hapitat and conservation. Would the hikers and other non-hunting sportsman accept an 11 – 20% excise tax on all there gear, accessories and pay additional fees to supplant the funds hunters provide for wildlife and the economy.
if the government wouldn't pay millions of dollars in subsidies to the unsustainable livestock industry, there will be enough for the environmental protection. it is also mostly the livestock industry that ruins nature, including the natural habitat of our wild animals. Why would we need the little money from the hunters when the government can pay much more if they would know how to manage the tax money better? Even humans would be healthier and less money would be needed in this area.
You want a link, fine. Google Joel Salatin. See how he runs his farm. If at that point you still object. We have nothing more to say to each other. I will wish you well and move on.
He may well be the greatest modern American farmer there is.
You are either nieve or a simpleton. The cost for wildlife conservation in 50 states is on the order of billions and the hunters provide most of that through excise taxes and licence fees and the money spent in the economy in pursuit of their hobby, sport and putting food on the table. To replace this the general populace would have to see an increase in taxes. It appears that the radical vegan and those opposed to hunting are looking through rose colored glasses and are to rigid in their opinions to accept others pursuit of happiness as guarented in our countries founding documents.
First of all, you chowderhead, the government doesn't bear the responsibility to fix all that you THINK is wrong with the world. YOU do. And secondly their funds are limited and must be stewarded to benefit their biggest contributors. Not the whiny vegans who contribute nothing to their campaigns and less to conservation.
I have no problem allowing you to eat what you want. Why can you not allow me the same courtesy?
Thinking ahead to Lena's wold of the future.......where will we be keeping all of the livestock after everyone stops eating them? Cattle aren't native to North America, and don't survive for long without human stewardship.
ErrorPants 2, we could still take care of them until they finally die of old age. It's not that tough.
July 4, 2012 at 12:03 pm |
lena
we should make sure we don't artificially inseminate them as we are doing now... why multiply so many animals in so little time? maybe the livestock industry is dictating our food choice or what doctors have to prescripbe medications?
July 4, 2012 at 12:24 pm |
Primal 4 Life
It actually doesn't. Humans became smaller when we switched to agriculture. A grain based diet is as bad as it gets for humans.
My goodness Primal4Life... when did we became smaller and switched to grains as a human race? If we changed our diet, it was more towards a meat dense one. Why don't you research a bit and find out how many animals we eat now compared to even 20 year ago. And don't be so mad.... it's a free country, everyone can say whatever they want.... but not everyone should do whatever they want especially when it comes to killing others.
You don't get out much, do you? There is no such thing as "A Fair Fight" in nature. There is life and there is death in nature, and they are pretty much the same thing. Survival of the fittest is the law of nature. And if other people were not creating food for you to eat, oodoodanoo, you would be gone in a week.
Tums, did you build your own house, or did someone build it for you? Did you built your own automobile, or did someone make it for you? Lightbulbs? Shoes? Gasoline? How many items did you actually build for yourself?
Set out to see nature in action. Try to get hold of some video of a snake swallowing another animal alive. Watch snakes and other animals killing their prey slowly. Watch some video and slides on animals freezing to death. Toss a canary into the air in an area full of hawks and other predatory birds, and enjoy the action. See the real world as it is.
I have access to a full cad mill and lathe. I can make any weapon I choose. So if I make it myself it's suddenly OK right? That is exactly what you are saying.
I hunted once and it sucked. We had to track a wounded deer for miles before we found it dead. It was hours of waiting just to do this. I couldn't stomach the skinning either. Made sense in pioneer days but not anymore. Factory farming sucks too. I'm so on the verge of becoming a veg. I don't care what they say about hunters and conservation, blah, blah. A wild animal has it rough enough in all kind of weather and terrain, with insect pests and a need to find water and food and avoid predation. Then add in all the hunters wanting to get a hard on over a pair of antlers and hunting is just stupid.
Hunters are just another predator yet you talk as if there would be no predation if there were no hunters. Most other predators eat their prey alive, hunters are the most humane of predators. G o ahead be a vegetarian, but until you do, some else is doing what you don't have the guts to do yourself so you have no right to criticize those with enough character to do it themselves and not cop out.
I am organizing a "safari of sorts", where we will travel all over the world killing all the predators: snakes, lions, tigers, cheetahs, panthers, crocodiles, bears, falcons, and so on. Then all the prey can reproduce with no checks and will have it really nice. Hope to see you soon, joining up with us to improve the world.
I have hunted a few times, and it can be agonizingly boring, but I realize that deer who are are not killed by hunters are likely to die of starvation in the winter, disease, predation by non-human animals (mountain lions, wolves), and from being hit by cars. I do enjoy eating animals that were hunted by my friends and family members who are avid hunters.
I accidentally shot what I thought was a quail. It turned out it wasn't. I was really bummed, I don't like to kill things I won't consume.
It was a meadowlark, and I cleaned it, cooked it, and it was delicious.
That is my rule, if you kill it, you gotta eat it. I also do not hunt with people that do not use the entire animal. I may be on of the few people around that whole roasts doves, tiny as they are. It's worth the effort to me.
It is illegal to allow edible game meat to spoil. If a hunter does not want the meat, or does not want all of it, they can give it to someone or donate it to a soup kitchen. As long as the animal is being utilized, I really don't care why it was harvested.
I eat a plant-strong/vegan diet for health reasons, but am not opposed to people who want/choose to eat meat. I think hunting your meal is probably the most ecologically-friendly way to go about it instead of factory farming. It gives people a perspective on food that is lacking in this country. I grew up in Taiwan where we often serve fish, the entire fish, head and everything. This tends to freak out Americans who are use to seeing their food neatly packaged and saran wrapped. This article is a great reminder to people that the meat and dairy you consume come from other living things and that all life needs to be respected.
How fortunate we are that you've figured out the answer for us and have decended from your pedestal to share it.
Hunting for whatever animal-based protein they could get was what your ancestors did for thousands of years. If grocery stores disappeared tomorrow, you'd starve within two weeks, and I wouldn't have even consumed half of my last kill.
Absolute statements are often difficult to defend.
our shelves could be full of organic plant-based foods instead. A hamburger would cost around $30 if all the environmental damage in producing it would be counted. Our ancestors made a mistake, as they did with sacrificing, killing others, surpressing and dominating. Every time we had to erase one of these habits from human's behaviour, there were contradictions. I'm not on a pedestal, the ones who think that there is no room for new ideas, concepts and change are. All it takes is to say, what if it is time for humans to make a change. as a human race, we always had to do it. We should keep only what is beautiful from our ancestors. They also learned from their ancestors. It took one or a few humans to try the meat and start hunting that eventually was passed from generation to generation.
July 3, 2012 at 9:25 pm |
Primal 4 Life
Just ignore her, she is as dumb as a box of rocks. Just read all her posts, she proves it with absolute certainty. She is a terrible human being imo. I don't respect anyone that decides for others what is right. If I could, I'd have her deported. She is a disgrace to all Americans.
July 3, 2012 at 9:36 pm |
Guest
The cost of factory-farmed hamburger is 100% irrelevant to the topic discussed here which is one person going out and hunting one wild animal that has nowhere near the environmental impact of an equivalent amount of beef. You're no better than some other folks posting here. You can't attack the logic of my statement, so you try to connect it to something completely unrelated and easier to take a swing at and attack that instead.
Also we're all alive so I don't think our ancestors made a mistake. I'm pretty sure they did PRECISELY what nature designed them to do.
July 5, 2012 at 1:09 am |
Primal 4 Life
OMG shut your ignorant pie hole. You have no right whatsoever to foist your ridiculous notion of what is right and what is wrong on anyone else.
Be a vegan, and shut up about it. Some of us don't ever want to join your side and never will. I tolerate you right not to consume animal products. That means YOU HAVE NO CHOICE but to tolerate those of us who choose to do so. It's called freedom. Something you clearly have no notion of.
Lena, are you not killing the plants that you eat? They are living things also. If humans were meant to eat nothing but plant based materials, we wouldn't have canine teeth. We are designed as omnivores, with the capacity to eat almost anything. If our meat diet wouldn't have worked we would have developed the means to fully digest plant material, but it was not needed as meat is a very compact and effecient form of nutrition! Most of us humans choose to eat meat, and I choose to kill what meat I eat whenever possible, as it makes me appreciate what goes into the meal. I have no qualms with people who want to eat a plant based diet, but please leave me to eat whatever diet I choose.
So killing not right when natural predators do it then? So Nature is wrong for having predators then? You aren't thinking clearly. Predation is nature's way and hunters are predators.
so killing a monster like Hitler or Dahmer would have been wrong to save a bunch of humans? You've been brainwashed, dearie.
Animals kill to live. Whether it's some poor screaming plant eaten by an elephant or a screaming rabbit eaten alive by a coyote. We all kill to live. Accept it.
As a child I grew up around hunting and fishing. I wnet antelope hunting one time and got mine, i enjoyed the experience, but there is no way I could have eaten all the meat so I ended up hunting for people to take some of the meat. Way more effort than what it was worth. That and the fact I believe having guns around the house is dangerous I don't hunt anymore.
I still fish occasionally but I figure the cost per lb of getting a fish if I do it myself is probably ten time that of getting it from the store.
I no longer hunt either, I found it boring and not worth the effort. I do eat meat hunted by others though. I still have a .22 and a 12 gauge for occasional target and trap shooting. It's a lot less dangerous than owning ad using a car, which I also do.
Amen, at least most intelligent hunters. My Dad survived during the depression, killing a pheasant a day (S.D. had over 60 million pheasants at the time). My brothers and I would jump fences and run like mad to get to a bird as it fell to the ground if it were winged only, so we could immediately kill it, and it would not lie there and suffer, and the meat would be wasted if it sneaked a few feet away and hid under the grass. We killed for the meat, and killed as humanely as possible.
You, and most of the hunters in this forum, are describing the best possible scenario for a hunter. And yet there is ample evidence of hunters who hunt purely for sport, relentlessly support predator eradication (which devastates the ecosystem whether you care to admit it or not), and couldn't care less how their actions impact the environment so long as they get their trophy kill. (Case in point: Alaskan moose and caribou hunters who are fine with wolves being wiped out because they are too narcissistic to realize that wolves are a keystone species without whose presence the ecosystem collapses.) I have no problem with hunters who take only what they need, who *actually* make sure that nothing goes to waste (though I've never actually met a hunter who doesn't leave most of the carcass rotting), and who respect the ecosystem *as it exists* and do not demand that the government change the balance of nature to benefit the human hunters. But do not attempt to insult your audience by implying that this is the status quo of the hunting industry. You are too easily proven wrong.
Offer a point. Provide examples. Or cite references. To do otherwise is disingenuous and incites the nener-nerner-nener that you have so wittily engaged in.
July 4, 2012 at 2:22 am |
Guest
I made no claims, so I have no burden of proof.
Right back at you.
July 4, 2012 at 4:08 am |
Peteyroo
Jest, I see you have your head up your backside again.
Are you looking out through your belly button PettyPetey?
July 3, 2012 at 10:51 pm |
advocatusdiaboli
Few natural predators eat the the whole animal including the skeleton either. Distorting the true with lies only works for others who hate hunting like you do. The rest of us see the lies.
We killed and used all the meat. I never really understood people who killed for a trophy head, or fished, and upon actually catching the fish, threw it back in. I only speak of the mostly farmers who I knew who were very careful hunters, cared about animals, and cared about other people. Though, we did show some condescension toward the part-time hunters from the city who didn't follow ethical rules (perhaps not as much sneering condescension as you show towards all hunters, but condescension nevertheless).
any hunter that leaves game is breaking the law...period...hunters are full the management of wolves, like all species they need to be controlled or they take over....
watch a wolf kill a animal and tell me hunting is cruel....
any hunter that leaves game is breaking the law...period...hunters are for the management of wolves, like all species they need to be controlled or they take over....
watch a wolf kill a animal and tell me hunting is cruel....
I'm not going to read the whole inane back and forth, but will pose a question. If humans are supposed to subsist only on a vegetable diet wouldn't we, shouldn't we, be equipped with a rumen, a reticulum, an omasum, and an abomasum? And then there is that nagging fact that the human digestive system has no capability to digest cellulose. Darn facts...
Don't forget about the B-12 saga and complete protein. Many folks would have died in the last thousands of years without eating meat, insect and other protein sources.
Why? You've not convinced me with your stellar debating skills.
July 4, 2012 at 2:24 am |
Vern Sawyer
No.
July 4, 2012 at 9:13 am |
lena
if that what we need, I and many other vegans throughout the ages would be dead by now and we wouldn't be able to digest vegan food. B12 comes from soil, organic plant-food has it if not washed in javex. Maybe meat eaters eat more B12, but it doesn't mean they are not deficient. First of all, some of it is distorted in the highly acidic stomach due to the large amounts of acid required to break down animal porting. Second, the same acidic environment coagulates our blood, our red blood cells loose their negative charge, stick to each other and can't go through our capillaries. This alone prevents oxygen and nutrients to get to our bodily cells. On the other hand, the healthy red cells of a vegan person can bring in full the little B12 found in organic foods.
ThE B-12 problem was established in the medical/Scientific community and a well know fact. Not sure where your info is coming fro?. Many people have problems assimilating B-12 due to pernicious anemia and low HCl. Animal protein has bio-available B-12. Persons from generations ago would not have had food/vitamin choices to accomodate these issues and this is the point.
The scientists also claimed that plant-based foods do not have the all the essential amino-acids and so forth. The problem is that they never researched into the vegan diet. It is not too late though, there are many, many vegans now and hopefully one day people in the medical field will start comparing vegans verses meat-eaters. Than they can say for sure... btw, according to a large Tufts university study as many as 40% of Americans have a b12 deficiency, most of their diets consists of animal protein.
you don't have to be a scientist or a doctor to realize that food is what makes us sick or healthy.... And if you look a bit more into the science of a human body, you will realize how different kinds of denature protein destroys one's digestive system. Why rely solely on the opinion of doctors. Sometimes they don't have time to look into the new findings and research. Sometimes they don't want to accept they are wrong. Many people got off the medications and are still alive because they changed to a plant-based diet. If a plant-based diet can heal why does one need to be a scientist or doctor to figure that animal products cause diseases? btw, doctors also get sick. if they knew the secret, they would be healthier.
July 3, 2012 at 9:18 pm |
Primal 4 Life
You use supplements. DO NOT lie about it and say you do not. There is no other way to get what you need, period.
Meanwhile those of us following the Primal Blueprint need not supplement at all.
our body is designed to digest fruits, legumes, whole grains and vegetables. If one has a variety of these foods, all the nutrients are included and the body doesn't have to struggle to break down the complicated denatured animal protein. I've mentioned earlier, all animal protein coagulates our blood – our red blood cells change their negative charge to positive and can't go through capillaries to provide oxygen and nutrients to our bodily cells. All of our decease start with unhealthy cells, and our cells start deteriorating when the blood can't provide bring to them oxygen, nutrients and remove the waste and Carbon Dioxide. there are many other detrimental side affect of eating animal protein including enzyme deficiency, cholesterol problems, excess denatured protein, constipation....
OMG you could not be more wrong if you tried. There is not a mammal on the planet that was meant to eat grains. Yes that is right, not one. Birds are the only group of animals that do well on grains.
Grains were never meant to be consumed by humans. In fact, consumption of grains is the reason we face widespread obesity. A whole grain bagel is worse for you than a doughnut for sobbing out loud.
Please just stop talking. You are doing nothing but harm to the people you claim to care about. Knock it off already.
Our bodies are meant to digest vegetables, fruits, and meat.
We are NOT meant to digest grains. If we didn't grind and cook grain, it would come out the exact say way it went in, and land in a nice pile of fertilizer. Grains spread their seeds by mammals eating them and then "dropping" them.
An example of an animal designed to eat grains would be a bird, and they have a specialized organ (gizzard) that they use with sand/pebbles to grind to grain so they can digest it.
Punked 4 Life, are you saying that animals have no right to life? Are you saying that humans, based and their ability to kill at they please, have the right to kill? Might makes right?
PETA does what they can to make the world a better place for all living beings.
It's the NRA that's actually a terrorist organization. A lot of lives lost because of their influence, most recently Trayvon Martin. They don't care about people, they just want to get as many guns into people's hands as possible legally and illegally.
Their days would be numbered if a lot of lawmakers weren't in their pockets.
And all for money, like all corporations. Profit over people. Money over life:(
July 5, 2012 at 11:22 pm |
hunters are anti-wildlife terrorists
Hunters are anti-wildlife terrorists. They get off on smoking animals such as coyotes, wolves, cougars, bears, foxes, etc with their high powered rifles. They are cowards who love killing wildlife. They are not conservationists. Yes, they pay to slaughter wildlife, but that is because they have to. If they don't, they are breaking the law and killing wildlife illegally.
Well I have looked in the law books, murder pertains only to the killing of another human. There isn't a single law on the books that attributes the killing of an animal as murder.
NEXT!
July 4, 2012 at 12:50 am |
Peteyroo
Pimped 4 Life, it's time to change the laws!
July 4, 2012 at 1:34 am |
Virgel
Lily is absolutely correct on her entire outlook of "hunting for your own dinner". She has a very good grasp on the subject. I was however confused with the word SPORT used in the poll. I chose hunting for sport and food because i took SPORT to mean for the challenge and enjoyment of being in the outdoors. I do not hunt to hang something on the wall but its always a great treat to be lucky or good enough to tag a mature animal while trying to fill the freezer.
It is nearly impossible to explain to ANTIs the meaning/feeling of hunting,killing, butchering and eating a wild animal. Personaly its a scenario of emotions. Excitement and a head full of adrenaline at the moment of the shot, a tinge of remorse at the sight of the lifeless animal, genuine gratitude for the earths gift and finally an awesome feeling of satisfaction while eating venison backstraps and drinking an earthy wine with friends or family. Not many things are as satisfying.
If you despise hunting, yet eat meat, you are a hypocrite. Unless you are a true vegan, (no animal products) you are a hypocrite.
I have been a hunter for as long as I can remember. I was raised to be as self-sufficient as I could be. I can remember helping to clean long guns at about 8 or 9 years of age.
It is free range meat, killed with the blessing of the department of Natural Resources, It cuts down on car/ deer accidents (thus saving lives), It is very lean, healthy food for my family, and it comes in a biodegradable wrapper (which can also be used),
It is no different than eating the meat provided by your butcher, other than your meat lived in a cage, while mine roamed free.
I am paying for ammo, weapons, permits, tags, gas, lodging, food and drinks along the way, camo clothing (expensive), blinds, deer stands, hiking boots (special), as well as taxes! All of this supports jobs and tourism. The fees paid to hunt pay for conservation efforts here and around the world. Hunters are the greatest conservationists you will ever meet.
@truthordare7, deer herds are uneven across the country. Some places they are more scarce, and in others there are unlimited deer tags available because the deer herds are too large! It has a great deal to do with the terrain, food, and predators. Coyotes, are a problem for young deer, and even mature healthy bucks can be brought down by them. (that has been proven on camera). In answer to your question, Yes, control the predators, and there is plenty for all.
Keep in mind as well, there are hunting seasons (allowed dates to hunt) beyond those dates (set by the state and DNR) you may not hunt. The only animals that can be hunted year round are coyotes, groundhogs, and wild boar (which are not indigenous to the United States, and the DNR want eradicated. (they destroy the habitat of many other creatures).
And even for Boars, I must have a valid hunting permit (fees and taxes) I am a hunter, and proud of it!
Kibbles, you're proud of killing things. How admirable! Are you compensating for a small endowment? Or perhaps you wet the bed too much? You feel inadequate unless you have absolute power over life and death for animals?
Punked 4 Life, say hi to your mom for me. Tell her I won't be able to see her tonight.
July 3, 2012 at 10:12 pm |
Primal 4 Life
If you want to be with my mom, more power to you. I mean I love her, she is my mom, but GROSS!
Seriously, if you can do that, but not hunt, you have serious issues the like of which the world has no answer for.
July 3, 2012 at 10:42 pm |
Peteyroo
Punked 4 Life, yet you continue to give answers.
July 3, 2012 at 11:27 pm |
advocatusdiaboli
We are proud to be human and it's in our DNA to kill to eat. We have canine teeth for a reason. You are fee to deny this and not to follow your destiny if you like, but your judgment is meaningless to most of the rest of us. I am sure you oppose all fishing as well.
Peteyroo
"Kibbles, you're proud of killing things. How admirable! Are you compensating for a small endowment? Or perhaps you wet the bed too much? You feel inadequate unless you have absolute power over life and death for animals?"
Limperoo, Why yes, yes I am. It takes great talent and skill to do what I do. But don't worry, With unlimited practice and those round pointed scissors they taught you to use in kindergarten, you too might one day be able to sneak up on your dinner successfully.
" Are you compensating for a small endowment?" I am afraid so. You see, in my family, anything less than 24 inches IS considered small, and at only 18" I am thought of as the runt of the pack. While most of the men in my family can wear crew socks, I must wear knee highs to keep the tip warm while I hunt. But that is my cross to bare.
" Or perhaps you wet the bed too much?" How much IS too much? What is your limit?What amount do YOU find acceptable?
" You feel inadequate unless you have absolute power over life and death for animals?""You are right, you know....The bunny rabbit made all the right career choices, and got the big office that I wanted. So in revenge I snuck out in the middle of the hunting season, and went Postal on every living thing I saw!
Limperoo, Elementary school children could give you lessons in Mockery. You suck at it, Give it up
I don't hunt on state game land, I hunt on tribal land. My mom's people have hunted since time began. We have very strict rules about what/where/when and how to hunt. None of the animals are trophies, all of the animal is used for food of clothing. We honor the animals spirit upon it's death. So, am I going to get told how wrong it is for my tribe to still hunt and keep some of our ancient traditions? Probably.
Punked 4 Life, Native Americans have a completely different relationship with nature. The illegal immigrants who arrived on these shores starting with Columbus changed evgerything, and not for the better.
July 3, 2012 at 10:15 pm |
Primal 4 Life
If you really think that Peteyroo, then you should really leave this land. If not, you are noting but a hypocrite, period.
July 3, 2012 at 11:15 pm |
ONTHunter
So Native Americans are entitled to hunt, but the rest of the human race should do away with it?? Humans are humans. We are hunter/gatherers by nature. Only in recent history have we evolved to the commercialization of produce. People would grow what they needed for the year, they would hunt what they needed for the year....Its who we are as human beings. If you choose to succumb to the commercialization and privatization of food products go right ahead, I will still be in the bush doing what I love. I love to be one with nature, I love the thrill of the hunt, and I love the taste of wild meat. I love knowing, as I look at my plate, that I killed that animal, cleaned it, butchered it, and cooked it for my family's consumption. The fiddleheads next to the steak were hand picked by me, the blueberry sauce for the meat was made from fresh blueberries picked by me in the wild. That is what hunting is all about. Its not just about the kill.
You respect what you eat when you have to do the dirty work yourself. Thought two, we should eat invasive species; wild pigs, Asian Shrimp and asian carp. There are millions of wild pigs destroying the US and Asian shrimp are eating the native gulf shrimp. Asian Carp were brought here as a food source, I know they don't sound or look appealing but carp handled well is decent.
Agreed! Unfortunately for me, I live in one of the few areas where there are no wild boar at all. If they were anywhere near me I'd have one in the freezer every year. There isn't much better than providing for yourself from the plains to the plate. I love knowing that I was involved in every aspect of my meal.
The difference between myself and vegans/vegetarians, I would never even consider forcing them to join me. They, on the other hand, have no trouble at all trying to force us to join them. They have no concept of what freedom means at all.
Punked 4 Life, no one is forcing you to do anything. If you can live with the immorality of murdering animals you don't need to survive, be my guest. Just don't claim it's right or necessary.
Ah but it is right, and it is necessary. That fact that you think otherwise, is 100% irrelevant.
There is only ONE way to know for sure what you consume is safe. That way is if you do the harvesting yourself.
July 3, 2012 at 11:02 pm |
Peteyroo
Punked 4 Life, balderdash! That is absolute nonsense, my confused friend.
July 3, 2012 at 11:32 pm |
Primal 4 Life
Sorry but you are the one who is wrong. It's OK though, it's clear you like being wrong.
July 3, 2012 at 11:44 pm |
Peteyroo
Punked 4 Life, are you willing to take on a grizzly bear with no weapons other than you hands and your wits?
July 3, 2012 at 11:54 pm |
Mark
Thanks for a well written article. As a hunter, I feel a connection to nature that I never do when merely observing from the sidelines, as you stated so eloquently. I love being afield with my english setter, and upland game birds like pheasants, grouse, chukars, quail, etc. are flat out delicious!! Much, much better than anything I can buy in a grocery store. I enjoy the whole experience of hunting and make no apologies for it. Humans have always been hunters and active participants in nature, and always will be. There's nothing barbaric about that. It is one of the most supremely honest pursuits in life.
I agree about hunting. Responsible hunters hunt only what they need and it is great food. I can't understand hunting for sport. There is nothing sporting in hunting an animal that has no defense against a high powered rifle with a scope which many hunters use. A sport would be hunting big bear with a single shot musket.
Punked by Lifers, your head is up your backside, my friend. When you are sitting in a bar getting loaded with your buddies, do you talk about how you plan to kill those who have no power to stop you? I suggest hunters hunt each other. It would be fair. You are too cowardly to do that.
July 3, 2012 at 10:21 pm |
hunters are anti-wildlife terrorists
You're a worthless cowardly filth who kills wildlife with his high powered rifle while dressed in camo. You love killing animals don't ya you anti-wildlife freak?
July 3, 2012 at 10:30 pm |
hunters are anti-wildlife terrorists
A harvest on hunters? A lot of people would support that. The cowards who kill wildlife love shooting at targets that can't shoot back.
July 3, 2012 at 10:31 pm |
Primal 4 Life
You know what, I will agree to that, so long as you participate. I will even give you a far better rifle than I use. It would bring me great pleasure to remove your 100% flawed DNA from the gene pool. As an expert Marine sharpshooter,I won't even be a little bit worried. You're welcome for the freedom btw.
What, you don't want to do that? Big surprise cowards. At least you know that you would be owned.
July 3, 2012 at 11:22 pm |
Peteyroo
Punked 4 Life, sounds good to me, my cowardly friend. One rifle (open sights), one pistol, and one knife. Scopes are too cowardly. You can bring your grandmother to read the map (topographical) and carry your ammo. We'll start 25 miles apart somewhere in Big Bend Nat'l Park. We can only have what we carry, except of course whatever your grandmother can carry for you. To give you any semblence of a chance, I'll wear a fluorescent orange jumpsuit and you can wear desert camo–just to even the playing field a bit. Also you can wear a bulletproof vest and I won't. You can have night-vision goggles as well (granny, too). I won't need them. Let's see what else. Oh, I'll go barefoot while you wear boots. That should make it even. Bon chance!
July 3, 2012 at 11:47 pm |
Primal 4 Life
LMAO bring it peon. you have no chance. Please make sure your last will and testament is in order, you will need it.
You will never even see me.
July 4, 2012 at 12:54 am |
Peteyroo
Punked 4 Life, I won't see you because you'll be cowering behind your grandmother. I'll make it even more fair. You can have a quad-four (or whatever they're called). That would be noisy and I'd spot you, or should I say hear you, immediately. No, I think a golf cart would be better. They're quiet, but where would you charge it? I'm just trying to level the playing field. I could blow a whistle every few minutes, so you could hear me. I could carry a squealing pig under one arm, or maybe tie one arm behind my back. There's just no way to give you a fair chance.
July 4, 2012 at 1:25 am |
hunters are anti-wildlife terrorists
primal 4 life is a coward who enjoys shooting at things that can't shoot back. You are a worthless and spineless coward.
July 4, 2012 at 8:34 am |
scott
Imagine PETA hunting hunters....boy that would be fun.....Peta would be gone from the planet in a month...maybe less
July 4, 2012 at 9:21 am |
Tom
Don't be silly PettyPetey, you can't "murder" an animal. And the Disney Cartoon watching PETA Terrorists are some of the dumbest people on the face of the Earth.
Whoops, I misspelled avocado. The devil is in the green details.
July 3, 2012 at 11:56 pm |
advocatusdiaboli
Is a Bobcat a murderer then? A Cougar? A hawk? An Eagle? A snake? Only an infantile mind sees things is such absolutes while ignoring the numerous facts to the contrary. Grow up and put away childish beliefs.
as long as they don't eat you, why bother..... Who cares about others. It seems that you are among those who do not reflect much upon what they say. I'm sure you wouldn't be such a hero if you were the victim. There are many tyrants throughout the history who begged for forgiveness when their life was in danger.
You do know I was being sarcastic. Don't understand your comment.
Back to sarcasm.
There are many cannibals out there who are looking to feast on anyone. Maybe the hunter becomes the hunted. At least it's a level playing field. Now you can call it a sport;)
Emotionally stunted terrorist. PettyPetey, you are in need or a Thorazine drip.
July 3, 2012 at 10:48 pm |
Peteyroo
Tums, I'm in need of a decaf drip roast 20oz tumbler of coffee.
July 4, 2012 at 12:01 am |
ONTHunter
The only thing going drip right now is the blood from my half cooked deer steak smothered in montreal steak spice. mmmmmmm mmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
July 4, 2012 at 6:00 pm |
Vern Sawyer
You say that sarcastically, but no joke, hunting and killing an animal unarmed would be totally awesome. Boxing a deer to death or snapping a bear's neck would both make for great hunting stories.
Great article. Like was stated most birdwatchers, hikers, and bikers don't realize the land they use to pursue their hobbies was probably paid for by hunters. In my home state of PA gamelands are bought using only money earned from selling hunting licenses.. But sadly most dont realize this
yeah he was dumb as rocks when it came to ethics but I will NOT stoop to the level of including that cretin in my thoughts. Sorry. Omnivores can stand proud without sludging down to that one.
Well if you really want to be 'ethical' you should only hunt with a spear or bow and arrow that way your skill set is almost equal to that of your prey. If you are just sitting up in a deer blind or whatever you're just 'killin' you're not 'huntin'
Um, Human's advantage is intelligence and the ability to work in groups to develop things like weapons. Since they all evolved on the same planet, its not really an unfair advantage. Also an interesting fact is that in pure biomass bacteria make humans look insignificant.
So Jake, it was okay when some nations who had guns landed on other countries and shot/massacred the people of those lands because they did not have guns.... same logic? And intelligence means that humans have the capability to make an ethical and humane choice on the way they act, including the choice to kill or not to kill. Its called evolving after learning that an act is not desirable or fine....
So Ms Berry, now that humanity has you here to look back and decide for us what's right and wrong, I guess we can all just turn off our own free will and default to you. How wonderful.
On second thought, I think I'll continue to make up my own mind and leave you alone up on your high horse.
July 3, 2012 at 9:16 pm |
ease
Or if you're real brave, you would kill the animal with your bare hands. Real courageous killing defenseless animals. Not much of a sport is it.
Who cares about sport? Sometimes you just feel like eating meat, and the deer in your back yard happens to be closer than the grocery store. No different from picking an apple off a tree.
I don't know how it works. Lets say for example all the population of the meat eaters decided to adopt your point of view and go hunt for their meat, would there be enough game to feed them all? Now, instead of 12.5 million hunters, you suddenly have 150 or 200 million hunters looking for their share of the meat. Can the wilderness support such a vast number? Just curious.
We humans are destroying everything. Human overpopulation, terrible human activities, encroachment on natural lands. Nature is more important in that without it, we would not exist. Without humans, nature would grow and flourish.
We need to curb our arrogance.
Humans are truly the most dangerous and dumbest animals on the planet.
I think your mindset is fabulous and I wish it would take root in more in the mainstream. This is the ultimate conclusion that we all must come to. It's no longer feasible to be living like this and more needs to be done to educate the masses about the threat of the weight of our own population.
I want to point out that the Earth has no concern for the success or failure of any living species and it will almost never be void of life within the next 5 billion years no matter what climate "catastrophes" occur. Your stay here is pointless, meaningless and without ultimate conclusion. There is no purpose, product or rational reason for your existence other than a collection of clever mutations. Go ahead and have your nuclear war, in fact. The Earth will live on and so will countless species to take your place. Continue this unsustainable population growth and continue your exploration into the realm of disease and gene manipulation. Continue to cling to myth, superstition and faith and I promise you, you will receive the culling this species so desperately needs.
...Oh. Ain't going to be pretty, by the way. Hold steadfast to your resolve, you're going to need it.
Viva Nepal!
July 4, 2012 at 8:09 am |
Vern Sawyer
Humans are the only animals that make halfway decent conversationalists.
July 4, 2012 at 8:24 am |
Guest
Absolutely not. If most Americans had to directly feed themselves in this manner, a good 80-90% of you would starve. Some within a week.
However, ethical hunters do more conservation work than any of the people commenting here telling us all what we should eat do. Go talk to someone from your local Elk's Lodge and see how much work they put in to maintain the herds they hunt. They won't even bother with telling you what their license fees paid for, they'll tell you about the work they did with their own hands.
So don't, that's fine. It's not required in modern society. But the original comment asked if the environment could support all of us hunting and it obviously couldn't.
It's the anti-hunting folks that are trying to force their agenda on hunters, not the other way around.
July 4, 2012 at 4:13 am |
scott
yet ANTIS say Archery hunting is the most cruel form of hunting...which is it ?
Seems to me animals eating each other is the cruelest way of hunting/killing. Wolves ripping a partially-born elk calf out of its dam and tearing it apart, or bringing down a derr etc and ripping out the rear end and guts first while the animal is still alive. A well-placed arrow or bullet is much more quick and merciful.
Obviously I meant "deer" but can't edit after posting.
July 4, 2012 at 2:13 pm |
Rita Hoffman
Lady – get a spear and some rocks for weapons, then get close to naked like our ancestors in some nasty weather, and starve yourself for a few days before going on the hunt. Then it will be a fair fight. You have no idea how to really hunt and we haven't since we invented scopes, electronics, gortex and portable 3 room tents. Your senses are not even involved. You just took a walk in the park to kill a living creature just because it was your pleasure and not because you had to in order to survive. Shame!
Unfortunately, your logic is a bit off. Humans would hunt in packs. They would track an animal, and then chase it at a steady jog. Because furred mammals do not have the ability to sweat, they over heat after running for so long. Humans are built to run. It would not be long before the group of humans had the animal surrounded and killed. This form of hunting causes incredible stress on the animal, who is basically dead from exhaustion. Is this how hunting should be carried out?
You've obviously never hunted. It's not as simple as taking a "walk in the park". If you put in the time and effort to actually find out where the deer are going to be, then the oppurtunity may present itself. After you climb a tree and remain motionless and quiet for several hours. Then, if an animal even decides to come by, you still have to make the shot. Which by no means at all is easy. You use all of your senses to hunt. No matter how rich you are and no matter how much technology you use.
I'd have to get to be a crack shot before I did this. I want the animal death to be as painless as possible, which means I'm closer but not quite ready. Humans do mainly need meat or fish in their diet. I'm alll for vegetarianism, but veganism needs too many artificial supports to be realistically viable. And sometimes even with those, it fails.
I don't want to eat supermarket factory farmed meats. Whether a hunter shoots dinner for me, or a responsible sustainable livestock person provides me with goat or lamb or poultry, it is part of a good healthy humanity. Yes, we can stop eating meat and take the toll in health. And indeed many of us in the First World eat too much of it. So, I'll eat it responsibly, without tossing my health to risk. When I am ready to hunt on my own, I will.
I like what you're saying. I became a crack shot (minute of angle at 200 yards) with careful hand-loading and practice with the 30-06 before I went hunting, for the same reason you stated: I felt it my responsibility if I was going to hunt to maximize the likelihood of a clean kill.
Lily – Very nice article. Yes, I hunt but there is much more to it that just Food and/or Sport. I love a hunt that ends with organic game meat in my freezer but most of all I just like being out in the woods with friends, family, or even alone. I've come back from many "unsuccessful" hunting trips with a big smile. Unfortunately, a lot of folks don't understand that wildlife conservation is funded primarily by hunters. Not to mention the big economy boost brought to small rural towns that rely on motels, restaurants, sporting goods stores, and other local businesses to get busy during hunting season. Sure, there is the occassional poacher, unethical hunter, or unsafe d-bag our there that gets some media attention and gives the other 99% a bad name. But if you take away the hunter, wildlife management and conservation will suffer. A perfect example is the Yellowstone elk herd. What used to be the mother of elk herds has been decimated by over 70% since 1995. The main reason? Wolves were introduced and management was not allowed by individual states under the endangered species act. The wolf population blew up and killed 1000s of elk and most of the moose in YNP. Anti-hunting groups were able to sue and sue to keep these vicious killers on the endangered list many years after a full recovery of the wolf. The hunter was taken out of the equation and now deer, elk, moose, and sheep quotas have been severely reduced in the states of Montana and Idaho. Smaller quotas equals less money for wildlife conservation and less money for local business. Everyone suffers...except the wolf of course.
humans should not interfere with nature. We started hunting and made a havoc of everything. Don't cut the forest for pastures and farms and we won't have to introduce wolves. Every time man introduce something, something else went wrong. If we humans don't destroy nature for our egoistic purposes, there is nothing to be fixed. If nature needed us to help, we would be manufacturing babies in a mother's womb. Nature is perfect as long as human's don't do something unnatural. No need for hunting, just be vegan, take as little as possible from nature and put the guns away. It is not a toy and our children shouldn't even know about them.
In that case, humans need to stop reproducing immediately. We're at 7 billion and growing. It's an unsustainable number. How many children do you have? your friends? Zero Population Growth is too much now, we need to shrink our numbers drastically.
How many people do you know who are willing to have one child? or none?
Um, every single person on earth can fit inside the state of Texas with room to spare. The notion that we are over populated is complete rubbish. A myth put forth by evil eugenicists who wish nothing more than to be free of what they deem unworthy people. I believe the tern they use is "useless eaters."
July 3, 2012 at 10:00 pm |
ONTHunter
So the way to be "natural" is to become vegan and abandon what our bodies were built to do? Sounds unnatural to me. Humans are hunters/gatherers by nature...So lets shut down the farming and supermarket industry and let everyone fend for themselves, like the good ol days. We'll see how long your beans and corn last when the looters come to steal from you and you have no firearm to defend yourself.
Every study has shown that in the event of a significant natural disaster, people who hunt, fish, and know the woods are the most likely to survive. You enjoy your processed tofu, I will continue to do what I was made to do...hunt, fish, and enjoy the outdoors. Cheers!
Ethics has nothing to do with how anyone obtains their daily meals, unless they are stealing or lying to get them. This author needs a dictionary and a cheeseburger.
A bunch of self serving crap. No mater how the animal is treated you still kill it. Making it fell better before hand doesn't make a difference. In highly populated areas where there are few animals, this will not work. Also, giving guns to more people isn't exactly safe. Animals get diseases too. Suppose the animal you kill is diseased and you can't tell then what? What about individuals in the meat industry put out of work?
Hunters seek to protect land from development, preserving and or expanding roadless areas in order to maintain a natural ecosystem. Besides, the whitetail deer has proven to increase it's population density in suburbs and other areas where humans have encroached upon their territory.
Hunters buying guns to hunt is perfectly fine. Criminals, miscreants and others having guns can lead to problems....but they cannot obtain guns legally, if they can't get it legally, what makes you think they would obey other laws?
Animals do get diseases, and hunters have been at ground zero for preventing prion diseases such as CWD. Beyond that animals can spread disease locally to crops and watersources. If hunters are hunting and controlling the population while additionally providing valuable feedback to local biologists those diseases can be controlled and eradicated.
What about the local communities that depend on the money spent by hunters, fisherman and anyone else that use the land that hunters had a part in protecting. Studies have shown that the outdoor industry contributes over $600B (that's a B for billion) annually to the economy. This is from hunters, bikers, skiers, snowboarders, birders, hikers and anyone else who seeks to enjoy our national forests, wilderness areas and other public lands. Further since 1937 the Robertsman-Pittman Act (an excise tax levied by hunters on themselves) has contributed over a billion dollars to conservation. Hunters through the purchase of guns and bullets are taxed for conservation. Hunters through the purchase of licenses and tags contributes to conservation. Hunters who travel to communities to contribute to local economies. Hunters who are members of conservation organizations give their additional dollars to conservation.
Without all the people (who are mainly duck hunters or their friends) contributing to sources such as Ducks Unlimited - I doubt there'd be many ducks in our skies today.
I am about to go make a perfectly grilled T-Bone steak from a local grass cow. With every delectable bite I will be think about the look on poor lena's face. It will make every bite even that much more delicious.
Saturday I will be slow cooking two entire beef shoulders, (Texas clod,) I will dedicate them to lena and mike. Then I will serve them to my many guests and they will enjoy their best meal of the week.
I'm sure that some people had your reaction – to do what they like doing even if it might be wrong. But some will think about it and research. I love open minded people who think. I love you too but I don’t respect that you are going to eat a cow. And please, do not dedicate someone’s shoulder to me or mike… Dedicate it to your ego. Cheers. I have to go now.
IT ISN'T WRONG, PERIOD. You simply think it is, that doesn't mean anything. You are nobody, you have no say. You have no authority whatsoever to deem right and wrong for anyone but you. Get that through your feeble little mind. I don't tell you you must hunt, you do not get to tell me I can't hunt, period. There is no other choice.
You can keep lying to yourself to feel better but that is all you are doing.
ohhh, it seems I got you mad... sorry. If we were living only 300 year ago when some were killing 'innocent' others on a guillotine pretending to protect the society and you where among the procecutors, we would have the same conversation: you would tell me to mind my own business and not to tell you not to kill.
July 3, 2012 at 7:28 pm |
Primal 4 Life
You are G D right I am mad. I don't foist my lifestyle on you. I absolutely DEMAND that you do not foist your lifestyle on me, or anyone else that doesn't agree with you.
In a FREE COUNTRY, that is absolutely a reasonable compromise.
July 3, 2012 at 10:20 pm |
Peteyroo
Wrong answer Punk Man. We have a moral duty to call you out and expose you as a murderous slimeball.
July 4, 2012 at 5:01 pm |
Primal 4 Life
Well I do not respect you at all. None, nada, zilch. You don't even deserve to live in America with your pathetic attitude. If it were up to me, I'd toss ya out like trash.
Pimped 4 Life, what? You're not inviting me to your barbecue? I'm hurt. I'd like to see who is so depraved and mentally ill that they would hang out with you. It takes a special person I am sure. Are you all going to show off your rifles and pretend that you're big-game hunters? Perhaps you'll swap tales of tracking your kills for days through dense underbrush while dodging crocodiles and komodo dragons. Hunting is dangerous. You can skin your knee or get a sticker in your finger.
Punked by Lifers, don't be such a hard-nosed pain in the backside. You're overreacting to everything, my bedwetting friend. The last time I saw you, you were passed out on the floor of the Dew Drop Inn, a notorious "Gentlemen's" club catering to low-life losers such as yourself. You are overcompensating for your obvious character flaws by being such a rabid killer/hunter.
Lena, let me wax philosophical for a moment. For sake of argument, let's forget about all the cruel and abusive methods used in the raising and slaughtering of animals. These methods are both inhumane and unethical. But now, let's say a cow , chicken, etc. is raised humanely and enjoys a relatively good life for a year or two and then slaughtered for human consumption. Apart from the need of humans, the vast majority of these animals would never come into existence. What do you suppose the animals preference would be, non-existence or an enjoyable life followed by harvesting?
Just imagine that you are that chicken... Would you be ok if someone would raise you in a palace just to kill you at the end? Can we imagine the pain of how being killed feels like? The nervous system of an animal is the same as of a human. Why dominate and kill when we can be much healthier and happier by eating a vegan diet. It's just a matter of relearning.
Yes, being the chicken I would choose an enjoyable life over non-existence. The great caveat here is that the animal has no concept of it's eventuality. Here's another eventually: everything dies once.
July 3, 2012 at 6:24 pm |
Tom
Dan, I love hypothetical questions. I have a gun to my head, on a desert island and I am the last man on the planet. LOL, In all seriousness, I think the cow would prefer to not be killed and live out its natural life. All domesticated farm animals existed as wild animals before man domesticated them. They do not need us to exist.
I think you would concur that were it not for human needs the vast majority of these animals would never exist.
July 3, 2012 at 6:26 pm |
Tom
Dan, you can make that same argument about slaves and African Americans. Without the institution of slavery, the slave trade and slave auctions, almost all African Americans would not exist today. I do not believe African Americans today were request that their ancestors suffer through the brutality of slavery so that they can exist today. Your argument is flawed.
July 3, 2012 at 7:23 pm |
lena
"For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, he who sows the seed of murder and pain cannot reap joy and love." Pythagoras, mathematician, vegetarian
I don't have any bumper stickers on my car, but I LIKE the Co-Exist one. As a future hunter and a current sustainablly farmed meat & seafood eater, do you have any difficulties with co-existing?
"It would appear as if man is really unable to sustain life without either meat or milk and milk products. Anyone who deceives people in this regard or countenances the fraud" – Gandhi 1946
JimOmnivore, did you know that humans are the only mammals that drink the milk of another specie. It started about 10,000 years ago and only 30% of humans adjusted to it and the rest can not digest it. Our lactic enzyme disappear at the age of about three and we are actually the only mammals that drink milk after weaning. I bet that if cats would have bigger boobs you would drink cat milk now. As for the meat, humans are not for eating flesh.... do some research and try to look at things through different lenses.
"My refusing to eat meat occasioned inconveniency, and I have been frequently chided for my singularity. But my light repast allows for greater progress, for greater clearness of head and quicker comprehension." Benjamin Franklin, American statesman, inventor, vegetarian
that's all you know about Leonardo da Vinci? Or you are just saying something for the sake of saying..... I did not cense that he was high from his drawings and discoveries. We humans, always try to put down someone with a higher IQ than ours just to feel good.
My point is he is not a scientist, biologist, or dietician. He was a painter.
What does IQ have anything to do with lifestyle choices? Are vegans somehow magically smarter than the common omnivore? The funny thing is, when the economy finally collapses, we will see who survives. There will be no grocery stores, there will be no farms....BECAUSE THERE WILL BE NO MONEY!!! Yet I will still be in the woods, enjoying the fruits of my labor, and laughing at those who chose to deem me inferior due to my diet choices!!!
July 4, 2012 at 7:27 am |
ekwinne
ONTHunter: you will be laughing for awhile, until your bullets run out and your sniper dot fades. Unless you hunt with a bow and arrow, which you make yourself, or a spear, that you make yourself, you'll be just as worse off as the rest of us in the end.
I don't need bullets to hunt. Unlike you, I have a knowledge of the outdoors. I know how to pattern animals, how to track them, and more importantly, how to snare/trap them. I would be just fine should my 10 000 bullets run out :).
July 5, 2012 at 9:46 am |
lena
"It is very significant that some of the most thoughtful and cultured men are partisans of a pure vegetable diet." Mahatma Gandhi
"It would appear as if man is really unable to sustain life without either meat or milk and milk products. Anyone who deceives people in this regard or countenances the fraud" – Gandhi 1946
Yet PETA (for the most part) is full of inconsiderate, thoughtless, obnoxious criminals.
Its funny, with all the brilliant minds that have presented themselves since the recording of history, there are only a handful of names that you could come up with that are vegetarians. Its probably relatively the same omnivore/vegetarian ratio that we see today.
the reason being that the majority of humans do what is easier and do not want to accept something that might cause inconvenience to them. Think why you don't want to try a vegan diet and if you do it honestly, you might find something unpleasant about yourself. If you tried already, I take back my word. But i don't mean trying for a few hours or days. I mean open your mind, do the best of your food, trick your mind who always wants to go the easiest way and do a lot of research of the newly discovered facts about the detrimental affects of the animal products.
I would rather live a shortened life doing what I want, than live an extended one where I am miserable. I enjoy eating meat, it is delicious. I like knowing that it is my right to eat and drink whatever I choose to, just as it is your right. I have an open mind, I just have no interest in changing to a vegan diet. You are more than welcome to continue eating what you want. I will not criticize your decision. We only live once, so I'm going to enjoy every minute of it doing what I love to do.
July 4, 2012 at 7:33 am |
lena
If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be a vegetarian. ~Paul McCartney
Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on
Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet. ALBERT EINSTEIN (vegetarian)
Of all the quotes you posted, not one of them is a doctor or dietician...you have an astronomer, a painter, a mathematician, a tree hugger, and a musician. None of whom had any clue what they were talking about when it comes to health and diet. I'll stick with the advice of the Department of Health and stick with my 2-3 meat servings a day thank you very much.
all the doctors learn how to heal you and what medications to prescribe to you... .dieticians follow the doctors advice. So far, not many of them looked into the vegan diet cause they think it's nonsense, it goes against what they said so far.... It is hard to admit that you might be wrong. Easy, go to a doctor and take all the tests possible... stay on a vegan diet for 4 months (all it takes for the blood to cleanse) and go back to test yourself again. I am sure you can see a huge benefit earlier than that, but just to be safe. Many, many people healed themselves from cancer, diabetes, Crohn's decease, heart problems and other illnesses with a plant-based diet. if a plant-based diet heals, obviously it can prevent the unnecessary pain.
Ok pinko, I am going to change my diet now because some random person on the internet told me I wont get cancer if I do. As I said before, I'm going to live my life to the fullest. I'm going to go to Lonestar and get their 72oz steak and eat every morsel of it. Why? 1) because I can, 2) because I want to, and 3) its my money, my life, so f##k off.
July 4, 2012 at 7:38 am |
lena
Truly man is the king of beasts, for his brutality exceeds them. We live by the death of others. We are burial places.
—Leonardo Da Vinci (1452–1519 vegetarian)
Just clone the meat without bothering with the rest of the animal. That is no longer Science Fiction. It is being done right now, with fairly good results.
Does that sound "yuck"? It is infinitely less "yuck" than killing tens of billions of birds, animals, and fish every year. Further, we already do eat cultured foods on the megaton scale: cheese comes to mind.
That time will come...and it shall. In the meantime we have this weird woman justifying why she runs around with a bunch of bears in the woods shooting Bambi.
Cheese is no where near the same as lab-grown meat.
And cloned meat? You need to read some Michael Pollan. We can't even get baby formula to be the same as human milk and we've been trying for decades. There are various other substances in meat than just the protein, fat, and the list of vitamins/minerals. What an animal eats even changes the nutritional make-up of the meat (meat from wild game and pastured livestock is leaner and significantly higher in Omega-3s). There are very likely nuances we don't even know to look for at this point in time!
Maybe it is nice now, but wait until more like him will start hunting... I’m sure the beauty won't last long.... So much harm done to the planet and our health just to satisfy our pallet and gluttonous nature….
More and more people in cities are becoming vegan, thanks God.
You got your stats wrong dear... the world is changing faster than you think. Maybe not so much the older generation but the young are moving fast towards a vegan diet.
July 3, 2012 at 5:19 pm |
sam stone
Still blathering on, eh little boy?
July 3, 2012 at 5:25 pm |
Primal 4 Life
Keep up the good work the laughter you create is adding years to my already very healthy life.
July 3, 2012 at 5:35 pm |
Primal 4 Life
LMAO at lena. I live in a college town and spend plenty of time with students. 95% of them eat meat. All of those who eat my cooking come back for more.
NEXT!
July 3, 2012 at 5:36 pm |
greg
Ok Mike, There's great merit in stressing the ethical dimension of our interaction with the other animals that inhabit this planet. That's where the complexity begins. I called your arguments facile (superficial) and fatuous (silly, without substance) because they consistently ignore this complexity. To wit: we as human animals have been hunting and eating other animals for hundreds of thousands of years (and millions more going back to our hominid ancestors); the natural world of which we are a part is and ever has been teeming with predator/prey relationships; and while these facts don't make an ethical argument, they have meaning and weight. Our existence is a vale of tears, Mike, for us and the other animals, and my response to this condition is – good luck and good hunting!
Greg, I wonder if you would make this same argument if we were taking about child molestation or rape? Both predatorial relationships that have existed for thousands of years.
That is a red herring argument, yes hunting for food is an identical relationship to rape and child molestation. Please, can you just accept diversity and live up to that coexist bumpersticker on your car?
That is not a red herring fallacy. Greg is making the argument that predator-prey relationship is a natural part of life, so we should accept hunting and eating meat as right. I am simply pointing out that if you accept that argument then you must accept all aspects of the natural world not just the ones that help your argument.
July 4, 2012 at 2:35 am |
Tom, Tom, The Piper's Son
Tom, you’re an idiot.
July 5, 2012 at 11:16 am |
Justin
There's a great many individuals here who are detached from reality. Living your life in a steel box, walking in concrete jungles, and working in cages has made many delusional. Killing your own meat, raising your own vegetables, and identifying with your natural state will open your eyes to the truth of your human nature. The author recognized it and embraced her animal instincts. Humans are animals, we eat animals, and they are subservient to us. There's no form of food on this planet that does not come to us other than through the death of a living thing. Be honest or be a hypocrite. The choice is yours.
There are many animals that do not kill, why not compare ourselves with them... we weren't born with spears and guns. I’m sure nature didn't make a mistake. Killing is not natural; maybe our ancestors made a mistake like many other mistakes.
One major point of hunting is that you gain an appreciation of the food you eat. We have traversed through history as hunter gathers. We are also scavengers and our adaptability has helped us get where we are. The fact is we can survive on anything hence the reason that we are omnivores. While we can survive on both diets we are better off with a good mix depending on your particular life style. If you don't eat meat its supplemented with nuts etc. the fact is Meat is one of the highest sources of protein on the planet and probably the most accessible. Hunting is in our nature like many other animals on this planet. The primary cause of obesity isn't because we eat too much meat. Its because we eat in a way that is unnatural to us. We simply eat too much and at the wrong time. Most people in this country probably do not even know what its like to feel legitimately hungry, rather they just think they are hungry. So believe what you want, but also have the humility to respect other peoples preferences. Meat is a sustainable energy source for us and its highly effective that's why we have consumed it for thousands of years, at the same time so is plant life etc. True hunters appreciate their kills and acknowledge the struggle between hunter and prey. The feeling is nothing short of primal and quickly learn how unforgiving nature really is.
I am sure that human flesh is also the highest sources of protein on the planet, so what? Every human body is designed the same and will thrive on a vegan diet (unless the mind interferes. alcoholics also think that they can't live with no alcohol, the body is used to it). We don't need that much protein; we need the amino-acids from the protein. Eating protein that is hard to be broken down into amino-acids (like animal protein) is harsh on our digestive system and the organs wear out. A big part of the animal protein can not be digested goes into waste to rotten in our herbivorous intestine. Eating plant-based protein is easily broken down, does not cause acidity in the body and doesn't come with what we don't need like cholesterol, hormones, saturated fats and other detrimental elements.
A vegan diet is not the natural human diet. In fact, you CANNOT SURVIVE on a vegan diet without supplements! And even then, supplements aren't as efficient as getting your nutrients from real food.
There are many "failed vegans" that did everything "right" and still ended up with a slew of health problems due to deficiencies.
There's a reason no cultures have traditionally vegan, they would have died out if they tried! Cultures that are traditionally vegetarian highly prize animal products such as eggs and milk.
And if one has an uneasy feeling about an action he or she does to others, it means is against his/her human dignity. We shouldn't expect to be forgiven if we can avoid making someone to forgive us.
Forget all this ethical this and that. Kill it, gut it, skin it, cook it, eat it. There is no other way. Man has survived that way for thousands of years. Vegetables on the side.
Man survived this way but it doesn't mean its the best way... we could have been much better and healthier as a human race. We learned from predators to kill and eat. Instead, we should have learned from herbivorous and never allow ourselves to go that low. Looking at the herbivorous animals is a pleasure and brings calmness, that's how we should be.
If you take a look at herbivores, omnivores and carnivores its all in the teeth. We, as humans, were born with molars for chewing and incisors for ripping and tearing. Herbivores have large flat teeth all around the mouth. Also, vegetarians kill plants when the eat them. You just dont feel bad because they are structured differently and are not cute furry animals.
Chuckles, you should compare the relative size of the human colon to natural herbivores and carnivores. The Human digestive track is relatively long, which is most similar to herbivores. Carnivores have a relatively shorter digestive tracks to quickly move the meat throught the system. Long digestive tracks work best with high fiber diets, and fiber is only found in plant based sources. Meat contains no fiber, so it is unlikely humans evolved to be a prey animal.
July 3, 2012 at 5:47 pm |
Primal 4 Life
LMAO at lena, so misguided, so delusional, so very, very, wrong.
Mother nature knows far better than you ever will what is best for us and that happens to be the way humans have eaten for 99% of our existence. It was not vegetarian. You cannot improve on that sorry.
You are mixing up nutrition with genetics. Height has more to do with genetics than nutrition. Keep in mind that Elephants, Giraffes, Zebras, Horses and Cows are all naturally large animals that derive all their nutrition from plant based sources. They require much greater amounts of protien, iron, calcium and B12 than humans and they get it all from plants. Yes, Even B12. It is found in bacteria that grows in the ground around plants, and it is produced by bacteria that naturally lives in their colon.
Nature didn't make you a killer, the society did. You are just a follower who does not want to accept that there is a different way, even if it is better. This is the problem with the majority of us.
July 3, 2012 at 5:03 pm |
ONTHunter
Sorry champ, but nature did make us killers. Have you ever researched why humans are fantastic distance runners compared to the rest of the animal kingdom? If you did, you would see that humans, at a slow jog, are capable of running incredible distances. This skill evolved to allow us to chase animals at a slow pace, using pack hunting methods still used in parts of Africa. They would chase the animal to exhaustion, because most mammals can't sweat and rely on breathing to cool their bodies. Killing is what we are built for. We were not built to go to the grocery store and feed the corporate superpowers wallets.
July 4, 2012 at 12:13 pm |
Peteyroo
Horseradish! Killing animals is wrong regardless of who does it. Become a vegetarian–it's healthier and certainly more ethical. If killing things is so fun, I suggest hunters kill each other. At least then there'd be consent on both sides. Animals don't want to be the target of murderous humans.
yes it would be much more kind to allow populations to grow out of controll and wait until disease and starvation take over instead of controlling population through hunting.
Oh, and they'd much rather have their infants be targets of wolves and coyotes and all other predators in the wild? Nature isn't this pretty flower world that you think it is. It's cruel and vicious and human hunters are equal if not more humane than other animal predators. At least we aren't doing what kimodo dragons do, where they bite their prey and them them wander for days as the wound festers and rots and the animal collapses to be eaten alive. Or better yet, lions, who often don't kill their prey, and instead eat it from the rear end forwards since that meat is easier to get to which keeps the prey item alive for the duration of the feeding, as well as when the buzzards come to finish it off.
As for hunters, you know how many deer are hit by cars every year? I've seen a deer be hit by a car and thrash around on the side of the road in agony for hours until a local HUNTER showed up and shot it to put it out of it's misery. A much less peaceful death than being shot with an arrow that allows the animal to bleed out within minutes. But you suggest shooting human beings because they disagree with your paradigm. I think you have your priorities switched up a bit.
Seeing as fruits are designed to be eaten so that their seed will spread to other diverse locations, I'd say yes it was happy and thankful. And did not scream in pain as I enjoyed it.
How can you compare animals to plants? Your compassion is far from feeling the pain of a plant when you can't hear the cry and feel the pain of an animal who is murdered. Than what is the difference between a man, an animal and a plant? Animals are just like us, but in a different shape. Plants also feel pain, but one step at a time… first learn not to eat someone with eyes and flesh like yours.
The only comment that I will make is this and I dont plan on reading anymore either. Mike, don't you have anything better to do than sit for hours and argue a battle where nobody wins on an article comment page? I am a hunter by the way. I enjoy the outdoors, enjoy the hunt, and enjoy eating what I have provided for myself and my family. I am also in the environmental field for a living. I do not dislike you and your ways of being a vegetarian or vegan and respect your choice, just like I prefer respect for mine. Happy hunting to those that do, and have a good day to those that don't. I am now getting off this computer and going to the freezer to get some venison burger out to thaw. God bless all!
As a side for a perfectly grilled, grass fed and finished, steak. No problem at all. I'll even smother it with fresh, hand made, unpasteurized, butter, that I make myself.
This lady should go back to Manhattan where she was belonging. Over there probably the only wild animals that can be hunted and ate are rats (not the human beings, since it is forbidden by the law). The Manhattan area must had the same kinds of animals this lady can hunt today, but they are all being hunted and ate by her or some one else’s ancestors.
The poll doesn't lie! Happy Independence day fellow hunters and conservationist. Thanks for your efforts! Hope to see you on the mountain away from all the madness!
we can selebrate something more noble than hunting. All the suffering we cause to others, but of course it is not us, why think... it is easier not to think but do what pleases us. Eventually all the anguish these animals go through will bite you back. This is the unseen law of the Universe. It is called karma. The hospitals are full of meat eaters.
I wonder how you recognized them.... where you one of the vegans who got sick? I don't know any unless they were sick already before they became vegans.
July 3, 2012 at 4:21 pm |
lena
If we didn't have to grow 10 times more grains to feed the animals, maybe we will also don't use so many pesticides, herbicides and other detrimental to our body chemicals…then, as a vegan, i would be even more healthier. Still, meat has a much higher concentration of pesticides than plant-based foods.
July 3, 2012 at 4:31 pm |
Primal 4 Life
It is not your place, or your right, to tell anyone else not to hunt, period.
We all know you don't hunt and we don't care, now shut it.
This ammunition for political coverage has been brought to you by the NRA, firearm manufacturers' lobby, and Chambers of Commerce in popular hunting states. We want your money! So kill animals!
No, actually, I'm not. Many herbivores, as in, animals that eat only plants, possess canines.
July 3, 2012 at 3:18 pm |
Tom, Tom, The Piper's Son
Okay.. I’m open to learning name a few.
July 3, 2012 at 3:33 pm |
Tom, Tom, The Piper's Son
Answer:
Many, though not all, herbivores have canines. For example, canine teeth can be found in horses and deer, but they are often smaller than the canines found in carnivores. The ‘canine’ of a herbivore is very different in size (relative) and shape than that of an omnivore or carnivore.
I’ve read a number of your posts and you have a habit of shaping the question in such a way as to make it easily disputed to support your view. At best your comments tend to be half truths. The question is.. are you just lying to us.. or to yourself.
July 3, 2012 at 3:47 pm |
lena
canines are for opening a coconut and a herbivourous intestine is for a plant based diet (that's what you and I have). If you can grab an animal as is (not cooked, not ripped of its skin) and just eat it, than you can compare yourself with a lion or a wolf. We are humans, why compare ourselves with predators....
Good Stinking, you learned to hunt and you learned to like meat. You can just as easily learn not to hunt and learn to like vegetables. BTW, that's nonsense about the teeth.
All I meant is that these teeth are not for eating meat.... how many people would use them to eat raw flesh? It makes me sick in my stomach just to think that someone would do that and I’m sure not many.
Meat would traditionally be eaten raw, however with the industrialization of the meat market, there is chances of bacteria from the intestines getting onto the meat during butchering. Thats why we cook our meat, to kill bacteria that could be on it. I went seal hunting with a friend, and after he shot his seal, we were cutting pieces off and eating it right there. Its perfectly safe and healthy.
July 5, 2012 at 9:55 am |
HunterDan
Some hunt, some do not.. We are all different and have different histories, values, tolerance levels, comfort zones etc...
We are a diverse group...I cant believe I used that word.. USA is the wonderful place to live it is because of the freedoms we have-our right to free speech (as all these postings attest), our right to religion/belief systems (or none)- to name just a few..To quote 21k from an earlier post..." do what you wish, just don't tell the rest of us what we need to do to improve our lives. we already have politicians to do that". I could not agree more... Hunt or don't hunt; Eat meat or be a vegan; Eat only what you kill or eat processed meat. Lets just keep the freedom we have to chose what is right for each of us.
Lena chooses to be a Vegan, RH eats meat from the "meat industry"..Both of those decisions are respected.. I chose to hunt, fish, garden, forage and shop for my family's food. I am so glad we have that freedom to chose the source and content of our food. I can only hope that I keep that freedom. From reading many posts above, I have to be concerned that I will not always have that freedom. No banter, no volley: I will not respond to any posts. Do what you do from your dark nameless hole; Tear my words to shreds, it matters not... To the author, Ms McCaulou. I enjoyed the excerpt, I may buy the book. The Omnivore's Dilemma will be on my reading list as well. All be well. Signed, A Father, Provider, Environmentalist, Conservationist, Patriot, Voter, and yes.. a HUNTER.
The freedom to choose can only go so far. Throughout history, people have had to restrict freedom of choice in the name of a more civilized society. This is no different. People shouldn't be able to choose an unethical option.
Tom that is an excellent question, and probably one of the most difficult to answer. What many now considerable despicable acts were viewed as ethical at one time. I believe that at a certain point, things are objectively unethical. These might include murder, rape, theft, etc. Causing needless suffering to sentient animals is also something I would view as objectively unethical, and I think eventually most people will agree.
July 3, 2012 at 3:20 pm |
Tom, Tom, The Piper's Son
I’ll help you out Mike. The answer to the question is; No one. You have no place deciding this for others. This combined with your pseudo-science that humans don’t eat meat pretty much puts you in the tin foil hat club.
July 3, 2012 at 3:36 pm |
Primal 4 Life
Well you have no right whatsoever to make that determination. You are not an elected leader. You can make a suggestion, however I will ignore it and rightfully so. Your part of the scenario ends there, period.
The same thing the slave owners and the oppressors of other countries were saying – don't tell me what to do... As long as defenseless beings are harassed by the strongest, there will not be peace and harmony on this planet. Btw, I can’t see a bunch of vegans starting a war, their compassion encompasses more than just family, friends, and humans. Imagine having more love… that is the best attribute of a human. Love is God, the more the better.
"As long as defenseless beings are harassed by the strongest"
soooo does that mean we have to kill all carnivores? its not their fault nature made them the way they are, should we try to make them vegitarians too?
No matter how hard you try, no matter how much time you waste trying, no matter what you say. I will always hunt without regard to anything you think about and you will NEVER be able to do anything about it.
Perhaps you should try something worthwhile because this ain't it.
LOVE this article! I work for an environmental agency protecting endangered species, have a degree in Environmental science, and am a member of multiple environmental professional and political advocacy groups and I (and MANY of my colleagues) hunt and fish! The author did an awesome job of explaining the benefits of hunting to nature and animal welfare.
-Note: yes it is more sustainable to go vegan, but to ask the world to give up meat is unreasonable and, for some people, very unhealthy. AND if you live in an area where hunting is not a possibility, try buying your meat at a farmer's market or from a small, local farmer.
I think that all the environmental agencies should start informing people that the #1 cause of all the environmental problems come from raising animals for food. This includes biodiversity loss. 60 billion animals... each of them eats in average 5 times more than a human being and most of the food we grow goes into feeding them. If our Governments would inform themselves and educate their citizens on the benefits of a vegan diet and what to eat, we will have a beautiful planet and non-violent people. Killing breeds violence.
Lulu, hunting is murder no matter how you cut it. Don't pretend that it's population control or natural for humans to do it. Humans are smart enough to design a diet that is animal-free and healthy.
Sherwood said: inherently unethical. I have been to a farm and I agree with him. You may be referring to how SOME live stock is raise on SOME cooperate owned farms. But I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt on that one.
The bottom line here is that we have to determine whether or not the suffering of animals matters. If it does matter, then we should avoid needlessly inflicting it for something as insignificant as our personal taste preferences. There is no biological need to eat meat. The ONLY reason 99% of Americans do it is because they like the taste.
Outright lie. You prove yourself to be a fool. Science has proven with, absolute certainty, humans were designed to eat animal products, and thrive as a result.
You don't want them fine, don't eat them. That is were your contribution to the matter ends, period. You have no right whatsoever to decide that for any other human on the planet. You have nothing to say that matters on the subject, end of story.
That is correct. For optimum health and vitality humans need properly raised animal products, period. A vegan/vegetarian must supplement in some way. Can;t be done any other way. I never have to do that and never will.
July 3, 2012 at 2:51 pm |
Mike
Ok well the American Dietic Association disagrees. But I'm sure you know best.
July 3, 2012 at 2:54 pm |
Primal 4 Life
LMAO the ADA. Conventional wisdom has us in the obesity epidemic we find out nation in.
I don't need anyone from the government to tell me anything. People who do, well how sad.
July 3, 2012 at 2:56 pm |
Mike
So the ADA (now the AND) is not only wrong, but responsible for the obesity epidemic despite constantly advocating for healthier lifestyles in which Americans consume less meat? Also, just fyi, they aren't a governmental organization. You must be from the deep south.
July 3, 2012 at 3:02 pm |
Tom
Actually, humans are endowed with a significantly long intestinal track, which indicates that we evolved to eat plant matter. Prey animals, such as lions have relatively short digestive tracks so they can quickly move the meat through their system. This prevents the meat from decomposing in the colon.
So how far do you take this need to prevent animal suffering? If you could force all carnivores and omnivores on earth to eat nothing but fruits, vegetables, and grass would you do it? Is the pain that the antelope feels when the lion clamps down on it's throat a pain you feel you should prevent if you had the means to do so?
I was refering to all carnivores/omnivores in both questions. So animal suffering only matters if it is a result of human action? If that's the case, then it isn't the suffering itself that matters. So the argument really isn't "vegetarianism/veganism should be adopted by all to prevent animal suffering" but rather "vegetarianism/veganism should be adopted by all because I don't like it when people do what other organisms have been doing since the dawn of time".
July 3, 2012 at 3:32 pm |
greg
You seem unable to distinguish between your own (deservedly humble) opinion and what you seem to think are ethical facts. Your arguments are facile, fatuous, and dare I say it? – bloodless. That's a fine joke which I'm sure is wasted on you. As a recent hunter who took up the pursuit for specifically ethical reasons (I purely hate to kill any animal ((except for certain humans)), and had to work hard to get past it), I very much appreciated this author's experience.
Ok Mike, There's great merit in stressing the ethical dimension of our interaction with the other animals that inhabit this planet. That's where the complexity begins. I called your arguments facile (superficial) and fatuous (silly, without substance) because they consistently ignore this complexity. To wit: we as human animals have been hunting and eating other animals for hundreds of thousands of years (and millions more going back to our hominid ancestors); the natural world of which we are a part is and ever has been teeming with predator/prey relationships; and while these facts don't make an ethical argument, they have meaning and weight. Our existence is a vale of tears, Mike, and my response to this condition is – good luck and good hunting!
@Mike where I am from our main wildlife is deer due to farmers killing off most of their natural preditors. Our winters get very long and harsh. Some years the herds are small so hunters are allowed only 1 kill, but during years when the deer are overpopulated there is no restriction on how many kills you can have. The main reason is more deer will suffer and die slowly from starvation when overpopulated then if they were not. We are preditors just like the wolves and it is our part in the ecosystem to keep the populations of certain species down so as to not cause more harm.
Lukewarm, you are not God! You act as if nature could not exist without the interference of man. You really believe that your hunting is reducing suffering and makes nature a less cruel world? That's a tad arrogant. You think becuase you hunt you are one with the wolves? Do you kill with you teech and claws too? No, you use manufactured weapons and then then you drive your Truck or SUV back to your home that is hooked up to the grid. If you hund for sport, then say you hunt for sport. Don't try to convince yourself that you are doing nature a favor.
Murder 4 Life, absolute nonsense. You murder/hunt for pleasure because very few animals fight back and, in any case, you have the gun. If you weren't such a coward, you'd hunt other hunters. Where's your sense of fair play? You do what is easy and safe.
now, for the "avid hunter vs. vegan" debate– let me settle it for you. Neither camp is totally right, and, more importantly, neither camp's attitude comes close to being tolerable. If I saw either of you in the bar, I would stare at my beer until you went away.
I love articles like these. It is so much fun laughing at all the misguided vegetarians and vegans spout of about their superiority when nothing could be further from the truth.
I am so glad I will NEVER have to implement any of their nonsense while being far healthier than they will ever be.
The only way for you to know if you are that HEALTHY, is to find a vagan who doesn't eat only processed food, go to the doctor and compare your tests with his. Check for coagulation of blood; enzyme deficiency; check how the kidney, liver, heart and other organs work; check how clean is your interstine and blood; the level of cholesterol; how good your white cells are.... this might change your opinion about your health. I can't figure out how can you know that you are very healthy.... Our doctors always compare us and set norms by comparing people who are on the death bed and meat-eaters (i don't think they checked the vegans yet and see if there is more room for being healthier)
I have all my blood work done regularly. Since adopting the Primal Blueprint I have never been healthier and I have all the tests and my doctors 100% approval to prove it.
Also, Primal, I am not claiming to be a big tough guy. I am a middle aged accountant. What is your point? Do you just like to bloviate your superiority online? Make you feel like a "big tough guy"? Here is a suggestion: Go F yourself.
July 3, 2012 at 2:44 pm |
Primal 4 Life
Same way you think you know genius.
July 3, 2012 at 2:44 pm |
sam stone
Primal: You really are an imbecile.
July 3, 2012 at 2:45 pm |
Primal 4 Life
You are the one who replied. You are the instigator. I simply finish the job you started peon.
NEXT!!!!
July 3, 2012 at 2:46 pm |
sam stone
You are nothing but a loudmouth.
July 3, 2012 at 2:47 pm |
sam stone
Actually, since it was your comment initially, you are the instigator. Go home and get your shinebox, boy
July 3, 2012 at 2:49 pm |
Primal 4 Life
LMAO whatever loser. You got nothing on me and never will.
July 3, 2012 at 2:50 pm |
sam stone
Primal: You are still talking like a mouthy little b!tch.
Tried a vegan diet for several months as a challenge and it was torture. You would have to be mentally ill, after ever having a normal diet, to be satisfied with that lifestyle. Going back to a normal diet was not at all difficult, nothing changed with my taste buds and I feel better overall mentally and physically. Vegans can claim whatever they want, but in my personal experience a regular diet is better for a happy, healthy life.
All the people who were strong enough to stick to the plant-based diet would tell you that there is a big positive difference in health, physical and mental. If you don’t give it a chance, how can you know how much better you can feel even if you think you feel great now? Of course it requires cooking, looking for the right foods, using the imagination to come up with different recipes and to do a lot of research. Telling others that it doesn’t work discourages them to try. Heart problems, diabetes, obesity, cancer and many other diseases come from eating animal protein. Only when a person gets really sick from these diseases, the doctor advises them to stay away from animal products.
If you have to be "strong enough" for it and several months isn't sufficient to reach a conclusion then it certainly doesn't sound like something worth doing. I certainly have no intention of torturing myself for years until I learn to like it. That's masochism and that is a mental illness.
I'm glad that you have found a diet that meets your physical needs and fits your lifestyle. I also have a diet that I am happy with. It consists of a healthy balance of meat products, fruits, vegetables and legumes. I ask that you respect my right to eat meat, as I have respected your right to oppose it.
I am a hunter and agree with your first 3 points. You are not correct, however, about the last two points. There are many individuals and organizations who support conservation without having purchased hunting/fishing equipment or licenses or killed an animal. Our national park system, to name just one non-extractive conservation success, is supported by tax payers and users, the majority of which are non-hunters. I appreciate you developed your appreciation of the outdoors through hunting. I did not however, despite being a hunter for over 40 years. My intense appreciation of the outdoors led to me adding hunting to my many ways to experience and revel in nature, not the other way around and for most of the people I know, that is the case as well. To suggest that you cannot have a full appreciation for the outdoors or vested interest in it unless you are a hunter is also a fallacy. Photographers and cinematographers, non-extractive hunters, have opened our eyes to the beauty and complexity of nature and helped garner support for conservation efforts without ever having killed had to kill a single animal and they do it because of their incredible appreciation for nature. A myriad of environmental organizations work every day to raise money, influence policy and provide critical input to protect and preserve habitats for the benefit of future generations, many at their own expense, without feeling the need to be extractive themselves. It perplexes me that again, someone needs to make a distinction between "us" and "them" when in fact, many of us share the same feelings about nature regardless of how we come about them, and for those that don't, well, they either haven't been fortunate enough to have the chance to do so or, they have other more compelling interests which of course deserve our respect.
Awesome article from a person who took to the time to look beyond their upbringing and see that of another person's. Sorry Mike, but for some people hunting, fishing and trapping is a way of life, or at least a big part of it. I have no problem with people who don't hunt, unless they preach at me not to. I have no interest in changing their point of view and can't understand why some of them are so bent on changing mine.
HAHAHAHA I love the word "ethical". Just because you disagree with something, Mike, doesn't make it ethical or unethical. Its just hunting. Its fine if you don't like it, no one cares if you do or don't.
You are correct. It has nothing to do with my opinions. It's unethical because it creates needless suffering for sentient beings.
July 3, 2012 at 2:20 pm |
Tried It, Didn't Care for It
Whether something is ethical is not based on suffering or sentience. It's based on what society deems to be acceptable. Since society, as a whole, deems hunting to be acceptable, it is not unethical to hunt. You can have your own personal code of ethics, but you seem to think society is required to live by it, which simply isn't the case no matter how much you may wish it to be.
July 3, 2012 at 2:29 pm |
Mike
So slavery was ethical in the 1860s? Concentration camps were ethical in Nazi Germany? What a ridiculous position.
July 3, 2012 at 2:34 pm |
Primal 4 Life
Poor Mike the mental midget. Immediately switching to straw man arguments when he gets put in his place. Too funny.
July 3, 2012 at 2:36 pm |
Mike
It's not a strawman argument at all. He argued that ethics are determined by the majority. I was pointing out how untenable that position is by examining history. I think you need to look up what a strawman is.
July 3, 2012 at 2:39 pm |
Primal 4 Life
100% straw man, period.
NEXT!!!!!
July 3, 2012 at 2:40 pm |
Mike
LOL ok. Did you actually care to address the merits of the point or no?
July 3, 2012 at 2:41 pm |
Primal 4 Life
You are not worth the time or effort.
July 3, 2012 at 2:42 pm |
ONTHunter
I'm not sure where you came up with this "undue suffering" argument, but again, its entirely factless and purely opinionated. I've shot many deer with my .308, furthest anything ran was 50 yards before it died. Maybe 10 second duration. Controlling animal populations helps reduce the starvation rate of a given species. It also reduces vehicle collisions with wild animals, both of which cause suffering for a longer period than 10 seconds.
July 3, 2012 at 2:44 pm |
ONTHunter
And to answer your question about slavery and containment camps being "ethical" or not...
It depends on where you are when you are asking the question. In the southern states during the 1800's, it was entirely ethical to have slaves, yet in the north, it was considered unethical. Same thing with containment camps in germany in the 30's/40's. If you asked a german back then if it was ethical, the answer would be yes. There are many different forms of ethics. There's personal ethics, job/professional ethics, community ethics, social ethics, national ethics, international ethics, cultural ethics...etc. Each one is differing in opinion. So to say something is "unethical" is probably correct, because pretty much anything can violate someone's ethics.
July 3, 2012 at 2:53 pm |
Environmentally-minded Hunter
"Sentient" is a relative judgement. I can see why you might find deer and ducks sentient, looking from the bottom up and all. As for me, I do not consider them to have reached that level of intelligence.
July 3, 2012 at 2:53 pm |
Tried It, Didn't Care for It
Mike, the world at large deemed those things unethical, even if Germany or the USA were proponents of them then. Ethics evolve with the whims of society or by virtue of systems we've put in place. Your idea of ethics is obviously different from those of the vast majority of humanity. That's not to say you're not entitled to your own interpretation of what is ethical or not, but when your ethics run contrary to societal ethics, you should have the intellectual honesty to differentiate.
Hunting with a gun or arrow isn't natural. If you can't take down an animal with your own hands, it isn't natural. Cooking your meat isn't natural either. If you can't kill the animal with your hands, just rip into it with your teeth without any other prep, it isn't natural.
Do you wear clothes? Yes – sorry, not "natural".
Do you cook any of your fruits or vegetables? Yes – sorry, not "natural".
Do you use 'flour' of any kind for any reason? Yes – sorry, not "natural".
Do you see a pattern here? How big a hypocrite can you possibly be?
Read it again, and see if you can really understand it this time.
July 3, 2012 at 1:54 pm |
PF
No, he's suggesting that hunting with tools is unnatural. Hunting itself is quite natural and is done in a wide variety of different ways by different type of animals. Some can chase and bring down their prey with brute force, others hunt in packs, some use venom, others need to ambush from hiding. We had the mental capacity to make tools. The fact that these tools have evolved over thousands of years doesn't make it any less natural.
As for cooking as unnatural? Using heat to prepare your food is as unnatural as using water to clean it before you eat it. It's a silly argument.
July 3, 2012 at 2:06 pm |
Really
@Mike...Are you saying cultivating fruits and vegetables is natural? Natural would mean eating only native plants and/or their fruit as they become edible. Not manipulated plants, cultivated plants, or non-native plants. You do all that and I will yield to your ethical superiority. You would be a gatherer. (Probably not a very healthy person, and prey for any predator you encounter while gathering). Oh, wait, you'd also have to make sure you pass the seeds through your body and deposit them in a place where they could germinate, sprout, and grow the following season.
I realize that vegans believe plants are not sentient because they do not have a nervous system. It's a convenient way to disconnect from the fact that plants do actually react with their environment, albeit much slower than vertebrates and some invertebrates. Watch a field of sunflowers follow the sun one day, follow the roots of a large tree from year to year as they endeavor to feed the trunk and leaves. Life is life. Dead is dead. To kill a deer is to make it dead. To kill a tomato is to make it dead. For all we know one day we will uncover science that shows plants know pain. I mean, at one time the world was flat and the sun revolved around us. Do you know what a stressed out tomato plant does? It sends forth extra blooms in an effort to get as many fruits grown so that more seeds will be available to sustain future plants.
We are part of the ecosystem. Whether we manipulate it's plants or animals doesn't change the fact that we have manipulated it. Now, I'm off to eat my lunch of cucumbers and cherries. The freezer is getting low so I have to conserve the meat from the deer and turkey I took last season, and besides cukes and cherries are in season right now.
July 3, 2012 at 2:32 pm |
Ballard
OK, MIke, let's replace hypocritical with a different word – stupid. Suggesting that hunting with tools is "unnatural" is about the most abjectly stupid comment on this thread. There is nothing "unnatural" about any animal using its brains to improve its chances of catching its quarry. Is it unnatural for Killer Whales to use their brains to work together to herd fish or seals into an ambush site? Is it unnatural for lions to employ similar methods to hunt herds of Impala? If you're going to advance anti-hunting arguments, at least have the good sense to drop the outrageously ridiculous ones.
July 3, 2012 at 2:56 pm |
PF
Better tell those chimps and bonobos to stop using sticks to collect termites. If they can't get those insects by just tonguing a termite mound then they're not getting their food naturally.
Sorry, there are plenty of animals that use tools to hunt their prey. From primates that use leaves and twigs to get ants and termites to arachnids that create webs to bears that use rocks to smash seafood.
While I am not a hunter, I am a biologist and I fully support the idea of hunting for food, not for sport. Hunter's are one of the most consistent groups to contribute to conservation measures in the U.S. and I applaud them for that. I am a vegetarian because I do not agree with commercial agricultures practices of raising or slaughtering animals. However, my dad is an active hunter and I am perfectly willing to eat anything that he may hunt. I know he uses as much of the animal as he can and I feel satisfied with his methods. I caution anyone from making such broad generalizations such as hunters are people who kill only for sport or that vegans are ignorant. This is a good article about someones point of view and reasons for choosing their lifestyle. We do not live in a society that could trade commercial agriculture for hunting and gathering, not only because lack of sustainability, but also lack of desire. The average American does not know where their food comes from, so for those hunters who hunt for food and become in tune with nature – great job! For the vegans who educate themselves and want to eat ethically, congratulations. I don't agree with hunting for sport or canned hunts, but I also oppose vegans who live off of junk food, or say that they never kill anything – I'm an organic farmer and as much as I wish it were not the case, I kill bugs (just yesterday I killed potato beetles), and the occasional rodent, mostly by accident with the tractor. I applaud anyone who educates themselves and stands up for what they believe.
Genesis 1:26 – And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Can't wait to see someone take that out of context. Those of you who don't believe in God will write this off, that's fine, believe what you want. But we are meant to live on plants AND animals. The circle of life. Stop judging people and assuming your way is the right one, if you want to live on plants more power to you.
PF, before using ethical or unethical in your post, you should at least understand the definition. What is your definition of ethical?
July 3, 2012 at 4:43 pm |
Enough Already
Not a bible thumper Mike, in fact I can't stand those people, they like you, try to shove their views on everyone. I just wanted to confirm a suspicion that you aren't Christian either. You have way more problems than worrying about hunting. Thanks :)
What a silly discussion: the ethics of eating meat. A lion doesn't sit around wondering if it is ethical to kill a zebra; neither does a raccoon wonder if it should kill a crayfish today or just forage for wild strawberries. People can eat meat, in moderation it is no worse for us than anything else, and there are a number of positive benefits of meat eating. Nothing else in nature questions whether the food that sustains it, is the "ethical" choice. We eat to live, everything eats to live, and sometimes things die so that other things may eat them and live.
July 3, 2012 at 1:47 pm |
Really?
Does dominion mean eating them? How animals are raised for food now is different from how it was thousands of years ago. Nothing in the way commercial farms are being ran can be considered ethical or humane. Try visiting one of them and see for yourself.
Just for the record, I killed an 8 point buck with a fiberglass arrow tipped with a Montec G5 broadhead at 33 yards out of my Martin Cheetah compound bow last fall. I spent a good 15-20 minutes preparing for a perfect chest shot. After releasing my arrow and seeing the buck take off, I went back to the house, had a cup of coffee, and waited an hour. When I went back to the spot where I saw him last, there was blood on the ground and he was lying 15 yards away. Dead. The arrow was a complete pass-through. I immediately gutted him and put him on my 4 wheeler to take home. I let him bleed out and that evening I took him to my professional butcher who processed him and returned the meat 3 days later. Cut and wrapped. I had a years worth of meat and an experience that those who call hunting "barbaric" will never understand or relate to. I pity people who do not have the ability or stones to provide for themselves beyond eating grass and leaves.
Yours is the condescending pity of the self-righteous looking down on those he considers beneath him. Yours is the pity of the white man looking down on the tribes of the plains and their "barbaric" ways, right before he destroyed them in his ignorance. That's the folly of man I guess, we blame those for precisely the wrongs we are most guilty of ourselves. You claim hunters are ignorant. Find a mirror.
Every single one of your replies on this topic sends the message that you and your 'opinions' are "right" and that everybody who doesn't think like you do, or believe what you believe, is "wrong" – and inferior, as well. That stance is arrogant, pompous, self-aggrandizing, and . . . just plain ignorant. There's your explanation.
July 3, 2012 at 1:53 pm |
Ryan
In response to Mike's, "Please explain how I am ignorant".
Your personal ethics are just that Mike, yours, they are not universal however hard you might wish they were. When people, however well-meaning, believe they know how another person should live better than that person, bad things often happen. You are ignorant because you only allow yourself to see the virtues in yourself and the failings of others, at least using your posts here as a measure. I have nothing against vegans. I have a great deal against narrow-minded, absolutist, extremists.
July 3, 2012 at 1:53 pm |
Mike
So in other words, neither one of you know what the word "ignorant" means.
July 3, 2012 at 2:03 pm |
What?
@ Mike
I know perfectly well what it means. I also know that if you are "lacking in knowledge" to the point that you don't know that your opinions and beliefs aren't the only 'right' ones, then you, sir, are "ignorant".
July 3, 2012 at 2:13 pm |
blacklabelbrad
@Mike
You are ignorant because you look down on others for killing animals for meat, yet you don't seem to understand that even as a vegan you are responsible for the deaths of many animals. Do you have any idea what modern agricultural practices do to animals? As a grain and oilseed farmer I've seen many, many animals killed during harvest alone. Unless you consume only organic homegrown fruit and vegetables you too have blood on your hands. People who live in glass houses should not throw stones...
July 3, 2012 at 2:17 pm |
Ryan
"Mike
So in other words, neither one of you know what the word "ignorant" means."
Well, I was going to go into greater detail about how you are ignorant but you kinda beat me to the punch with that last comment. I mean, dang Mike, that's a pretty ignorant thing to say!
July 3, 2012 at 2:26 pm |
Primal 4 Life
LMAO nobody needs, or wants, pity from a loser like you.
We can try and justify our "pure" way of life all we want wildone. I for actually take solice in the fact that not everyone believes in what we do or how we live. That way if and when the day comes that we have to actually survive say a collapse in society we will survive. Happy Hunting
In response to eating leaves and grass, I'll assure you I do none of that. It can be reasoned that the invention of agriculture, of mass producing grains and vegetables, actually led to the greatest growth in human population ever. Period. This is ultimately what transitioned us from hunter-gatherers to how we are today. Without the incessant need to forage and hunt for food, we could focus on improving other facets of life. If you'd like to revert back to solely hunting, be my guest. But do not question the intelligence or thriftiness of those that brought you modernism :P I think we did just fine for ourselves.
wildone: i am a vegetarian. i know many hunters and i got no problem with them at all. i know i cannot understand your adrenaline rush from the perfectly placed shot, but i imagine it would be similar to what i get when i do my sports (skydiving and trail running).
as far as not having the "not having the ability or the stones to provide for themselves beyond eating grass and leaves, well, that's just dumb
Why do you need all of the fancy equipment? "a fiberglass arrow tipped with a Montec G5 broadhead: and a "Martin Cheetah compound bow:. I use a Atlatl. It's a spear that is slung at the deer, sort of a "sling spear". Effective. Made 100% by me, from all natural materials. ala, native American. It has taken several deer. I didn't leisurely go in and drink coffee etc after hitting the buck. I immediately track, and dispatch the animal if needed. I do not sip coffee allowing the animal to suffer along until I deem its time to finish it, or it bleeds out. If you hunt for food as I do, you practice, you minimize suffering as much as possible. I never take mine to the packer to do the dirty work. I dress it myself, and package it myself. Nothing is wasted this way. Invest a little effort please.
I'm a vegetarian, and even I have to commend you on this. If you have to eat meat, at least give the animal the utmost respect you can. You are taking the most important and precious thing from them- and placing your life above theirs- and if you're willing to take that which is not owed to you, at least have the humility to do it the right way.
I respect your technique and dedication man, but everyone does this thang a little differently. Many hunters don't chase their prey immediately because it's the chase, not the initial wound, that releases adrenaline into the blood and makes the meat gamey, not to mention causing greater stress to the animal. Many hunters believe that a wounded deer will eventually lay down rather than run, making the tracking easier. Shoot, if the animal does not go down immediately, track 2-4 hours later, if there will be enough light and predators are not a concern. Just a thought, I actually track immediately too. Good hunting!
Immediately tracking an animal is reckless. When a deer is shot they take off running for the woods, where they search for cover. The will usually pick the nearest ditch, creek, bush or tree. If you immediately start tracking the animal, you risk pushing them further and further into the bush. This stresses out the animal, and causes it to release excess hormones which can and will spoil the meat. So, by letting the animal crawl under a tree and die peacefully, you increase your chances of recovering the animal, you save the meat, and you don't cause the animal undue stress.
Some people can't use spears for legal or physical reasons. Good on you for using one though, much respect!
The ignorance or the "vegan" and the animal rights dupes is simply amazing...wildlife exists because of the conservation efforts of hunters,fishermen and trappers....I do all three and for the 4th my family will be eating venison and Elk steaks and burgers....you vegans can go chew on a piece of tofu...
I love hunting accidents– There are more people who prefer their wild life alive then dead, stuffed and hanging on the wall– iF HUNTING IS SO ETHICAL PUT YOUR MOTHER IN THE PASTURE AND I WILL TRY TO MAKE IT A CLEAN SHOT. Then we will feed on her for a year and feel like a true conservationist because we killed our own. Ha ha see how ridiculous that argument sounds. Hunting sucks, so does factory farming nothing is ethical about killing period.. You want to be ethical stop killing animals period and go Vegan. if not than you are just blowing wind out your crusty carcass caked tail pipe.
The vegans always claim that their way is the only ethical way...yet animals are exploited for what vegans eat as well. What do you think fertilizer is?? So by buying vegetables, you are funding the ownership, captivity, and commercialization of animals in order for you to feel better about yourself. What about the millions and millions of acres of forest that have been destroyed to allow the pumping of oil? That same oil is used to create the little plastic containers your spinach and tofu comes in.
I have nothing against the vegan diet, if it works for you, then good on ya. But don't spout some pointless drivel about how your diet is somehow impacting the earth less, and how your diet doesn't harm animals. Everything we do on this planet has an effect on animals. Just our existence is the greatest effect of all. Population control on wild animals is our way of preventing death by starvation, malnutrition, and predation. The forest is only so big...it can only sustain a certain number of deer for so long.
you do realize that due to human interference in the enviroment simply not hunting would lead to wild overpopulation in some animal species right? natures solution to overpopulation is mass disease and starvation. hunting keeps animal populations at safe levels as determermined by professionals, sounds much more friendly to me.
Most of the negative comments come from people who think of themselves as conservationists, but have actually very lit knowledge about wildlife, conservation, and reality in the outdoors.
I manage and conserve wildlife on several million acres in Africa, have spent obscene amounts of my own money in the silly venture, and inordinate amounts of time in the bush in close contact with wildlife and its nemesis – local rural communities.
And I hunt.
I've never encountered one single "greenie" out there DOING something useful where it counts, or achieving any meaningful result in conservation.
But I have met scores of hunters who spend money, time, and efforts towards reintroducing species and conserving existing ones. Actually, like it or not, without the hunting industry and hunters, there would be very little wildlife left in Africa – and in many other places.
Facts are that hunters spend more money to directly support wildlife than any other group. The article does not mean that we'd keep eating as much meat, just that hunted meat, if you will, is environmenatlly more friendly than meat from large scale animal-culture farms. In Michigan my family has eaten as many as five deer in one year, which was too much. We can incorporate 1-2 easily into our diet, and buy less beef, pork and poultry.
I don't understand all the backlash from being a vegetarian. Since when should it be a bad thing that we do not wish to kill animals, and would like less of that to occur? It's a healthier lifestyle and a more ethical approach to getting food on your table. When you try to disparage those that try to promote a more conscientious and compassionate way of viewing the world, you only reflect on yourself...
The backlash comes from vegetarians and vegans pretty much telling people that they're jerks for eating meat. Killing an animal for food is neither ethical nor unethical. Causing pain for the sake of causing pain is a different story, but that's not what we're talking about. Eating meat has nothing to do with ethics or morals, it's just a fact of life. If you chose not to eat meat, that's fine. Just don't try to judge people who do.
It's two-sided really. I can tell you as a vegetarian I receive much more flack from society than meat-eaters do. We have to explain and defend ourselves much more. I can understand you hating PETA-lovers who call you vindictive, sadistic...etc...but I'm simply talking about those who scoff or laugh at vegetarians for no reason. I see no harm in my lifestyle, and I see no harm in promoting it so long as I don't call into question your character. When it comes down to it, I only ask myself and others that if we can live well off a plant-based diet, why would we choose to kill those that can feel pain as we do?
He asked where the backlash comes from. Perhaps I could have worded it differently, but I feel like it's pretty obvious that not all vegetarians/vegans feel the same way. Unfortunately, the majority of the ones who post comments on articles like this tend to be the ones that have a problem with anyone killing animals for food and are vocal about it. If you're a "live and let live" type of person then that's great, but in here you're probably in the minority.
I don't think that the "live and let live" are in the minority in real life, or on these forums. On the other hand, I have been doing this for most of my long life, and I am not all fanatic about it as some new veggies
I have no problem with it either, until their holier than thou attitudes are shown. I won't tolerate that for any amount of time.
Be a vegan and keep your ignorant pie hole shut about it. Those of us who know better want nothing to do with that lifestyle, just as you want nothing to do with ours. I won't make you join me, YOU WILL NOT MAKE ME JOIN YOU!
And I have no problem with meat eaters, as I am dating one for 3 years. I do have a problem with your tone and judgments, though. You are exactly the type of person I was referencing when I asked why people have such an adverse reaction to the *thought* of vegetarianism or humble vegetarians themselves. When you say you and other people know better than to partake in my lifestyle, and to shut my pie-hole, you're presuming that your lifestyle is better than mine- something you call out the vegetarians for when they try to reason about the health benefits. Hypocrisy has never, and will never be, a desireable trait. Do everyone a favor and quiet down. You've shown you're incapable of carrying out a decent and adult conversation.
No one has even attempted to answer my other question, though. If one has the option of limiting suffering, pain, and death to harmless animals, why would they not choose this?
July 5, 2012 at 9:46 am |
wildone
I wonder how some of the people here would have upheld their anti-meat beliefs if they had been members of the Donner Party, or survivors of a plane crash in the Andes Mountains. They would probably be the first to say "Let's eat Billy".
This author has absolutely no concept of scale. Americans right now eat about 250 pounds of meat every year. Let's just say that everyone hunts for their meat and that everyone hunts deer. If the average whitetail yields 40-45 pounds of meat, Americans would have to kill 1.875 billion deer to fuel their meat consumption. There an estimated 20 million deer living in the US right now. There is simply no way that hunting could even come remotely close to providing meat at current consumption levels. Even if it could, can you imagine the destruction on forests if everyone went out and hunted their own food. What a ridiculous article. If you want to solution to ethical eating, stop eating meat.
Agreed. I have much respect for non-sport hunters and don't begrudge them at all. But to suggest or even ponder we all take up that stance is ridiculous. Reducing our meat consumption and thereby reducing our need for commercial farms is the only answer.
Where does the author say that everyone needs to go out and hunt their own meat? It's a lifestyle choice and she is pointing out how it is a logical and acceptable one. I see nowhere that she criticizes anyone who chooses to buy their meat or avoid meat altogether. She is simply revealing her story of a lifestyle she discovered and felt it was important enough to share. I applaud her and agree with her whole-heartedly, as I live the same lifestyle. If you don't, that is fine too.
In her opinion it is. In your opinion it's not. The difference is she doesn't outright criticize you as you do her. That and, again, she does not suggest everyone go out and do it. She is not offering up a solution, just an alternative.
July 3, 2012 at 1:38 pm |
Mike
But it's not a viable alternative based on current demand. That's my point.
July 3, 2012 at 2:04 pm |
ONTHunter
You get a heck of a lot more than 45lbs of meat from a deer. I shot a doe last year that weighed 140lbs, 90lbs of meat went in the freezer.
You comment is solely based on if people only hunted deer, however there are many other wild animals that can be consumed. I hunt ducks as well, and probably eat 10-15 a year. I also hunt rabbits, again about 10-15 a year. There's also bears, grouse, squirrels, moose, elk, antelope, mule deer, sheep, plus FISHING!
I know several people who only eat wild meat, and with only taking 1 deer, 1 bear, and 1 moose annually, they are able to have surplus meat and are able to donate to local food banks.
Not sure what does you have seen, but up here in Ontario, a 140lb doe is about average. Bucks approaching 300lbs are common, average being in the 225-250lb range.
Thats a heck of a lot more than 45lbs that you used for your "math".
July 3, 2012 at 2:29 pm |
Reality
You're taking your limited knowledge and applying it to all deer. That one deer that you saw behind Starbucks isn't the only one (or type – gasp) of deer in the country or world.
July 3, 2012 at 4:36 pm |
BD
Hyperbole, theres nothing quite like it.
Its somewhat absurd to think the author is suggesting that deer, elk, etc be the only source of meat in America and that it be obtained via hunting. The author IS indicating however that its a viable alternative and that an approach like that to other animals and our food supply in general is a positive step enviromentally. The same logic might also be applied to raising domesticated animals as an example, if you raise cattle yourself you know how they were fed and treated.
The issue of eating meating is neither moral or ethical, its something intended by biology and evolution (please don't bust out the invisible benevolent man in the sky), if you don't like it have your eye teeth pulled.
Most predatory animals (which can for the sake of my point be simply defined as those with teeth inteded for eating meat) treat their prety far worse than humans do. Try watching a shark attack a seal, yes its gruesome and the animal suffers greatly, but I don't think the stuanchest enviromentalist can seriously suggest that its somehow immoral or unethical. Any difference is entirely due to the human brains ability to anthropomorphize.
No, the difference is that humans have no dietary need to be predators and humans are uniquely capable of recognizing suffering and adopting a moral code. If you want to live by the law of the jungle, then fine, let me steal from you, commit violent acts towards you, rape your family members, etc. The fact is, humans demand something more. We aren't sharks.
@Mike, you say that humans have no dietary need to be predators? Then why do you vegans need to supplement their diets. Even on the Vegetarian Voice website it lists 5 nutrients that the vegan diet lacks. 1. Protein 2. Iron 3. Zinc 4. Calcium 5. B-12. Follow the link and learn: http://www.vegetarianvoice.com/vegetarian-nutrition/7/five-nutrients-vegetarian-diets-lack/
July 3, 2012 at 4:09 pm |
PF
Humans do have a dietary need for the nutrients found in meat. Just because we have developed ways to get those nutrients through supplementation doesn't make the original (natural) way the "law of the jungle". We're talking about basic nutritional needs here, so throwing theft, rape, etc. into the mix is going off topic.
Additionally, you've already pretty much said that it isn't the suffering of the animal that bothers you (since you wouldn't stop a lion from eating an antelope), it's just the fact that you don't like it when humans do it.
July 3, 2012 at 4:11 pm |
Tom
PF, It is entirely possible to obtain the same nutrients from plant based sources so there is no natural need to kill another animal. There are some animals that have evolved to be prey animals, but humans have not evolved to be prey animals. Consuming meat is a preference not a need.
July 3, 2012 at 4:53 pm |
AJ
Tom, no it's not. The biggie that comes to mind is B-12, which comes from animal products only!
July 3, 2012 at 7:19 pm |
ONTHunter
@Mike....Feel free to try and steal from me, or harm my family. You will be met with the most primal instinct of all...The fight reaction, and guaranteed I am better armed than you :).
July 4, 2012 at 8:01 am |
Rob
While it may be true that hunters contribute, through licensing fees, etc. to conservation, and that hunting one's food may be ethical, a concept such as "hunting" is too broad to lable as ethical. For instance, a typical hunting rifle, such as a .30/06 fires a typical 180-grain bullet with a velocity of about 2,700 feet per second, generating 2,700 foot-pounds of energy.
So, a bullet fired from the above rifle at an animal 100 yards away from the shooter will reach the animal in .1 seconds. However, the sound of the shot will take .29 seconds to reach the animal. How exactly is this type of "hunting" "ethical"? Moreover, current scopes can read the date on a nickel at that distance, and these hunters typically use 4-wheelers and other mechanical means of assistance to reach their preferred hunting grounds, as well as to bring their kill back to be cleaned and dressed. Furthermore, hunters typically bait their fields with all sorts of sweets designed to lure the animal into their sights. Again, how is this ethical?
As well, I wonder if Ms. McCalou makes as much use of the animal as she claims. Does she eat the tongue? the liver? the thymus gland (sweetbreads)? the pancreas? Does she use the hides for clothing and shelter? Does she use the sinew for ropes and other tethering uses? Does she use the hooves? Is she familiar with all the ways that primitive cultures, as well as some current cultures, use their kill in its entirety? Does she view the animal as her spiritual ancestor, and say prayers and chant incantations for the animal that offered itself in sacrifice so that she can have such enlightened views?
National Geographic aired a program years ago called "The Art of the Hunt" in which it followed a small band of African bushpeople as they literally chased their prey, running as much as 20 miles a day for several days, in hopes of running the animal into exhaustion so that they could get close enough to kill it by hurling rudimentary spears and arrows into its flesh. Once this was accomplished, the hunters had a small celebration, quickly field dressed the animal, and then traveled back to their homes to feed their families. Mind you, these hunters are carrying fresh kill for several days, undoubtedly being tracked themselves by predatory animals. Once home, a few days rest, and then back to it. That's ethical hunting!! As well, I'm reminded of the scene in the movie "First Blood" where Rambo drops out the tree to spear the wild boar, a most ferocious animal. That's ethical hunting!!
If you want to get all-technical on us, what would you call trout fishing with a rod and reel filled with 15# test line and Mepps spinning lures? I would call that "catching dinner".
The tools used in a hunt have nothing to do with whether its ethical or not. Some people want to ensure that they dispatch the animal quickly and efficiently. Therefore, they use high powered rifles with scopes. It allows them to take the best shot in the given situation. I would think that a conscious regard for the suffering of an animal would be considered "ethical" wouldn't it? Or should I take out grandpa's old 30-30 lever gun and just send 10 bullets down range and hope for the best?
Bahaha. You know nothing about ballistics or hunting. No most hunters do not use 30-06, and no they dont shoot 180 grain bullets out of them and no they are not traveling at 2700 fps.
Try this. I shoot a 300 win mag, 165 grain Nosler Ballistic tips traveling at 3200 fps. They are cranking. I hit deer right behind the shoulder and they drop immediately.
I do not use an ATV to hunt. I walk, ALWAYS. I pack out the meat on my back to the road where my rig is parked on a legal roadway.
I feed my family with this meat all year. I butcher and wrap all of my meat. I dont go for antlers, never have. I go for the healthy, lean, un messed with meat it provides.
We as humans are omnivores. You can choose to go against nature, be my guest.. but dont you for one second act like you know me or what I do to prepare for successful one shot clean harvests on the deer and elk i hunt.
I go to great lengths to do it old school, work hard, hike, shoot alot, and treat the animals with respect for giving my family food.
I was raised to be respectful and honest. Work hard and do whats right. Some of you need your butts spanked and put on a farm where your precious wheat and grain products you love so much is raised and harvested. Might change your perspective.
Are you so sure that Rambo was an "ethical" hunter? If I remember the movie First Blood correctly, he only cut off and used one hind quarter (haunch); that would mean he left the rest of the pig's carcass lying around and going to waste.
There is nothing ethical about taking the life of another, so don't bother padding yourselves on the back. The author is completely off base and probably is paid by the NRA and the hunting and fishing industries. Follow the money. You'll see.
I do agree that it's better to hunt and fish for your food than eat food that comes from factory farms and fisheries, that's if you only eat food that has been hunted or fished. If you still shop at grocery stores, than you're defeating the purpose.
However, hunting (and fishing) are not a sport. I wish people would stop calling it that. Calling it a sport, harvesting, culling, and other such terms are used to sugarcoat what's really going on. Just call it what it is, killing defenseless animals.
It's also not conservation. True conservation is when you protect an area so that nature can thrive without human interference, encroachment, or use. The only reason why hunters and fisherman protect these areas is so they can have an area to kill and destroy the nature they are protecting. I guess putting up a fence, with a "Do not Trespass" sign, around an area that's about to get a mall is conservation too.
Then there is the topic of Wildlife Management. Wildlife doesn't need management. Nature knows what it's doing. It's humans that need management. We need to learn to live in harmony with the world instead trying to take it over. We don't own it, it owns us.
I also question the mentality of those who love to kill defenseless animals, and even hang the head of an animal on their wall.
Now, I've known some hunters and fisherman to "genuinely care" about the animals they're killing who are against keeping trophies. They are also against hunting animals released in small areas, fish thrown in a pond, and killing in a inhumane way where instantaneous death is preferred. Their only reason is to eat and provide food for nature afterwards–Native style.
However, those who take joy in taking the life of another should have their heads examined. Many have the same mentality as serial killers, although in a way, they are serial killers, but instead of human, they kill non-human. There must be a study somewhere. If not, there should be.
I feel the same way about those in the military. If they come back with PTSD, they're normal.
In the end, there is no need to take life when it's healthier, more environmentally friendly, and more humane to be a Vegetarian or more importantly a Vegan.
What's the point in human existence if we don't aspire to evolve in life and create a more peaceful world for all. Certainly nature would be much better without us. Human activity is destroying the world. Don't think for a second that the world will tire of us and find a way to take us out. It's already started.
Remember we are problem, but we can also be the solution.
Your comment is so long winded and off base that it is difficult to even respond to. Just about everything you said is wrong, wrong, wrong, and you offer no facts to back up your anti-hunting opinion. All I can say is that you need to stop with the generalities that support your anti-hunting agenda and look at it from a "hunter/conservationist" perspective based on facts and not rhetoric.
Your diatribe makes it quite evident that you are the problem and should consider taking the steps to rid yourself of it in the best interest of humanity.
Animals and insects are not people nor equal to people. Squirrels and rabbits are tasty. Anyone who thinks that dogs, cats, and deer possess the same rights as humans are un-compassionate and deluded. I weep for society and laugh at the irony. I am looking forward to the 4th of July where I will celebrate that we can all state our opinions while I grill a hamburger, a pork chop, and drink a beer.
Whens the last time you brushed your teeth? Please notice that through evolution or if you believe in God, which i doubt, you were givin 32 omniverous teeth. Pure and simple.
Ease, ignore the trolls. It's fine if people want to disagree, but some of these posters are so angry and insulting. Especially the ones advocating hunting; isn't that interesting? Your post was thoughtful and had a lot of good information in it.
You're right. Due to the fact that I hunt and provide "healthy" food for my friends and family i am a blood-thirsty barbarian. I am devoid of any form of compassion or remorse. I am short tempered and angry at the world.
All that I have to say is that I grew up my whole life hunting to feed our family! I have never said anything bad about anyone who is vegetarian or vegan the way I view it is that's your opinion and do what you like don't preach it on others. I found it very offensive when you said that people who hunt should have there head examined!! I am not going to get into all the bs about hunting and vegetarians but I just think that you don't really have to go on calling other people down because they don't agree with you!
The article has a lot of very good points but as for the commenters wtf!! To go as far as bringing serial killers and people at war into this isn't that a little much?? People that are proud to call them selves hunters are the farthest thing from serial killers! You should really do more research before blasting other people for what they do!!
I realize I can’t change people. They have to change themselves, but my point about hunters (and fisherman) being like serial killers relates to a state of mind that sees the victim as a thing with no feelings.
If you read my point carefully, I was talking about those who enjoy killing, those who take trophies, etc. One must become apathetic in order to enjoy such a thing.
I don’t know. I’m sorry I don’t understand that, but that’s me, and many others like me who are sensitive to all living beings.
I believe, for me, to understand others, it’s important to understand why certain people do what they do.
It would take more space than possible here to delve into the "deep" sensitivity levels you seem to hold passionately. You can do some research and verify this. This planet will reach unsustainable "human" population levels in just 100 years based on the rate of current growth.
I'm sure you have heard about Obamacare leaving out a provision for seniors. Do you think that was by accident? No. It was by design to help curb this rate of growth by allowing senior citizens to "pass on" sooner than later. So how does this behavior make you feel about the human condition that you portray? "All things living." We're already killing old people off!, Yeah, not with a shotgun and we're not making trophies of them and we don't like the taste of human meat. We bury them and place an epitaph on their place of rest.
So when you compare people to animals, you must consider the rules of natural selection and how that affects the survival of the human race. If you don't like meat. Fine. If you don't hunt. Fine. But to demean others because of your personal choices is misguided, at best.
July 3, 2012 at 8:29 pm |
PF
There is nothing unethical about killing an animal for food.
If my post is too long and too hard to understand I apologize. Maybe I should’ve put it all in bullet points. I should be writing a blog instead.
My point was although a hunter and fisherman kill their own food is better than getting food from factory farms and fisheries, there is nothing ethical about killing another sentient being. It’s not a sport nor is it conservation. It’s killing a defenseless animal, nothing more, nothing less.
Maybe it’s a way to get out ones violent tendencies. I don’t know. I’m still trying to figure it out why one would kill another. There is a definite lack of empathy toward others whether it be a human or non-human. It’s all about difference though.
Just remember, those you treat badly, have feelings and emotions just like you. Before doing something to another, imagine it happening to you first. Go through the experience yourself. There is a sentient being with family members on the other side of that gun or hook.
I’m not stopping you from what you’re doing. I’m just asking you to think about it. That’s all.
I have empathy for others which is why I’m involved in not only animal rights, but also human rights, and the environment. We’re all connected my friends, we’re all connected.
What bothers me most here is not the article, but the inability of the commenters to have any kind of intelligent and civil discussion. It's all attack, attack and "I'm right and you're wrong." Here's what I think. The author is right in a lot of ways–if you're going to eat meat, hunting is the most ethical way of doing so for the reasons she listed above. It's a good argument, and one that I, as a vegetarian, agree with. I don't eat meat for my own reasons and a big part of that is the way commercially raised animals are treated. I'm not vegan, I raise my own hens and ducks for eggs and they are well-cared for and loved as pets, I try to go easy on milk and cheese or buy it from local farms. We all do what we're willing to do to improve the planet. But for those of you blasting vegetarians and vegans, grow up. Humans eat meat because as we evolved, we had to eat what we could, plus we were constantly moving as well as weathering the cold and other temperature shifts, plus the human life span was pathetic. But, as we evolve socially, we need less meat. Eating too much of it causes obesity., contributes to diabetes and heart disease and uses too much of the world's resources to produce too little food. Go do the research–it takes enough resources to feed four to five humans to produce enough beef to feed one. That makes NO sense at all as our population continues to expand at an alarming rate. Now, what each individual chooses to do about it is his/her decision. I'd hope that we'd cut back on our meat consumption, maybe consider eating more ethically-produced meat and I really hope we all stop slamming on one another for being different. People, we're not in fifth grade here.
We also have tonsils and an appendix. I'm married but daydream about handsome strangers, and I'd really love wash down some Vicodin with a glass of bourbon right now. Do we have to act on every impulse that comes our way, or is there a better way of doing things? We have brains, let's use them. Unlike your tonsils, appendix, or canine teeth, our minds can serve a valuable purpose. Veganism is the only truly ethical dietary choice out there, and as an added bonus you'll be healthier than ever before and drastically reduce your negative environmental impact. Makes sense to me.
Haven’t you heard that PETA was blaming global warming on Canadian Moose farts? True story, look it up.
July 3, 2012 at 12:39 pm |
Amy
I'm certainly not a member of PETA. What does that have to do with anything?
July 3, 2012 at 12:49 pm |
Tim
Not to me. Your tonsils and appendix are vestigeal organs, your canines aren't. They are still used for something. You can't get all the nutrients your body needs just from vegetables. I will grant you that you can't from meat either. the two go together. Humans are predatory animals by nature. Are there unethical hunters? Yes. Are there a vastly larger number of ethical hunters? Yes as well. I love to hunt and I use the meat and hide. Some say it's not fair. I am in their environment. Animals can typically hear and smell a heck of a lot better than humans. My sucess/hunt ratio is not 1:1. But I don't mind if I come back empty. I enjoy being out in nature.
July 3, 2012 at 1:10 pm |
Amy
Tim, I respect your opinion and your love of nature. I too love nature, although I prefer to leave a light footprint. I might take a rock home with me once in a while, but never a life. I just wanted to add that the idea that you can't get all your nutrients from a vegan diet is false. B-12 is the only nutrient a vegan diet is missing, and from what I've read it might have something to do with our obsession with sanitizing every vegetable before we eat it. Which, of course, is a good idea when you grow your veggies in sh*t. But I digress :-) The problem is easily solved with a supplement. The B-12 it contains is produced by bacteria. So if the nutritional 'debate' is the only thing standing in your way on your path to health and true communion with nature, problem solved.
July 3, 2012 at 4:10 pm |
Tom, Tom, The Piper's Son
>I'm married but daydream about handsome strangers, and I'd really love wash down some Vicodin with a glass of bourbon right now.<
You can shove your hoiler than thou patheticness right up your you know what. Your ethics are not anyone's but yours. You will not foist your nonsense on me.
From now on I dedicate every kill to you and all other losers like you.
The human body requires certain nutrients that are found in meat. This is why vegans need to supplement their diet with pills or they will become seriously ill. The killing of animals isn't barbaric, it is a necessity for human life. I guess the Health Department has it all wrong when they recommend 2-3 servings of meat products a day....some uneducated granola muncher on a public forum is right.
From the American Dietetic Association: "It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes."
Hunters do a TON for conservation. The most I see environmentalists do is complain about what everyone else is doing, but hunters go out and GET IT DONE. Some examples of things I did in my youth, volunteering with organizations such as the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, Ducks Unlimited, National Wild Turkey Federation, and Oregon Hunters Association –
-Plant aspen saplings for miles along riverbanks
-Build barbed wire enclosures around mature aspen stands
(aspen bark is a food source for deer and elk in the winter when they can't get to grass, cows tend to eat it, and then there's none for the cervids in the hard winter months.)
-Pick up trash in the wilderness
-Raise THOUSANDS of dollars through fund raisers and banquets, that hunters from counties around travel to, in order to raise money to preserve wetlands and wilderness.
-rescue orphaned critters from road kills, and raise them to be able to be released back into the wild.
-reporting, collecting, and destroying invasive plant species
Those were just a few things. What do other 'environmentalists' do? Hold a sign (which they'll throw in the trash) and complain.
There's a good reason I can't take those types seriously.
Not really, but you did hit on a key word – 'meaningful'. You can be a meaningful conservationist without being a hunter, but most of them aren't, because they really aren't all as vested in the wilderness as they think they are. Hunters have something at stake, so tend to work harder at making it all work.
For example, take the Peregrine falcon, and falconers. The Audubon hates falconers, because they're a bunch of bird watchers, and falconers take birds from the wild and use them to hunt other birds. So they assume falconry = bad. Then you have the Peregrines going almost extinct, and falconers bringing them back from that brink by breeding them, taking young from the wild and teaching them to hunt before releasing them (falcons are never pets, always a wild animal, and usually go back to the wild after the season- birds in the wild don't have a very high chance of making it to adulthood even when the population is healthy). So hunters may have completely saved the species, and all the Audubon Society wanted to do was take donations and complain about falconers.
It's different when you have something you love on the line, versus something you are in love with the idea of being in love with.
We shouldn't kill and eat animals in the first place and then we wouldn't need hunters to do all these things. Switching to a plant-based diet would free up most of our tillable land; will protect the forests from cutting; we would preserve 70% of our fresh water (that is how much we use for meat and dairy production); we would not use so much pesticides and chemicals; we will protect our rivers, lakes and oceans... read some of the reports that started revealing the damages done to our planet by eating an animal based diet. Hopefully the doctors will also accept and look into the plant-based diet. All it takes is for the governmental departments to start a research and compare vegans verses meat-eaters. They will be surprised by how much healthier we vegans are….
You seem to think that a plant based diet means animals won't still die.
They do. All the time. Animals die every day for you food. Is the life of a deer more valuable than that of the mouse or rabbit that was caught up in the combine that harvested your vegetables? What about those animals that live on that land you want to till, they still need to eat as well.
There's a saying I really like, "If 'ifs' and 'buts' were candies and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas". Meaning, you can say 'if people would blah blah blah' all you want, but you're not helping anything at all, and your ideals really aren't even as ideal as you think they are.
OK so we go to plant-based diet. Farming increases substantially causing more use of pest/herbicides, increased erosion etc. Now since hunting has become unpopular for management of numbers populations explode and in return we have wholesale killing of those wild animals to "protect" the crops. Furthermore your statement on saving the forests is ludicrous. The litigation of timber sales across the country for the last 50 years has created extremely unhealthy habitats. Damaging all types of flora/fuana. Hence the catastrophic fires occurring in the mtn states right now.
July 3, 2012 at 1:34 pm |
Primal 4 Life
You are 100% wrong and this is backed by proven science. Please just shut up.
HUNTING IS NOT A SPORT. "Sport is when individuals or teams compete against each other under equal circumstances to determine who is better at a given game or endeavor. Hunting will be a sport when deer, elk, bears, and ducks are given 12-gauge shotguns."
You hunters did. Why do you call yourselves "sportsmen"? You don't really think dressing up in camo and shooting wild animals dead from a safe distance away with your high powered rifle is considered a sport now do ya? It it was a sport, it would be considered a sport for cowards who love killing wildlife.
Spare us of your own definitions of a word. Sport (or, in the United States, sports) is all forms of competitive physical activity which,[1] through casual or organised participation, aim to use, maintain or improve physical fitness and provide entertainment to participants.[2] Hundreds of sports exist, from those requiring only two participants, through to those with hundreds of simultaneous participants, either in teams or competing as individuals.
I pretty much agree with her views but would point out that one is probably more likely to get trichinosis from bear meat than from pork and there is also tularemia from rabbits. I would add fish to the menu – I have a little less compassion for them.
Antibiotic use in agriculture is a major factor in the development of resistance. Bacteria trade resistance genes like kids used to trade baseball cards. It takes a prescription to get an antibiotic like cipro at the local pharmacy but only a 20 dollar bill to get a few pounds of it at your local feed store – same drug. I believe the impact of hormone use is largely unexplored but is probably similar.
After seeing the movie of folks using an end loader to move a downed cow, I have real problem eating beef. At least I am doing my own dirty work when I pop a squirrel or arrow a doe. I smell the warm guts and get their blood on my hands. I know that they died so that I could eat and am grateful for that fact. OTOH thee are those that are incredibly smart and I admire their will to live.
A vegan diet is the best. Not only it boosts the immune system, but it does not come with hormones, antibiotics, cholesterol, saturated fats, denatured protein, all kinds of bacteria, feces and other unwanted elements. It comes with all the vitamins and essential amino acids (some doctors still did not update themselves with the newly discovered facts about the plant-based diet, too bad). If you started to feel sorry for an animal, think about it and expand the feeling. Eventually you will feel the same about all the animals…. Eating a plant-based diet will also keep you healthier and younger...
I hunt. I kill. I eat what I kill. As far as I'm concerned, Lily is spot on. But, unfortunately those who detest hunting and raise their angry voices against it will someday outnumber those who support it. Just like Presidential elections, the majority isn't always right. Hunting for ones meat is the purest form of naturalism that one can achieve. As a hunter, I am one with the natural world and have a deep respect for the animals that provide me with nourishment. Can you say the same when you buy your meat that is prepackaged and of unknown origin and quality? I think not. The deer I kill during the hunting season provides me and my family with a years worth of meat and helps keep them off the hood of your car.
The species evolved a brain and tool making to make up for our stubby teeth, puny little nails and relatively poor running ability (good endurance but poor speed). The result is a Hoyt or Browning. Shrimp and oysters are animals just the same as cattle and plants are living too. Try as I may, I can't come up with a good recipe for rocks that does not involve something that was once living.
One very important difference to consider with hunting compared to a natural ecosystem is this: In a natural ecosystem, it's survival of the fittest. The old, sick and crippled animals can't compete for food and can't escape from predators as well as the fittest, so they get eaten. Only the strongest animals survive to reproduce. Over time, the herd or flock gets stronger and better adapted to their environment. After hunters are introduced in this ecosystem, they mostly want to take home the biggest goose, duck or that trophy buck. By taking the strongest, most fit individuals from the herd, over time the herd gets weaker and less adapted, leading to decline. Hunters need to take the weaker animals if they truly want to be conservationists.
John,
Regardless of what I think of your comment, you should know that the common use of "Survival of the Fittest" is incorrect. In science, it actually refers to one's ability to reproduce, i.e., someone with 5 offspring is more 'fit' than someone with just 3. When people use this term incorrectly, it's like nails on a chalkboard to me!
John- I find your comments interesting...I can tell you are not a hunter, and that is not to be condescending, just merely an observation. To say hunters alter the health of a herd of deer of flock of birds is simply unfounded in any sort of research. Let's take snow geese, for example. Their overpopulation has reached an almost epidemic level that is resulting in average adult weight being significantly less than it was a decade ago, because there are too many birds for their arctic habitat. If there was not a special conservation season for these waterfowl, who knows how much the situation would have been exacerbated. Also, to generalize hunters together as wanting to harvest the biggest of everything they can seems unfair to me. I think if you asked most hunters about their most memorable hunts, many would tell you of a great sunrise enjoyed with friends. Thanks.
Mike, I understand where you are coming from with your argument about survival of the fittest however a very small percentage of animals today have any natural predator other than man. As a result populations grow unchecked, disease spread quickly and overgrazing leads to nutritional issues. Additionally, regulated hunting provides financial support to the vast majority of wildlife management (Depts of Natural Resources) today. Like it or not hunters are necessary to the existence of many species today.
If you have ever hunted, particularly birds you would know that it is near impossible to choose the "quality" of your game. It is simply too hard to identify if it is the appropriate species, and legal (male female) before your shot opportunity is gone. As for big game, 97% of hunters are public land hunters. That "trophy buck" hunter you see is the product of television and we all know what the reality of those on TV is.....not very close to everyday people like you and me.
If it was all about "trophy" hunting then states would not provide tags for females or have antler restrictions such as "spike only" on males.
That's an assumption of someone who doesn't know anything about hunting.
Not all hunters are only out for the trophy, they're actually a minority. And I'll tell you why, because it's very easy to see.
Most hunters want some meat in the freezer. Hunting season only lasts so long. I don't know what you think about deer and elk, but the ones from my neck of the woods somehow KNOW when it is hunting season, and they get the hell out of dodge for the most part. So you've got a hunter who's been out in the woods for a few days, it's cold and wet, and where the hell are the animals? THERE'S ONE SHOOT IT! Who cares if it's a little spike buck or Bambi's dad, they just want to fill their tag.
Exclusive trophy hunters are their own breed of people, but they certainly don't represent most hunters.
Well-said John and I'm REALLY glad you brought up this point. It is the extent that a hunter will seek out and kill ONLY the genetically weaker animals - the animals that would have otherwise been killed and eaten by mountain lions, etc. - that is the extent to which they are participating in the natural system. Otherwise they are acting absolutely against it … and I have yet to meet a hunter that has shown a sensitivity to this concern, much less been aware of it prior to my pointing it out to them.
No animal can outrun a bullet or survive having both of their lungs collapsed by an arrow, ETC. therefore humans hunting can never be a part of a truly wise wildlife management program.
As a hunter and fisher with an anthropological background, this argument has sparked my interest. Especially the statement, "why do we still have to cause screaming and pain when we can be healthy and happy without doing it? it's the 21st century... time to elevate ourselves higher. .... be humane (humane means no killing)" I get it, there is a concern for the death of an animal and the suffering. A true hunter knows that its about the best shot, not the first shot, so there is no suffering. However, I am more intrigued by the idea that we would be elevating ourself higher by becoming vegan or vegetarian... if i am understanding that statement correctly, retracing our evolutionary footsteps by about 3.5 million years would be elevating ourself? Elevating ourselves should involve moving forward, not backward... it should involve embracing the fact that we succeeded as a species and we are not still trying to remove ants and termites from their homes using a stick. Also, before you bash hunters, you should become informed, I will not say much about your lifestyle because I am not fully informed, all i know is that it is not for me, if it makes you happy good for you, thats what this life is about, being happy. Happiness to me is sunrise over duck decoys or white tail running through the woods. to each his own, right?
Elevating ourselves means elevating to a higher level of conscious, be more compassionate and loving – we must treat others as we wish to be treated. We elevated when we stopped the sacrificing of others, slavery, implementing the human rights and others. If you think that killing animals is not in the same category, how come we love our pets and know that they have pain and are smart and love life…. In China is normal to torture and eat dogs – the more they torture the more they think the meat tastes better…. I am happy when I know someone else (including an animal) is happy… but I guess you are of a different kind…
OMG what an absolutely pathetic philosophy. There is no end goal of humanity. There is no requirement to become what you think humanity should become. People like you are the scum of the earth.
I'll hunt till the day I die and while I am enjoying my harvests I'll think of losers like you and laugh.
People in China are also very happy when they eat the ‘tasty’ flesh of a tortured dog. I’ve been vegan for 6 years, I don’t need to eat ants and termites and I’m healthier than ever. They might taste good, but not necessary for our diet. Humans started eating them not because they needed them, otherwise me and many other people, some who were vegans all their lives, would be dead by now. I also raised 2 children with no meat and dairy in the fridge and both excel in arts, music and very intelligent. I wish you could see them or I could send you some of their work They are not skinny either
Sorry Vegans are not as healthy as people who eat properly raised animal products. That is an undeniable fact. You can take your holier than thou arrogance and stick it you know where.
really?? you can say that you don't want to be vegan or vegetarian, and I respect that. but you need to study your health science. Vegans are extremely healthy people, unless they don't eat properly. which is true for all types of eaters. my vegetarian 10 year old goes to the doctor once ayear, for a physical, where she is in the 90th percentile for height and weight and is in perfect health. she's never had a stomach "virus" and missed school one day for a cold. I can't find a single omnivore or carnivore friend of hers who is as healthy. go figure...
July 3, 2012 at 11:59 am |
guest
i respect your desire to eat meat, but your science has no factual basis. my vegetarian 10 year old goes to the doctor once a year, for a check up, and she is in the 90th percentile for height and weight and is very healthy. she never has gotten a stomach "virus" and missed one day of school for a "cold". I cannot think of one omnivore or carnivore friend of hers with such a great track record. also, colon cancer runs in my family, and my doctors are very happy that i eat a plant based diet to reduce my risks of getting that disease.
July 3, 2012 at 12:21 pm |
IgnoreThem
Primal4Life, grow up. The vegan diet works for her and her kids, and it does work quite well for many others. Maybe you should stick it and stick it hard.
July 3, 2012 at 1:12 pm |
Primal 4 Life
So sad. My comment is 100% correct and backed by science. Do some research for yourself. I feel sorry for your kids.
When you try to justify hunting by combining all the different points, which, by the way, are all well-known, you get a very superficial argument. The resulting word "ethical" becomes pretty much meaningless. You can argue against each and every one of the 5 points and worse, most if not all the points are not complementary with each other. Many people who are against factory farming are so because of compassionate and not environmental reasons – food factory might actually create a smaller overall footprint on the environment., etc. etc.
So my conclusion is that the author dump her her claim as a "environmentalist, loud an proud" and just say that she's a "hunter, plain and simple"..
I agree with the writer but her viewpoint can be an answer only for a few.
Reason being, every wild animal in the world would have to be killed and that would still not satiate the human appetite for meat. Farming animals is the only way to do that. The real answer it to reduce meat consumption. Consume it once/twice a week at most.
meat and animals products is like alcohol or chocolate or sweets.... if you like it and you are not strong enough you will eventually eat more... we crave what we have in the blood. when one quits eating animal protein, in a matter of weeks the taste buds change and you don't crave it anymore. Why not eliminate completely animals products from our diet..... cooked blood is still blood... we are not vampires...
You sound like a mental patient lena. If I go off meat for a period, I'm simply going to eat twice what I missed when I'm allowed to go back.
Meat TASTES GOOD!
Why be at the top of the food chain, if you can't enjoy the fruits of such a position?
Seriously, just turn in your incisors and canines if all you're going to do is chew your cud.
Fred I doubt you could be any more shallow if you tried.
July 3, 2012 at 11:04 am |
lena
i bet you are very proud of your name 'Fred Evil' and consider yourself mentally stable... i wish we would have less like you
July 3, 2012 at 11:09 am |
Fred Evil
Sure I could Mike, I could trot out all sorts of silly hyperbole about the sanctity of 'eating vegan' or I could wax eloquent on the 'emotional high' I get from eating leaves and twigs.
Shallow works for me just as well as duma$$ seems to work for you.
I, and my family, eat well and live better.
Hope that puts a twig in your craw!
July 3, 2012 at 4:15 pm |
Fred Evil
Sure I could, I could pretend to be 'holier than thou' like the rest of you vegans tw 1ts.
July 3, 2012 at 4:16 pm |
Nick A
lena your argument is weak... The only reason humans are where they are today is becasue we EAT meat... Our brains would never have developed to what it is today without meat protein... I assume if the human race went vegetarian as you are suggesting, in a few million years we would probably revert back to some subspecies... use it or lose it....
Nick your argument would be much more persuasive if we were still int he early stages of human evolution. We aren't. It's time to grow up.
July 3, 2012 at 11:09 am |
lena
I think we use only about 3% of our brain... do you think that if we didn't search and kill (which does not require too much science) but instead grown our grains, vegetables and fruits, we would be more limited? An European study shows that vegetarians (vegans) children have a higher IQ by about 15%. All the philosophers and great inventors were vegetarians. (Leonardo Da Vincy, Einstein, Plato, Socrates, Pythagoras and many others.) Animal protein changes the negative charge of our red cells and they clot to each other. When 2 red cells are clotted, they will never go through a capillary and all of our bodily cells will suffer from oxygen and nutrients deficiency and their waste and carbon dioxide will not be removed. Especially suffers our brain and skin…. I wish I had more time to bring the facts…. and English is not my first language.
July 3, 2012 at 11:21 am |
ONTHunter
@Lena...Unfortunately, its this philosophy that will eventually be the downfall of the human race. A bunch of smart asses that are too "smart" for manual labor. The skilled trades are what keeps any economy moving. Look at the US's top exports...(Oil/Fuel, cars, wheat/grains, lumber)...all blue collar jobs that everyone is too lazy, sorry, too smart, to do.
July 3, 2012 at 4:53 pm |
Ratt
Lena Honey, stop lying, Man was made to eat meat, get over it.
I'm sure the cannibals think that Man was made to eat Man
July 3, 2012 at 11:23 am |
lena
animal products are like alcohol, drugs, chocolate and sweets..... if you are not strong enough you will end up eating more. We crave what we have in our blood. When one quits eating all animal products, in a matter of weeks the taste buds change and you no longer crave it... The plant based food really becomes tasty. let's admit, eating cooked blood is no different than eating raw blood and we are not vampires
lena, you and your argument are a joke. In one post you insist that after a few weeks, your body simply 'stops craving meat' and then you no longer need it, yet in another you say that you have to be strong always.
Which is it, do you need a moment to get your B S story straight?
Killing your own dinner is just like doing your own dentistry or surgery. You aren't an expert, there will be a lot of suffering while you become one, and at the end of it, you'll wonder why you bothered in the first place.
I think it is more ethical to have an industry that keeps improving its treatment of animals, and not letting everybody make their own decisions on the lives of animals. I know people who work at slaughterhouses, and they do care if animals suffer. Some of them have worked on improving kill methods to be virtually instantaneous.
Hunt if you want to, I am against it but I don't think it should be banned. But don't make believe there is somehow a "better" associated with hunting versus the meat industry, you're fooling yourself.
Keeps improving? The entire meat industry is hell-bent on hiding the incredible suffering endured by animals. They fight tooth and nail against every single animal welfare improvement. Clearly, you have never been in a slaughterhouse.
of course eating meat can not be banned... not even God interferes with our free will. We should learn to detect what bad habits we picked up from our ancestors and eliminate them.... We've done well with human scarifies, slavery, human rights..... Killing is not something you would want to teach your children..... Killing humans and animals is not right... it kills our noble qualities.... No child would kill a cat or a dog or a chicken or a piglet unless he/she was a hunter in the previous life. in many cases these are people who kill people when the opportunity comes along
You're missing the point. I once killed a chicken with my bare hands, under supervision. My instructor told me exactly how to slit its throat and the right amount of force to apply to the knife. The bird flapped and bled for about a minute. It had a profound impact on me. I am not against consuming meat, but modern breeding methods have totally removed us from the suffering of animals. To your point the answer is to reduce meat consumption since every wild animal in the world could be killed and mankind would still need infinitely more.
rh, you are so wrong in so many ways. You should visit a factory farm someday. See the sick animals that are grain fed, not allowed to wander and graze, stand on concrete all day and then have their short lives ended in hideous ways. I don't want you to hunt if you don't want to, but don't comment on things you don't know about. When I take an animal it is a quick and humane put down that is well thought out and helps keep the animal population healthy and in check (because we have killed off all the natural predators in order to protect our cattle). For you to imply that somehow hunting and harvesting an animal in the wild is more savage than what is done in the factory farms and slaughter houses just shows a total lack of knowlege on the subject.
You obviously know little about hunting or the massive meat market and how they slaughter. I would rather be shot by a hunter (like my Dad or brother) then be dismembered while still alive after receiving only a shock that barely stemmed the massive fear from hearing and knowing what is to come. Educate yourself before you speak, and we'll all be better off.
You know nothing – absolutely nothing – about how animals are slaughtered in the U.S. or you wouldn't have made such an absolutely ignorant, uninformed, and blatantly untruthful statement.
RH, spoken like someone who as never been closer to a slaughter house than the meat counter at Whole Foods. Commercial meat processing is about efficient production, not ethical ways of killing and bleeding.
i am 100% vegan 100% of the time and have been vegetarian then vegan since 1976 when i was 14 (i'm 50).
i respect hunters who take responsibility for their murder much more than i respect "animal lovers" who "could never kill anything" but have no problem buying their carcass wrapped up in styrofoam and plastic.
You, like everyone else, is entitled to your own opinion. There is nothing wrong with that, and I thing everybody here would agree.
However, when you try to 'push' your opinion on everybody else, or insist that "your way" is the only 'right' way, and that everybody who doesn't see things that way is "wrong", then you just make a complete and total a _ _ of yourself. And you're doing a fantastic job of that, you deserve a raise.
Hunters are actually not an important part of maintaining natural populations..... I've never heard of a newly found island or a wild place where humans did not set their foot to have problems with 'natural population'. Nature balances itself if humans don't interfere and everyone eats what they are meant to eat by nature. Humans are herbivorous and I mean ALL humans. Some just have a stronger DNA and do not develop diseases as earlier as others from animal protein. Animal products kill and I am glad more and more research and experiments are done recently on the health of vegans verses meat eaters. For example, diabetes can be healed in about a month on a vegan diet. Our intestine is herbivorous…. and we should learn compassion and love in this lifetime, otherwise is a waste of time.
First off, I respect your veganism and fully understand the environmental benefits of veganism. However, it is dangerous to put the idea out there that veganism will cure dieases like diabetes. There are different types of diabetes some of which can not be cured by diet. The Inuet eat diets largely based on meat and show little signs of heat disease and diabetes. I recommend reading In Defense of Food by Michael Pollan. Also, humans are omnivores and we evolved that way as evidenced by tools and animal bones found at ancient human garbage caches by archeologists/anthropologists.
actually, you may want to check the facts about the inuet's health, i've heard very different facts, and look at their life expectancy (without modern medicine intervening, too). they also have a high rate of osteoporosis due to the high animal protein in their diet (it takes calcium out of the bloodstream to digest animal proteins).
Do a little more research before you start posting about animal over population. Of course you never heard of animal over population because your ears are closed when that subject comes up.
"Hunters are actually not an important part of maintaining natural populations..... I've never heard of a newly found island or a wild place where humans did not set their foot to have problems with 'natural population'. Nature balances itself if humans don't interfere..."
Would it help you if I refer to myself as a predator rather than a hunter? I don't interfere with nature I am a part of it. You have some interesting beliefs but the main one seems to revolve around your own smug sense of superiority. Not everyone can, or wants to live as you do. Go to Mongolia and try to convince the nomadic peoples there to become as "enlightened" as you are. Try to convince a Lakota of the evils of his ancestor's ways.
Lena, you are misunderstanding the point of population control. Yes, nature does balance itself out. If there are too many wolves, they will eat more deer that can be reproduced. With no food, the wolves will die of starvation and the deer population will recover. Same thing goes with the deer's diet of vegetation...if there are too many deer, they will eat too much of the foliage and deer will die of starvation. By allowing hunting, those deer that would die of starvation and be wasted, are harvested and consumed by humans. Hunters also help control the predator population, thus preserving the smaller animals like deer, rabbits, etc.
Whenever humans interfered with nature they ruined it. Humans were not supposed to kill animals for food. Check what the Bible had to say originally (2nd page). Check what Socrates, Einstein, Plato, Leonardo Da Vinci, Pythagoras, Buda and most of the great minds that brought invention to our world had to say about killing animals. They were vegetarians..... and their brain capacity exceed ours.
Last I checked, humans were part of nature. How can their "interference" be any different than other animals of nature? I understand that as a whole humans are idiots, self-serving morons that don't think ahead or see the big picture, but the fact remains that they ARE a part of nature, pure and simple. This planet will not be able to sustain all of its inhabitants for much longer because humans, with their superior intelligence, continue to discover ways to keep us alive longer, unnaturally, and therefore will continue to put pressure on the food supplies, clean air and water, etc.
Once man defied God's order NOT to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (original sin), God was the first to kill an animal, part of His own creation. He did so to cover man and woman, as they now, for the first time recognized that they were naked. From that time, man was given the right to kill to eat. He was later commanded to kill as an atoning sacrifice for his sins.
As a hunter, I hunt both for sport and for the meat. I hunt only what I and my family will eat, or can give to another for food. The meat processor I use donates the hides from deer to be used to make leather gloves for veterans. They also have a program to donate any meat not wanted by a hunter to feed the hungry. I make a point to thank God for both the game harvested and the ability and freedom to hunt.
That probably explains why there are so many prehistoric cave drawings of people eating roots, fruit and vegetables. Seriously, I have no doubt that you know very little about what "most" great minds had to say about eating meat.
You might to explain this to the female dear that stumbled into my backyard yesterday with a gaping gunshot wound through it's upper chest and front leg. Some jack as s shot it out of season, but missed enough of it to seriously wound it, but not kill it.
That's not typical of most hunters. It would be a shame if you judge all hunters by what this one person did. I hunt, but if I knew the person that did this I would be the first to call law enforcement on them.
It is like everything else, they want to make their own decisions to the extent that they ignore the consequences.
My child just had her tonsils out, and I had a doctor do it. Maybe I could have done it, but there would have been a lot of suffering.
Hunting for sport is just an excuse for transferring a need to hurt humans to a need to hurt other living things. Hunting for food is bullcrap for 99.99999% of people.
sad, and these stories aren not uncommon. people are warned to stay out of the woods during hunting season lest they be shot "by accident", and so many dogs and livestock animals get shot during hunting season that it is ridiculous. and let's not forget that great hunter Dick Cheny who shot his friend in the face!!!
Derp, first of all, unless you are a forensic pathologist familiar with gunshots and was close enough to examine the wound, you are in no position to determine what caused the injury to the deer. More likely a car than a gunshot, Second, hunters and law enforcement have a name for people who chose to shoot animals out of season: criminals. On a related topic, I would be willing to bet that most of the arrests of people who shoot/trap/kill animals out of season are made as a result of hunters turning them in to law enforcement in the first place.
First of all that is a poacher not a hunter and every hunter hates poachers. Also for every animal out there that is wounded by a hunter there is a heck of a lot more running around with gaping wounds from predators(coyotes, wolves, lions, cats) that didn't get the job done.
While I'm sure some hunters are passionate about the environment and thus, avoid factory farmed meat, most groups that support (or rather, PROFIT off of hunting) use the 'environmental' angle as an excuse to enjoy their hobby. Hunters–more than anything–love the thrill of dominating another species, and of taking life. At the end of the day, a life is a life, and murder is murder–whether you aim your gun at a deer or a human being. Humans don't need meat to survive and thrive.
Then you either know some pretty bad people, or you learned absolutely nothing from them. As long as you are indicting people for hunting perhaps you would like to go ahead and indict the entire Native American culture, particularly the tribes of the great plains. Yes, those people had no appreciation for the land or nature. You are typical of those sorts of judgmental people who want to tell everyone else how to live. Makes you feel superior does it?
July 3, 2012 at 10:47 am |
Lala
From what you wrote, I certainly wouldn't consider your dad a "hunter" in any capacity.
July 3, 2012 at 11:04 am |
rh
It's not just that we don't need meat, it's that we don't need meat that is hunted down and injured then dies at some point.
I am an omnivore, and know people in the slaughterhouse industry as well as livestock farmers. There is a heck of a lot of care that goes into making sure animals that end up on our table don't suffer.
I used to fish as a kid, until I realized how much suffering the fish went through. It may be "fun" but I can play sports or a video game and have as much fun.
The "god syndrome" is a huge part of hunting – power over another's life. Any hunter, or fisherman for that matter, who tells you otherwise is a liar.
rh – Since you are so against suffering... How do you feel about abortion? Do babies feel their bodies being sucked apart while still alive? Do they feel scissors being inserted at the base of their skulls and twisted to end their lives? Do you justify this suffering for the sake of convenience or human rights?
So you're saying you would treat a pet dog or cat with the same love as a son or daughter? Also, I wonder how many murders you have committed by killing poor defenseless insects. You should be on death row by now! Oh right, you probably don't believe that murder should be taken care of with capitol punishment.
I have a question for tree huggers. Are only CERTAIN animals worthy of killing? Like rats and roaches? Or do we not kill anything? Arent plants living things too? Im serious these are not rhetorical questions
Hi Curtis–compassionate people who support animal rights don't believe in killing rats or cockroaches either ;) Animals (including humans) are sentient beings (any living creature who has developed enough consciousness and awareness to experience feelings, particularly suffering). Plants are alive, but they aren't sentient beings. Not only is eating a plant-based diet humane and ethical–but it is also THE best way to support the environment and better your health.
Hunting is by definition an activity that leads to suffering. There are too many variables in place to ensure a clean kill.
I eat meat, and know that animals are killed so I can have my burgers and ribs. But there is a huge difference between a bull getting killed in a slaughterhouse, where there are regulations about making sure suffering is a minimum, and shooting at something that is trying to get away.
Hunting is you playing God, period. It only exists because certain people feel powerless in their lives and interactions with humans, so killing an animal makes them feel better. Hunting for sport or food is meaningless for most people.
Saying that hunting is traditional and therefore valuable is like saying that rape is traditional and therefore valuable. We know better now.
While I agree with your thoughts about hunting, you should know that there is also a GREAT DEAL of suffering with animals on factory farms and in slaughterhouses. There are also very few regulations (and any that exist are rarely enforced) in order to reduce farm animal suffering.
rh – You said "Hunting for sport or food is meaningless for most people." What makes you qualified to know the inner thoughts of "most people"?
MANY hunters place great value on the hunt even more than they do the kill. MANY hunters go so far as to consider a hunt succesful even when they never fired a shot or sent an arrow flying. There is a commaraderie between hunters that goes far beyond slapping high fives after an animal is down. There is a respect both for the animal and its environment. There is a bonding of hunters that takes place in nature that goes beyond the understanding of "antis". I respect your right to choose to not hunt, but please, don't pretend to know the minds of those who choose to hunt. I'll admit there are "bad apples" in every sub-group of people. MANY hunters look down on those who call themselves hunters who do not follow ethical and lawful pursuit of game animals. We also try to distance ourselves from those folks who don't respect the animals we hunt and the environment where they live.
Very well written article. I've had family and friends my entire life that hunted and fished. Personally, I'm a fisher myself, but I've been thinking about getting into small game hunting near my house. I like the idea of knowing where my food is coming from, and having spent most of my life in cattle/pig country, I'm well acquainted with slaughter houses. I actually enjoy spending my time out looking for wild vegetables as well. I have several very good books/guides on local native edibles/medicinals. I feel more comfortable knowing that I can identify most of the good and bad things in my area. Gives me a sense of connection with the place I live.
Reason #6 (I am surprised she missed this one) – In many areas, there are not sufficient natural predators to keep the game populations healthy. I live in Illinois, and in areas where hunting occurs, the deer are plentiful, but not over abundant, and the herds are healthy. Near Chicago, where hunting can't occur due to population densities, the DNR has to come in and thin the populations to prevent them from becoming diseased. hunting
one of the main reasons why there are no natural predators is because they have all been killed by hunters or the government. you should know that the states' fish and game people manipulate the environment to ensure that there is a surplus of "game" animals to hunt. they plant things that deer love to eat and get rid of species that interfere with the "game" animals, such as killing off the wild horses and burros out west. I have a house in Pa. and can't believe how many deer have 2 or 3 fawns with them at a time. that shouldn't happen , but it does because there is too much food. there are also non-lethal ways to control animal populations, including contraceptives which can be placed in feed.
White tailed deer are extremely overpopulated in North America, especially in the suburban northeast, and are destroying the environment every day they're allowed to roam without the predators that controlled them in the past. Many are skin and bones much of the year, and die by the millions of starvation during the harsher winters. They come through the forest like locusts, wiping out the vital undergrowth that tens of millions of birds, butterflies, and other animals depend on for food and shelter. Native plants can tolerate an occasional deer population spike, but year after year of heavy foraging causes the extirpation (local extinction) of these plants. To make matters worse, this foraging leaves room for exotic, non-native and inedible invasive plants to grow like crazy. These exotic plants are "ecological deserts", providing very little shelter and almost no food for native species of birds, butterflies, and other wildlife to survive, causing population crashes (and eventually extinctions). For more information, read "Bringing Nature Home" by Douglas W Tallamy, ISBN-13 ending in 9928
"...They come through the forest like locusts..." - My god, you certainly know how to use words. "Locusts" to describe deer population? Deer are overpopulated only because human beings are destroying and using up their habitat. If you give them all of 1 acre of land, just 1 deer would be considered overpopulation.
Cookie, you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Deer populations are exploding in most states because their populations are no longer kept in check by other predators (think: coyotes). Here in Michigan, the deer population is larger than it was a hundred years ago! Do some research before you make another inane and ignorant comment.
so why did Michigan wipe out its wolf and coyote populations?????
July 3, 2012 at 11:42 am |
Chrissy
Guest,
I think the rationale had to do with livestock and a general fear of the animals. The good news is that wolves are coming back! (well, it's good news to me:) ) A population from Minnesota has found its way to the Upper Peninsula. Also, coyotes are becoming more common throughout the state. I'm not sure how all this will turn out, and definitely state regulations will make a play, but hopefully a healthy balance can be reached again!
July 3, 2012 at 12:00 pm |
BrokenKnome
Not everyone has the stomach for hunting...it's a pretty big deal to get up the nerve to pull a trigger and take a life. I dont actively hunt now but have many times in my younger years. (Partridge stew is delicious!) I dont believe in trophy hunting and everything you kill should be for food and done as humanely as possible. It's totally cool if you dont believe in hunting, but many of us dont have an issue with it. Like it or not, Hunting is necessary for the conservation of the environment and our way of life. If animal populations are not kept in check, many will starve in the winter...just as an example.
THE BAD NEWS ABOUT HUNTING IS THE G&F WHO HAVE OVER REGULATED IT AND NOW ARE NEEDING MONEY IN A BAD ECONOMY SO THEY ARE GETTING VERY PRONE TO WRITTING TICS FOR ANY LITTLE THING AND THE FINES ARE HORRENDOUS.
Thats only fair, but in the end I will win. They have teeth and claws but I have guns, other wonderful machines and a superior brain. Yay dominant specie!
i wonder how much we will win if all the wild animals will be used for food? hmmmmmm 6 billion people kill 60 billion animals a year..... I wouldn't want to live on this planet. I don't like it now when i know how little heart humans have – 60 billion animals tortured and killed each year....
Please direct me to the credible and source cited publication that states 60 billion animals are tortured each year by humans. I don't see you complaining and fussing when a bear kills and eats fish and other animals when they can survive just on berries and other plants. Or instead of killing an animal quickly like a human, a wolf pack shreds an animal to death. If an animal had a choice it would rather be hunted by a human than another animal. How we kill is down right merciful compared to how other predetors kill.
Is this a bad time to tell you even if you don't eat animals you are using their products right now? How does it feel to contribute to the death of animals to support your life? I feel pretty good and I'm going out for lunch to celebrate, yes, meat is on the menu.
July 3, 2012 at 12:38 pm |
waves
I agree with a lot of what this article has to say. Hunters do OFTEN make good conservationists, but that doesn't mean they have mystical knowledge or that they can manage the healthy populations on their own. Factory animal husbandry, though is despicable is a very efficient way of obtaining meat. I am not 100% sure that we could all just convert to hunters and provide enough food for everyone in a manageable manner. I am not saying I am right, this is just an untested hypothesis I have.
Well spoken. I'm an ecologist, and hunters are actually an important part of maintaining natural populations of many game animals, given that most natural predators that control populations of grazers have been killed off. But you are right in the sense that game populations are a limited, albeit renewable resource that has to be tightly regulated, otherwise it will be gone quickly. Everyone (not even close to everyone) can hunt for their meat.
As I hunter I think this was a very well written statement by the author. I do, however, have to take issue with one point made in her first arguement. McCaulou states, "No land is tilled to feed a wild animal, so additional carbon isn’t released into the atmosphere." Everytime I go hunting I have to drive in my car to my favorite duck blind or backwater slough. This requires the buring of gasoline which adds fossil carbon in the form of CO2 to the atmosphere. A life-cyle assessment would be required to determine which contributes more fossil carbon to the atmosphere on a per kg of meat harvested when all processes in the life-cycle are considered.
I recommend reading the Omnivore's Dilemma or In Defense of Food by Michael Pollan if you are interested in the benefits of eating wild game over mass produced agro-industrial meat.
Yes I do drive my car to the store to buy processed meat which obviously releases CO2 to the atmosphere. However, I only drive less than a mile or two to my urban grocery store. To drive to many of my hunting locations requires drives of 60+ miles. Again, a life-cycle assessment would be required to determine which makes more sense from a kg CO2 emmitted per kg of processes meat. I know I don't always harvest game everytime I go hunting either.
I grew up in a village in Moldova where people were killing their own animals. It was very disturbing, I would run away and plug my ears not to hear the excruciating scream of the animals being killed and my body would become weak. I remember like now seeing my neighbor cutting the head of a chicken that was screaming so loud and then jumping on the ground with no head, full in blood – I thought to myself 'how could she do it'? At that time I was told that a human being can not live without meat and dairy. When I found out that is not true, I went vegan – one of my best choices I’ve made in my life. Killing is never ethical and many philosophers and great minds kept telling us this throughout the ages. btw, killing animals for food kills our compassion, our health and our planet. The killing tendency is ingrained in us since the time we enjoyed sacrificing humans. Most people start killing people by practicing on animals.
I lived for 20 years in my country where people raise their own animals 'ethically' and never killed one for my food... I couldn't even if I wanted to – too gruesome
Veganism may be ok for adults, but it isn't the best choice for kids. Kids, who do not typically eat a lot, need to consume a lot of veggies to maintain suffiicient intake of vitamin D, B12, calcium, iron. Fortunately, nature gave us meat in order to sustain ourselves and our children and save us from having to have to spend unneeded hours planning and finding plant-based substitutes so we can have more time time to spend with them.
this concept was derived from researching only the animal-based diet. only recently more research is done on plant-based diet and both meat-eaters and vegans luck these vitamins. This is because we don't eat organic foods. Babies and children who are vegan are much calmer than others and their IQ is higher. Please research
I wish someone will take the babies who were fed proper food and compare their health state with non-vegans. First of all, all animal protein make our body too acidic and our red cells loose their negative charge clotting to each other – this is the start of hypoxia and all of our organ failure. Two red cells clotted to each other can not pass through capillaries and all our bodily cells suffer from luck of oxygen and nutrients and their Carbon Dioxide and waste can't be removed. This is the beginning of all of our degenerative diseases, physical, mental, neuro......
July 3, 2012 at 9:59 am |
tacc2
"Kids, who do not typically eat a lot, need to consume a lot of veggies to maintain suffiicient intake of vitamin D, B12, calcium, iron."
Your ignorance of nutrition amazes me. All the vitamin D you need can be obtained from about 10 minutes per day of exposure to sunlight. Vitamin B12 can not be obtained from plant sources. It can only be obtained through eating animal products OR in supplements where it is derived from microbial sources. You can get calcium and iron in veggies, though you don't have to eat as many as you might think if you eat the right ones. Also, you do not have to "spend unneeded hours planning and finding plant-based substitutes". If you know what you're doing it's actually pretty easy.
vegans have all the vitamins and essential amino acids. For example, it is not how much one has B12, but how much of it can be absorbed or is maintained in the stomack. animal protein requres a lot of acid to be broken down, many of the vitamins are distroyed in this acidic environment. Also, animal protein coagulate our blood and it can not bring the left over B12 to our cells. As a vegan, you might have a little bit of B12 comming from organic foods (from the soil), but it will be properly absorbed and most of it will end up used.
If you are not eating any foods of animal origin and you are not eating products made with 'enriched' or 'fortified' grains and you aren't eating "yeast extract", then you are not getting B12 – period!!!! THERE ARE NO PLANT SOURCES OF B12. There are a couple of B12 'precursors' found in some plants, but humans cannot convert these to the active form of the vitamin. Believe what you want to, spout what you want to, but 'vegan' coupled with 'all natural foods' is a recipe for pernicious anemia.
you lost any credibility you had with "killing animals for food kills our compassion, our health and our planet."
July 3, 2012 at 10:24 am |
Heterotroph
How is killing plants any different? or harvesting the fruiting bodies of fungus? They prevent the successful individual you harvested from adding it's progeny to the gene pool. These acts are still killing, and if killing is unethical than how can we eat?
When you cut a branch of a plant, more will grow. When you cut the head or a leg, or an arm or anything from an animal, it won't grow back. There is also blood running everywhere..... if you compare an animal to a plant, then what’s the difference between a human and a plant?
Take humans and strip them of their tools. Now imagine trying to hunt animals.
The only reason we are able to hunt animals is because we invented bows and arrows, fishing rods, guns, etc. And even then, compared to the predators who have to have a successful hunt nearly every day in order to just survive, we are absolutely terrible at hunting.
There is no possible way that humanity was intended to hunt animals for food. It's just too unnatural for us to do.
We're actually very good hunters. Our intelligence is part of who we are and allows us to hunt effectively with tools, that's ok. And lets just stop all this talk about what we as a species are suppose to do, we do what we do, there is no "suppose to do" in nature. However, we are built for hunting and eating meat, and as an evolutionary biologist I'm willing to debate this issue if you'd like.
July 3, 2012 at 10:13 am |
bri guy
I'd be willing to open the debate regarding agriculture then. We have used our intelligence to irrigate, fertilize and harvest crops on a scale that is incomprehensible to most people. Do you really think humans were meant to cultivate thousands of acres of land for consumption? What about the tools required to be successful in large scale agricultural activities? Your argument holds no weight because we have spent just as much time and energy improving agriculture as we have the harvesting of animal products. To drive through the country and see all the vegetation brown and dead, yet the farmers crop is healthy and green, and call that 'natural'.... that's a twisted view of the natural world.
July 3, 2012 at 10:41 am |
ekwinne
Because plants have no nervous system, of any sort, and therefore cannot feel, think, and behave similarly to us. This is an important distinction, because when we kill another sentient organism we are basically torturing them and causing them pain. Additionally, most fruits are designed to be eaten, as we spread their seeds and increase their territorial reach, and consequently, their gene pool. We may also do this without killing the plant- simply taking the fruit and leaving the tree, bush, vine, whatever alive.
The things you eat are grown, harvested and made possible by displacing native species that were there first. Its the same thing as killing. On any farm no matter how small and "orgnic," native species die and are displaced. Unless you literally live in a grass hut in the woods and forage on wild twigs, berries, and grasses, your consumption choices (not limited to food) including your ownership of a computer are killing and displacing animals. I guess its easier to do it the nerf ball way where you can benefit from having someone else kill them for you.
Lena, perhaps in Moldova they didn't consider it "necessary" to try to kill farm animals humanely, or at least where YOU were, it was not a consideration. For example, it is possible to hold a chicken in your lap, gently stroking the animal's neck to try to relax it, and use a very sharp knife or razor to cut into the jugular vein and bleed it out. I admit it is VERY up-close and personal, but probably the animal does not suffer very much, if at all.
I don't eat meat because of concerns of saturated fat, but have no objection to those who do. We ALL eat too much meat and our entire ecosystem, including our own bodies, would benefit by reducing meat intake to say no more than once/twice per week. That would also reduce the amount of grain required to raise them, and reduce the amount of slaughter too.
I am NOT anti-hunting. Most hunters I know are very concerned about the animal they kill and ALWAYS use it entirely for food. If not for them, they donate the meat to people who need it much more than they.
Killing animals is not murder. But hunters have a responsibility to protect their environment, respect the animals they kill and try to do it as "humanely" as possible. Same with farmers.
I wouldn't want someone to 'hold a me in their lap, gently strke me on my neck to try to relax me, and use a very sharp knife or razor to cut into my jugular vein to bleed it out" Of course is better than a more painfull death, but it is still death
Oh, grow up! The "screams" of animals being killed? You can't equate any kind of "scream" from the vast majority of animals to that of something like a human being killed or tortured.
why do we still have to cause screaming and pain when we can be healthy and happy without doing it? it's the 21st century... time to elevate ourselves higher. .... be humane (humane means no killing)
i agree wholeheartedly! there is simply no need for 21st century humans in developed countries to eat meat in order to be healthy. rthat is why I have chosen to live cruelty free. but if you crave meat for your appetites, then kill it yourself!
July 3, 2012 at 11:13 am |
ONTHunter
Humane; characterized by tenderness, compassion, and sympathy for people and animals, especially for the suffering or distressed.
No where in that definition does it say no killing. It says compassion. I dont want that deer to starve to death over the winter or get eaten by wolves, so I am going to shoot it so it has a quick death. That is humane, by definition.
The article is spot-on, and it's nice that the author has now learned what lifelong hunters have always known. Nature is good. Hunters are more interested in conservation than any other group of folks. Talk is free; putting your money down for licenses and fees is what keeps the land open and clean.
Do you want to know what the human body is supposed to eat? Ask your dentist what each of your teeth are for. The human body is made to be able to eat both meat and veg. A balance of both is needed to be as healthy as one can be. Hunting is a better way to get cleaner meat and is more Human then farm raised animals. My Mother is now a vegetarian. Her reason is when she went and did the drive through the country in a RV they had seen the slaughter plants and how the animals were treated. She never eat meat from the store since that trip. Been years now. She will however eat meat from hunting. Animal was not mistreated or tortured.
I live in the hippy town of New Paltz, NY where every thing is protested. Anti this and anti that and the anti every thing. One time these college kids were in front of McDonalds and protesting against meat-eaters and how cruel it is. Mean while I am looking and one had this $300 leather coat on, all of them with there $100 sneakers. the leather belts..... Hypercritical would you not say?
Question for you anti hunters. Do you like your nice smelling shampoo? Animal fat from dead cows makes that. Got your cute little Pocket doggie? Its food from dead cows and chicken parts from the floor at the butcher plants. O here is a big one for you.... how about the war paint you call makeup? Yep once again animal fat. You are the people who hurt the environment the most. Bottled water? How many of those plastic bottles do you use a day?
Hunting is far the best way for fresh cleaner and more human way to get and eat meat. Love the saying.... Farm Fresh LOL.... Think about that for a min.
serious animal rights people only buy "cruelty free" toiletries and cosmetics and man-made clothing and shoes. you should know that many products look like leather but aren't and there are many "fake" fur products out there too. and you have to admit that not all hunters respect the environmet or the animals they shoot at, leaving the wounded to suffer, leaving gaarbage behind, etc. if you are an ethical hunter, I can be your friend, even though I am a vegetarian who supports animal rights.
There is something seriously wrong with anyone who would hunt for sport. Taking pleasure in causing another pain is pathological. I feel sorry for their children and others in their lives who are less powerful- they will be subjected to the violence in a sport hunter's heart in one way or another. The dominionism that fuels hunting is just another way of soothing poor self-esteem.
I am a vegetarian but I agree that if you eat meat you should have to kill it yourself and I agree that animals that are hunted for food have a far better life and death than farm animals. however, the elephant in the room is that there are many hunters who hunt for "sport", seeking out trophies for their walls or floors and killing animals that will never be eaten. they often take the strongest and healthiest animals, leaving the sickly and weak to suffer and breed. there are also hunters who lack skill and leave wounded animals to suffer or fill our waterways with lead shot. and the license fees often go to manipulationg the environment and removing predators so that there is a guaranteed surplus of "game animals" for the hunters. and let's not talk about Hunting "preserves" where people pay to kill tame animals in enclosures from all over the world. if these problems could be adressed, I would have no qualms with hunting at all!
If I had to hunt to eat, I'd be a vegetarian in a nano second. However, I have more respect for those who hunt to feed their family than I do for those who do it for "sport". Seems cowardly to camoflauge yourself up, sit in a tree and wait for the animal come to you. I think these idiots should get down out of their tree and tried to take down the animal with their bare hands. At least it would be a fair fight.
Go eat your veggie burgers linda. Why would a hunter unnecessarily take any animal life? If so its called poaching/wanton waste and is a crime. And doesn't the latest research prove that a diet with a little meat included is in fact healthy? There is nothing more spiritually beautiful and rewarding than being an active participant in the Great Circle of Life. An animal has died so that my family and I can live. If that isn't spiritual then I don't know what is!
If you are a vegetarian and/or don't like to hunt Great! Continue with your trips to the grocery store. Hunters go to the woods. Leave us alone! This is our choice. Fast food to me is a mallard flying past the duck blind on a cool October morning.
I was reading the other day when a pitt bull killed a 3 year old kid in someplace in Washington. their parents were crying in grief. They did kill the dog but could never bring the lost life. No true god would ever tell anyone to kill. The word kill is used only to get rid of your own vices and desires. The difference between spirituality and materiality is spirituals indulge in activities for the happiness of their and others souls, and materials use their brains to satisfy their desires and five senses. We Humans are considered to be the best of all because we have the ability to be spiritual and control our brains which in turn controls our senses instead of the other way round. If we forget what we are think what is the difference between us and that pit bull which slaughtered the harmless child. God did not create life to destroy other life...He created it to love......Jesus said that love your neighbor....he also said love your enemy......How can he tell anyone to kill anything who tells us to love even our enemies....Ask your heart and Jesus is inside you who will answer all your questions....Do not use relegious excuses to do the wrong....because no one else will pay for your sins....Jesus is our saviour but we still will have to pay for our sins....He will guide us but we still have to walk....
A quick kill for the meat is the objective, not a fight or battle with the animal. You would prefer a more "hand to hand" hunt where there would be a slower death and wounds? Think it through.
MOST people eat meat-thus a kill is going to happen period. Some of us prefer that our meat not be farm raised in pens with antibiotics and added hormones. This article was a nice surprise.
I've hunted my entire life and never met a hunter that only hunted for sport. We all eat what we kill. Yes, we enjoy the act of hunting, it's biological and I won't appologize for it, but we do what we do ethically (and as this author points out, we feel it's more ethical than those that simply buy their meat at the store with little to no respect for the animal that died to provide it). This idea that there's guys out there simply killing animals for fun and leaving them to waste is simply incorrect. I've never met a hunter that had this mind set. Every single hunter I've ever met wants a clean kill, to harvest the meat, and be part of nature.
21k – I'm sure there are hunters that drink before hunting, but I've never met one. There are people that drink before driving too. That doesn't mean all drivers are evil. I really wish people would stop trying to generalize hunters as some evil group of rednecks that just like to kill. As the article points out, we're actually pretty ethical about the way we go about things and how we view nature.
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If you are considering only our decision to eat a plant based diet then in this aspect yes, Elrond and all others, vegans are smarter and better because we understand that our desire to taste meat is inferior to the animals desire to live. A human's diet does not require animal products in order to be a healthy diet. However as vegans we do not conclude that in every other aspect of our existence are we better than someone else. Your defensiveness and frustration stem from guilt. Surely you will deny this (I did until I was 25), but I highly suggest you remove yourself from Rivendell and open your eyes to reality. Vegans are not "at it again" because we never stopped being at it. Vegans never stop caring and looking for opportunities to communicate inconvenient truths and messages of compassion to someone who has been blocked from the reality of the pain and suffering and trauma that is enmeshed in the life and death of any being that is killed so a human can enjoy 15-20 minutes of the flavor and texture of his/her body. This article is drenched in excuses that the writer has come up with in order to justify the unnecessary death of an animal. "her venison" is a red flag showing that her true intentions are to remind herself that she is a dominant species, that she is predator, that she is capable of owning anything and everything that leaves a footprint on this earth. If she were truly in touch with nature she would see the abundance it provides that allows humans to eat healthfully with out inflicting pain or causing death to animals that want to live their lives just as we want to live our own. I sincerely ask any of you who feel the need to argue what I have said to first consider why humans eat animals when they are in no way a dietary requirement. Never say never to being vegan. It is a hell of a lot more easy, more peaceful, more in-tune with nature than spending hours picking off animals that have their own families, feelings, desires and instincts to survive.
Carafrye, thank you. I'm always amazed by the hostility and outrage expressed toward vegans and vegetarians. Your post was well put.
carafrye,
Your post only highlights my point. You stated that you are indeed smarter and better than those of us who don't share your opinions and views. How utterly arrogant is that?
You, much like religious zealots, insist that your way is the only true way, and you continue to try to convert we barbaric heathens whom you see as stupid and unenlightened.
I don't see anyone here trying to convert you away from being a vegan. Do you? I couldn't care less what you eat. That's your choice and your right, based on your beliefs. But apparently, I am not afforded that same courtesy.
All your "inconvenient truths" seem to be pseudo-science opinions that are not peer-reviewed and are not based on the scientific method, but they agree nicely with your beliefs, so you promote them as fact.
I don't share your beliefs, and I don't need to be converted to your religion. I don't need your religion. All the proselytizing in the world won't make me a vegan. You use circular logic to justify your position, yet it all comes back to the same thing; "We're right and you're wrong, because we say so."
Why do you feel you must continue to try to convert everyone to believe what you believe?
I'm not hostile towards you. I just think you're goofy. And pretty arrogant.
I'm not suggesting you must agree with me, only that you consider the possibility that you might be completely wrong. Has that though never crossed your mind?
The only open hostility I see here is vegans calling non-believers 'murderers and criminals.'
Since the beginning of time there were great minds like Leonardo Da Vinci, Plato, Socrates, Albert Einstein, Lao Tzu and many others who tried to convey the message that eating animals (our own kind) is not appropriate for humans and is not even healthy. But "you, much like some religious zealots, insist that your way is the only true way." Why kill if it is proven that we are not omnivorous. We feed cows meat now and because they can survive on it, soon we will forget that they are herbivorous.
Trying to convert someone with out-and-out absurdity won't work. Humans aren't omnivores? Do you really believe that? Are you really that desperate?
Every movement towards a less violent society started with a few. These few were often times ridiculed, persecuted and even killed. The mass always had a hard time to change and always had ‘leaders’ who kept singing the same old songs that were pleasant to their ears. “Nothing will benefit human health and increase the chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet.” ― Albert Einstein
I don't like vegan chicks because they won't swallow.
I'm surprised that anyone who dares to disagree with this writer is termed - in so many words - a "religious terrorist." Seems a bit dramatic, not to mention, offensive. Also, the leap from vegan to "religious terrorist" is especially bizarre and most likely the creativity engendered by the mind of a very angry, disturbed person.
The Vegans are at it again.
Their philosophy:
"We are righter than you. We are smarter than you. We are more moral and ethical than you.
Our way is the only way. You must change your belief system to align with our belief system, because you are wrong and we are right."
Sounds a lot like religious terrorism, doesn't it?
Wow, stereotype much, Elrond?
Sorry, not buying it. Her words: "So by the time I actually shoot something, I’ve developed a deep connection to the species and to the land." I'm not sure how shooting an animal to death could be considered a deep connection to it. seems cowardly somehow.
Seems no more cowardly to me than passing judgement about an entire group of people or an activity that you clearly know nothing about while hiding behind the anonymity of the internet.
And your real name would be "Guest"? I have the right to express my opinion on a comments board; there's nothing cowardly about it at all. And I do know hunters, so your comment is inaccurate. Perhaps you should think a bit before you pop off in a post.
Guest, I would like to make peace... Can I come up on air?
Also, anonymous Guest, I'm not sure why you're accusing me of not knowing anything about a certain group of people. I'm making a statement about this particular writer, this particular hunter.
A delayed response, but a response none-the-less. When you participate in a hunt, the trek involved, and to become part of the surrounding, you DO develop a connection with the land. You have to remain quiet, take in the hints from where the animal may be, and you learn to understand more about the environment than you did before. It is cowardly to hunt? It seems slightly ironic given the idea that you are a human, who has evolved from an earlier species, who has had an early ancestor hunt prior in existence. I'm sorry if you do not agree, but here is my opinion.
(the real one)
Again? Copying my name, and posting some so rude in my stead? Sigh.
Don't bother reporting. Trolls are everywhere on the internet these days. It's sad to see such a low level of human life.
Again, I only wish for peace and love in this discussion! But the troll is right in one sense - I'm sorry if I offend anyone with my opinions; however, this IS the opinion section.
Guess what? You think you can anonymously post, but, remember your user name is linked to your email address. I'm sure CNN will be interested in knowing about your activities. Remember, there is no anonymity on the Web. Can't wait to report you to the moderators.
I don't understand..? Perhaps, I don't want to.
The Netherlands study, entitled “Climate Benefits of Changing Diet,” analyzed the entire chain of animal-raising activities from field to fork. It calculated the monetary cost of halting climate change, which was defined as stabilizing atmospheric CO2 at the level of 450 parts per million. The report concluded that US$20 trillion, or 50 percent of a total US$40 trillion estimated cost, could be saved from the global shift to a low-meat diet. Going even further, the researchers found that a completely vegan diet with no animal products would save an enormous 80% by 2050. What’s more, another benefit was discovered. Because plant-based diets produce much more food for humans than meat and dairy-based diets, some of the land not used to grow livestock could be turned back into carbon-absorbing forests, which are known to help reduce CO2 emissions.
Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance
You should move there then.
Primal4Life, I don't understand your hostility about all this. She's just expressing differing opinions and backing it up with some interesting information. I learned something from reading your posts and I'm learning something from reading Lena's. It's good to keep an open mind for both sides, and not stoop to insults.
I don't think Primal4life stoops to insults, he raises himself to them
I love knowing that I live rent free in sam stones mind, tiny as it is.
LMFAO!!!!!!
I think everybody's in the anger stage at the moment, LOL. Interesting study; thanks for posting the information. I'm trying to absorb information from everyone ... I think there are a lot of ethical hunters who take no pleasure in killing, but simply are doing it to get food on the table. And vegans are so passionate about their feelings, yet if you believe in animal advocacy, it's difficult not to be passionate. I just think we can all try to learn from each other here somehow. I appreciate research and posts about studies - always interesting.
We're talking about hunting, not raising livestock. Not one little iota of the data you posted is relevant to the carbon footprint of wild animals living on untended land that are killed on an individual basis. Those animals did not have massive carbon footprints, they had *exactly* the carbon footprint that they were supposed to have. Not to mention that without some population control, many game species DO have negative impacts on their environments. Short-sighted folks a long time ago wiped out way too many of the predators of these game species so without a check of some kind they'll run wild. Turn your faux indignation towards the tens of thousands of wild horses that are slaughtered every year if you want to weigh in on something.
Red Herrings
Preaching
Judgement
Sanctimony
i'm glad you actually recognize that killing horses is murder. I guess you love them more than other animals, maybe because you know them better, like your dog. The reason why hunting is not good of a solution is because it kills, teaches how to kill and when most of animals in the wild will be killed, humans will start to raise them again. if humans kill 60 billion animals each year, do you think there won't be any environmental impact when removing 60 billion animals from the wild or even half? How long will it take your group of people with a similar activity to kill them all? Guest, either you are paid to talk these things or...... it's sad
if we were all atheists this wouldn't be happening
You really need to "bone up" on your scriptures, Lena, because what you said is simply and emphatically not true. That leaves one of two possible conclusions – either 1) you are so ignorant of the scriptures that you don't know this isn't true, or 2) what you posted was an out-and-out lie.
HINT: Read the third chapter of Leviticus and then get back to us.
Then what is the Truth?
i think the more people were eating animals, the more they thought God enjoys the smell of it (just like them). According to the bible, originally, we were eating ' every seed-bearing plant and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. "
when we lost contact with God, we did all kinds of things that brought bad luck to us. I assume, otherwise we might have paradise on Earth....
Or it might have nothing to do with any sort of religion and more to do with the fact that humans are an omnivorous species of ape with enough self-awareness to effect some control of what we eat.
one of the latest discoveries humans made is that cows are also omnivorous: http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/nature/meat-back-on-menu-for-animal-feed-20-years-after-bse-crisis-2072188.html
"I am full of the burnt offering of rams and the fat of fed beasts. I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of goats...Bring no more vain offerings... When you spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes though you make many prayers, and I will not hear you. For your hands are full of blood..." – (Isaiah 1:11-15)
Isaiah 65:25
"The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but dust will be the serpent's food. They will neither hunt nor destroy on all my holy mountain," says the LORD.
good diets can be vegan, poor diets can be vegan
good diets can include meat, poor diets can include meat
it is all up to the individual
PLUTARCH:
"Can you really ask what reason Pythagoras had for abstinence from flesh? For my part I rather wonder both by what accident and in what state of mind the first man touched his mouth to gore and brought his lips to the flesh of a dead creature, set forth tables of dead, stale bodies, and ventured to call food and nourishment the parts that has a little before bellowed and cried, moved and lived. How could eyes endure the slaughter when throats were slit and hides flayed and limbs torn from limb"
How could his nose endure the stench? How was it that the pollution did not turn away his taste, which made contact with sores of others and sucked juices and serums from mortal wounds? It is certainly not lions or wolves that we eat out of self-defense; on the contrary, we ignore these and slaughter harmless, tame creatures without stings or teeth to harm us. For the sake of a little flesh we deprive them of sun, of light, of the duration of life to which they are entitled by birth and being."
please don't remove again... it was written by Plutarch and not me.... the truth always hurts
The truth is God ended the animal sacrifices and sacrificed a man once for all, as predicted. Hebrews 10:8-12 Above, saying Sacrifices and offerings and burnt-offerings and sacrifices (of animals) for sin thou willedst not, neither tookest pleasure in (which are offered according to the Mosaic law); 9 then he said, Lo, I (Jesus Christ) come to do thy will. He takes away the first (sacrifice system) that he may establish the second; 10 by which will (His will) we have been sanctified (made holy) through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every (Jewish cf. the context) priest stands daily ministering, and offering often the same sacrifices (animal sacrifices), which can never take away sins. 12 But *he*, (Jesus Christ) having offered one sacrifice for sins, sat down in perpetuity at [the] right hand of God, (job complete)... ... One sacrifice for sins, forever. That's the truth at no cost to you.
and then people will say lions and wolves hunt,... but the thing is most hunters kill the strongest and healthiest of the herd ,the ones needed to breed. ,just trophy hunting for the rack. while animals like lions and wolves, the true hunters who go after their prey and not hide in a tree with a gun, usually go after sick, weak animals and getting rid of the unfit animals.. so nature will take it course of the survival of the strongest and fittest as it is meant to be.
Wolves and lions use the tools nature gave them–their speed, strength, claws and teeth. Nature gave humans tools too–opposable thumbs, intelligence and cunning. Why should we not be allowed to use what nature provided us to gain an advantage over the prey?
Not even 10% of hunters take bucks with the largest racks. A large racked animal doesn't breed any better or worse than a small racked animal.
A larger animal that has lived a life span long enough to develop a full set of antlers implies a more robust physiology which is then passed on to his offspring. I'm not saying all hunters are concerned about the size of antlers, but the ones I know certainly are interested in killing these "prize animals."
CNN employees! If you followed this conversation, what I was supposed to do? Wait for you to post all these facts and information? Even if you are not vegans, why not challenge your doctors to take about 50 vegans and 50 meat eaters and check their health (I would list all the tests they can do if I knew you are reading this.)? Why not tell people about the veganism among philosophers and scientists? Why not tell people what vegans eat and why they did it? Why not find people who healed themselves from cancer, diabetes, Crohn’s diseases and tell their stories? Why not ask your doctors to research why vegan diet heals and, obviously, the meat-diet makes one sick in a long run? Why not tell people about the environmental impact of Livestock Industry? Why not check why doctors do not advise cancer patients to eat animal products? Why not write about milk which is designed for babies and it has a lot of hormones to make the baby grow faster. (just check why vegans don’t drink milk and ask your doctors to do more research on it). Why our Livestock Industry is paying the pharmaceutical companies and why are they the ones who finance the campaigns that advertise milk and meat? There is so much to talk about especially now when so many people are turning vegan and many will benefit so much from it.
While I can appreciate your individual decision to be vegan and express your comments here, this is not "Vegan National News" aka VNN. This site has and hopefully will continue to present articles on food and food related topics, all food, not just the food you think we should be eating. I am sure there are many other websites you can go to that will focus on your obsession with like minded people...
As proven to all by your many inaccurate posts, you have nothing to say that matters.
which one is inaccurate?
primal: and you are nothing but a blowhard. bark, little doggie
I wonder if I care that you think that? Let's check it out.
Nope, not a bit.
NEXT!
back atcha, big mouth
hey Primal, i asked you a question.... can I ask you something else?
I wish everyone who joined the conversation happiness and all the best! Love and peace!!!!! :)
No you don't, you wish everyone who joined the conversation would abandon their free will and live their lives according to your choices.
You're a very clear example of why so many people react so negatively to the idea of a vegetarian diet. It's not so much the idea that's offensive, it's the way you go about telling them that their values are wrong and yours are right when you have absolutely no moral standing to make such a judgement. Just be a personal example and you'll gain more influence than you ever will with all this preaching.
you need to read about biodynamic agriculture...
your love affair with insulin is misguided indeed...
the corn based system you are so proud of is killing not just the america, but the world...
it saddens me that you are so unaware of evolution and how it effects us today...
as a primal eater, i would put my cholesterol levels up against yours and back it up with every thing i own...
the diseases of the autoimmune ilk that you spoke of are prevalent BECAUSE of the diet high in carbs (upside down) and the stresses it puts on our broken immune systems...
true "meat eaters" meaning those that eat primaly suffer FAR FAR less from the maladies related to inflamation and immune disorders than vegans...
a human being can live without any carbs at all... they cannot live without protien. and while many civilizations have lived on entirely carcal diets, not a one has ever survived on the slave food you laud.
again, revisit your high school science books and read up on evolution... that is, if you are indeed out of high school.
lena... would you like to discuss the fact that most hard and soft cell tumors can only consume glycogen? your vegan "diet" is pouring plantfood on the weeds while it hammers your immune system into a limp piece of endive...
we could also go on forever about the effects of high carb diets on our mitochondria... lets just say it aint good...
GROK ON!
"Cancer cells thrive in an acid environment. A meat-based diet is acidic" http://theveganfattie.blogspot.ca/
you will have to do more research on this topic. i put some links below. We should prevent soft cell tumours in the first place.
we don't need the protein, we need the amino-acids from the protein. All plant-based foods are protein. The enzymes in plant-based foods is protein, and is necessary for the body. Animal products do not come with enzymes and deprive our body of enzymes, that's why so many people suffer now from allergies and other health problems. We also eat too much dead protein from animal products and this deteriorates our digestive system. Please check these facts, there is plenty of info on that. Can you send the link please were a study was done saying that meat-eaters are healthier? I found that many studies were done on Seventh-day Adventists which concluded that they are much healthier than meat-eaters.
"All plant based foods are protein." Really? Where did you come up with that?
"Animal products do not come with enzymes?" Really? Where did you come up with that?
You could not be more wrong with two statements you made if you said the czar still rules Russia and most birds don't fly.
You may be acquainted with some of the great philosophers' works, but let me remind you of something that Abraham Lincoln said – "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
I'm telling you right now, lady, you really should have taken that quote to heart before you made those two statements.
please research more, i don't have time.. digestive enzymes are also protein and they are destroyed when food is processed.... i just put some links, but you can trace the actual research papers...
John A. McDougall, M.D.:
Many people believe than animal foods contain protein that is superior in quality to the protein found in plants. This is a misconception dating back to 1914, when Osborn and Mendel studied the protein requirements of laboratory rats.[11]... Based on these early rat experiments the amino acid pattern found in animal products was declared to be the standard by which to compare the amino acid pattern of vegetable foods. According to this concept, wheat and rice were declared deficient in lysine, and corn was deficient in tryptophan. It has since been shown that the initial premise that animal products supplied the most ideal protein pattern for humans, as it did for rats, was incorrect.... From the chart, it is clear that even single vegetable foods contain more than enough of all amino acids essential for humans.... Furthermore, many investigators have found no improvement by mixing plant foods or supplementing them with amino acid mixtures to make the combined amino acid pattern look more like that of flesh, milk, or eggs.[35-44] ... People have actually lived for long periods of time in excellent health by satisfying their entire nutritional needs with potatoes and water alone.[33] ... Nature has designed vegetable foods to be complete. If people living before the age of modern dietetics had had to worry about achieving the correct protein combinations in their diets, our species would not have survived for these millions of years.10
http://www.anticancerinfo.co.uk/enzymes.html
http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/protein.htm
http://www.naturalnews.com/026909_enzymes_digestive_health.html
http://www.rawbc.org/articles/enzymes_protein.html
this article has links to
we need the amino-acids, not the protein. Protein is the middle man that our body needs to break down to remove the amino acids. The harder the protein is to digest (especially animal protein), the more acid and enzymes we need to digest them. When the body is acidic (all animal protein is acidic), all kinds of health issues start developing over time. http://www.balance-ph-diet.com/
http://wandahamilton50.com/top-10-acid-alkaline-food-myths-and-facts-you-need-to-know/
Russian hematologists found out that acidic food changes the red blood cells electrical charge from negative to positive and they start clotting to each other. This is done with the help of Here are some health related issues: http://quizlet.com/2162581/disorders-of-the-red-blood-cells-and-coagulation-disorders-flash-cards/ this is very easy to proof if a hematologyst will compare the blood of vegans verses meat-eaters http://www.dolmaonline.com/sdp/1078343/4/pd-5194846/7357396-2097690/MDI_One_Drop_of_Blood_Detector_Light-weight_high-s.html
cancer cells develop in a non-oxygenated environment, when red blood cells clot and can't bring enough oxygen and nutrients to the cells – a cell can be healthy only when it has adequate oxygen and blood. "Cancer begins with damaged genes. Initiation occurs when the DNA in a normal cell is damaged. Turn cancer off by avoiding animal protein; this means avoiding meat, eggs, dairy and fish (the omega oils are destroyed in fish while cooking)"
http://www.stopcancer.com/ottolecture.htm
epidemic.http://www.holisticlocal.com/articles/view/800/Cancer-Turn+It+On+Or+or+Turn+It+Off
"Meat protein is difficult to digest and requires a lot of digestive enzymes: http://pathology.jhu.edu/pc/news2008.php
Lena,
If you don't get anything else out of all this, try to get this – every enzyme is a protein. Regardless of what the enzyme does, where it comes from, or where it goes, it's a protein. And while we're on the subject of proteins . . . you typically don't find just a bunch of 'loose' amino acids "laying around" in any food product – either plant or animal in origin. So you see, you pretty much have to eat PROTEIN to get to the AMINO ACIDS.
You know, I can find nutrition and biochemical textbooks to refute nearly everything you've said here, but – just to put it bluntly – you're not worth the effort. You talk about having an "open mind", but you are one of, if not THE, most closed-minded person who has responded in this entire string of almost 1400 comments as I type this.
I have more physiological chemistry and biochemistry than you will ever dream of taking – I won't say 'could' take, because I don't know you and won't resort to that kind of personal attack. However, some of your sources are pure quackery, but you're so blinded by what YOU want that you can't see that.
how come after so many year on a vegan diet i'm still alive and my immune system is stronger than ever? i don't take any suplements. I really want to know. I would even be happy to send you a picture of me and my children so you can see that we are very ok, physically and mentally. Please explain.
i also said that enzymes are protein and they are killed during cooking. Fruits and Vegetables are high in Enzymes:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/320914-fruits-vegetables-high-in-enzymes/
please try to read everything, I also said that our digestive system has to break down the protein to remove the amino-acids. The harder the protein is to break down, the more damage we do to our digestive organs and it also makes the body acidic. Usually, the protein that is harder to digest does not come with enzymes. The pancreas of a diabetic can start working better in a week if on a vegan diet. Please try if you are a doctor and know anyone with diabetes. Here is a good way to plan a vegan diet: http://www.21daykickstart.org/
I want to say that we need more research on a vegan diet and why a human body can survive on it if there is so much contradiction
I asked earlier, but it may be so far down you haven't seen it – What kind of starches do you eat? Do you eat any pasta at all?
here is a good documentary that shows how all kinds of diabetes were healed in only a month on a plant based diet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFXMRbV6UPM If you don't believe, pursue your colleges to research further.
not much at all and I eat very little, i don't eat tofu or soy milk anymore. I can't eat overly processed foods, I feel how it dries my body, not used to it animore. My diet is mostly raw, but i eat quinoa, hemp, flax seeds and things like that. I don't eat rice and I eat only a small amount of what I used to eat. I guess I use foods packed with nutrients and my body gets everything fast and with no much energy that's why I don't need to eat much and i don't loose weight. Not too many people believe I have grown up children. I do a lot of mental (my profession requires it) and physical work. I don't have time for sports, and yet I'm in shape.
I'm just trying to say that no one will ever think that I'm on such diet
Outstanding post. I'm with ya 100%. Tired many things including the rave diet, which is essentially vegetarian, and it wasn't until the Primal Blueprint that things began to go my way. I dropped 45 pounds, without effort, my blood work returned to normal as well as my BP. This allowed me to leave the meds behind and my doctor had no problem taking me off of them. I have to energy of my early 20's.
I feel so good now I wish I had known about this years ago.
Ugh, are you this sanctimonius in real life? If you're half as insufferable offline as you are here, I don't know how anyone could stand you. Do you preach at people constantly? Come up for air!
I would come up for air, why not.
lena is so far out in left field on so many issues, i just had to respond. there is strong evidence backed by leading anthrpologists that the beginning of successful hunting and meat eating lead directly to the fairly rapid development of the hominid brain leading to our present state of brain development. the energy to facilitate brain development just was not there with a plant diet. over half of the land on this planet cannot be farmed for crops because of limitations due to topography, water availability or suboptimal soils. what can be grown on this land are grass fed cattle or wild animals. wild meat contains essentil fatty acids that tame meat and vegetables just cannot supply, vegan diets can cause deficiencies of many things, most notable being vitamins B12, K and D and iron . the most important of these is B12. in developing infants a deficiency of B 12 can cause neural tube defects – serious central nervous system abnormalities. in growing children especially in the first 2 or 3 years of life when brain development is most rapid, B 12 deficiency causes problems with decreased myelin formation and with the formation of the millions of synapses necessary for maximum brain development.. in vegan children this results in poorer cognitive abilities compared with other children.
vegans/vegetarians like to tout there superiority morally over those of us who eat meat, especially those of us who hunt our own. i like to point out to them that their huge fields of lettuce and broccoli have resulted in the deaths of entire ecosystems to create those fields. their response is usually that the animals and insects on that land just move next door when replaced by non-wild vegetables. they do not realize, as do those of us who have truly studied wildlife as part of our hunting tradition, that every acre of land, espacially in its natural state, has a carrying capacity. only so many organisms, plant and animal, can inhabit and survive on each piece of land. therefore,no one, not even a vegan can eat and live without sacrificing some other life form. what is better? someone who hunts, removes a few free healthy animals every year, leaving behind a healthy population in balance with what the land can provide. or a vegan or vegetarian who completely changes nature and causes the demise of virtually evey living thing inhabiting that piece of land.
here is some info about the essential fatty acids and how they are destroyed with cooking and processing and how nuts and seeds can be a better sources (again, please do more research) http://www.electroherbalism.com/Naturopathy/Therapies/Diet/FatsandOils/index.htm As for what anthropologists concluded, it is just a theory and because we don't know for sure, we can't say there couldn't have been a better way for us to evolve. I don't know if you believe in God, but all the scriptures tell us that humans were supposed to eat plant-based foods. check Genesis 1:29 and wonder why Buddha didn't let his disciples to eat meat (it turns out their brain connection is much better than ours): http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/mindfulness-meditation-improves-connections-in-the-brain-201104082253
We present a lot of opinions from a lot of people - hunters, vegans, farmers, chefs, activists. They'll all bring their own point of view to it. Just because we're presenting one side of an argument at some point doesn't mean we've neglected the other.
Conversation and differing viewpoints are a *good* thing.
Are you a cnn employee? you remember too much for some reason....
what about BBC?
This is just really too low - nobody should take another's online ID. Immature, childish, unreal. Lena, the real Lena, sorry for the trolls. There are good folks out there too. Good for you for believing in yourself - ignore the trolls; they're like little kids, having tantrums if someone disagrees with them.
"Pathetic" strong white knight, you phaggot.
jeepbrah, it's funny that you think you can hide behind anonymity. Nothing on the 'Net is anonymous. If I report you to the CNN moderators, your post is linked to your email address ... so guess what? No anonymity for you to hide behind.
sorry Pathetic, the 'lions' started to roar.... :)
i believe the first "tantrum" we witnessed in this thread was lena's up on top...
it wasn't a tantrum actually, I just feel so much pain for the animals and of course I wanted to put as many facts as possible that not too many people know of.... plus, I always wonder why people don't want to change when they can be healthier and not be involved in the causing of so much suffering... I learned a few things though... (it was my first time to participate in such a discussion and i hope is the last :) ) Peace and love to all!!!!!
you are what you eat. I will never eat flesh....
when one says, "you are what you eat" and then says "i would never eat flesh"
what is one trying to say? that they are a vegetable... maybe a bean... or some sorghum...
the two statements should probably not been linked together in such a way...
you are what you eat... i am flesh and bone...
(real Lena) someone took my name to post his comment... if you can only see how low of a human being you are... I guess this is my last post. i just hope you are not a cnn employee...
'This is dreadful! Not the suffering and death of the animals, but that people suppress in themselves, unnecessarily, the highest spiritual capacity – that of sympathy and pity towards living creatures... " Leo Tolstoy (Tolstoy was introduced and became a vegetarian, all on the same day.) http://veg.ca/content/view/525/113/
Lena, could you be quiet already?
There is a saying annoying opinion-preachers like you should digest: "I'll eat my opinion, you can eat yours."
You give vegans/vegetarians/whatever a bad wrap. You denounce the morals of those who eat meat by pushing your own ideals forward.
Everybody pushes their ideals; what's the big deal? She has a right to her opinion, as does everyone else on this board.
Vegan for Life, if someone didn't push their ideas, we would still have slavery and guillotine... Let the civilization progress; don't drag it behind by shutting up people
Too bad what you preach is actually backwards and makes people sick in the long run. Anybody that tells anyone to eat grains is lying to them and pointing them to a harmful decision. The fact you think otherwise makes it even worse.
You really should just be a vegan and keep your ignorant pie hole shut about it.
Shoulder update – just checked it out and it's marinating perfectly. Post you email so I can send you pictures of it.
Socrates: Would this habit of eating animals not require that we slaughter animals that we knew as individuals, and in whose eyes we could gaze and see ourselves reflected, only a few hours before our meal?
Glaucon: This habit would require that of us.
Socrates: Wouldn't this [knowledge of our role in turning a being into a thing] hinder us in achieving happiness?
Glaucon: It could so hinder us in our quest for happiness.
Socrates: And, if we pursue this way of living, will we not have need to visit the doctor more often?
Glaucon: We would have such need.
Socrates: If we pursue our habit of eating animals, and if our neighbor follows a similar path, will we not have need to go to war against our neighbor to secure greater pasturage, because ours will not be enough to sustain us, and our neighbor will have a similar need to wage war on us for the same reason?
Glaucon: We would be so compelled.
Socrates: Would not these facts prevent us from achieving happiness, and therefore the conditions necessary to the building of a just society, if we pursue a desire to eat animals?
Glaucon: Yes, they would so prevent us.
me thinks though doth protest too much...
and the quotes do you nothing at all...
it is like arguing with a child...
HARHARR.... one nation – under ... ecucated.
Militant vegans make every other group of weirdos look intelligent. Everytime.
"ecucated"?
i'm sure matt that you are so educated that there is no room for more.... you must be perfect...
This coming from the most closed minded person in this discussion. You're such a hypocrite lena.
Agreed! There is simply no doubt about.
Good lands, ONTHunter, cut her some slack. Lena has a right to express her opinions and she's obviously researched her topics. I know feelings run high about these topics, but name calling and finger pointing aren't going to help us learn from each other. I'm not a hunter, but you've made some valid points for hunting, while Lena's made some valid points for the vegan lifestyle. We should all lighten up a bit here.
@ Invasive Species
You, too, have some very valid points.
"Lena", "Mike", "Peteyroo" and a couple of others here obviously – in their own minds – form the collective 'conscience' for the U.S. Since they are omniscient – again, in their own minds – they know better than anybody else what is "ethical" and what is "unethical" and have made a habit of telling us that in this string. "To each his own" and "live and let live" are foreign concepts to them.
And vegans wonder why they get a "bad name". When one constantly 'forces' their beliefs on others who don't share those same beliefs, they don't deserve any "slack".
@What? That, by the way, is a great name to post with! And I like your post, thank you. But, I think it's both sides. People who hunt and eat meat can be quite passionate (and sometimes rude) about their beliefs too. I think for the vegans, they are so passionate about animal welfare (which is a great thing), that it's difficult for them to understand how anyone can appear to be anti-animal welfare. It's like the pro-lifers - if you believe a terrible wrong is being perpetrated, it's difficult not to preach and shout about it. And I'm not saying hunters are in any way anti-animal welfare, but from a vegan standpoint, it can seem so. You truly get dogmatic people on both sides. Probably none of us has the answers, but, by golly, we each think we do, LOL. And I get upset when I see people stereotyping each other: "all hunters are dumb rednecks," "all vegans are nuts." That's a shame and leads nowhere.
@InvasiveSpecies...I will not cut Lena any slack. I have no problem with people expressing an opinion and offering alternative thoughts. In fact, I encourage it and listen with open ears and an open mind. However, what I do not stand for is other people telling me I am barbaric, inhumane, mentally inferior etc. She has dug herself a trench with her double speak, now she can claw her way out.
I am not saying i'm perfect and whenever I hear a message, I always check if the messanger is right or will i improve if i change.... I don't close my ears just because i think i'm right and i know everyting.
here is a good example of what open mindness means 'Tolstoy was introduced and became a vegetarian, all on the same day. With only one conversation.
It must take a special kind of intelligence to change one's life so suddenly. The confrontation and reversal of personal hypocrisies can be harrowing, especially if the information is coming from someone who is less famous, of lower status, and hitherto unknown. Yet, Leo Nikolaevich Tolstoy was one such man with proven ability to hear an argument, accept it, and change his entire life to meet his new knowledge. Instantly. '
Matt, any zealot, be they a vegan, or, indeed, a hunter, can make their "home team" look bad. Militant hunters can be just as offensive as any other such group.
Well, this dang post refuses to land in the right spot! Sorry for the duplication, all.
Matt, any zealot, be they a vegan, or, indeed, a hunter, can make their "home team" look bad. Militant hunters can be just as offensive as any other such group.
Todd, you are in error.
"Todd
Hunting has pretty much no validity as a realistic food source. According to Fish and Game, the average success rate for deer hunters is around 25%. That's for ONE animal, in an entire season. Once you've added up the cost of weapon, ammunition, supplies, clothing, permits...and taken into account the fairly low likelihood you'll actually bag anything? Yeah. It's silly to think hunting could supply the bulk of anyone's diet. Hunting is a sporting pursuit, Once you've added up the cost of weapon, ammunition, supplies, clothing, permits.
Point 1)According to Fish and Game, the average success rate for deer hunters is around 25% First,This will vary widely depending upon where you hunt. second, Every hunter I know has a much higher success rate. Your numbers include every weekend warrior who picks up a weapon for the opening day of deer gun season each year, and does no other hunting activity any other time. I would not expect much success from them. Real hunter practice year round, do the leg work, scout the trails, and learn everything they can about the prey, the terrain, the food sources, ect. Many hunters are successful enough, to donate meat to the Hunters Against Hunger program, and food pantries.
And this part" Once you've added up the cost of weapon, ammunition, supplies, clothing, permits." Some of this is a real cost, some is not. I still carry the shotgun my Grand Father carried. I have no need of a new one each hunting season. Nor does anyone else. Permits do cost money, and supplies cost about the same if I am eating at home or in the field, and clothing lasts for many seasons. My hunting coat is more than 15 years old.
Now the big one, AMMO! I pay more than $3 DOLLARS for one sabot round for my 12ga. shotgun. I know others pay less, but I only use the good stuff. and that breaks down to almost 35cent per pound on an average 100 pounds of meat. I could probably get my cost per pound down to 25 cents, if I would use less accurate ammo. Now, keep in mind, my cost could DOUBLE if I needed TWO rounds, but most times ONE is all I need.
"just be honest about it" I could not be more honest than hunting. There is no sliding scale, no affirmative action, no work quotas, no intermediaries. Just my effort, my skills, my knowledge, and my aim. And I feed my family (and others) with the results. I am a HUNTER, and damn proud of it.
'A global shift towards a vegan diet is vital to save the world from hunger, fuel poverty and the worst impacts of climate change' – http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jun/02/un-report-meat-free-diet
LMAO absolute rubbish. Not a shred of truth to that at all. It cracks me up that you think you are more evolved and now smarter than mother nature. It's actually pathetic, and makes you far more arrogant than I have even been. But whatever, do what you must, all the time knowing you will never succeed.
i can't believe that there are people thinking that teaching our children and psychos how to shoot is an ok idea. Dear, you might be 'accidentally' mistaken for a dear, or someone's girlfriend will be accidentally 'shot' because she 'accidentally' doesn't love the shooter anymore... Don't put evil thoughts and teach evil things our next generation. Didn't you have enough of wars, don't we still enough bloodsuckers who enjoy attacking and killing others in wars pretending it's in the name of their country and their family.... If you were a normal human being, you would think 'how come there are more and more vegans' and how can they survive if it goes against what most people think. Let me try and see – trust me, you won't die. Teach your children something beautiful. Bring them to a slaughterhouse and ask if they want a plate of vegan food or flesh.... Unless you tell them that it is the only way they can survive and brainwash them as someone else brainwashed you, they will never eat meat.
"If I were normal..."
Honey, you a an absolute loon. Bat crap crazy in fact. You are not normal, and therefor have no business whatsoever deeming what is, and what is not normal. Your holier than thou attitude is as pathetic as it gets. You have no concept of freedom whatsoever. You have a very narrow and closed mind. You let your false sense of morality be your guide and you willingly attempt to foist those misguided beliefs on others. Good people, do not do those things, period. You are not good people, end of story.
Can't wait to cook the 15 pound beef shoulder tomorrow in your honor, of yes, it will be dedicated to you. 9 hours of slow roasted perfection, served to people who will leave with big fat smiles on their faces.
So a gun is going to turn an otherwise mentally stable, non violent person into a blood thirsty wife shooting psychopath?? Thats like saying that cars cause drunk drivers. Studies have shown that children that are involved in the outdoors (fishing and hunting) are 80% less likely to become criminals in adulthood.
I will teach my kids to respect the land that we live on. They will know how to shoot, know what wild plants are edible, and they will know basic survival skills. Perhaps you should be teaching your kids about the outdoors and how mother nature works. Perhaps they will have a new found respect for the life they have been given. Teach them that the grocery store is not the only place to get food (plant or meat). I'm not saying take them hunting, its not for everybody. But a weekly hike in the woods can really bring peace to the soul, and coming home with a basket of fresh berries is a great treat.
Primal4live and oldhunter, i would never impose my believe if i didn’t feel sorry for the animals who can’t speak for themselves. I can’t believe we, humans, are still torturing and killing them. This is not what humane means (check the meaning of humane) It is also proven that anyone can benefit from a vegan diet. I said what you didn’t want to hear, and now is time for you to revenge. I won’t be surprised if you have the power to drag a few more people to join you….. maybe more than a few. If you and many like you were different, we wouldn’t have killed Jesus, or run after Buddha or prophet Mohamed and other great Beings. We really don’t want to hear anything that makes us change and loose our comfort. This is what we were meant to eat to have a peaceful planet and be healthy: Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. – Genesis 1:29
Look lena you are wrong, period. The ONLY reason you are vegan is to assuage your feelings of guilt, period. It is a proven fact that the hunter gather way of eating is superior to any other. It simply cannot be denied. You are not smarter than mother nature. You never will be smarter than mother nature. You are not evolving at all even though you think you are.
Thankfully at the end of the day you are nobody just like the rest of us and your views will NEVER become the way.
It is the position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada that appropriately planned vegetarian diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12826028
I wonder if all the vegans freaking out about killing deer realize how many animals are killed to protect and harvest the soybean crops that their tofu comes from...
Deer population management goes hand-in-hand with crop farming.
80% of soy and 60% of the grain is fed to animals. It takes about 14 kg of plant protein to produce 1 kg of meat. Growing so much grain requires a lot of tillable land and we use the one near forests (we actually cut the forests to expand our land). Of course the deers will come and eat your crop. A vegan diet requires 7 times less land than a meat-based diet.
http://veg.ca/content/view/133/111/ We souldn't destroy their habitat....
Oh lena... again you know nothing about farming or life in rural areas.
You are misled about how crop-farming actually works. You cannot grow the same crop year after year on the same ground, crops need to be rotated and summer-fallowed. Why not try actually talking to some farmers/ranchers, versus getting your information spoon-fed to you off of vegan websites?
First of all, buy grass-fed meat. Corn isn't good for the cows OR the people that eat them: Corn-fed cattle are more prone to infection and disease because they physiologically designed to eat grass, not grain; it's harder on their bodies to eat grain. Pasture-raised livestock are leaner and higher in Omega-3s; so the meat is healthier.
Also, crops destroy natural habitat for wild animals; where pasture land provides homes/habitat for wild animals. Pasture land is is typically land unfit for farming crops (too hilly, too sandy, too rocky, etc.)
Many smaller independant farmers also do crop-animal rotation. For example, when a fiend is cut, they'll move livestock onto it for a few months. If cattle moved on to stubble need supplemental feed, they get hay, most of which is cut from ditches and waterways, not "taking up land that could be used for crops". (And also helps with the county budget, as they don't have to mow the ditches as often.)
Cattle grazing is actually great for the soil.
And a diet that includes meat in moderation actually uses LESS LAND than a vegan diet.
First of all, buy grass-fed meat. Corn isn't good for the cows OR the people that eat them: Corn-fed cattle are more prone to infection and disease because they physiologically designed to eat grass, not grain; it's harder on their bodies to eat grain. Pasture-raised livestock are leaner and higher in Omega-3s; so the meat is healthier.
Also, crops destroy natural habitat for wild animals; where pasture land provides habitat for wild animals. Pasture land is is typically land unfit for farming crops.
Many smaller independant farmers also do crop-animal rotation. For example, when a field is cut, they'll move livestock onto it for a few months. If livestock moved on to stubble need supplemental feed, they get hay, most of which is cut from ditches and waterways, not "taking up land that could be used for crops".
Cattle grazing is actually great for the soil.
And you cannot grow the same crop year after year on the same ground, crops need to be rotated and summer-fallowed.
A diet that includes meat in moderation actually uses LESS LAND than a vegan diet.
Part of what you said is dead-on, but part of it is totally wrong.
Know a lot about ruminant nutrition, do you? And you've obviously spent many days in a hayfield – yes, hay"field" – putting up hay, haven't you?
Care to elaborate on what you think is "wrong" in my post?
Cows have no problem digesting grain – as long as they aren't given too much of it. "Eating grain" in-and-of-itself does not make them 'sick'.
Most hay is not produced from ditches and waterways. Some of it is, but it is a small percentage of the whole. Hay may be produced from forage pastures that are allowed to grow, ungrazed, for an extended period of time, but it is frequently produced from land set aside specifically for producing hay. Some of this land is unfit for growing other crops, while some of it would be quite well-suited to crop production.
And – before you ask – at one point during my years of working with hay I put up over 6000 bales in a period of 3 weeks (working 5 days a week), so, yes, I do know what I'm talking about.
Are you trying to say people don't cut & bale the ditches and waterways for animal food?
Yes, sometimes people do grow a field of hay. I didn't say nobody ever grew hay; I said there were other ways of getting it. And growing hay 1 year on a field will usually last the farmer a couple years, especially if they keep their livestock on pasture the majority of the time.
When we did occasionally grow a field specifically for cutting & baling, it was usually alfalfa and we didn't grow it every year. We got plenty of hay from the ditches and waterways along our cropland to feed/supplement our livestock and horses when they weren't pastured.
Not everybody has the "ditches" and "waterways" to produce even a quarter of the hay they need. Some don't have either of these. If you will re-read my response, I specifically stated that "yes, these are sources of hay, but only a small amount". Maybe more so where you live, but I will guarantee you that this is not the case in a large portion of the country.
Cows actually do have problems digesting grain (for what it's worth, so do humans!). Their digestive systems aren't equipped to do it. It doesn't make them immediately sickly, but it does cause problems (which would be more evident if the animals grew to older age). Just because something doesn't immediately poison you doesn't mean it's "good"; you can eat McDonalds every day and it won't make you immediately sick, but it will take it's toll over time.
And it increases rates of e.coli and perpetuates different e.coli strands in cattle. Even switching cattle to grass for a week before slaughtering them for food significantly reduces the e.coli in their systems.
Ditches? Forgive my ignorance, but I doubt that's required to grow hay. My family does a crop rotation every year on our field. This year it is peanuts. Last year corn. A couple of years before that, we grew hay. The field did not have a ditch surrounding it, or trenches between rows of crops. The amount of earth we had to take away for peanuts is enormous, but we only lightly tilled the soil for clay. While it was growing, cattle in the neighboring field would often stick their heads between gaps in the fence to munch on the growing hay.
A lot of other farmers in my area grew hay, and none of them use this ditch method you're talking about. With the type of grass a typical bale of hay is, I doubt it would grow well with too much water.
AJ
I think you're searching for the term "corn," not grain. Ruminants cannot live on grain alone, but then again, neither can people. But both of our biochemistries require metabolites and nutritions only grains can give us. Thankfully, our digestion process is less complex. Corn doesn't provide much nutritional value to us or cattle, and too much can upset digestion and overall health.
the main cause of worldwide land degradation is over-grazing. Land degradation leads to loss of biodiversity:
http://www.fao.org/fileadmin/templates/lead/pdf/e-conf_05-06_background.pdf
So we should kill and eat more animals to prevent this bio-disaster from happening? I'm in!!!
how much is moderation? if we would free up the land from raising livestock and grow feed for them (a vegan uses 7 times less land....) we would be able to affort to rotate our crop and also let our land rest and regain its nutrients naturally.
It doesn't matter, either we buy the meat or it will just be exported to someone who will. Your opinion doesn't run the country, the all mighty dollar does.
don't raise, don't kill, don't export.... i'm sure all the people in poor countries don't need your meat.... They need some rice or corn or vegetables that they can get easily if meat eaters wouldn't eat for 10.
OK so the farmers who have raised cattle, pigs, chickens, etc for generations are supposed to pack it in and get an office job? And don't say they can start growing crops on their land, because farms that are used for raising animals for slaughter are on average 20% of the size of a crop farm. How are they supposed to make a living?
Great post! Most people will not admit this but sportsman are the number 1 source of funding for wildlife and habitat preservation. Through the The self imposed taxes on hunting, fishing and firearms to joining conservation organization like Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation and Ducks Unlimited Sportsman contribute billions of dollars a year. This money goes to preserve land that benefits all species not just hunt able game. The Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation has saved millions of acres forever in purchase and land trusts and has reintroduced elk back into areas where they were irradiated hundreds of years ago. Keep up the good work and Good Hunting
This article is a cute little fantasy, but hunting is not a remotely viable food source for a large percentage of the population, nor is it ethical in any way.
Running them over at night with a car is more ethical? Poisoning them is more ethical? Shooting them with birth control is more ethical? I guess you're not a farmer, either.
why run them over, poison them, shoot them with birth control or hunt them. LEAVE THEM ALONE!!!! just stay away from their flesh... it's no different than yours, why eat it? Is it just because you learned from your ancestors?
lena, you obviously have zero experience with how it really is to live in rural areas with deer.
People don't hit deer with their cars on purpose, it isn't a fun experience hitting a deer! People hit deer because deer run out in front of them on the highway.
Leaving deer alone would have a huge negative impact on food prices. Deer already do OVER $100 MILLION worth of damage to crops each year; if the population was left unchecked, that number would be significantly higher.
Leaving deer alone would cause them be overpopulation and to die out due to starvation and disease, now THAT is a horrible way to die. And wasteful.
Not to mention it can also spread diseases for people and their pets; deer ticks spread Lyme disease and more deer means more deer ticks.
lena.... the analogies you keep using are getting sicker and sicker.
Nature is perfect; it keeps everything in balance as long as humans don't interfere
v_1, don't read them ;)
lena, you're posting on the internet, so you obviously have electricity. And probably a house/apartment. Perhaps a car. You eat food grown from crops. Etc.
Modern civilization "interferes", period. You are part of that. To "not interfere" is impossible, and to ignore our interference is irresponsible. Nature's way of controlling animal population is with predators; and when predators have been pushed out by humans, we need to do something about that. Re-introducing predators isn't feasible (expensive, establishing populations is difficult, many re-introduced and re-located animals die within the first couple months, etc.), nor do people in suburbia want mountain lions wandering through their backyard.
at least we should interfere as little as possible.... why destroy it so much when we can do something else instead. Of course we can't live in a city without electricity, but we can be vegans. Producing a pound of beef causes far more greenhouse gas emissions and other pollution than driving for 3 hours while leaving all the lights on back home.
In one post lena claims mother nature is perfect, however, in every other she claims to be superior in knowledge then mother nature.
All you can do is laugh.
"lena
at least we should interfere as little as possible.... why destroy it so much when we can do something else instead. Of course we can't live in a city without electricity, but we can be vegans. Producing a pound of beef causes far more greenhouse gas emissions and other pollution than driving for 3 hours while leaving all the lights on back home.
July 5, 2012 at 1:37 pm"
I challenge you to breath in the exhaust of the most fuel economic car for three hours and IF you're still alive try the same thing with that pound of beef and see how things turn out. I've never seen the caution on a package of beef that said, "Warning, exhalation of beef exhaust may be hazardous to your health. Only use in well ventilated area!"
What in your hunting experience has caused you to draw this conclusion? Have you even ever been in the woods? Or are you basically taking the position of "I have never done this activity, but I am nonetheless a self proclaimed expert on it"...
Why bring up the ethics debate again?? Why do vegetarians feel the need to put little comments out there to suit there agenda?? You are right, there is not enough wild game out there to sustain everyone. I think we have already covered the "ethics" topic, so I won't bother with a rebuttal.
If 7 billion people in this planet join the hunt, there would be no animals left. We now have to hunt each other which would amount to "You know what". The real question is : When men were hunter gatherers thousands of years ago eating meat made a lot of sense. It was each man for himself. Today when you have a complex civilization with a large population, may be giving up meat may be the best thing to do.
You give it up. Me, i'll eat as much as I can.
have you asked yourself why? Maybe you will find a lot of c…. unpleasant things about yourself – arrogance; shallowness; unwillingness to accept something new that goes against your desires to be comfortable even it is on the expense of others; too much ego to accept the fact that you might be wrong; too selfish; too stubborn; or not intelligent enough to grasp the concept and look into it further…. At least half of the sick people in hospitals would be healed if they were fed a vegan diet and if there were less peopl like you in the medical field who don't even want to hear about it.
I find your comments about being arrogant and unwilling to accept that you are wrong funny. Anytime a vegan starts speaking about their food choices I notice the same tendencies in them...
As for healing half the people in hospitals by switching them to a vegan diet, can you give me some peer reviewed proof of this that is undisputed? some studies indicate meat may be bad for you, but other studies indicate that meat is an essential part of our diets, especially for children that are growing and need plenty of protein. I've not heard about any study that says you will heal half the people in hospitals by limiting their diets...please tell me where I can find this information?!??
we are also told that milk is a good source of calcium, but it turns out it causes osteoporosis instead. "Every time you consume milk you erode bone-making cells, increasing the risk of osteoporosis." http://www.yourmedicaldetective.com/public/Milk_Revealed_As_Main_Cause_Of_Osteoporosis_in_New_Book.cfm
We researched only the meat-based diet and tried to make the best of it. There is plenty of information of the benefits of a vegan diet verses a meat diet on the web. A vegan diet comes with all the nutrients a meat-diet has and more. Of course, only recent studies show that. Here is a good article about B12 http://www.naturalnews.com/029531_vitamin_B12_vegan.html
@ lena
You haven't cited anything 'reputable' in your B12 reference. This is informaton pulled by a writer from an "opinion piece" written by a chiropractor – a group who is well-known for their in-depth nutritional knowledge.
There are B12 "pre-cursors" found in plants, but no research has yet shown, to my knowledge, than either bacteria in the body or enzymes in the human body can successfully convert these to a form that will function as B12.
If you're so convinced that this is true, why don't you go ahead and do it, and get back to us on how that worked out for you? Cut out any 'supplements' you may be taking, don't use any fortified or enriched flour (or any products that contain them), and no yeast extract of any kind. Get back to us in 30 days and let us know you're doing. "Put your money where your mouth is", if you believe this as strongly as you talk like you do.
Lena,
I once read on the internet that Ben Franklin once said not to believe everything you read on the internet.
yourmedicaldetective.com & naturalnews.com are not peer reviewed science information. In fact, I've read articles on natural news that cherry pick phrases to back themselves up while ignoring what the cited study actually concluded was safe (which obviously was not what they wanted to hear and relay). I've even emailed them pointing it out and their editors just responded with a we don't write the articles so we won't edit out the information. Find a real scientific article instead of these online sources written by people who don't even understand the scientific method much less have the knowledge to recommend a healthy lifestyle other than what they *think* might be good for you.
My daughter (21 years old now) and I have been vegans for more than 7 years and we didn't take any vitamins and so far we are ok. I don't drink soy milk or fortified breads – my food includes mostly simple foods prepared at home. During these years I didn’t get sick and I have a strong immune system (I also know it from a hematologist. Btw, I wish you could see the red and white blood cells of a meat eater compared to a vegan… just by looking at the clotted red cells of a meat eater one can see clearly than not much of oxygen, B12 and other vitamins reach the cells)
I also feel more energetic than ever and most women my age (and look younger of course). My daughter didn't take vitamins after she did her own research on a vegan diet and concluded that it is not necessary to have supplements if you eat correctly – simple, nutritional foods. I’m not saying though people shouldn’t take vitamins. If you’re thinking that you are going to get sick if you don’t take them, you should, otherwise you will become sick, even if you are a meat eater.
she also travelled the world for 1 year on a vegan diet and no vitamins. She went to Nepal, India, Asia, Russia, Italy.... it is really not that hard to be vegan
Thats a pretty good self description lena.
I could say the same thing to you about hunting. Why not try it? Why not see what it feels like to provide for your family without having to go to the grocery store? Scared you might learn something new? Scared you might enjoy it? Too ignorant to see other people's point of view?? This is exactly why no one respects what you say. Even your fellow vegans are disagreeing with you.
Lena, what kind of starches do yo eat? Do you eat pasta?
either giving it up or drastically reducing consumption
Sam, I agree, the amount of meat being consumed is unnecessary to sustain human life. A well balanced diet that includes a moderate portion of meat is not only going to improve health, but improve the food market as a whole. People buy processed food because it is cheap. If people ate less fresh meat, the demand would fall and so would the prices, thus making better food available to a broader market. Its win win for everyone!
i agree
glad to see we're on the same page.
V_1, AB hunter :)
Actually, there would be enough. There are plenty of certain animals. I know that in my state, white-tailed deer outnumber humans almost 3-1, and I don't live in a sparsley populated area.
Zealous vegans [not all vegans] drive me, a growth biologist, nuts. My cousin was one of those health nuts, and she would constantly link me sources with no authoritative figure in the "study." Most often, the articles [like the ones linked in replies below] used one of the No.1 no-nos in general scientific statistis–they always made a correlation/causation basis to their conclusion. NEVER do this. It's the equivilent of noticing a lineup of obese people are all wearing khaki shorts. Therefore, since they are all wearing the same shorts, those shorts must cause obesity. Similar to that cat litter scare story the other day.
Our brains take up the majority of our metabolism. You can get the proteins needed for the brain from vegetation, however, the amount we'd need is double to triple the amount a full-grown, 1500lb cow would need.
I would take zealous vegans [again, I'm saying out-of-the-norm. Many people don't offend me with their diet choices, so long as it's not baseless logic] more seriously if they linked me proof of their reasoning from cites like NCBI.gov, or a .edu study with a detailed observational study and a wide sample size. The lack of biochemistry knowledge of some "nutritionists" that advise people such as raw food eaters is appalling.
Nope, and I won't even consider it. They could make it illegal and I would still do it. NOTHING will ever change that fact.
How about "it's your decision so make it and enjoy it". What's the point of living your life according to the opinions of nut job snobbly types? Let the PETA crowd get back to searching for where they left their brains.
"What's the point of living your life according to the opinions of nut job snobbly types?"
There is none.
Congrats, Rationalization Woman... you're still killing animals, you're still adversely impacting the environment, and you've managed to convince yourself that you're somehow more holy than everyone else. Great job!
The delusional fantasy that you're not harming the environment dove-tails nicely with the smugness of someone who thinks she is "self-sufficient". Only problem is, you're not. Did you build the gun you used to shoot whatever it is you ate? Did you forge the knife you gutted the animals with yourself, after discovering iron without being told what it was, how to find and extract it, how to make a fire with no tools made by anyone else? Didn't think so.
As for the notion that it's not harmful to the environment, baloney. The animals you kill are removed from the food-web, resulting in an imbalance, an increase in the population of whatever they were either feeding on or competing for those resources with, which then propagates through the web, doing a little erosion of a sort, all along the way. The fact that you can't see the effect immediately or don't realize you're having one DOESN'T mean it's not happening. If you have any questions, consult Dr. Thomas Malthus. News flash, lady... your hunting DOES have an environmental impact.
The notion you, unlike the "factory farms" you deride so snootily don't waste anything is also nonsense. Factory farms don't waste anything either. They're run by businessmen, and any part of anything they had to spend money on wasted is money left on the table, and they're experts at NOT doing that. Take "pink slime" for instance... we all know now, what that is, right? For anyone who doesn't, it's the insider nick-name for scraps of meat that were too small for it to make economic sense to try to get off the bones mechanically, with knives, so they do it chemically, using a 'knife' called ammonia, to rip meat from bone at the molecular level. Then they (one would hope) remove or neutralize the (poisonous) ammonia, leaving just the meat, which is (or at least was, 'till word got out about this practice,) added to other meat products (like hamburgers,) and sold to people in stores and restaurants. Now that people found out and freaked out over it, they've returned to the older practice of only feeding it to animals, since the customers fled when people found out what unholy "meat" they were being fed. The reaction was similar to how you might expect people to respond on finding out what the main ingredient in Soylent Green is... in the case of pink slime, I don't think it's the source or method that alarms people, as much as the lack of confidence that ALL the poison is in fact being removed.
The next self-delusion I'd like to try disabusing you of, is the notion of hunting's "light environmental impact". The reason hunters appear to have a lighter environmental impact is that there are relatively few of you doing it. If EVERYONE got his or her food the same way, all the little woodland creatures whose blood you gleefully splatter yourself with as you rip their still-warm carcasses open with your Bowie knife, (or do you use a machete?) would be rapidly driven to extinction. Farming food helps conserve nature by limiting the amount of the land set aside for feeding... what is it now, 8 billion people? Just look at the American Bison... hunted to near extinction... (or are they all gone now?) by people LIKE YOU, and that happened when there were FAR fewer people to feed than now.
As for the meat being healthier, you don't know that. You don't know what poisons or toxins or parasites might have been in the food or water that animal ate and drank, there is NO quality control, and unless you're also certified as a kosher butcher, a food-safety/health inspector, or a veterinarian, how can you tell if the animal you shot or caught was diseased?
Can you tell which fowl has H5N1, or which hoofed mammal has some kind of encephalitis, or meningitis, or rabies? Doubtful. People malign factory farms, but without them, many would starve, since they help keep prices down to within the reach of most people, and the product is generally of at least fairly decent quality. (At least in our country it is.) If you want better, you can always shop at Whole Paycheck... or the organic/free-range section that more and more supermarkets have nowadays, or go to a farmers' market.
As for the idea that they're not miserable, I'm sure that's the last thing that goes through a deer's brain, or whatever animals you murder, before they die, as they limp along, bleeding to death from the wounds you gleefully inflicted, that they're SO glad to be killed by you, and that they weren't subjected to the misery of a factory farm. If they had the capacity to consider how much better off they were, they'd probably still resent being murdered and butchered to make your dinner.
However... THEY'RE ANIMALS, genius... they don't think abstractly, and while I won't say they don't have feelings, after a fashion, I don't think you can argue that most herbivores are, as a group, are very bright. (You're not hunting wolves and bobcats, are you? They're reputed to be slightly more clever, but I doubt there's a really big difference.)
As for the tiny amount of money you kick-in for the privilege of hunting, do you really think that covers the costs of woodland maintenance, fire-protection, etc.? It doesn't. It just reduces the number of people who kill animals for kicks, and to get trophies, by making it NOT free.
Anyway, pat yourself on the back, Lily. You're helping to "destroy the Earth," just the same as anyone else, but in your case it's ironic since you think you're saving it. Well, you're not. Maybe if you used no electricity or man-made products, living in a naturally occurring cave that nothing else was occupying when you found it, hunting and gathering as our ancestors did with their bare hands and stone tools 25,000 years ago... but I doubt very much you're doing that, since most caves don't come with an INTERNET connection, so how could you have posted this self-serving drivel to CNN.com?
Lie to yourself all you want, but anyone with any brains can see right through your self-congratulating, self-righteous, smug, annoying little post. You are a murderer of your fellow animals, you're no better than the rest of us, and when you hunt on your own you take food off the tables of farmers, ranchers, cowboys, etc., who collectively bear all the responsibility, and face 100% of the risk of making their livelihoods from being the ones who feed the world.
Get over yourself, lady... you're no better than anyone else, just more deluded. You've been hanging out with the rural Oregonians too long.
You are an ignorant fool.
Talk about being smug, you need to get over yourself. Did she build the gun,forge the knife,smelt the iron, really? Did you build any of the crap from which you are pontificating to us all? I believe it is pretty well universally recognized that one generation stands on the shoulders of the previous, you are no different or you'd be scribbling your grand expose in dust with a stick.
Wow...you are just an angry jerk who thinks the world revolves around your opinion.
Your story has become tiresome.
@Eman de Riuqer, I would like to be polite about this, but your post is so full of inaccurate stupidities, and inarticulate loathing, that you make that hope impossible
".The delusional fantasy that you're not harming the environment dove-tails nicely with the smugness of someone who thinks she is "self-sufficient". Only problem is, you're not. Did you build the gun you used to shoot whatever it is you ate? Did you forge the knife you gutted the animals with yourself, after discovering iron without being told what it was, how to find and extract it, how to make a fire with no tools made by anyone else? Didn't think so"
"Definition of SELF-SUFFICIENT
1
: able to maintain oneself or itself without outside aid : capable of providing for one's own needs " I see nothing her to require I make my own tools.
"Synonyms: independent, self-dependent, self-reliant, self-subsistent, self-subsisting, self-supported, self-supporting, self-sustained, self-sustaining"
Another key word here "Maintain" main·tain verb \mān-ˈtān, mən-\
transitive verb
1
: to keep in an existing state (as of repair, efficiency, or validity) : preserve from failure or decline " I see nothing here that says you need to rebuild from the ground up for every action or thought. Quite the opposite in fact.
"As for the notion that it's not harmful to the environment, baloney. The animals you kill are removed from the food-web, resulting in an imbalance, an increase in the population of whatever they were either feeding on or competing for those resources with, which then propagates through the web, doing a little erosion of a sort, all along the way. The fact that you can't see the effect immediately or don't realize you're having one DOESN'T mean it's not happening. If you have any questions, consult Dr. Thomas Malthus. News flash, lady... your hunting DOES have an environmental impact." You are at least partially correct here. There is an effect. When there is more food and less predators, births increase, when there is less food and more predators, births decrease, and this process has been going on since the birth of the world. Does hunting have an adverse effect on this process? No, we are part of the process, and as natural as breathing. Only our weapons have changed over the years, but Bambi is just as dead from a rock from a sling as from a high power rifle bullet.
" Take "pink slime" for instance... we all know now, what that is, right? For anyone who doesn't, it's the insider nick-name for scraps of meat that were too small for it to make economic sense to try to get off the bones mechanically, with knives, so they do it chemically, using a 'knife' called ammonia, to rip meat from bone at the molecular level. Then they (one would hope) remove or neutralize the (poisonous) ammonia, leaving just the meat, which is (or at least was, 'till word got out about this practice,) added to other meat products (like hamburgers,) and sold to people in stores and restaurants. Now that people found out and freaked out over it, they've returned to the older practice of only feeding it to animals, since the customers fled when people found out what unholy "meat" they were being fed. The reaction was similar to how you might expect people to respond on finding out what the main ingredient in Soylent Green is... in the case of pink slime, I don't think it's the source or method that alarms people, as much as the lack of confidence that ALL the poison is in fact being removed." Here you are making my point FOR me. People do not trust processed food as much as natural food because it is profit driven to compromise safety. All those safety inspectors are there to make sure the rules are followed, and the quality meet the MINIMUM standard. I have a vested interest in making sure the meat is good, as I and my family are the ones eating it. And after 40 years as a hunter, I can certainly tell good meat from bad as well as any butcher. If I use a processor, he HAS been trained and tested, and certified by the State, same as any butcher. And beyond that is a testing lab available for hunters if there is any doubt about any animal. You, Eman, do not know what you are talking about.
"The next self-delusion I'd like to try disabusing you of, is the notion of hunting's "light environmental impact". The reason hunters appear to have a lighter environmental impact is that there are relatively few of you doing it. If EVERYONE got his or her food the same way, all the little woodland creatures whose blood you gleefully splatter yourself with as you rip their still-warm carcasses open with your Bowie knife, (or do you use a machete?) would be rapidly driven to extinction. Farming food helps conserve nature by limiting the amount of the land set aside for feeding... what is it now, 8 billion people? Just look at the American Bison... hunted to near extinction... (or are they all gone now?) by people LIKE YOU, and that happened when there were FAR fewer people to feed than now."
""The next self-delusion I'd like to try disabusing you of, is the notion of hunting's "light environmental impact". The reason hunters appear to have a lighter environmental impact is that there are relatively few of you doing it" Let's start with this nonsense. Here is a small fun fact for you. There are more registered hunters (that's guys who must buy permits to hunt public lands or to hunt someone else's land) (not guys like me, who hunt their own land,) in just 3 average eastern states , than fighters in the ENTIRE US MILITARY. We make such a small impact, you did not have any clue to the real facts.
" If EVERYONE got his or her food the same way, all the little woodland creatures whose blood you gleefully splatter yourself with as you rip their still-warm carcasses open with your Bowie knife, (or do you use a machete?) would be rapidly driven to extinction" Typical PETA crap. Several species that WERE on the brink have been brought back to healthy herd sizes by hunter/ conservation groups. And efforts are ongoing world wide. With no help or thanks from you.
"Just look at the American Bison... hunted to near extinction... (or are they all gone now?" Since you are obviously speaking out of your hind end without any attempt at accuracy, and no real knowledge, American Bison, commonly called Buffalo, are alive and well and being raised like cattle out west. They were brought back from the brink by,( dare I say it) Hunter/ conservation groups. (and Buffalo Hump is delicious!) Buffalo were endangered on two fronts, due to what was called "Market Hunting" (now outlawed)and the military's need to remove the Indian's food supply (that is another piece of war history)
" all the little woodland creatures whose blood you gleefully splatter yourself with as you rip their still-warm carcasses open with your Bowie knife, (or do you use a machete?)"
"Synonyms: blithesome, festive, gay, merry, jocose, jocular, jocund, jolly, jovial, laughing, mirthful, sunny"You can bet your ass I'm gleeful (grinning) a good harvest/ hunt is something to celebrate. They are still warm, because they must be gutted quickly to prevent damage to the meat or added waste. And while you could use a Bowie knife (it has been done when that is all you have) but a machete is a stupid choice of tool better suited to trimming trees and sneaking up on corn stalks (quivering in their roots) We use smaller knives for the skinning and gutting process. A very small knife called a gutting hook is used to open them up like a zipper! Works great and very little mess. flexible skinning knives are used to remove the hide.(These knives are much like fillet knives used on fish) and very sharp knives called boning knives are used to separate the joints. followed by rigid fixed blade knives for the meat slicing. We are workmen who prefer to use the right tool for the job.
"and the product is generally of at least fairly decent quality. (At least in our country it is.) If you want better, you can always shop at Whole Paycheck... or the organic/free-range section that more and more supermarkets have nowadays, or go to a farmers' market." Free Range is exactly what Wild Game is you blithering idiot!
"As for the idea that they're not miserable, I'm sure that's the last thing that goes through a deer's brain, or whatever animals you murder, before they die, as they limp along, bleeding to death from the wounds you gleefully inflicted, that they're SO glad to be killed by you, and that they weren't subjected to the misery of a factory farm. If they had the capacity to consider how much better off they were, they'd probably still resent being murdered and butchered to make your dinner." If I do my job well, the last thing to go through Bambi"s is my bullet. And he never knew I was there.
"As for the tiny amount of money you kick-in for the privilege of hunting, do you really think that covers the costs of woodland maintenance, fire-protection, etc.? It doesn't. It just reduces the number of people who kill animals for kicks, and to get trophies, by making it NOT free." Do you have even a passing acquaintance with reality? Hunters generate BILLIONS or dollars each year in fees, taxes (self-imposed) waterfowl stamps, single use park fees (most of which we paid for their creation in the first place) and we buy thousands of acres each year through conservation groups, for the ongoing creation of wetlands, and animal habitats.
As for hunting trophies, I hunt meat. If it happens to have an impressive rack, that will go up on the wall as a reminder of the hunt, but doe meat is sweater, and more tender, and is a better way to manage a herd size.
"Lie to yourself all you want, but anyone with any brains can see right through your self-congratulating, self-righteous, smug, annoying little post. You are a murderer of your fellow animals, you're no better than the rest of us, and when you hunt on your own you take food off the tables of farmers, ranchers, cowboys, etc., who collectively bear all the responsibility, and face 100% of the risk of making their livelihoods from being the ones who feed the world." You clearly have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Farmers and ranchers have problems with too many deer, and can apply for nuisance permits, which allow them to kill even more deer outside of the normal hunting season! In some places, these permits allow for unlimited killing of deer because of the crop damage. The same crops that you rely upon to eat. Your dinner was protected from harm, by the killing of my dinner That makes you a hypocrite.
Now, climb off your child's rocking horse, and learn a few facts before you spout off again. It just makes you look quite stupid.
I AM A HUNTER, AND DAMN PROUD OF IT.
I am a Blackfeet Indian (enrolled) so am more genetically predisposed to hunt large game than most, and live both in rural Washington and remote Montana. Even so, it still isn't practical to live on hunted meat. Really, this is an absurd article, just fluffy nonsense. Just holier than thou crap. If even a tiny percentage of Americans took this advice, the woods would be bare of game, ecosystems would collapse, and idiots with guns would be shooting each other wholesale by accident. And I don't believe for a second that this girl actually practices what she preaches.
"so am more genetically predisposed to hunt large game than most." And so I should have stopped reading there but wanted to see what other preposterous BS you posted.
You are predisposed to it because of your race? Just because the native americans were evolutionary behind compared to Europe and thus, were living behind the times until about 350 years ago does not mean you are predisposed to hunting.
All humans were built to be hunters. Some have just lost touch with their culture.
“You can judge a man's true character by the way he treats his fellow animals.”
― Paul McCartney
Ah yes. The great philosophies of the guy who wrote "Silly Little Love Songs".
I treat animals with the utmost respect. I respect their need to exist, and I respect what they provide me and my family. There is always a moment after the kill where I reflect on what has just happened. There is far more to hunting than just the kill. Its about being in the outdoors, being one with nature, and enjoying all that nature has to offer. That means incorporating wild blueberries, fiddle heads, dandelions, mushrooms, green onions, raspberries, blackberries, and maple syrup into the fresh wild meals that I cook.
I hunt and eat animals, but I respect them. In my undergraduate program [I'm a growth biologist PhD student], we were made to walk through the cattle chutes and arenas of a local slaughterhouse to empathize with our fellow living being, to see how tense or relaxed the atmosphere was and to make it more easy for the cows. A happy, content cow is a moveable one. And a delicious one, if that's its purpose later on. If a farmer mistreats his livestock, his product won't be as much quantity or quality.
Ever had a free-range chicken egg vs a cooped-up, boxed hen's chicken egg? The difference is noticeable, even in appearance.
I hunt once a year with my father when I go home to visit him for Thanksgiving. We kill a deer–sometimes buck, sometimes doe, none young–and split the meat after its processed. We always shoot the deer in the surest spot to kill him quickly and with the least amount of pain. We have a moment of silence out of respect for the animal who gave its life so we can have something to live off of. We take it home and process, leaving almost nothing behind. We've even used the innards to make delicious boudin, or sausage. Our neighbors love to make neck roasts. None of it is completely wasted.
I'd say that's respectful. And as I mentioned above, deer are overpopulated in my area, so I'm helping out the overall local ecosystem by population check. I won't deny that humans are overpopulated as well. But that's why I take birth control and participate in family planning. Cannot say the same for most of my acquaintances, though...
I don't hunt, but I fully support it for many of the reasons listed above.
Hunting has pretty much no validity as a realistic food source. According to Fish and Game, the average success rate for deer hunters is around 25%. That's for ONE animal, in an entire season. Once you've added up the cost of weapon, ammunition, supplies, clothing, permits...and taken into account the fairly low likelihood you'll actually bag anything? Yeah. It's silly to think hunting could supply the bulk of anyone's diet. Hunting is a sporting pursuit, just be honest about it.
"One animal in an entire season"....you realize that one white tail deer(the smallest of the mule/axis/white tail/Stag line) can yield between 50-100 pounds of meat? That is a very substantial amount for a family. I have several freezers full of meat I have harvested myself. This is not a one time affair, nor is it uncommon with my friends and neighbors. To be honest, it sounds like you don't have much insight.
Mark – so if the average success rate is around 25%, that would mean one deer every four years or so on average. 50 to 100 pounds of meat is not going to feed a family for 4 years.
Cite your 25% success rate claim. Name the Game and Fish source you are quoting.
Clearly stated in my response, I based my reply on one animal per season, not your unsubstantiated claim of 25% success rate, in which you did not clarify against how many hunting seasons it was based upon. 25% could mean that one out of four animals hunted in a season was harvested. EIther you can't articulate your thoughts, or you don't understand the numbers you are reading. Again, I don't think you have much insight, just some random statistics. You also make a very unsubstantiated claim in regards to the costs of supplies, which I'm pretty sure is more guess work on your part. Do you want to put some numbers and sources behind it?
That's one animal Todd. Deer are not the only animals that can be hunted. I also hunt bears, grouse, rabbits, squirrels, ducks, and geese. If I don't get a deer one season, no big deal. I have plenty of meat in the freezer that most certainly makes a difference in my family's food budget. Then there's fishing. I do not buy fish from the store, I go out and catch fresh walleye, bass, pike, perch, trout, and salmon. Some may think that hunting and fishing is unnecessary with today's supermarkets, but some people like knowing that they are providing for their family. There is a certain satisfaction that comes from knowing that you put the effort in to successfully harvest that animal.
I must be one heck of a hunter then...I generally get three whitetails a year, which feeds my family for most of the year. With the other hunting I do we never purchase meat for our family.
Nicely put Todd – my thoughts as well...
Are you kidding me? My primary meat source is venison. I hunt deer and other game, and i feed my family with it. My wife and daughter both prefer venison over grocery beef. I am successful because i do my homework and I scout and read the habits of the animals. I have not purchased grocery meat in over 14 years. I bowhunt and gun hunt. I enjoy the hunt as well, I enjoy the challenge of having to outsmart a cunning and intelligent animal. I am not out there to kill an animal just to kill it. all HUNTERS are the same way, but just like every race there are bad apples.
Hence the gathering in "Hunting/Gathering". Man shall not live by meat alone. However, Mark is correct. A small deer can supply alot of meat for a family. A garden in the yard for veggies & fruit – can them up for the winter. Big savings in the long run and a diet our evolutionary trail has led us to which is healthiest for us. Many members of my husband's family hunts and we enjoy the best meat there is. Deer, Elk, Caribou, etc. Nothing is wasted. We honor the animals we kill & eat – I am proud to belong to a tradition passed down by our ancestors.
There are multiple seasons in some states. Buck/doe, rifle/bow. It's possible to have a freezer full of meat every winter without going to the store. Don't forget bear season, and fishing in the spring and summer.
You're right, more on that here: http://exposingthebiggame.wordpress.com/2012/07/12/the-day-seven-billion-people-decided-to-hunt-their-own-dinner/#comment-743
Biodynamic agriculture–where the chickens till the land and provide the fertilizer, for example, can be sustainable. The problem I have with hunting is that most hunters I know are not as conscientious as those you've met.
Let me get this straight eating meat is unethical because it involves deliberate killing of a being. And killing is cruel and involves suffering. So...
... Where do those who are the vanguard of the well being of beings stand on the abortion of a human fetus?
This might be interesting.
perhaps there is no correlation
Hunting animals for food is natural. I choose not to do it. The raising and killing of some farm animals is cruelty, such as pigs and chickens. Animals in a slaughterhouse scream when they are killed. If you don't think so, go live near one when they are shrieking in the night. I'm a vegetarian, wannabe vegan. In the long run, humans are a temporary species on the Earth, like the dinosaurs, only we probably won't last a 100 million years because we'll destroy our environment, and the environment of a lot of hapless animals. The Earth doesn't need us. Stop arguing and do what you think is right. It won't matter in the long run.
'The raising and killing of some farm animals is cruelty, such as pigs and chickens'
Not necessarily. Just like other areas of life, it depends on the person/farmer. This applies to hunters as well. Some hunters take more than one shot, if the first shot doesnt kill the animal. For example, I'v seen deer shot, and run off, only to die a slow and agonizing death. Yes, game meat can be healtier to eat, but killing the animal is not always humane as some would have you believe.
'. In the long run, humans are a temporary species on the Earth'
Your not exactly an optimist are you?
Hunting has never been natural for humans as we have always been scavengers! Our ancestors for millions of years ate fruit, nuts and berries! We have only eaten meat for about the last 10,000 years! Our hunting skills are, with most of us, non-existent! We don't have large fangs to tear the flesh from a cow or other animal nor sharp claws to help subdue prey. Our intestines are longer than carnivores intestines, meaning we do not rid our bodies quickly of the toxins and harmful bacteria in meat! The final test for those who think they are in any way carnivorous is, do you salivate when you see road kill? If not then you are not a natural meat eating animal!
Hunting has never been natural for humans as we have always been scavengers! Our ancestors for millions of years ate fruit, nuts and berries! We have only eaten meat for about the last 10,000 years! Our hunting skills are, with most of us, non-existent! We don't have large fangs to tear the flesh from a cow or other animal nor sharp claws to help subdue prey. Our intestines are longer than carnivores intestines, meaning we do not rid our bodies quickly of the toxins and harmful bacteria in meat! The final test for those who think they are in any way carnivorous is, do you salivate when you see road kill? If not then you are not a natural meat eating animal!
"Our ancestors for millions of years ate fruit, nuts and berries" and guess what? YOU STILL CAN! That is because we are OMNIVORES! That means we can eat most everything other animals eat. 10,000 years of eating meat?Why then it a tradition as well as tasty!
"Our hunting skills are, with most of us, non-existent! We don't have large fangs to tear the flesh" I don't know about you, but I Have Canine teeth for that very reason, to tear meat. And if you doubt my hunting skills, by all means, put on the Bambi costume and protest hunting this fall, in the woods, at about 40 yards. ;) (I hunt with a bow too.)
"The final test for those who think they are in any way carnivorous is, do you salivate when you see road kill?" YES! many hunters are on lists to call for roadkill deer. it also goes to open shelters and food pantries. And that deer doesn't cost me $100. in permits, fees, taxes, gas, ammo and processing. To let it go to waste (as you do) would be shameful.
So climb off your high horse and learn something. Hunters are the greatest conservationists you will ever meet. And some of the best people. My Pastor leads a hunt every year.
Best. Post. Ever.
And do you salivate when you look in the compost bin and see/smell rotting vegetables?
Martin Guest,
You are completely wrong.
We've only eating GRAIN for about the last 10,000 years.
We've eaten MEAT for MILLIONS of years. In fact, not a single species in our genus have been herbivores, all have been omnivores.
Our digestive tract is made to digest both plant an animal matter. We are OMNIVORES. We do not have the digestive tract of a carnivore because carnivores cannot efficiently digest plant matter; a longer digestive tract is required for both herbivores and omnivores to be able to eat plants. You had a correct fact about digestive system length (that carnivores have shorter digestive tracts), but then your post drew false conclusions.
We evolved to use tools. Just because we don't look like apex-carnivores doesn't mean we aren't supposed to eat meat. Many omnivores don't have "claws". Did you know that chickens are pigs are omnivores?
As far as "natural instinct", if you raise a carnivore in captivity, it doesn't know how to hunt either. In fact, when I switched my dogs from dry dog kibble to a raw diet, they didn't even recognize meat as food at first! They had learned since they were puppies that food was little brown dry nuggets.
And in addition these statistics indicate 40% of those polled kill things for fun{sport}, that really worries me.
You don't belong to game animals species, do you? If not, why worry? ;)
Vegetarians/Vegans, whatever you claim to be, this is what I have trouble understanding, why can't you just shut up? Most people eat meat. Homosapiens have been eating meat since the dawn of man. You aren't going to be able to stop the majority of people from eating meat. So why all the racket? Calm down and realize that no one is forcing you to eat meat. Do i personally believe some of the ways farm animals are treated are wrong? Yes, i honestly do. If you want to fight against the way some corporate farms treat chickens I'll be the first to sign the petition. If you want to complain about veal, I'll probably be on your side. Just don't tell me I shouldn't eat something just because it had to be killed to eat. Do you not kill a head of lettuce when you eat it? Does a carrot not die when it is cooked? Look around you, animals are eating other animals all over the place.
there are animals who kill other animals (I always had a hard time watching how they do that) and there are animals who don't. We can choose to what category we want to belong to. I find animals who don't eat animals more peaceful, calm, relaxing...
Wow
No kidding...
Humans are OMNIVORES. You cannot "chose" to be a herbivore; that is something set on the species-level, not the individual level.
Even if you choose to be vegan and eliminate all animal products from your diet and get those nutrients from artificial supplements instead, you are still BIOLOGICALLY AN OMNIVORE and your body still has the same nutritional requirements.
So I CHOOSE to eat meat. I will always CHOOSE to eat meat. Please learn what freedom means and then learn to live and let live.
How would you like it if you were forced to eat meat? You wouldn't all, we DEMAND that same respect, period.
jay: most of us don't give a damn what you eat
JayWalker, you say we should shut up? When we we see wrong, we speak up. I think what you are really saying is that no one should challenge your beliefs because they are right and true. Obviously those who disagree you have no right to voice an opinion. As much as I hate killing animals and very much dislike the hunters who kill them, I would never suggest they shut up.
Dude, the lame statements regarding vegetables feeling pain are, well, lame. I am a vegetarian, and I don't make big statements. My spouse eats meat, and that's a choice. Not all vegetarians make noise.
i think i made the eatocracy editors mad – they posted a big article on how to grill meat.... typical.... Hopefully one day they will realize that they are in denial.... Can someone actually at cnn do a research and post good, healthy vegan meal recipes? or post information about what vegan celebrities eat? or how to try a vegan diet? check the 21 day vegan mealplan – http://www.21daykickstart.org/index_menu_interim.cfm
We give the floor to vegans and vegetarians all the time (a great example): http://eatocracy.cnn.com/2012/01/04/55-eat-more-compassionately-in-2012/
It's all about balance and listening to both sides.
wow, that' actually a good article.... i love you for that :) i might have seemed too blunt and too rigid, but actually I just wanted to say as much as possible cause it was a perfect article for it and lots of people read cnn. Hopefully someone will pick up some ideas and research further and maybe some children won't have to suffer from diabetes and other meat-related diseases as a result
Diabetes is an insulin disorder, not a "meat disease". Are you even trying to see a viewpoint other than your own? Are you capable?
As the PETP Founder I consider what you are all doing disgusting.
Doing you know how hard it is for a plant to get water and nutrients from the soil and the sun.
To grow when a big fat tree is blocking your light?
And then just as your big and strong to have some stupid animal to come along and rip you out of the ground, just because they can, and eat you!
You should all learn how to live without killing anything. Does a plant not bleed its fluids when you cut it, just like an animal? Just because a plant's fluids are a different color doesn't mean you ANIMALS have not hurt it!
Such unfeeling, disgusting creators animals are.
People for the Ethical Treatment of Plants (Join me my sane animals, quickly!, we won't be around for much longer)
it is fluid, not blood. You are far from being sensitive enough to feel the pain of the plants and recognize their fluid as blood... at least recognize the pain you are causing to your kin, the animals. Humans are animals-mamals and not plants.
You call us uneducated....you can't even spell mammals properly.
Oink Thunter, you are not uneducated, my friend. You are undereducated. You have just enough education to sound almost smart–but not quite. Go back to school and finish the Third Grade. It will do wonders for you.
This coming from the guy who makes sure to put an inappropriate, misspelled name in front of everyone who opposes his view?? F**k the third grade, you need to go back to kindergarten and learn some social skills.
Plants don't feel pain. They lack the nervous system and brain necessary for this to happen. A plant can respond to stimuli, for example by turning towards the light or closing over a fly, but that is not the same thing.
:-)
People are funny.
so what do you eat,grass?
Why hunting you own dinner is an ethical way to eat – by Jeffery Dahmer
Have you considered becoming a vegetarian? Vegetarian or not, you may want to consider this Buddhist prayer:
This food is the gift of the whole universe,
Each morsel is a sacrifice of life,
May I be worthy to receive it.
May the energy in this food,
Give me the strength,
To transform my unwholesome qualities
into wholesome ones.
I am grateful for this food,
May I realize the Path of Awakening,
For the sake of all beings.
In response to the author saying "birdwatchers and hikers haven't paid near that much" (the $80 paid for hunting tags etc), those of us who do like to hike and horseback ride in Oregon's and Washington's national forest and wilderness areas do have to pay for a day-use or annual Trail Park Pass. Last time I purchased one was a few years ago, I believe the day-use fee was $5 and the annual pass was $40, and well worth it for the well-maintained trails and trailheads in central Oregon.
99% of hunters give the rest of them a bad name.
Hunters have fed the tribe since we climbed out of the trees. If you don't hunt, you are a scavenger, plain and simple. I choose to live my life the way I do ... you may do the same.
Hunters are killers. I didn't meet a hunter who doesn't like the sight of an innocent pray fall on the ground and who does not enjoy the feeling of triumph… I wonder if there is a hunter in the world who decided to hunt for environmental reasons. Humans had enough vegetation to survive, but meat tasted better and was easier to get. Maybe because humans had to move up north to find more animals and fish, they forgot that there is plenty of food where they came from and their lives became harder. Only 100 year ago people would barely eat meat because it is not sustainable; people couldn't afford to raise their animals. They were able to grow just enough vegetables, grains and fruits for themselves. Most of the people in Europe ate plant-based foods. Even now in poor countries people can not afford to raise animals and can not afford to hunt either, they have to protect the animals that are left in the wild.
"Humans had enough vegetation to survive" no, they didn't, which is why meat was needed to supplement their diet. Plant foods are lacking in much needed fats, which was needed to support our expanded brain. The only reason we can live without meat now is due to international trade providing us with higher fat plant foods that we couldn't get otherwise. Also, due to the shortening of our digestive tract, we can no longer extract as much nutrients from plant foods as our frugivore and herbivore cousins, increasing our reliance on meat sources. Australopithecus might have been the last human ancestor that actually didn't need to scavenge meat to live (though it is likely that they still did), after that, though, we needed at least some meat in our diet to survive. "Meat tasted better and was easier to get" Meat was not easier to get. In a transitional zone, there are literally thousands of plant-foods available. While hunting represented a large calorie investment, it had a very large pay off and they needed the fats and salts that meat provided to survive. "Their lives became harder" Their lives did not become "harder". The average hunter/gatherer group only has to scavenge for 4 hours a day, and hunt maybe once a week in order to get their food needs. This didn't change until the implementation of agriculture (which jumped that to 12+ hrs a day). Meat is sustainable if we eat it in the small amounts that it was meant to be ingested at. Unfortunately, our bodies are genetically tuned to go after high-fat, high-sugar foods as a survival mechanism. We ( Americans) ingest waaaaay more meat than our bodies actually need to sustain ourselves, and because of this companies like Tyson and others farm their cattle and chickens in horrible conditions to meet the demand.
'Hunters are killers'. Correction, GOOD hunters, or lucky hunters, are killers. Visit any states Fish and Wildlife sites and check out success rate percentages. Typically 30% or lower. Most hunters I know consider themselves successful if they harvest a big game animal every 3-5 years. All do it for the love of the outdoors and the chance to put some "free" meat on the table.
Scupper, you choose to be a murderer. It's your choice. You do so of free will and unsound mind. I challenge you and the other hunters to hunt each other; at least it's a fair fight. It's one you will not choose because you are a coward. You will only hunt/fight when the odds are overwhelmingly in your favor. For once try a fair fight with another armed hunter!
We didn't 'climb out of the trees'. Can you prove that 'theory'?
i tried to be a vegetarian.but after you shoot a tomato there isn't enough left to eat
so you were a vegetarian who ate only tomatoes? no wonder you couldn't last long.... 'Vegetarians build their diets around a wide variety of plant foods, including grains (such as rice, barley, and oats), grain-based foods (such as bread, pasta, and cereals), legumes, vegetables, fruits, nuts and seeds.'
http://www.truestarhealth.com/Notes/1301007.html
It's a joke. You just wasted your time replying to this. ARA's don't care if you shoot your own food. They want you off of meat and animal products completely.
There also could be a problem with the sense of humour... ;)
your an idiot
Only in a society where people have plenty to eat is this a moral issue. Be very glad, vegans, you have any choice whatsoever in even choosing your food source. As for your moral qualms with omnivores, stuff it. You have it good, your belly is full of carrots, so let's leave it at that. The omnivores are taking advantage of the fact we have plenty to eat, as well. That's not the case for much of the world. Wanna trade with them? Bet you'd eat anything, anything at all that you could get your grubby mitts on. And as for eating meat, be glad your distant relatives were omnivores, or you'd still be scurrying around in the trees with a much lower cognitive ability and brain case.
how can we know if we dind't try....
Try what? Not eating meat in prehistoric times? Well, I'd say that the archeologists already answered your question when they correlated increased brain size and cognitive ability, i.e. tool-making and civilization-building skills, with an omnivorous diet. Don't take my word for it, though. Just go with your own beliefs and instincts and ignore the science behind it. And if you mean we should try starving to death to see what we'd be compelled to eat or not eat and trade places with those miserable wretches, knock yourself out and tell me how that works out for ya.
let's not forget that there is room for using more brain.... maybe if we didn't eat dead/denatured protein from animals, we would use more of our brain... first of all because our blood would have been able to bring more oxygen to our brain cells. samp applies to the rest.
Kool Aid still om the menu I see
the kool aid comes from both sides
One simple thing that apparently all Vegan and Vegetarians do not wish to recognize or are just too ignorant to be aware.....for every bushel of grain or basket of veggies, insects, animals and birds are killed in the process. During planting, cultivation and harvesting mice, snakes, rabbits, tortises are crushed; birds who nest on the ground like pheasant and quail have their eggs or babies killed. Being raised on a farm, I saw skunks, rabbits, even the occasional fawn accidentally get killed in these processes. So for those of you that act as though your way of life has no negative impact on the environment, think again because it simply isn't true.
SO TRUE, edumacated! My favorite treatise about that is at http://www.plamondon.com, search his blog for "Why I'm Not a Vegetarian." A quote from it: "Ethically, of course, it doesn't matter whether you kill an animal outright and eat it yourself, or whether it dies because you displaced it so you could grow soybeans. You killed it for your own purposes either way."
I proudly raise (and butcher) my own chickens, turkeys, ducks and pigs.
i don't think any vegan or vegetarian would deny that some harm can come to the environment because of our food choices
Karen
my standing ovation to your post.
“Livestock actually detract more from total food supply than they provide. Livestock now consume more human edible protein than they produce.… As the livestock sector moves away from using feed … that has no alternative value towards using crops and other high value inputs, it enters into competition with food … it raises overall demand and prices for crops and agricultural inputs.” – United Nations Report "Livestock's Long Shadow"
Modern humans are STILL omnivores. We can and do eat virtually anything considered edible; meat, fish, seafood, veggies, grains, fruit, eggs, you name, we eat it.
I distinguish between 'professional environmentalists' and 'environmentalists by ignorance'. Latter are not completely lost for society, former are just dumb and/or dishonest bunch beyond salvation who sees no difference between digestive systems of cows and humans.
I consider myself a 'practical environmentalist': for instance I don't buy into greenwash crap like hybrids, electro cars, etc as I do know where the electricity coming from and so far noone ever calculated their real impact on environment during production and lifecycle – how much air/water/soil becomes contaminated to produce/service/recycle/dispose their components especially motors and batteries? Show me number compared to conventional car and we'll see. Greenhouse gases increase albedo of the planet and cut off Sun's radiation. Gases also dissolved in COLD water and return into atmosphere when water gets WARM, hence their increase in atmosphere could be caused by warming not other way around. I think we wast terrible amount of resources on single use things like packaging, even recyclable ones. I know that people will not overpopulate planet because number of children per fertile female is dropping in all countries including India, countries of S.America and Middle East. Population will stabilize around 10B.
Unlike People of The Cult I did not sleep through my science and math lessons. I also hunt because we are part of ecosystems and ungulates population in North America is in better shape that they were at time of arrival of first Europeans but predators are not. Those who suggesting cannibalism and hunting are the same should see their doctor ASAP.
PS For the Author I think moving out of NY was the key point. I would sentence people to live there. ;)
what do you think about raising 60 billion animals for food each year? Does they have any negative impact on the environment? How much electicity/land/water it takes to raise them? How much methane comes from the cows in adition to other green house gas from transporting, feeding, refrigerating, slaughtering? how many wild animals will we need to satisfy human's requirements for meat? Being vegan is actually a very good alternative.
You're exactly right lena, That's why I personally prefer to HUNT and process my own meet and poultry. :D
And PLEEEEEAAAASE re-read about 'greenhouse gases' and what do they affect and how or take reading comprehension class again!
Regarding number of wild animals needed... Three words: Habitat, habitat, habitat. Fewer golf courses will do to begin with. ;)
And I don't suggest YOU to start hunting. I'm totally OK with you being herbivore. This is MY choice and I don't care about yours and perceived 'alternatives'.
i bet golf courses would solve most of the problem.... maybe if we use our backyards too, the problem would be solved.... 'Cattle expansion in the Amazon in the last twelve years has been phenomenal. During this period, the number of cattle more than doubled, from 26 million in 1990 to 57 million in 2002. The growth in Brazilian livestock production – 80% of which was in the Amazon – was largely export driven.' – http://www.cifor.org/publications/pdf_files/media/Amazon.pdf
It appeas I cannot respond to lena on her rattle on cattle expansion so I post it here:
lena you're barking at wrong tree. Cattle expansion is driven purely by so called western diet and modern logistics of big stores which forces to overproduce and funnel food right into waste bin. 'Western diet' by amount of meats consumed is definition of insanity by itself. Being a hunter and processing my own meats and poultry I waste no edible parts and ... consume way less meat than an average 'store-fed' Canadian or American.
V_1: Well put
Being a Vegan is fine in parts of the world were theres a large variety of affordable vegetables and fruits that provide the protein and fats humans need for healthy nutrition. Unfortunately, many in the world do not have access to that variety. But, they do have access to animal flesh, and, a limited variety of edible vegetation. It would be great if this was a perfect world, and everyone had access to enough vegetables and fruits to satisfy our nutritional needs, but its not.
Here is an article about a teacher who brought eighteen grade 5 students to a slaughterhouse. The children reportedly were horrified to see how cows were processed into beef. Some of the students vomited, and most cried. If killing is normal, how come the children (the purest of us) have such a reaction? Would their teacher face disciplinary action if he brought them to see a garden? Killing is never right and deep inside we all know it. Many children become vegans when they find out what is behind their food. these are very intelligent, talented children and they thrive on a vegan diet.
http://newsweak.com/news/school-field-trip-tour-of-slaughterhouse-traumatizes-children
I'm not impressed by your argument. Plants are living things. Do they miraculously stay alive when you eat them? Survival required killing. In the time you have taken to read this comment your body has killed thousands of bacteria (microscopic animals). Veganism is a valid choice, and on that makes sense for many people, but it does not eliminate the need to kill other organisms in order to survive.
touché! :D
do plants resemble humans as much as the animals? Do they have the same refined nervous system.... what is the difference between a human and a plant then? Should we harm people because we already harm plants?
While the plants we eat are certainly being killed, most of us believe, with good reason, that plants are not sentient. Chickens, pigs and cows are very likely sentient. That doesn't mean they can do algebra, but it does mean that they experience feelings, including fear and panic, especially when they are about to be slaughtered. We need to be mindful about that when we harvest animals for food. If we choose to kill animals for food, we have a moral obligation to be as kind as we can.
Lena-So your entire position is based on some arbitrary standard of sameness between a human being and whatever that human wants to eat? Are you able to read what you type or do you just black out and type nonsense?
Lena is the reason I am always a bit embarrassed to admit I am a long time vegetarian who is raising her kids as veggies. The author is not talking about slaughterhouses, nor are most of the responders.
I am an ethical vegetarian who eats eggs when I get them from my neighbor's happy chickens. I refuse to buy any animal product that isn't ethically farmed and that doesn't exist so I don't eat most animal products.
I personally could not kill an animal for meat. However, I sure as hell respect a good hunter who kills their own meal, than the people who put no thought into their meals, grab their plastic wrapped chicken from a supermarket, their commercially produced eggs, and their factory farmed milk.
My husband is a fisherman and as much as I don't want my boys to fish, they will have the option of doing it as they get older. They will know where their foods sources come from and I hope that if they choose to fish for meals, they will do it consciously and be grateful for the meal they are about to eat.
Honestly, if most vegans weren't on their soap box all of the time, they would realize that they have more in common with educated hunters and could focus on the policies of our food industry for change!
Wendy, eggs are not vegetables. But i have to say, this is a great article when it comes to brining awareness to others about the environmental issues caused by the Livestock Industry.
'than the people who put no thought into their meals, grab their plastic wrapped chicken from a supermarket, their commercially produced eggs, and their factory farmed milk.'
Wow, what an ignorant comment. Good for you, that you have access to these eggs from 'happy chickens'. Most people don't. We buy what we can find at our local super market.
Hey David, I never judged people who buy at supermarkets, only those who put no thought into their food purchases. Even Farmer's Markets take food stamps now.I refer mostly to people like my mother who disdains hunting, but happily eats her chicken from a supermarket. We, as a society, don't want to admit where our food comes from, we just shovel it in our mouths.
Lena, I didn't say I was a vegan, I am a vegetarian, some of us eat eggs.
Lena,
Lots of kids raise their own livestock at home or as part of programs like 4H and FFA and are not traumatized.
DoodleBug, you couldn't be more wrong. If you'd spend less time in a bar and more time in a classroom, you wouldn't be such an oxygen thief.
This article is an excellent example of why the disparate groups in this country should listen to each other, instead of shout. Texas hunters have been saying these things for years (check out Texas Parks and Wildlife) but the word never seems to get out to the eco-foodie types. Great job of doing just that!
Please read The Five Biggest Myths We Learned from Bambi. We've raised two generations now who honestly think owls and rabbits are friends, that deer retire to Florida when they're older and that humans aren't part of the ecosystem. http://outdoorsdownsouth.com/the-five-biggest-myths-we-learned-from-bambi/
animals have mothers who are very attached to their babies, they love each other, they run for their lives, they enjoy life, they have pain, they cry, they communicate with each other.... have you ever wonder what feelings a bird might have to mate for life? Did you observe how one of them reacts when a partner is dead.... there is evil and good in this world; it is no wonder in what category hunters and butchers fall under.... we humans are here to grow our compassion and love, to be closer to goodness. If i didn't die so far on a vegan diet, you won't either and no one would. I am healthier, have more energy, a better immune system, look younger than my meat-eater peers (not to brag but to let you know about the benefits of being vegan)
I never bought into the lie that hunters love nature. The truth is they love KILLING NATURE. Hunters, the ones who hunt deer and elk to feed themselves, I don't see any problem with them, but the trophy hunters or sport hunters or whatever you want to kill these gutless and spineless cowards are subhuman trash.
Hunters do more to support wildlife conservation than any other group. They also understand better than anybody what it means to actually participate in the ecosystem in a very direct way. We have been hunters for longer than we have been modern humans. The bulk of the anti-hunting, anti-meat attitude is a result of the detachment from nature and food production combined with popular anthropomorphic depictions of non-human animals. I live in the city and no longer hunt, and frankly I find it boring. I do have friends and family who are avid hunters, and always appreciate the venison they generously give to me.
Hunters kill more wildlife than any other group. Saying hunters care about nature is like saying rapists care about women. Hunters are destroyers of wildlife and they are subhuman.
Outhouse in the South, wrong! I suppose you enjoy killing because it feels good to have the power of life and over defenseless animals. Find another hunter and the two of you go "mano a mano" in a fair fight.
I hunt because choose to participate in the food chain you pretend to have removed yourself from. The truth is, the only reason you're even able to write these words is because your ancestors killed enough lions, tigers, bears, snakes, alligators, crocodiles to make room for your existence. That you choose not to hunt is fine, but being a vegan is only possible for you because the people who preceded here were not. As someone else pointed out, every form of life on this planet displaces something else.
And yes, I enjoy every part of hunting and fishing including the time spent walking in the woods, watching and listening to the actual killing or catching to the processing and the eating. I can grow my food, gather it, hunt or fish for it and that makes me happy! My Creek Indian ancestors were doing the same thing for generations before I came along, and I hope my progeny is still doing so for generations to come.
Anyone care to debate the vegan vs. omnivore scenario needs to look at this picture....I rest my case.
http://www.tvthrong.co.uk/files/u1670/nigellagillian.jpg
OinkPunter, it's an ethical issue. Don't kill animals because it's wrong.
Ethics is a load. Do whatever gives you pleasure. I'm enjoying factory farmed veal for breakfast, personally.
BurnSaber, Mother Nature cursed you with with a low IQ and no imagination. It's not your fault. Mother Nature is a tough old hide and she obviously saw something bad in you and wanted you to suffer. She knew what a worthless person you'd turn out to be, so she didn't want to waste much effort on you. She stripped you of morality and civility. What else did she do to you, you poor soul?
There is nothing unethical about hunting for your food.
As long as you're hunting it in the vegetable aisle of your local supermarket.
Yes Petey-Poo, because poring more money into corporate scandal america is exactly whats going to turn this recession around.
Go grow your own food, care for it, then harvest it. Then I might have an ounce of respect for you. Until then, STFU.
so typical of a hunter.... is that all you can research?
No thats not all I can research....I found this awesome video of a guy who shot a doe, but couldn't find it for hours. His hippie girlfriend was with him chewing him out the whole time about how he's a douche for killing bambi or some nonsense. Well, when they finally find the doe, he pulls out his knife and begins gutting the deer. Unfortunately, when you gut a deer that has sat for a few hours, theres gasses that build up in the stomach and digestive system. Well his knife accidentally pierced the stomach, and KABOOOM!! The whole stomach contents explode out and end up all over his GF. Well the cocky little bastard pipes right up and says "Hey you guys had the same lunch!". Priceless.
i bet it is someone with Hunter in their name who came up with the photos and spiced it up with a bit of a lie. and you are so attracted to each other, all you see and admire is the result of your ego. wake up dear, be wise not foxy. Don't be among the arrogant and deceiving
1) You're kidding yourself. 2) Encouraging people to hunt for their meals is retarded these days, is irresponsible, and cruel, and 3) "hunted" meat is no better for your health than the crap you get at the grocery store. I see you around my neighborhood, I may take up hunting myself.
Hunted meat is 100% organic, unlike the meat from the store that is hormone fed to maximize the meat per animal. Hunted meat is not caged for its entire life. It is a wild and free animal. It is a much healthier choice than eating store bought meat. Whether you feel it is necessary or not is irrelevant. Killing animals is nature at work. To threaten harm on someone because they hunt is 1) retarded, and 2) probably not the safest for your health.
You are free to choose your diet, as am I.
ONT Punter, I see you're up to your old tricks again. Animals are not wild and free if you're out there killing them. Leave them alone and I'll agree with you. Just this once though. Usually you're full of crap.
They are wild and free. They are free to walk wherever they please, eat when they want...there is no fence surrounding them. As a hunter, I have to use my skills to locate, track, pattern, and ethically harvest the animal. Its not like I just take a couple steps into the woods and theres 30 deer there to shoot. It takes weeks of planning and preparation.
Instead of just saying "no you are wrong, I am right" why don't you actually provide some factual evidence for your beliefs. Until then, all you are doing is spouting some first grader nonsense of "i know you are but what am I'.
Silly hippie. See above picture.....
The fact you call yourself "Peteyroo" is also nauseating......
Keebler-Anne, I see you're out of jail already. You didn't know she was only 12 years old. It was an easy mistake. Anyway, you're back on the street ready to shove old ladies in front of buses and prepared to burn down orphanages.
Wild game isn't always 100% organic; I've seen deer happily chowing down on apples and pears in the orchards near my house, places that apply herbicides, insecticides and non-organic fertilizers on a regular basis. Deer munching wheat and corn, also heavily sprayed with various chemicals; pheasants and quail helping themselves to those same wheat and corn fields and orchards. Or how about the elk that come to feeding stations in the winter and eat non-organic grain and hay? Unless you hunt waaaay out in the boonies, most wild game anywhere near human farms has probably eaten non-organic food somewhere along the line.
Hunted meat is healthier. Not only is it organic, but it's leaner and higher in Omega-3s.
Hunting is not cruel, it's the most humane way to get meat on your plate. The animal has lived a free natural life until being killed for food, it hasn't been in a cage or penned up.
Also, in many areas there are no natural predators (people living in suburbia tend to not want mountain lions walking through their backyards); either the prey-animals such as deer are hunted (and the vast majority of hunters eat what they kill); or they die of starvation and disease from being over-populated.
Hunting is also necessary for crop production. Deer do more than $100 million worth of damage to crops each year, without hunting that number would be significantly higher.
Everything you have said is 100% incorrect.
Went hunting once, then could not eat the meat. The connection with food and a life was too clear. A prime rib for dinner from an animal I never saw is easier to handle. The animal it was taken from would never have one day of life if no one ate
their meat. There is always a way to do it better if we would only try.
I'm sure little – maybe even none – of the animal's meat is wasted by hunters. But if you want to talk about making full use of the animal, nothing even comes close to today's factory farms, where every tiny scrap of the animal is converted into either food or some usable material. Everything – fur, bones, hooves, teeth – is processed until every useful scrap is recovered. If thoroughness of use is your metric, you simply can't beat highly industrialized farming.
torturing others is not accepted in the 21st century. We have plenty to eat and wear without using someone's teeth, someone's skin, someone's bones...
Lena, you are confused. ALL life is killing, even if it is just seeds. The energy stored in ALL forms of food is life. You can not exist without the killing of life. We are omnivores, we eat everything, and we have the teeth and digestion to prove it. You may not like the idea of killing, and I understand that. My own sister went vegan for several years, until health issues forced her back onto animal proteins. I understand your point of view, it is just wrong.
Nature is never "Fair". In nature the strong always eats the weak, and usually while it is still alive. The rules for eating in the wild are the same as the rules in a gun fight. "If you are in a fair fight, your tactics suck!" Stealth, speed, and overwhelming force are the rule, not the exception, and hunters kill with the most compassion, and the cleanest/ quickest skill of all predators.
And true hunters make more use of their kills than predators in the wild who will eat until full and leave the rest. We waste nothing of the meat, and might even mount the head if it is an impressive animal. Not to gloat, but more like a post card found along the journey. It is a tribute to the animal and a reminder of the hunt.
I carry a trash bag with me when I hunt as well. I clean up the trash left behind by the hikers, bird watchers, and PETA people who share the wild with me. And while hunting/ conservation groups buy thousands of acres of land for continuing conservation efforts, for the betterment of wildlife, PETA type groups protest, but buy no lands, raise and release no game animals (rabbits, pheasants, ect.) only predators such as the wolf program in Yellowstone. Which , by the way, is decimating the deer population in that area.
You are entitled to your opinion, and your lifestyle, as am I. But your reasoning is deeply flawed.
dear Kellory, you are confused... i sugest to reflect upon your life and the life of others instead of shooting. Just take a bowl of beans, a vegan humburger with quinoa on the side, a salad and for one day, go into the wilderness and try to see if you can observe nature in full. i guarantee you it's much better than looking for someone to kill and having blood drip throuhg your fingers.
Lena, I eat quite a lot of salads, and steamed or raw veggies, and I'm sure I am in better health than you. Being in the wild as much as I am, keeps me fit and strong. I am almost never sick.
I don't need to go out and contemplate life and death, I am already pretty good at both. (grins)
As for "blood dripping through my fingers" well, that is a fact of life during the butchering process, and I am an adult, I can handle it.
Fact of life is you would starve to death before a new crop could come up, unless you had a store house to hold product from past harvests. You can only go a couple of weeks without food. As a meat eater, I could hunt it, grill it, and eat it within a couple of hours. Your version is not sustainable without a sizable investment in land, buildings, and time. It requires a long term investment to be feasible.
"Torturing is not accepted in the 21st century"... what lala land are you living in? It may not be "accepted" to good people, but it goes on just the same. It seems to me to be quite accepted in the Middle Eastern and Asian countries, and it goes on in your town, too. In my own smallish town not too many years back, an evil man broke into a family's house less than 1/2 mile from a freeway, bludgeoned the parents to death in front of the children, kidnapped the boy and girl, took them out in the forest and raped and tortured them for a couple of weeks, eventually killing the boy. The only reason he was caught is that for some unknown reason he came into a town with the girl and someone recognized her and called the police. You can still see a lot of "KILL DUNCAN" bumper stickers around here.
The animals I raise and butcher for my table are not tortured, they are killed far more quickly and humanely than if a coyote got hold of them.
SixDungarees, I suggest you eat vegetables. It's healthier for you and for the animal.
Actually, in most cases, it would not be healthier for the animal. Most wild animals die before maturity from natural predation, disease, starvation, exhaustion, or road kill. Dying via a hunter is probably the best way for that animal to go, minimal pain, minimal suffering.
If most people had to kill their own game, skin their own game, butcher the carcass, etc, I bet you would probably see significantly less people chowing down on cheeseburgers. There's a lot of people who would simply be too squeemish to handle it. So i have NO problem with hunters who will in fact do all of that.
You would be correct. I grew up hunting, (I'm female, BTW), did much of the butchering, and after I went out on my own, raised food animals. If you can't do it, no shame in not eating meat. More for the rest of us.
Oh yea, and let me add that I tanned the hides as well, or plucked and used the feathers. If you've never tanned a hide, you are in for a treat.
i'm a female too and I was never able to understand how humans kill animals or humans. I wonder what kind of a mother or wife you are. it's kind of interesting, i don't know many females who hunt. to me it seems that something is missing there. Did you check your cholesterol level before being so proud of eating so much meat?
My cholesterol numbers have gotten better since adapting a primal-style diet (basically paleo + dairy). I eat more meat now, and very little grain. My numbers were never "bad", but they have moved more solidly into the "good" category. My good cholesterol HDL, which has nearly double in the last couple years, from barely over 40 to in the high 70s!
It's actually sugar and grains that inflame your arteries. Saturated fats from foods like coconut oil and grass-fed beef actually reduce inflammation.
Try reading "Good Calories Bad Calories" by Gary Taubes.
WOOOOOOOOOOOW....are you freaking serious?? You go on and on about evolution, and how women have rights now....and then you go on to say that you don't understand why a woman would hunt?? BECAUSE SHE WANTS TO!!!
And to question someone's mothering abilities based on meat in their diet is retarded....If you want to strip peoples parental rights, go after that couple that fed their baby nothing but soy milk because they were vegans. The baby died at 4 weeks of age due to malnutrition. Who's the crazy group again??
Sump, killing is wrong except in self-defense. Were these animals in your house attacking you? Or were you in their homes attacking them?
What is wrong with you? You spout this absolute nonsense that even your fellow vegans don't understand you. Humans are humans, animals are animals. Humans kill animals then eat them. If you choose not to partake in the partay, then suit yourself. I, for one, am going to go enjoy my deer steak, with wild mushrooms, wild green onions, and a bbq'd potato. Cheers!!
I am a long term vegetarian (30+ years), and I don't care what others eat. To me, this is not an ethical issue, it is a dietary one.
some are vegans for health reasons, some for compassionate reasons. I would say that being vegan only for health reasons is a bit egoistic (all about me, me, me.... better than eating the flesh of another being of course) That's why i disagree that hunting is not an ethical issue.
my health is a function of my diet. if you consider that egotistical, then fair enough.
lena: is hunting a greater moral issue than meat eating in general?
In my part of Virginia the deer population has exploded. It is not unusual for us to see 10-20 deer in our front yard. They are no longer afraid of humans and not the least bit "skittish". In the woods surrounding our property there is no green vegetation from 0 to 7 feet from the ground. The deer have eaten it all away. When we first moved here 23 years ago I was enamored of the Bambis but now I just view them as pests. That is why I decided to buy a crossbow and become skilled with it. I don't have to put on camo or get in a tree stand or cover myself in buck urine to get a deer. I just have to go out to my driveway and wait. In regular clothes.
My point is that the eco system has gotten dangerously out of balance when it comes to deer populations. The only natural enemy they have in this area is a Chevy. Hunting is the only practical and humane way to control the population. Otherwise hundreds of thousands of them will starve, succumb to disease or get hit by a vehicle (of those that do the lucky ones die immediately). You may consider hunting to be repulsive but in this day and time it is a necessary form of management. And if you eat meat it is a responsible way to acquire it.
Deer hunting was enjoyable when I was a kid. We ate what we killed. The eco-nuts should buy into this ancient custom for a couple reasons; 1) hunters, like fishermen, are not always successful (tv shows make it look as if they are and slaughterhouses are 100% successful), 2) hunters usually clean up after themselves because most truly enjoy the vista view of pristine wooded areas, 3) as you mentioned, hunters contribute millions to wildlife conservation endeavors in the several states (though most ends up in a general fund which is spent on domestic social programs) and finally, 4) hunters are generally salt of the earth folks who you can have a conversation with without mentioning religion or politics.
You know I find it interesting that some people think it is evolving to turn into a vegan.
It think they should really consider what that means. Look to the animals that you are supposedly trying to save.
Is your goal to be a happy simpleton? For instance like a dear? Their life is, eat, birth and stay out of jaws of a predictor.
When I look for the most intelligent animals on the planet almost everyone of them eats meat.
Now there is the elephant, very intelligent, and doesn't eat meat. And spends pretty much every waking hour eating.
Hmm have you noticed that about animals that eat only plants? They spend as much time as possible doing it.
So it seems to me that if your goal not to eat meat, must also be to spend all your time sitting around eating.
Wait that's right that is what most people are doing in the US, that is one reason they are so fat! (and stupid)
this is not true. Why mislead so many people by talking nonsense when you didn't even care to find out what and how vegans eat?
You're so, so close and bring up interesting points except the douchebaggery at the end was wholly unnecessary.
Let me just point out that everyone hunting their own food is unrealistic, unsustainable and downright dangerous. There are simply too many people on Earth to have HALF of the population hunting in this manner for sustenance, let alone a "way forward".
Anyhow, grasses and plants have such low nutritional value that you must eat a lot of it to reap the benefits of its digestion. And speaking of digestion, it's a difficult process and requires almost as much calories to process the material as it's benefit. Larger brains need protein. You need massive amounts of protein to sustain the human brain. Like it or not, we're meat eaters. We came out of those trees because we ate meat.
..why are we even having this discussion.
MoonWitch, there are a great number of healthy, intelligent vegetarians. Entire societies, in fact. Gandhi is one example. His brain seemed to function very well without ever taking in meat. I'm not a vegetarian, but I am intelligent enough to put two and two together.
that is an old believe. Most of these conclusions were made by studding only people who eat meat. Now, other information is revealed such as that we eat too much protein and it actually very bad for us; the animal protein is hard to digest and comes with cholesterol and other bad to health elements; we don't need to use so much energy for digesting the food if we eat the right food; we should use protein that does not require too much work from our digestive system and wears out our organs; our protein should have enzymes and not deprive the body of the enzymes; the food should make our body alkaline – a vegan diet is the perfect diet. In addition, a vegan diet has all the nutrients unless you eat only peanuts all the time. When you eat a variety of plant-based foods, you get all the nutrients you need and you do not feel sluggish after eating. I wonder, how come so many people do not do a simple research on who vegans are, how they feel, what they eat and how their life changed.....
Big difference between a Vegetarian and a Vegan...you should find out what either is before using it in a at most uninformative Post.
"There is not a single argument nor a single fact that can be offered in favor of flesh eating that cannot be offered, with equal strength, in favor of cannibalism." – Herbert M. Shelton in Superior Nutrition
What people eat comes down to individual choices, beliefs and one’s own traditions; PETA people accusing meat eaters and meat eaters abusing PETA activists are just arguments devoid of any logic!
PS: Hunting animals is slightly ethically better (for meat eaters, of course) way of getting one's meat for food, than purchasing meat from a grocery store.
Don't forget your PETA dues.
Abusing PETA people is fun, easy, and burns calories*
*calories burnt are negligible
BurntSoul, it is unethical to kill animals.
I have been a vegan for 5 years and a vegetarian for over 20 years. However, I do not have a problem with hunters...at least not the ones that hunt to feed themselves and their families. I do not agree with those that hunt for sport; that seems unethical to me. I definitely prefer hunting over factory farming and agree with a lot of the comments regarding the quality/purity of the food in comparison to the meat of antibiotic-fed animals available at the supermarket. I would not and could not hunt an animal being who I am at this moment but if I was starving, would that position change in order to survive? Most likely, depending on the environment and the circumstances.
In terms of the 'evolution' argument, I think it is a matter of respecting what you are given and what you take. If you hunt, respect the animal that is feeding you.
Very well said !!!
I applaud your point of view. Very well said. Probably the most realistic response from anyone in this discussion.
Very well said. I agree totally.
I'm convinced that Chris is not a hunter and unclear on the concept. As well as being someone who needs something to do besides the internet.
I hunt. I hunt for many reasons. It brings me close to nature. It expands my senses. It makes me feel more alive. It provides sustenance for my family that is nurishing and free of the chemicals used in modern agricultural production. It connects me to the circle of life that my ancestors participated in.
I like venison. I just finished some delicious BBQ squirrel. I contribute more over the course of a yr in Pittman-Robertson funds than Chris will in his lifetime to the cause of conservation. As well as providing habitat and food plots for wildlife on my own land.
Humans are designed to eat meat and as evidenced by the eyes in the front of our heads, are predators. To deny it is to deny your ancestral history..
As for the argument that hunting won't feed the world, you're right. A plague that killed about 1/2 the humans on this orb would go a long way toward solving the hunger problems we have. Humans have no self control when it comes to reproduction. And no cohesive strategy as a species for survival.
Well, no. Humans are omnivores, and are extremely well adapted to that role. We basically suck as predators, until you let us make weapons – we're slow, don't have claws, and don't even have teeth that can properly catch and kill things. And we can happily eat and digest all manner of fruits, vegetables, nuts and other non-meaty items. Millions of years of evolution has made us extremely broad spectrum eaters.
This article is not about whether hunting is ethical or not. We know it's not, but that's beside the point. Recently, there was an article on whether eating meat and fish was ethical. This article was written as an after thought.
Many issues with factory farming and fisheries have been brought up–damage to the environment, cruelty to animals, and health problems.
What is happening is we're experiencing a mind shift where rights are now given to others that were never there before. Or at least it's being discussed. Marriage equality, rights of the 99%, women getting equal pay. Plus we have an African-American in the White House.
And now the Vegan lifestyle is becoming popular. People are actually talking about the welfare and rights of animals.
People these are wonderful things. It means we are evolving.
On the other side there are the traditionalists that don't want change, nor do they believe in evolution, which is sad. There is a push-back on the positive changes. Articles like this are written to encourage people to stay on track with tradition. They not only discredit those who are making the changes, but also making an attempt to put a positive spin on activities like, "it's okay, what you are doing is ethical, it's humane."
This article even attempts to add a 5th reason, when the 5th reason is really apart of the 4th reason. I guess desperate times come for desperate measures.
Change will happen no matter how much you try to stop it.
It's all I have to say on this topic. Now to open up the minds of racists;)
Just because the vegan diet is becoming popular, doesn't mean that everyone has to do it. THATS MY RIGHT!!
There is nothing wrong with change. I fight for human rights, I've been to Afghanistan. I've seen what people have to live with over there. I also believe in tradition and heritage. It is a concept that is lost in many of today's youth. North America has lost its culture. Two countries built under the Christian beliefs have all but abandoned them. I am sick and tired of having to mold my beliefs to fit what is now "socially acceptable". Same thing with hunting. I hunt because I enjoy it. My father hunted, so did my grandfather, and so on. Hunting is a family tradition that does YOU no harm, therefore, bugger off and let me live my life. I'm not asking you to like hunting, I really don't care if you do. But do not dare try to trample on my rights to somehow fit your social agenda. My activities do not affect your life, ergo, do not interfere with mine.
ontPunter, slavery was once a proud American tradition as was massacring Native Americans. Care to defend that heritage?
So since you have no logical grounds on which to attack his argument, you try to link it to something totally unrelated and attack that?
For all your posts indicating how much smarter you think you are than everyone you disagree with, you really are lousy at this.
survival of the fittest . . .
Those are HUMAN rights issues, which exploited PEOPLE. I do not exploit an animal when I hunt it. They are free range animals with much better sight, aural, and sense of smell. They have the advantage in the woods, its their turf.
I capitalized the main points for ease of understanding. If that doesn't work, I'll break out the crayons and draw you a picture.
Interesting that you have basically equated the hunting of animals to the torture and enslavement of millions kidnapped from Africa.....Or in your eyes are the experiences of animals and generations of my ancestors essentially the same?
Jest & ONT Punter, you kill because you enjoy killing and you love the power it gives you. I suggest you match up against each other or against other hunters. You'd have the thrill of the hunt and it would be a fair fight instead of the cowardly way you now conduct your murdering.
you don't want to do it but it is the wise thing to do
Its wise because you say it is?? Lets be realistic. The farming of meat is never going away. There is too much at stake with the economy to start eliminating entire markets. Like it or not, humans eat meat. They always have, and probably always will. Your individual opinion is not going to sway the minds of 7 billion people who's opinion differs from yours.
Wrong. Here is why, if hunting were unethical, it isn't, NONE OF US WOULD BE HERE!
There is no end goal of humanity. What you think humanity should become is just that, what YOU think it should become. Luckily, I live in a free country and when I deem you are full of it, and you are, then I get to not participate in your endeavors and you get to deal with the fact that you don't even have the majority on your side.
Do what you want, let others do what they want,and the world will be far better because of it.
Make me do what you want, and you will never live another day without looking over your shoulder.
Pimped 4 Drinks, you're so full of crap you stink!
Primal: Blah, blah, frigging blah. Go home, boy, and get your shinebox
"we know it's not".... Ha! You say hunting is not ethical like it's scientific fact.... well let's look at it this way. Food web, humans are omnivores, it's normal for animals to be killed for food, etc. Your post is written as though it's a bunch of common sense fact, when it's very obviously a bunch of liberal propaganda. Sorry, I don't buy it. Guess I'm not "evolving" like you. You are free to be a vegetarian but don't tell me it's unethical for me to kill and eat my own meat. Even vegetarians are responsible for slaughter of animals – think what every farmer must do to keep pest animals from eating his crops. Animals will be intentionally killed to put food in your mouth, no matter what your diet. And you are probably too much of a wimp to grow all of your own food and completely sustain yourself without relying on some industry.
Also, you think it's sad if someone doesn't believe in evolution. Well, it is no nearer being proven than intelligent design/creation. I believe there is very obvious design in all aspects of life, suggesting a designer. It's up to opinion and you can think it's sad if I don't believe in evolution if you want. Yes things can micro-evolve to adapt to environment but I don't see it possibly going any farther beyond that. My opinion.
Now go back to eating your rabbit food and tofu blocks. Won't bother me, long as you don't tell me or anyone else they shouldn't hunt their own food. I will keep living the way humans have for thousands of years, an omnivore, and will enjoy the fruits of my labor from hours spent in the woods outsmarting wild animals that are probably smarter than you.
You know that is a great point. Not one oft these self righteous dolts could harvest an animal if their life depended on it. I feel like that is a blessing.
Ratman925, where do I start? It's going to take a long time to straighen you out. My non-hunting friends and I can take turns with you. You'd make our job easier if you had finished Third Grade! Oh, well, we'll try. One of us will teach you how to tie your shoes then review the task every morning when you report for class. Yes, Crapman, you're going to school. Having such a low IQ doesn't help matters either. Wait out at the curb for the short, yellow bus tomorrow morning.
I'm sorry but just because you think those things are good means absolutely nothing. The hunter gather lifestyle is superior to anything different we have today. Change, simply for change, is stupid. Always has been, always will be. We were put on this earth with absolutely EVERYTHING we needed. All we have done is make thing worse, as fun and as cool as things are. There is some very cool stuff out there these days. Trust me, I like my house more than the cave I will use if I have to.
Mother Nature is more intelligent than all of humanity combined. If you can't accept that fact, then you have not evolved at all.
Pimped 4 Pleasure, I suppose you enjoy pushing old ladies in front of city buses, too. What do you do for fun when you aren't burning down orphanages, or scoring child pornography at the park?
So agriculture is just a big scam, then? It wasn't necessary for the rise of civilization 6000 some odd years ago in the fertile crescent?
Animals have no rights. We as humans and stewards of this world have resposibilities to manage them in a cogent manner.
MOST people don't have the opportunity to try hunting. That isn't a choice. That's an accident of birth.
Eater of LimpSomething, animals have no rights because murderers such as yourself deny those rights. In a better world animals would have rights and you'd be back in jail with all your friends.
ethical or not – Who are you to tell me what is ethical ? I think it would be ethical for you wingnuts to mind your own business. I eat meat and I don't much care how it is made as long as it is safe for my family. Just how safe is your american GM soy and corn? Are you wealthy enough to go organic only? I wish I had your money . . .
I eat vegans.
And who cares what's ethical anyway? Good and evil are just words. I've never hunted but it looks like a blast. Too bad there's no feral pigs around where I live, just boring, baconless deer. I bet blowing a deer's brains out would be just as thrilling as offing a pig, though.
Male vegans?
Such a great discussion. The minds are really at work here. This is a christian country? Don't believe in evolution? The world is flat? (Oh, I was expecting to see that somewhere).
Believe what you will, but the one thing you all have to remember is there are no personal choices in this world. The fact is we are all connected. All life came from the same seed. First modern man came from Africa. Everything you do affects another. You can't escape that fact.
The continued existence of nature is important Without it we cease to exist. Without us, nature will grow and flourish. Better be compassionate and humane in a harmonious manner. The world will rid of us when it's had enough.
Vegetarians and Vegans are healthier, environmentally friendlier, and obviously kinder to animals. Vegetarians and Vegans have been around for a long time, longer than you are aware of. Many have lived happily on a plant-based. Killing any sentient being is unnecessary and unethical. Agree or don't agree, that's your choice.
And yes I'm a proud liberal tree-hugging, animal rights, human rights, environmental activist and democratic socialist. I embrace life and the equality of life.
If I've been rude or insulting I apologize, but I will always work for justice in any way possible.
You may have the last word. Too many things to do.
Peace:)
News Flash – You are not special, you are not better than anyone else, period. Your choices do not make you a superior being in any possible way. Nobody need ever worry about you and the way you think things should be.
used to be able to hunt, but now most land here leased out to doctors and lawyers, my guns are getting rusty, I have no permission to get in , cant affoard a lease. I'll buy the store crap
So apparently, according to vegans and vegetarians, mother nature made humans the only creature on the face of the earth that craves food that will kill them.
It is 100% obvious, to anyone with a functioning brain. that if we were meant to be vegetarian, we would be, without any argument.
too bad that there are many people like you who like meat too much to admit that there is something wrong about eating it. We are the only specie that can choose what to eat... and often time we choose what is not the best for us. Look at how many children are in hospitals with terminal illness, check how many more are now compared to 10 years ago, and check how the diet changed. I believe the animal products almost doubled in our diet. did you know, btw, that milk causes osteoporosis and is not a good source of calcium? The body requires more calcium to digest the milk then it gets from milk and it takes if from our bones..... Guess how many doctors know about it... I think Americans, who drink so much milk, shouldn't even know what osteoporosis is, instead, they suffer the most.
There is nothing wrong with eating animal products, period. If there was, the human race would be extinct.
You need to stop cherry picking your responses, In every single case where you have been proven wrong, you simply stop responding. That pretty much solidifies you are full of it.
No one cares that you are a vegan, and even less care that you want all of us to join you. Spend your time more wisely, you have so precious little of it.
and how would you know? do you worry that if you go vegan you will die? I actually wonder what is your interest to mislead so many people since yesterday morning. Do they pay you for that? I just hope you are not a cnn employee. That would be sad because people in the media should really be open minded and should know much more about a topic before commenting or making a conclusion. I mean you should learn more about veganism and not only find information that suits your ego and your believe and making conclusions according to your limited imagination. Your comments on veganism are so unintelligent.
Pimped 4 Life, we would not die out without meat. That is pure nonsense.
Sorry lena it is you who is misguiding people not me. Everything I have said is 100% correct, backed by science, and easily verifiable.
There is zero scientific evidence to back up that THEORY. Thats all it is, a theory. There's also the theory that so many parents shelter their kids from bacteria that their bodies dont develop an immune system. Kids that practically take baths in hand sanitizer, and are forbidden from getting dirty.
Its funny that you mention milk though, as I do not consume milk other than on my cereal. Mammals do not need milk after infancy. Humans are the only species that continues to consume milk into adulthood. All the nutrients found in milk can be substituted with a balanced diet of meat, fruits and vegetables.
Ann Thunter, what do you have against milk? I suppose you don't eat eggs either? You are so confused. I do feel sorry for you. Your family must be so ashamed of you.
I am not against milk, I just don't drink it.
lena is a nutcase. So you don't eat meat. Have you never had a leather product? Shoes? Purses? Is it OK for that cow to go without skin so you can have your things? You come in contact everyday with items made from animal products weather you eat them or not.
Since i became vegan I don't wear anything from animal products. There are so many things to wear and so many things to eat. Try to be vegan, learn what it is, research why people go vegan and maybe one day you will become enlightened on the subject. I was a meat eater and I am vegan now. I know both sides and when people think that they know everything I wonder how? Did you try to actually see how it is? It seems you don't even know that cotton is vegan and there are so many leather alternatives, there is absolutely no need to wear someone's skin.
@lena...so what exactly do you wear that does not exploit animals in any way? Every product we buy has an effect of animals, directly or indirectly. Polyester is petroleum based, do we really need to argue the effects of oil on the animal kingdom? How about cotton? How much forest has been torn down in order to grow something that offers no eatable value whatsoever. It doesn't matter if you don't wear leather, your clothing exploits animals just as much as the rest of us.
I agree that everything we use exploits that's why I choose to use things that are less exploitative and at least are not linked to murdering the animals (when a human being exercises their killing tendencies with no remorse). If you don't see a difference between being a vegan and a meat eater, I can't help. Killing animals is below human's dignity. It is not natural and it is cruel. It is another aspect of our arrogance and desire to dominate and cause pain to others. Every person should reflect upon this with an open mind. I noticed some people here don't even know that vegans eat a wider variety of foods than meat eaters..... and do not graze all day long, and many healed themselves from incurable deceases. Shame on those who know so little but like to stick to the past and their habits.
Huh?
Pimped 4 Life, really? Do rabbits and cows scare you?
I grew up on a farm and we slaughtered our own chickens, cow, pigs and sheep. We also hunted deer, rabbits, and shot depredating pests that endangered live stock and crops. A farm boy or girl knows where meat comes from and knows an animal dies to provide meat. Our forefathers hunted to feed their families and the farmers raised live stock to fed the city people. The hunters provide the funding to support wildlife hapitat and conservation. Would the hikers and other non-hunting sportsman accept an 11 – 20% excise tax on all there gear, accessories and pay additional fees to supplant the funds hunters provide for wildlife and the economy.
if the government wouldn't pay millions of dollars in subsidies to the unsustainable livestock industry, there will be enough for the environmental protection. it is also mostly the livestock industry that ruins nature, including the natural habitat of our wild animals. Why would we need the little money from the hunters when the government can pay much more if they would know how to manage the tax money better? Even humans would be healthier and less money would be needed in this area.
You want a link, fine. Google Joel Salatin. See how he runs his farm. If at that point you still object. We have nothing more to say to each other. I will wish you well and move on.
He may well be the greatest modern American farmer there is.
You are either nieve or a simpleton. The cost for wildlife conservation in 50 states is on the order of billions and the hunters provide most of that through excise taxes and licence fees and the money spent in the economy in pursuit of their hobby, sport and putting food on the table. To replace this the general populace would have to see an increase in taxes. It appears that the radical vegan and those opposed to hunting are looking through rose colored glasses and are to rigid in their opinions to accept others pursuit of happiness as guarented in our countries founding documents.
First of all, you chowderhead, the government doesn't bear the responsibility to fix all that you THINK is wrong with the world. YOU do. And secondly their funds are limited and must be stewarded to benefit their biggest contributors. Not the whiny vegans who contribute nothing to their campaigns and less to conservation.
I have no problem allowing you to eat what you want. Why can you not allow me the same courtesy?
Thinking ahead to Lena's wold of the future.......where will we be keeping all of the livestock after everyone stops eating them? Cattle aren't native to North America, and don't survive for long without human stewardship.
ErrorPants 2, we could still take care of them until they finally die of old age. It's not that tough.
we should make sure we don't artificially inseminate them as we are doing now... why multiply so many animals in so little time? maybe the livestock industry is dictating our food choice or what doctors have to prescripbe medications?
It actually doesn't. Humans became smaller when we switched to agriculture. A grain based diet is as bad as it gets for humans.
My goodness Primal4Life... when did we became smaller and switched to grains as a human race? If we changed our diet, it was more towards a meat dense one. Why don't you research a bit and find out how many animals we eat now compared to even 20 year ago. And don't be so mad.... it's a free country, everyone can say whatever they want.... but not everyone should do whatever they want especially when it comes to killing others.
Sorry, that is a scientifically proven fact. If you ever bothered to do any actual research, you would know that.
can you send me a link, I would love to read it
"Can you send me a link?" LMAO typical, pathetic, liberal, who has to be spoon fed and cannot be bothered to do any research on their own.
Sorry honey, I don't give people fish, I teach them to fish. Swim or drown, your choice.
Pimped 4 Life, liar, liar, pants on fire!
Are you a doctor?
Buying a weapon and shooting something long-distance is not a fair fight. Make that weapon yourself.
My greatest respect goes to those guys who catch catfish with their bare hands. They risk drowning to pull up huge fish that have poisonous spines.
*THAT* is ethical hunting.
You don't get out much, do you? There is no such thing as "A Fair Fight" in nature. There is life and there is death in nature, and they are pretty much the same thing. Survival of the fittest is the law of nature. And if other people were not creating food for you to eat, oodoodanoo, you would be gone in a week.
Tums, did you build your own house, or did someone build it for you? Did you built your own automobile, or did someone make it for you? Lightbulbs? Shoes? Gasoline? How many items did you actually build for yourself?
When you protest the sharks that eat seals, we can talk. Until then, shut your ignorant pie hole.
Bwahahahahha! I like it!
Set out to see nature in action. Try to get hold of some video of a snake swallowing another animal alive. Watch snakes and other animals killing their prey slowly. Watch some video and slides on animals freezing to death. Toss a canary into the air in an area full of hawks and other predatory birds, and enjoy the action. See the real world as it is.
I have access to a full cad mill and lathe. I can make any weapon I choose. So if I make it myself it's suddenly OK right? That is exactly what you are saying.
I suppose you believe that lions should eat each other instead of wildebeests and zebras. Hunting isn't the same thing as fighting.
I went hunting with Dick Cheney once
ouch
I hunted once and it sucked. We had to track a wounded deer for miles before we found it dead. It was hours of waiting just to do this. I couldn't stomach the skinning either. Made sense in pioneer days but not anymore. Factory farming sucks too. I'm so on the verge of becoming a veg. I don't care what they say about hunters and conservation, blah, blah. A wild animal has it rough enough in all kind of weather and terrain, with insect pests and a need to find water and food and avoid predation. Then add in all the hunters wanting to get a hard on over a pair of antlers and hunting is just stupid.
Hunters are just another predator yet you talk as if there would be no predation if there were no hunters. Most other predators eat their prey alive, hunters are the most humane of predators. G o ahead be a vegetarian, but until you do, some else is doing what you don't have the guts to do yourself so you have no right to criticize those with enough character to do it themselves and not cop out.
I am organizing a "safari of sorts", where we will travel all over the world killing all the predators: snakes, lions, tigers, cheetahs, panthers, crocodiles, bears, falcons, and so on. Then all the prey can reproduce with no checks and will have it really nice. Hope to see you soon, joining up with us to improve the world.
Don't forget all the skeeters and chiggers and ticks while you're at it, OK?
If you had done your part by being a competent marksman, you wouldn't have had to track your deer for miles.
+10
(Either s/he or whoever took the shot.)
I have hunted a few times, and it can be agonizingly boring, but I realize that deer who are are not killed by hunters are likely to die of starvation in the winter, disease, predation by non-human animals (mountain lions, wolves), and from being hit by cars. I do enjoy eating animals that were hunted by my friends and family members who are avid hunters.
If you shoot it, eat it. If you are not going to eat it don't shoot it!
Shooting an animal to hang it's head on a wall is NOT hunting or a sport.
I accidentally shot what I thought was a quail. It turned out it wasn't. I was really bummed, I don't like to kill things I won't consume.
It was a meadowlark, and I cleaned it, cooked it, and it was delicious.
That is my rule, if you kill it, you gotta eat it. I also do not hunt with people that do not use the entire animal. I may be on of the few people around that whole roasts doves, tiny as they are. It's worth the effort to me.
It is illegal to allow edible game meat to spoil. If a hunter does not want the meat, or does not want all of it, they can give it to someone or donate it to a soup kitchen. As long as the animal is being utilized, I really don't care why it was harvested.
Jeffrey Dahmer tried this but got a little mixed up on the "ethical" part.
I eat a plant-strong/vegan diet for health reasons, but am not opposed to people who want/choose to eat meat. I think hunting your meal is probably the most ecologically-friendly way to go about it instead of factory farming. It gives people a perspective on food that is lacking in this country. I grew up in Taiwan where we often serve fish, the entire fish, head and everything. This tends to freak out Americans who are use to seeing their food neatly packaged and saran wrapped. This article is a great reminder to people that the meat and dairy you consume come from other living things and that all life needs to be respected.
I am sure not too many people can be hunters and kill other living beings and hopefully many will choose a vegan diet. Killing is never right.
How fortunate we are that you've figured out the answer for us and have decended from your pedestal to share it.
Hunting for whatever animal-based protein they could get was what your ancestors did for thousands of years. If grocery stores disappeared tomorrow, you'd starve within two weeks, and I wouldn't have even consumed half of my last kill.
Absolute statements are often difficult to defend.
our shelves could be full of organic plant-based foods instead. A hamburger would cost around $30 if all the environmental damage in producing it would be counted. Our ancestors made a mistake, as they did with sacrificing, killing others, surpressing and dominating. Every time we had to erase one of these habits from human's behaviour, there were contradictions. I'm not on a pedestal, the ones who think that there is no room for new ideas, concepts and change are. All it takes is to say, what if it is time for humans to make a change. as a human race, we always had to do it. We should keep only what is beautiful from our ancestors. They also learned from their ancestors. It took one or a few humans to try the meat and start hunting that eventually was passed from generation to generation.
Just ignore her, she is as dumb as a box of rocks. Just read all her posts, she proves it with absolute certainty. She is a terrible human being imo. I don't respect anyone that decides for others what is right. If I could, I'd have her deported. She is a disgrace to all Americans.
The cost of factory-farmed hamburger is 100% irrelevant to the topic discussed here which is one person going out and hunting one wild animal that has nowhere near the environmental impact of an equivalent amount of beef. You're no better than some other folks posting here. You can't attack the logic of my statement, so you try to connect it to something completely unrelated and easier to take a swing at and attack that instead.
Also we're all alive so I don't think our ancestors made a mistake. I'm pretty sure they did PRECISELY what nature designed them to do.
OMG shut your ignorant pie hole. You have no right whatsoever to foist your ridiculous notion of what is right and what is wrong on anyone else.
Be a vegan, and shut up about it. Some of us don't ever want to join your side and never will. I tolerate you right not to consume animal products. That means YOU HAVE NO CHOICE but to tolerate those of us who choose to do so. It's called freedom. Something you clearly have no notion of.
AMEN!
Lena, are you not killing the plants that you eat? They are living things also. If humans were meant to eat nothing but plant based materials, we wouldn't have canine teeth. We are designed as omnivores, with the capacity to eat almost anything. If our meat diet wouldn't have worked we would have developed the means to fully digest plant material, but it was not needed as meat is a very compact and effecient form of nutrition! Most of us humans choose to eat meat, and I choose to kill what meat I eat whenever possible, as it makes me appreciate what goes into the meal. I have no qualms with people who want to eat a plant based diet, but please leave me to eat whatever diet I choose.
So killing not right when natural predators do it then? So Nature is wrong for having predators then? You aren't thinking clearly. Predation is nature's way and hunters are predators.
so killing a monster like Hitler or Dahmer would have been wrong to save a bunch of humans? You've been brainwashed, dearie.
Animals kill to live. Whether it's some poor screaming plant eaten by an elephant or a screaming rabbit eaten alive by a coyote. We all kill to live. Accept it.
As a child I grew up around hunting and fishing. I wnet antelope hunting one time and got mine, i enjoyed the experience, but there is no way I could have eaten all the meat so I ended up hunting for people to take some of the meat. Way more effort than what it was worth. That and the fact I believe having guns around the house is dangerous I don't hunt anymore.
I still fish occasionally but I figure the cost per lb of getting a fish if I do it myself is probably ten time that of getting it from the store.
I no longer hunt either, I found it boring and not worth the effort. I do eat meat hunted by others though. I still have a .22 and a 12 gauge for occasional target and trap shooting. It's a lot less dangerous than owning ad using a car, which I also do.
Cruelty is not ethical.
Nature is cruelty. Life and death are the same in Nature. Stop your whining.
Human hunters kill more humanely than any natural predator.
Amen, at least most intelligent hunters. My Dad survived during the depression, killing a pheasant a day (S.D. had over 60 million pheasants at the time). My brothers and I would jump fences and run like mad to get to a bird as it fell to the ground if it were winged only, so we could immediately kill it, and it would not lie there and suffer, and the meat would be wasted if it sneaked a few feet away and hid under the grass. We killed for the meat, and killed as humanely as possible.
You, and most of the hunters in this forum, are describing the best possible scenario for a hunter. And yet there is ample evidence of hunters who hunt purely for sport, relentlessly support predator eradication (which devastates the ecosystem whether you care to admit it or not), and couldn't care less how their actions impact the environment so long as they get their trophy kill. (Case in point: Alaskan moose and caribou hunters who are fine with wolves being wiped out because they are too narcissistic to realize that wolves are a keystone species without whose presence the ecosystem collapses.) I have no problem with hunters who take only what they need, who *actually* make sure that nothing goes to waste (though I've never actually met a hunter who doesn't leave most of the carcass rotting), and who respect the ecosystem *as it exists* and do not demand that the government change the balance of nature to benefit the human hunters. But do not attempt to insult your audience by implying that this is the status quo of the hunting industry. You are too easily proven wrong.
Except you offered not one shred of proof. Cite even one trustworthy source for anything that you claimed. I dare you.
And you haven't offered any proof to the contrary. Ergo, fvck yourself.
Offer a point. Provide examples. Or cite references. To do otherwise is disingenuous and incites the nener-nerner-nener that you have so wittily engaged in.
I made no claims, so I have no burden of proof.
Right back at you.
Jest, I see you have your head up your backside again.
Are you looking out through your belly button PettyPetey?
Few natural predators eat the the whole animal including the skeleton either. Distorting the true with lies only works for others who hate hunting like you do. The rest of us see the lies.
We killed and used all the meat. I never really understood people who killed for a trophy head, or fished, and upon actually catching the fish, threw it back in. I only speak of the mostly farmers who I knew who were very careful hunters, cared about animals, and cared about other people. Though, we did show some condescension toward the part-time hunters from the city who didn't follow ethical rules (perhaps not as much sneering condescension as you show towards all hunters, but condescension nevertheless).
any hunter that leaves game is breaking the law...period...hunters are full the management of wolves, like all species they need to be controlled or they take over....
watch a wolf kill a animal and tell me hunting is cruel....
any hunter that leaves game is breaking the law...period...hunters are for the management of wolves, like all species they need to be controlled or they take over....
watch a wolf kill a animal and tell me hunting is cruel....
I'm not going to read the whole inane back and forth, but will pose a question. If humans are supposed to subsist only on a vegetable diet wouldn't we, shouldn't we, be equipped with a rumen, a reticulum, an omasum, and an abomasum? And then there is that nagging fact that the human digestive system has no capability to digest cellulose. Darn facts...
Don't forget about the B-12 saga and complete protein. Many folks would have died in the last thousands of years without eating meat, insect and other protein sources.
Good point, but those days are now in the past. Time to move on. Stop killing animals.
Why? You've not convinced me with your stellar debating skills.
No.
if that what we need, I and many other vegans throughout the ages would be dead by now and we wouldn't be able to digest vegan food. B12 comes from soil, organic plant-food has it if not washed in javex. Maybe meat eaters eat more B12, but it doesn't mean they are not deficient. First of all, some of it is distorted in the highly acidic stomach due to the large amounts of acid required to break down animal porting. Second, the same acidic environment coagulates our blood, our red blood cells loose their negative charge, stick to each other and can't go through our capillaries. This alone prevents oxygen and nutrients to get to our bodily cells. On the other hand, the healthy red cells of a vegan person can bring in full the little B12 found in organic foods.
*some of it (and many other vitamins) is destroyed
ThE B-12 problem was established in the medical/Scientific community and a well know fact. Not sure where your info is coming fro?. Many people have problems assimilating B-12 due to pernicious anemia and low HCl. Animal protein has bio-available B-12. Persons from generations ago would not have had food/vitamin choices to accomodate these issues and this is the point.
The scientists also claimed that plant-based foods do not have the all the essential amino-acids and so forth. The problem is that they never researched into the vegan diet. It is not too late though, there are many, many vegans now and hopefully one day people in the medical field will start comparing vegans verses meat-eaters. Than they can say for sure... btw, according to a large Tufts university study as many as 40% of Americans have a b12 deficiency, most of their diets consists of animal protein.
Lena,
What is it you do for a living?
Medical/analytical research.
you don't have to be a scientist or a doctor to realize that food is what makes us sick or healthy.... And if you look a bit more into the science of a human body, you will realize how different kinds of denature protein destroys one's digestive system. Why rely solely on the opinion of doctors. Sometimes they don't have time to look into the new findings and research. Sometimes they don't want to accept they are wrong. Many people got off the medications and are still alive because they changed to a plant-based diet. If a plant-based diet can heal why does one need to be a scientist or doctor to figure that animal products cause diseases? btw, doctors also get sick. if they knew the secret, they would be healthier.
You use supplements. DO NOT lie about it and say you do not. There is no other way to get what you need, period.
Meanwhile those of us following the Primal Blueprint need not supplement at all.
our body is designed to digest fruits, legumes, whole grains and vegetables. If one has a variety of these foods, all the nutrients are included and the body doesn't have to struggle to break down the complicated denatured animal protein. I've mentioned earlier, all animal protein coagulates our blood – our red blood cells change their negative charge to positive and can't go through capillaries to provide oxygen and nutrients to our bodily cells. All of our decease start with unhealthy cells, and our cells start deteriorating when the blood can't provide bring to them oxygen, nutrients and remove the waste and Carbon Dioxide. there are many other detrimental side affect of eating animal protein including enzyme deficiency, cholesterol problems, excess denatured protein, constipation....
OMG you could not be more wrong if you tried. There is not a mammal on the planet that was meant to eat grains. Yes that is right, not one. Birds are the only group of animals that do well on grains.
Grains were never meant to be consumed by humans. In fact, consumption of grains is the reason we face widespread obesity. A whole grain bagel is worse for you than a doughnut for sobbing out loud.
Please just stop talking. You are doing nothing but harm to the people you claim to care about. Knock it off already.
I'm sorry but what did the Inuit in the Actic survive off of? Seal fat, Caribou, uhhhh animals! You are a complete retard.
Our bodies are meant to digest vegetables, fruits, and meat.
We are NOT meant to digest grains. If we didn't grind and cook grain, it would come out the exact say way it went in, and land in a nice pile of fertilizer. Grains spread their seeds by mammals eating them and then "dropping" them.
An example of an animal designed to eat grains would be a bird, and they have a specialized organ (gizzard) that they use with sand/pebbles to grind to grain so they can digest it.
Don't forget we have canines for reason—we were meant to eat some meat.
AvocadoDiablo, and I'm sure your boyfriend thanks you.
Nice homophobia, it shows what an evolved and enlightened being you are.
Killing wildlife is not a sport nor will it ever be. How can one say that killing wildlife with a high powered rifle is a sport?
Not all of us do it with a gun.
Are you aware of how sanctimonious you sound? The people that have to interact with you off-line must find you insufferable.
Jest, you shouldn't kill with anything.
How did your ancestors survive?
Humans are a predatory species. I kill to eat and thousands of years of evolutionary history are on my side.
You cowards who think killing wildlife with a high powered rifle is a sport are LOSERS.
And people who think it's okay for natural predators to kill and eat other animals but human animals cannot are irrational.
It is a sport. You saying it isn't doesn't mean a thing.
NEXT!
Punked 4 Life, are you saying that animals have no right to life? Are you saying that humans, based and their ability to kill at they please, have the right to kill? Might makes right?
I have no need to explain anything to those of your pathetic ilk. Enjoy being inferior to most.
Actually, there is no such thing as Animal Rights. The whole idea is a PETA myth that has no basis in fact or any notion of reality.
Humans have canine teeth to eat meat, it's in our DNA and thats why most culture do it. In fact predation is nature's way a fact you ignore daily.
PETA Members are Terrorists.
And hunters are murderers.
Obvious troll is obvious.
2/10
PETA does what they can to make the world a better place for all living beings.
It's the NRA that's actually a terrorist organization. A lot of lives lost because of their influence, most recently Trayvon Martin. They don't care about people, they just want to get as many guns into people's hands as possible legally and illegally.
Their days would be numbered if a lot of lawmakers weren't in their pockets.
So much injustice in this world:(
And all for money, like all corporations. Profit over people. Money over life:(
Hunters are anti-wildlife terrorists. They get off on smoking animals such as coyotes, wolves, cougars, bears, foxes, etc with their high powered rifles. They are cowards who love killing wildlife. They are not conservationists. Yes, they pay to slaughter wildlife, but that is because they have to. If they don't, they are breaking the law and killing wildlife illegally.
All of us are a million times better than you loser!
You're a cowardly LOSER. Do the world a favor and turn the gun on yourself you cowardly wildlife killer.
Nope that would be you. Faced with danger you would run away crying like a little girl. You could not be counted on for anything, by anyone.
I'll keep doing what I do as I am superior to you and your kind in every possible way, on every possible level.
Pnked 4 Life, the loser and low-life rat-b*st*rd is you my friend.
Nope it isn't. I am better than you in every possible way.
NEXT!
Pimped 4 Life, you can't help the way you are. Mother Nature denied you intelligence and imagination.
PETA is a Terrorist Organization.
Terrorists against whom? Murderous hunters?
Well I have looked in the law books, murder pertains only to the killing of another human. There isn't a single law on the books that attributes the killing of an animal as murder.
NEXT!
Pimped 4 Life, it's time to change the laws!
Lily is absolutely correct on her entire outlook of "hunting for your own dinner". She has a very good grasp on the subject. I was however confused with the word SPORT used in the poll. I chose hunting for sport and food because i took SPORT to mean for the challenge and enjoyment of being in the outdoors. I do not hunt to hang something on the wall but its always a great treat to be lucky or good enough to tag a mature animal while trying to fill the freezer.
It is nearly impossible to explain to ANTIs the meaning/feeling of hunting,killing, butchering and eating a wild animal. Personaly its a scenario of emotions. Excitement and a head full of adrenaline at the moment of the shot, a tinge of remorse at the sight of the lifeless animal, genuine gratitude for the earths gift and finally an awesome feeling of satisfaction while eating venison backstraps and drinking an earthy wine with friends or family. Not many things are as satisfying.
If you despise hunting, yet eat meat, you are a hypocrite. Unless you are a true vegan, (no animal products) you are a hypocrite.
I have been a hunter for as long as I can remember. I was raised to be as self-sufficient as I could be. I can remember helping to clean long guns at about 8 or 9 years of age.
It is free range meat, killed with the blessing of the department of Natural Resources, It cuts down on car/ deer accidents (thus saving lives), It is very lean, healthy food for my family, and it comes in a biodegradable wrapper (which can also be used),
It is no different than eating the meat provided by your butcher, other than your meat lived in a cage, while mine roamed free.
I am paying for ammo, weapons, permits, tags, gas, lodging, food and drinks along the way, camo clothing (expensive), blinds, deer stands, hiking boots (special), as well as taxes! All of this supports jobs and tourism. The fees paid to hunt pay for conservation efforts here and around the world. Hunters are the greatest conservationists you will ever meet.
@truthordare7, deer herds are uneven across the country. Some places they are more scarce, and in others there are unlimited deer tags available because the deer herds are too large! It has a great deal to do with the terrain, food, and predators. Coyotes, are a problem for young deer, and even mature healthy bucks can be brought down by them. (that has been proven on camera). In answer to your question, Yes, control the predators, and there is plenty for all.
Keep in mind as well, there are hunting seasons (allowed dates to hunt) beyond those dates (set by the state and DNR) you may not hunt. The only animals that can be hunted year round are coyotes, groundhogs, and wild boar (which are not indigenous to the United States, and the DNR want eradicated. (they destroy the habitat of many other creatures).
And even for Boars, I must have a valid hunting permit (fees and taxes) I am a hunter, and proud of it!
Kibbles, you're proud of killing things. How admirable! Are you compensating for a small endowment? Or perhaps you wet the bed too much? You feel inadequate unless you have absolute power over life and death for animals?
Says some dolt whose only lay ever was a potato chip.
Punked 4 Life, say hi to your mom for me. Tell her I won't be able to see her tonight.
If you want to be with my mom, more power to you. I mean I love her, she is my mom, but GROSS!
Seriously, if you can do that, but not hunt, you have serious issues the like of which the world has no answer for.
Punked 4 Life, yet you continue to give answers.
We are proud to be human and it's in our DNA to kill to eat. We have canine teeth for a reason. You are fee to deny this and not to follow your destiny if you like, but your judgment is meaningless to most of the rest of us. I am sure you oppose all fishing as well.
AvacadoDiablo, are fish animals?
Peteyroo
"Kibbles, you're proud of killing things. How admirable! Are you compensating for a small endowment? Or perhaps you wet the bed too much? You feel inadequate unless you have absolute power over life and death for animals?"
Limperoo, Why yes, yes I am. It takes great talent and skill to do what I do. But don't worry, With unlimited practice and those round pointed scissors they taught you to use in kindergarten, you too might one day be able to sneak up on your dinner successfully.
" Are you compensating for a small endowment?" I am afraid so. You see, in my family, anything less than 24 inches IS considered small, and at only 18" I am thought of as the runt of the pack. While most of the men in my family can wear crew socks, I must wear knee highs to keep the tip warm while I hunt. But that is my cross to bare.
" Or perhaps you wet the bed too much?" How much IS too much? What is your limit?What amount do YOU find acceptable?
" You feel inadequate unless you have absolute power over life and death for animals?""You are right, you know....The bunny rabbit made all the right career choices, and got the big office that I wanted. So in revenge I snuck out in the middle of the hunting season, and went Postal on every living thing I saw!
Limperoo, Elementary school children could give you lessons in Mockery. You suck at it, Give it up
Lol. Wow, I can remember when I was 3 years old. So, you were hunting when you were 3? Or do you just have a really bad memory?
Wow, a lot of nastiness directed at hunters.
I don't hunt on state game land, I hunt on tribal land. My mom's people have hunted since time began. We have very strict rules about what/where/when and how to hunt. None of the animals are trophies, all of the animal is used for food of clothing. We honor the animals spirit upon it's death. So, am I going to get told how wrong it is for my tribe to still hunt and keep some of our ancient traditions? Probably.
Native Americans are a different story.
Way to be a racist.
Typical clueless liberal hypocrite with ZERO credibility.
Punked 4 Life, Native Americans have a completely different relationship with nature. The illegal immigrants who arrived on these shores starting with Columbus changed evgerything, and not for the better.
If you really think that Peteyroo, then you should really leave this land. If not, you are noting but a hypocrite, period.
So Native Americans are entitled to hunt, but the rest of the human race should do away with it?? Humans are humans. We are hunter/gatherers by nature. Only in recent history have we evolved to the commercialization of produce. People would grow what they needed for the year, they would hunt what they needed for the year....Its who we are as human beings. If you choose to succumb to the commercialization and privatization of food products go right ahead, I will still be in the bush doing what I love. I love to be one with nature, I love the thrill of the hunt, and I love the taste of wild meat. I love knowing, as I look at my plate, that I killed that animal, cleaned it, butchered it, and cooked it for my family's consumption. The fiddleheads next to the steak were hand picked by me, the blueberry sauce for the meat was made from fresh blueberries picked by me in the wild. That is what hunting is all about. Its not just about the kill.
Native American's have no more relationship with nature than anyone else does.
Humans impact their surroundings and always have to fit what they want. Native Americans are no different. Oh, BTW, PETA is a terrorist organization.
Tums, wrong twice.
You respect what you eat when you have to do the dirty work yourself. Thought two, we should eat invasive species; wild pigs, Asian Shrimp and asian carp. There are millions of wild pigs destroying the US and Asian shrimp are eating the native gulf shrimp. Asian Carp were brought here as a food source, I know they don't sound or look appealing but carp handled well is decent.
Agreed! Unfortunately for me, I live in one of the few areas where there are no wild boar at all. If they were anywhere near me I'd have one in the freezer every year. There isn't much better than providing for yourself from the plains to the plate. I love knowing that I was involved in every aspect of my meal.
The difference between myself and vegans/vegetarians, I would never even consider forcing them to join me. They, on the other hand, have no trouble at all trying to force us to join them. They have no concept of what freedom means at all.
Punked 4 Life, no one is forcing you to do anything. If you can live with the immorality of murdering animals you don't need to survive, be my guest. Just don't claim it's right or necessary.
Ah but it is right, and it is necessary. That fact that you think otherwise, is 100% irrelevant.
There is only ONE way to know for sure what you consume is safe. That way is if you do the harvesting yourself.
Punked 4 Life, balderdash! That is absolute nonsense, my confused friend.
Sorry but you are the one who is wrong. It's OK though, it's clear you like being wrong.
Punked 4 Life, are you willing to take on a grizzly bear with no weapons other than you hands and your wits?
Thanks for a well written article. As a hunter, I feel a connection to nature that I never do when merely observing from the sidelines, as you stated so eloquently. I love being afield with my english setter, and upland game birds like pheasants, grouse, chukars, quail, etc. are flat out delicious!! Much, much better than anything I can buy in a grocery store. I enjoy the whole experience of hunting and make no apologies for it. Humans have always been hunters and active participants in nature, and always will be. There's nothing barbaric about that. It is one of the most supremely honest pursuits in life.
I agree about hunting. Responsible hunters hunt only what they need and it is great food. I can't understand hunting for sport. There is nothing sporting in hunting an animal that has no defense against a high powered rifle with a scope which many hunters use. A sport would be hunting big bear with a single shot musket.
Hunters are murderers! Are you OK with that? I suspect so. Don't pretend that you are doing good.
You are nothing but a moron, period. There is simply no other way to describe your patchiness.
Punked by Lifers, your head is up your backside, my friend. When you are sitting in a bar getting loaded with your buddies, do you talk about how you plan to kill those who have no power to stop you? I suggest hunters hunt each other. It would be fair. You are too cowardly to do that.
You're a worthless cowardly filth who kills wildlife with his high powered rifle while dressed in camo. You love killing animals don't ya you anti-wildlife freak?
A harvest on hunters? A lot of people would support that. The cowards who kill wildlife love shooting at targets that can't shoot back.
You know what, I will agree to that, so long as you participate. I will even give you a far better rifle than I use. It would bring me great pleasure to remove your 100% flawed DNA from the gene pool. As an expert Marine sharpshooter,I won't even be a little bit worried. You're welcome for the freedom btw.
What, you don't want to do that? Big surprise cowards. At least you know that you would be owned.
Punked 4 Life, sounds good to me, my cowardly friend. One rifle (open sights), one pistol, and one knife. Scopes are too cowardly. You can bring your grandmother to read the map (topographical) and carry your ammo. We'll start 25 miles apart somewhere in Big Bend Nat'l Park. We can only have what we carry, except of course whatever your grandmother can carry for you. To give you any semblence of a chance, I'll wear a fluorescent orange jumpsuit and you can wear desert camo–just to even the playing field a bit. Also you can wear a bulletproof vest and I won't. You can have night-vision goggles as well (granny, too). I won't need them. Let's see what else. Oh, I'll go barefoot while you wear boots. That should make it even. Bon chance!
LMAO bring it peon. you have no chance. Please make sure your last will and testament is in order, you will need it.
You will never even see me.
Punked 4 Life, I won't see you because you'll be cowering behind your grandmother. I'll make it even more fair. You can have a quad-four (or whatever they're called). That would be noisy and I'd spot you, or should I say hear you, immediately. No, I think a golf cart would be better. They're quiet, but where would you charge it? I'm just trying to level the playing field. I could blow a whistle every few minutes, so you could hear me. I could carry a squealing pig under one arm, or maybe tie one arm behind my back. There's just no way to give you a fair chance.
primal 4 life is a coward who enjoys shooting at things that can't shoot back. You are a worthless and spineless coward.
Imagine PETA hunting hunters....boy that would be fun.....Peta would be gone from the planet in a month...maybe less
Don't be silly PettyPetey, you can't "murder" an animal. And the Disney Cartoon watching PETA Terrorists are some of the dumbest people on the face of the Earth.
Tums, explain why not, please.
Whoops, I misspelled avocado. The devil is in the green details.
Is a Bobcat a murderer then? A Cougar? A hawk? An Eagle? A snake? Only an infantile mind sees things is such absolutes while ignoring the numerous facts to the contrary. Grow up and put away childish beliefs.
AvacadoDiablo, only humans can murder.
Murder is the killing of a person, by a person.
That is why abortion is not illegal, because the fetus is not considered a human life yet.
How many animals were killed when they tore down the forest to build that tofu factory??
ONTpunter, murder is a human killing anything alive in an unfair fight.
@Peteyroo...can you show me that legal reference please? Oh, thats right, the law states that murder is a human killing a human.
If hunting is murder then I'm ok with murder.
What's your take on hunting cowards with high powered rifles who love killing things that can't shoot back?
hunting is murder. tasty, tasty murder.
I've decided to start hunting thanks to the postings of ease and peteyroo.
Who made you God?
I guess it's okay to be a cannibal. Humans are their choice of food. Who am I to tell them their way of life is wrong. Guess all life is up for grabs.
as long as they don't eat you, why bother..... Who cares about others. It seems that you are among those who do not reflect much upon what they say. I'm sure you wouldn't be such a hero if you were the victim. There are many tyrants throughout the history who begged for forgiveness when their life was in danger.
You do know I was being sarcastic. Don't understand your comment.
Back to sarcasm.
There are many cannibals out there who are looking to feast on anyone. Maybe the hunter becomes the hunted. At least it's a level playing field. Now you can call it a sport;)
Or if you're real brave, you would kill the animal with your bare hands. Real courageous killing defenseless animals. Not much of a sport.
Sorry that was supposed to be a reply.
Have you heard of Ted Nugent. Many have done it, but a quick and merciful method is best.
Ted Nugent is a low-life rat-b*st*rd.
Emotionally stunted terrorist. PettyPetey, you are in need or a Thorazine drip.
Tums, I'm in need of a decaf drip roast 20oz tumbler of coffee.
The only thing going drip right now is the blood from my half cooked deer steak smothered in montreal steak spice. mmmmmmm mmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
You say that sarcastically, but no joke, hunting and killing an animal unarmed would be totally awesome. Boxing a deer to death or snapping a bear's neck would both make for great hunting stories.
Great article. Like was stated most birdwatchers, hikers, and bikers don't realize the land they use to pursue their hobbies was probably paid for by hunters. In my home state of PA gamelands are bought using only money earned from selling hunting licenses.. But sadly most dont realize this
We do realize the blood money from hunters is used for conservation and other worthy efforts. We prefer that the money come from elsewhere.
I'm gonna buy an animal and kill it just to make you unhappy.
"I do not see why man should not be just as cruel as nature." – ADOLF HITLER (Vegetarian)
yeah he was dumb as rocks when it came to ethics but I will NOT stoop to the level of including that cretin in my thoughts. Sorry. Omnivores can stand proud without sludging down to that one.
Hitler was NOT a vegetarian. That's a myth.
That is a lie and a falls quote. Lying is unethical, not hunting, but anti-hunters are liars.
Go ahead and drink the cool aid.
Well if you really want to be 'ethical' you should only hunt with a spear or bow and arrow that way your skill set is almost equal to that of your prey. If you are just sitting up in a deer blind or whatever you're just 'killin' you're not 'huntin'
Um, Human's advantage is intelligence and the ability to work in groups to develop things like weapons. Since they all evolved on the same planet, its not really an unfair advantage. Also an interesting fact is that in pure biomass bacteria make humans look insignificant.
So Jake, it was okay when some nations who had guns landed on other countries and shot/massacred the people of those lands because they did not have guns.... same logic? And intelligence means that humans have the capability to make an ethical and humane choice on the way they act, including the choice to kill or not to kill. Its called evolving after learning that an act is not desirable or fine....
So Ms Berry, now that humanity has you here to look back and decide for us what's right and wrong, I guess we can all just turn off our own free will and default to you. How wonderful.
On second thought, I think I'll continue to make up my own mind and leave you alone up on your high horse.
Or if you're real brave, you would kill the animal with your bare hands. Real courageous killing defenseless animals. Not much of a sport is it.
Who cares about sport? Sometimes you just feel like eating meat, and the deer in your back yard happens to be closer than the grocery store. No different from picking an apple off a tree.
I don't know how it works. Lets say for example all the population of the meat eaters decided to adopt your point of view and go hunt for their meat, would there be enough game to feed them all? Now, instead of 12.5 million hunters, you suddenly have 150 or 200 million hunters looking for their share of the meat. Can the wilderness support such a vast number? Just curious.
We humans are destroying everything. Human overpopulation, terrible human activities, encroachment on natural lands. Nature is more important in that without it, we would not exist. Without humans, nature would grow and flourish.
We need to curb our arrogance.
Humans are truly the most dangerous and dumbest animals on the planet.
D'accord!
I think your mindset is fabulous and I wish it would take root in more in the mainstream. This is the ultimate conclusion that we all must come to. It's no longer feasible to be living like this and more needs to be done to educate the masses about the threat of the weight of our own population.
I want to point out that the Earth has no concern for the success or failure of any living species and it will almost never be void of life within the next 5 billion years no matter what climate "catastrophes" occur. Your stay here is pointless, meaningless and without ultimate conclusion. There is no purpose, product or rational reason for your existence other than a collection of clever mutations. Go ahead and have your nuclear war, in fact. The Earth will live on and so will countless species to take your place. Continue this unsustainable population growth and continue your exploration into the realm of disease and gene manipulation. Continue to cling to myth, superstition and faith and I promise you, you will receive the culling this species so desperately needs.
...Oh. Ain't going to be pretty, by the way. Hold steadfast to your resolve, you're going to need it.
Viva Nepal!
Humans are the only animals that make halfway decent conversationalists.
Absolutely not. If most Americans had to directly feed themselves in this manner, a good 80-90% of you would starve. Some within a week.
However, ethical hunters do more conservation work than any of the people commenting here telling us all what we should eat do. Go talk to someone from your local Elk's Lodge and see how much work they put in to maintain the herds they hunt. They won't even bother with telling you what their license fees paid for, they'll tell you about the work they did with their own hands.
SO what, most people don't want to hunt and that is their choice.
So don't, that's fine. It's not required in modern society. But the original comment asked if the environment could support all of us hunting and it obviously couldn't.
It's the anti-hunting folks that are trying to force their agenda on hunters, not the other way around.
yet ANTIS say Archery hunting is the most cruel form of hunting...which is it ?
Seems to me animals eating each other is the cruelest way of hunting/killing. Wolves ripping a partially-born elk calf out of its dam and tearing it apart, or bringing down a derr etc and ripping out the rear end and guts first while the animal is still alive. A well-placed arrow or bullet is much more quick and merciful.
Obviously I meant "deer" but can't edit after posting.
Lady – get a spear and some rocks for weapons, then get close to naked like our ancestors in some nasty weather, and starve yourself for a few days before going on the hunt. Then it will be a fair fight. You have no idea how to really hunt and we haven't since we invented scopes, electronics, gortex and portable 3 room tents. Your senses are not even involved. You just took a walk in the park to kill a living creature just because it was your pleasure and not because you had to in order to survive. Shame!
First, why don't you try to harvest wheat without any tools and see how you fare?
You missed the point and I'm gluten free.
Go make some tofu from scratch then. You missed the point too.
I have a friend who actually did that back in the 80s.
It was challenging, but he got the deer. I respect him for that.
the ONLY tool he had was a simple hunting knife.
Frankly, I think getting one's meat honestly (and yes some of us do need non-bean protein) is better than the supermarket deception.
Unfortunately, your logic is a bit off. Humans would hunt in packs. They would track an animal, and then chase it at a steady jog. Because furred mammals do not have the ability to sweat, they over heat after running for so long. Humans are built to run. It would not be long before the group of humans had the animal surrounded and killed. This form of hunting causes incredible stress on the animal, who is basically dead from exhaustion. Is this how hunting should be carried out?
You've obviously never hunted. It's not as simple as taking a "walk in the park". If you put in the time and effort to actually find out where the deer are going to be, then the oppurtunity may present itself. After you climb a tree and remain motionless and quiet for several hours. Then, if an animal even decides to come by, you still have to make the shot. Which by no means at all is easy. You use all of your senses to hunt. No matter how rich you are and no matter how much technology you use.
No, but I get meat from someone who does
No, but I want to
That is me to date. Both of the above.
I'd have to get to be a crack shot before I did this. I want the animal death to be as painless as possible, which means I'm closer but not quite ready. Humans do mainly need meat or fish in their diet. I'm alll for vegetarianism, but veganism needs too many artificial supports to be realistically viable. And sometimes even with those, it fails.
I don't want to eat supermarket factory farmed meats. Whether a hunter shoots dinner for me, or a responsible sustainable livestock person provides me with goat or lamb or poultry, it is part of a good healthy humanity. Yes, we can stop eating meat and take the toll in health. And indeed many of us in the First World eat too much of it. So, I'll eat it responsibly, without tossing my health to risk. When I am ready to hunt on my own, I will.
I like what you're saying. I became a crack shot (minute of angle at 200 yards) with careful hand-loading and practice with the 30-06 before I went hunting, for the same reason you stated: I felt it my responsibility if I was going to hunt to maximize the likelihood of a clean kill.
Lily – Very nice article. Yes, I hunt but there is much more to it that just Food and/or Sport. I love a hunt that ends with organic game meat in my freezer but most of all I just like being out in the woods with friends, family, or even alone. I've come back from many "unsuccessful" hunting trips with a big smile. Unfortunately, a lot of folks don't understand that wildlife conservation is funded primarily by hunters. Not to mention the big economy boost brought to small rural towns that rely on motels, restaurants, sporting goods stores, and other local businesses to get busy during hunting season. Sure, there is the occassional poacher, unethical hunter, or unsafe d-bag our there that gets some media attention and gives the other 99% a bad name. But if you take away the hunter, wildlife management and conservation will suffer. A perfect example is the Yellowstone elk herd. What used to be the mother of elk herds has been decimated by over 70% since 1995. The main reason? Wolves were introduced and management was not allowed by individual states under the endangered species act. The wolf population blew up and killed 1000s of elk and most of the moose in YNP. Anti-hunting groups were able to sue and sue to keep these vicious killers on the endangered list many years after a full recovery of the wolf. The hunter was taken out of the equation and now deer, elk, moose, and sheep quotas have been severely reduced in the states of Montana and Idaho. Smaller quotas equals less money for wildlife conservation and less money for local business. Everyone suffers...except the wolf of course.
Thank you, excellent points.
humans should not interfere with nature. We started hunting and made a havoc of everything. Don't cut the forest for pastures and farms and we won't have to introduce wolves. Every time man introduce something, something else went wrong. If we humans don't destroy nature for our egoistic purposes, there is nothing to be fixed. If nature needed us to help, we would be manufacturing babies in a mother's womb. Nature is perfect as long as human's don't do something unnatural. No need for hunting, just be vegan, take as little as possible from nature and put the guns away. It is not a toy and our children shouldn't even know about them.
In that case, humans need to stop reproducing immediately. We're at 7 billion and growing. It's an unsustainable number. How many children do you have? your friends? Zero Population Growth is too much now, we need to shrink our numbers drastically.
How many people do you know who are willing to have one child? or none?
Um, every single person on earth can fit inside the state of Texas with room to spare. The notion that we are over populated is complete rubbish. A myth put forth by evil eugenicists who wish nothing more than to be free of what they deem unworthy people. I believe the tern they use is "useless eaters."
So the way to be "natural" is to become vegan and abandon what our bodies were built to do? Sounds unnatural to me. Humans are hunters/gatherers by nature...So lets shut down the farming and supermarket industry and let everyone fend for themselves, like the good ol days. We'll see how long your beans and corn last when the looters come to steal from you and you have no firearm to defend yourself.
Every study has shown that in the event of a significant natural disaster, people who hunt, fish, and know the woods are the most likely to survive. You enjoy your processed tofu, I will continue to do what I was made to do...hunt, fish, and enjoy the outdoors. Cheers!
Ethics has nothing to do with how anyone obtains their daily meals, unless they are stealing or lying to get them. This author needs a dictionary and a cheeseburger.
A bunch of self serving crap. No mater how the animal is treated you still kill it. Making it fell better before hand doesn't make a difference. In highly populated areas where there are few animals, this will not work. Also, giving guns to more people isn't exactly safe. Animals get diseases too. Suppose the animal you kill is diseased and you can't tell then what? What about individuals in the meat industry put out of work?
Hunters seek to protect land from development, preserving and or expanding roadless areas in order to maintain a natural ecosystem. Besides, the whitetail deer has proven to increase it's population density in suburbs and other areas where humans have encroached upon their territory.
Hunters buying guns to hunt is perfectly fine. Criminals, miscreants and others having guns can lead to problems....but they cannot obtain guns legally, if they can't get it legally, what makes you think they would obey other laws?
Animals do get diseases, and hunters have been at ground zero for preventing prion diseases such as CWD. Beyond that animals can spread disease locally to crops and watersources. If hunters are hunting and controlling the population while additionally providing valuable feedback to local biologists those diseases can be controlled and eradicated.
What about the local communities that depend on the money spent by hunters, fisherman and anyone else that use the land that hunters had a part in protecting. Studies have shown that the outdoor industry contributes over $600B (that's a B for billion) annually to the economy. This is from hunters, bikers, skiers, snowboarders, birders, hikers and anyone else who seeks to enjoy our national forests, wilderness areas and other public lands. Further since 1937 the Robertsman-Pittman Act (an excise tax levied by hunters on themselves) has contributed over a billion dollars to conservation. Hunters through the purchase of guns and bullets are taxed for conservation. Hunters through the purchase of licenses and tags contributes to conservation. Hunters who travel to communities to contribute to local economies. Hunters who are members of conservation organizations give their additional dollars to conservation.
Without all the people (who are mainly duck hunters or their friends) contributing to sources such as Ducks Unlimited - I doubt there'd be many ducks in our skies today.
How many ducks do you suppose there'd be if no one killed them?
I am about to go make a perfectly grilled T-Bone steak from a local grass cow. With every delectable bite I will be think about the look on poor lena's face. It will make every bite even that much more delicious.
Saturday I will be slow cooking two entire beef shoulders, (Texas clod,) I will dedicate them to lena and mike. Then I will serve them to my many guests and they will enjoy their best meal of the week.
I'm sure that some people had your reaction – to do what they like doing even if it might be wrong. But some will think about it and research. I love open minded people who think. I love you too but I don’t respect that you are going to eat a cow. And please, do not dedicate someone’s shoulder to me or mike… Dedicate it to your ego. Cheers. I have to go now.
nice, lena.
IT ISN'T WRONG, PERIOD. You simply think it is, that doesn't mean anything. You are nobody, you have no say. You have no authority whatsoever to deem right and wrong for anyone but you. Get that through your feeble little mind. I don't tell you you must hunt, you do not get to tell me I can't hunt, period. There is no other choice.
You can keep lying to yourself to feel better but that is all you are doing.
ohhh, it seems I got you mad... sorry. If we were living only 300 year ago when some were killing 'innocent' others on a guillotine pretending to protect the society and you where among the procecutors, we would have the same conversation: you would tell me to mind my own business and not to tell you not to kill.
You are G D right I am mad. I don't foist my lifestyle on you. I absolutely DEMAND that you do not foist your lifestyle on me, or anyone else that doesn't agree with you.
In a FREE COUNTRY, that is absolutely a reasonable compromise.
Wrong answer Punk Man. We have a moral duty to call you out and expose you as a murderous slimeball.
Well I do not respect you at all. None, nada, zilch. You don't even deserve to live in America with your pathetic attitude. If it were up to me, I'd toss ya out like trash.
Pimped 4 Life, what? You're not inviting me to your barbecue? I'm hurt. I'd like to see who is so depraved and mentally ill that they would hang out with you. It takes a special person I am sure. Are you all going to show off your rifles and pretend that you're big-game hunters? Perhaps you'll swap tales of tracking your kills for days through dense underbrush while dodging crocodiles and komodo dragons. Hunting is dangerous. You can skin your knee or get a sticker in your finger.
"I luv T-Bone steak". Dan-carnivore.
Not much to be proud of... cannibals love eating human flesh.
Amen brotha
Ignore lena, she is nothing but a vegan troll with no respect for any other way.
Punked by Lifers, don't be such a hard-nosed pain in the backside. You're overreacting to everything, my bedwetting friend. The last time I saw you, you were passed out on the floor of the Dew Drop Inn, a notorious "Gentlemen's" club catering to low-life losers such as yourself. You are overcompensating for your obvious character flaws by being such a rabid killer/hunter.
Lena, let me wax philosophical for a moment. For sake of argument, let's forget about all the cruel and abusive methods used in the raising and slaughtering of animals. These methods are both inhumane and unethical. But now, let's say a cow , chicken, etc. is raised humanely and enjoys a relatively good life for a year or two and then slaughtered for human consumption. Apart from the need of humans, the vast majority of these animals would never come into existence. What do you suppose the animals preference would be, non-existence or an enjoyable life followed by harvesting?
Just imagine that you are that chicken... Would you be ok if someone would raise you in a palace just to kill you at the end? Can we imagine the pain of how being killed feels like? The nervous system of an animal is the same as of a human. Why dominate and kill when we can be much healthier and happier by eating a vegan diet. It's just a matter of relearning.
Yes, being the chicken I would choose an enjoyable life over non-existence. The great caveat here is that the animal has no concept of it's eventuality. Here's another eventually: everything dies once.
Dan, I love hypothetical questions. I have a gun to my head, on a desert island and I am the last man on the planet. LOL, In all seriousness, I think the cow would prefer to not be killed and live out its natural life. All domesticated farm animals existed as wild animals before man domesticated them. They do not need us to exist.
I think you would concur that were it not for human needs the vast majority of these animals would never exist.
Dan, you can make that same argument about slaves and African Americans. Without the institution of slavery, the slave trade and slave auctions, almost all African Americans would not exist today. I do not believe African Americans today were request that their ancestors suffer through the brutality of slavery so that they can exist today. Your argument is flawed.
"For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, he who sows the seed of murder and pain cannot reap joy and love." Pythagoras, mathematician, vegetarian
Do you have a coexist sticker on your car?
LMAO!
Do you have a Bush Cheney sticker on your car?
I don't have any bumper stickers on my car, but I LIKE the Co-Exist one. As a future hunter and a current sustainablly farmed meat & seafood eater, do you have any difficulties with co-existing?
That is not co-existence. That is exploitation!
"It would appear as if man is really unable to sustain life without either meat or milk and milk products. Anyone who deceives people in this regard or countenances the fraud" – Gandhi 1946
JimOmnivore, did you know that humans are the only mammals that drink the milk of another specie. It started about 10,000 years ago and only 30% of humans adjusted to it and the rest can not digest it. Our lactic enzyme disappear at the age of about three and we are actually the only mammals that drink milk after weaning. I bet that if cats would have bigger boobs you would drink cat milk now. As for the meat, humans are not for eating flesh.... do some research and try to look at things through different lenses.
"My refusing to eat meat occasioned inconveniency, and I have been frequently chided for my singularity. But my light repast allows for greater progress, for greater clearness of head and quicker comprehension." Benjamin Franklin, American statesman, inventor, vegetarian
Celebrate diversity
"The Gods created certain kinds of beings to replenish our bodies; they are the trees and the plants and the seeds." Plato (vegetarian)
"The time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals as they now look upon the murder of men." Leonardo Da Vinci (vegetarian)
So I am supposed to take dietary advice from someone who made a living sniffing paint thinner??
that's all you know about Leonardo da Vinci? Or you are just saying something for the sake of saying..... I did not cense that he was high from his drawings and discoveries. We humans, always try to put down someone with a higher IQ than ours just to feel good.
My point is he is not a scientist, biologist, or dietician. He was a painter.
What does IQ have anything to do with lifestyle choices? Are vegans somehow magically smarter than the common omnivore? The funny thing is, when the economy finally collapses, we will see who survives. There will be no grocery stores, there will be no farms....BECAUSE THERE WILL BE NO MONEY!!! Yet I will still be in the woods, enjoying the fruits of my labor, and laughing at those who chose to deem me inferior due to my diet choices!!!
ONTHunter: you will be laughing for awhile, until your bullets run out and your sniper dot fades. Unless you hunt with a bow and arrow, which you make yourself, or a spear, that you make yourself, you'll be just as worse off as the rest of us in the end.
I don't need bullets to hunt. Unlike you, I have a knowledge of the outdoors. I know how to pattern animals, how to track them, and more importantly, how to snare/trap them. I would be just fine should my 10 000 bullets run out :).
"It is very significant that some of the most thoughtful and cultured men are partisans of a pure vegetable diet." Mahatma Gandhi
"It would appear as if man is really unable to sustain life without either meat or milk and milk products. Anyone who deceives people in this regard or countenances the fraud" – Gandhi 1946
Yet PETA (for the most part) is full of inconsiderate, thoughtless, obnoxious criminals.
Its funny, with all the brilliant minds that have presented themselves since the recording of history, there are only a handful of names that you could come up with that are vegetarians. Its probably relatively the same omnivore/vegetarian ratio that we see today.
the reason being that the majority of humans do what is easier and do not want to accept something that might cause inconvenience to them. Think why you don't want to try a vegan diet and if you do it honestly, you might find something unpleasant about yourself. If you tried already, I take back my word. But i don't mean trying for a few hours or days. I mean open your mind, do the best of your food, trick your mind who always wants to go the easiest way and do a lot of research of the newly discovered facts about the detrimental affects of the animal products.
I would rather live a shortened life doing what I want, than live an extended one where I am miserable. I enjoy eating meat, it is delicious. I like knowing that it is my right to eat and drink whatever I choose to, just as it is your right. I have an open mind, I just have no interest in changing to a vegan diet. You are more than welcome to continue eating what you want. I will not criticize your decision. We only live once, so I'm going to enjoy every minute of it doing what I love to do.
If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be a vegetarian. ~Paul McCartney
If slaughterhouses had glass walls, more people would seek to take part in their existence instead of having others kill for them by proxy.
Got anything original?
If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would buy stock in Windex.
Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on
Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet. ALBERT EINSTEIN (vegetarian)
Of all the quotes you posted, not one of them is a doctor or dietician...you have an astronomer, a painter, a mathematician, a tree hugger, and a musician. None of whom had any clue what they were talking about when it comes to health and diet. I'll stick with the advice of the Department of Health and stick with my 2-3 meat servings a day thank you very much.
all the doctors learn how to heal you and what medications to prescribe to you... .dieticians follow the doctors advice. So far, not many of them looked into the vegan diet cause they think it's nonsense, it goes against what they said so far.... It is hard to admit that you might be wrong. Easy, go to a doctor and take all the tests possible... stay on a vegan diet for 4 months (all it takes for the blood to cleanse) and go back to test yourself again. I am sure you can see a huge benefit earlier than that, but just to be safe. Many, many people healed themselves from cancer, diabetes, Crohn's decease, heart problems and other illnesses with a plant-based diet. if a plant-based diet heals, obviously it can prevent the unnecessary pain.
Ok pinko, I am going to change my diet now because some random person on the internet told me I wont get cancer if I do. As I said before, I'm going to live my life to the fullest. I'm going to go to Lonestar and get their 72oz steak and eat every morsel of it. Why? 1) because I can, 2) because I want to, and 3) its my money, my life, so f##k off.
Truly man is the king of beasts, for his brutality exceeds them. We live by the death of others. We are burial places.
—Leonardo Da Vinci (1452–1519 vegetarian)
Did he know that alfalfa screams when it's harvested? The cruel beast, anyway.
Just clone the meat without bothering with the rest of the animal. That is no longer Science Fiction. It is being done right now, with fairly good results.
Does that sound "yuck"? It is infinitely less "yuck" than killing tens of billions of birds, animals, and fish every year. Further, we already do eat cultured foods on the megaton scale: cheese comes to mind.
That time will come...and it shall. In the meantime we have this weird woman justifying why she runs around with a bunch of bears in the woods shooting Bambi.
Cheese is no where near the same as lab-grown meat.
And cloned meat? You need to read some Michael Pollan. We can't even get baby formula to be the same as human milk and we've been trying for decades. There are various other substances in meat than just the protein, fat, and the list of vitamins/minerals. What an animal eats even changes the nutritional make-up of the meat (meat from wild game and pastured livestock is leaner and significantly higher in Omega-3s). There are very likely nuances we don't even know to look for at this point in time!
Real food is best.
Must be nice where you are, author. But in cities and urban areas, where 85% of the US population lives, hunting ain't happening.
Maybe it is nice now, but wait until more like him will start hunting... I’m sure the beauty won't last long.... So much harm done to the planet and our health just to satisfy our pallet and gluttonous nature….
More and more people in cities are becoming vegan, thanks God.
For every one that goes vegan I get no less than 3 to go Primal and never look back.
I win!
You got your stats wrong dear... the world is changing faster than you think. Maybe not so much the older generation but the young are moving fast towards a vegan diet.
Still blathering on, eh little boy?
Keep up the good work the laughter you create is adding years to my already very healthy life.
LMAO at lena. I live in a college town and spend plenty of time with students. 95% of them eat meat. All of those who eat my cooking come back for more.
NEXT!
Ok Mike, There's great merit in stressing the ethical dimension of our interaction with the other animals that inhabit this planet. That's where the complexity begins. I called your arguments facile (superficial) and fatuous (silly, without substance) because they consistently ignore this complexity. To wit: we as human animals have been hunting and eating other animals for hundreds of thousands of years (and millions more going back to our hominid ancestors); the natural world of which we are a part is and ever has been teeming with predator/prey relationships; and while these facts don't make an ethical argument, they have meaning and weight. Our existence is a vale of tears, Mike, for us and the other animals, and my response to this condition is – good luck and good hunting!
Greg, I wonder if you would make this same argument if we were taking about child molestation or rape? Both predatorial relationships that have existed for thousands of years.
That is a red herring argument, yes hunting for food is an identical relationship to rape and child molestation. Please, can you just accept diversity and live up to that coexist bumpersticker on your car?
That is not a red herring fallacy. Greg is making the argument that predator-prey relationship is a natural part of life, so we should accept hunting and eating meat as right. I am simply pointing out that if you accept that argument then you must accept all aspects of the natural world not just the ones that help your argument.
Tom, you’re an idiot.
There's a great many individuals here who are detached from reality. Living your life in a steel box, walking in concrete jungles, and working in cages has made many delusional. Killing your own meat, raising your own vegetables, and identifying with your natural state will open your eyes to the truth of your human nature. The author recognized it and embraced her animal instincts. Humans are animals, we eat animals, and they are subservient to us. There's no form of food on this planet that does not come to us other than through the death of a living thing. Be honest or be a hypocrite. The choice is yours.
There are many animals that do not kill, why not compare ourselves with them... we weren't born with spears and guns. I’m sure nature didn't make a mistake. Killing is not natural; maybe our ancestors made a mistake like many other mistakes.
Better go tell the lions, wolves, bats, etc., that killing isn't natural.
By the way, humans are OMNIVORES. We are physiologically designed to eat meat. Your personal denial doesn't change scientific fact.
BAM! Scientifically OWNED!
One major point of hunting is that you gain an appreciation of the food you eat. We have traversed through history as hunter gathers. We are also scavengers and our adaptability has helped us get where we are. The fact is we can survive on anything hence the reason that we are omnivores. While we can survive on both diets we are better off with a good mix depending on your particular life style. If you don't eat meat its supplemented with nuts etc. the fact is Meat is one of the highest sources of protein on the planet and probably the most accessible. Hunting is in our nature like many other animals on this planet. The primary cause of obesity isn't because we eat too much meat. Its because we eat in a way that is unnatural to us. We simply eat too much and at the wrong time. Most people in this country probably do not even know what its like to feel legitimately hungry, rather they just think they are hungry. So believe what you want, but also have the humility to respect other peoples preferences. Meat is a sustainable energy source for us and its highly effective that's why we have consumed it for thousands of years, at the same time so is plant life etc. True hunters appreciate their kills and acknowledge the struggle between hunter and prey. The feeling is nothing short of primal and quickly learn how unforgiving nature really is.
I am sure that human flesh is also the highest sources of protein on the planet, so what? Every human body is designed the same and will thrive on a vegan diet (unless the mind interferes. alcoholics also think that they can't live with no alcohol, the body is used to it). We don't need that much protein; we need the amino-acids from the protein. Eating protein that is hard to be broken down into amino-acids (like animal protein) is harsh on our digestive system and the organs wear out. A big part of the animal protein can not be digested goes into waste to rotten in our herbivorous intestine. Eating plant-based protein is easily broken down, does not cause acidity in the body and doesn't come with what we don't need like cholesterol, hormones, saturated fats and other detrimental elements.
A vegan diet is not the natural human diet. In fact, you CANNOT SURVIVE on a vegan diet without supplements! And even then, supplements aren't as efficient as getting your nutrients from real food.
There are many "failed vegans" that did everything "right" and still ended up with a slew of health problems due to deficiencies.
There's a reason no cultures have traditionally vegan, they would have died out if they tried! Cultures that are traditionally vegetarian highly prize animal products such as eggs and milk.
And if one has an uneasy feeling about an action he or she does to others, it means is against his/her human dignity. We shouldn't expect to be forgiven if we can avoid making someone to forgive us.
Forget all this ethical this and that. Kill it, gut it, skin it, cook it, eat it. There is no other way. Man has survived that way for thousands of years. Vegetables on the side.
Man survived this way but it doesn't mean its the best way... we could have been much better and healthier as a human race. We learned from predators to kill and eat. Instead, we should have learned from herbivorous and never allow ourselves to go that low. Looking at the herbivorous animals is a pleasure and brings calmness, that's how we should be.
If you take a look at herbivores, omnivores and carnivores its all in the teeth. We, as humans, were born with molars for chewing and incisors for ripping and tearing. Herbivores have large flat teeth all around the mouth. Also, vegetarians kill plants when the eat them. You just dont feel bad because they are structured differently and are not cute furry animals.
Chuckles, you should compare the relative size of the human colon to natural herbivores and carnivores. The Human digestive track is relatively long, which is most similar to herbivores. Carnivores have a relatively shorter digestive tracks to quickly move the meat throught the system. Long digestive tracks work best with high fiber diets, and fiber is only found in plant based sources. Meat contains no fiber, so it is unlikely humans evolved to be a prey animal.
LMAO at lena, so misguided, so delusional, so very, very, wrong.
Mother nature knows far better than you ever will what is best for us and that happens to be the way humans have eaten for 99% of our existence. It was not vegetarian. You cannot improve on that sorry.
Veggies can't touch meat for quality protein. It's the reason orientals are short.
You are mixing up nutrition with genetics. Height has more to do with genetics than nutrition. Keep in mind that Elephants, Giraffes, Zebras, Horses and Cows are all naturally large animals that derive all their nutrition from plant based sources. They require much greater amounts of protien, iron, calcium and B12 than humans and they get it all from plants. Yes, Even B12. It is found in bacteria that grows in the ground around plants, and it is produced by bacteria that naturally lives in their colon.
You Keep What You Kill
and you are a 'killer'.
Yes dear I am.
A Natural Born Killer.
Nature didn't make you a killer, the society did. You are just a follower who does not want to accept that there is a different way, even if it is better. This is the problem with the majority of us.
Sorry champ, but nature did make us killers. Have you ever researched why humans are fantastic distance runners compared to the rest of the animal kingdom? If you did, you would see that humans, at a slow jog, are capable of running incredible distances. This skill evolved to allow us to chase animals at a slow pace, using pack hunting methods still used in parts of Africa. They would chase the animal to exhaustion, because most mammals can't sweat and rely on breathing to cool their bodies. Killing is what we are built for. We were not built to go to the grocery store and feed the corporate superpowers wallets.
Horseradish! Killing animals is wrong regardless of who does it. Become a vegetarian–it's healthier and certainly more ethical. If killing things is so fun, I suggest hunters kill each other. At least then there'd be consent on both sides. Animals don't want to be the target of murderous humans.
You can't grill it until you kill it.
yes it would be much more kind to allow populations to grow out of controll and wait until disease and starvation take over instead of controlling population through hunting.
As a lover of horseradish, I strongly condemn your perjorative reference to this fine condiment. Most excellent with stews and roasts.
Not to mention it's great on a nice grilled steak.
Horseradish and filet mignon... oh my... yum
Oh, and they'd much rather have their infants be targets of wolves and coyotes and all other predators in the wild? Nature isn't this pretty flower world that you think it is. It's cruel and vicious and human hunters are equal if not more humane than other animal predators. At least we aren't doing what kimodo dragons do, where they bite their prey and them them wander for days as the wound festers and rots and the animal collapses to be eaten alive. Or better yet, lions, who often don't kill their prey, and instead eat it from the rear end forwards since that meat is easier to get to which keeps the prey item alive for the duration of the feeding, as well as when the buzzards come to finish it off.
As for hunters, you know how many deer are hit by cars every year? I've seen a deer be hit by a car and thrash around on the side of the road in agony for hours until a local HUNTER showed up and shot it to put it out of it's misery. A much less peaceful death than being shot with an arrow that allows the animal to bleed out within minutes. But you suggest shooting human beings because they disagree with your paradigm. I think you have your priorities switched up a bit.
I'm sure that grapefruit you murdered this morning for breakfast was dying to be eaten!
Seeing as fruits are designed to be eaten so that their seed will spread to other diverse locations, I'd say yes it was happy and thankful. And did not scream in pain as I enjoyed it.
You kill plants. Just cause they're different means killing them is ok?
How can you compare animals to plants? Your compassion is far from feeling the pain of a plant when you can't hear the cry and feel the pain of an animal who is murdered. Than what is the difference between a man, an animal and a plant? Animals are just like us, but in a different shape. Plants also feel pain, but one step at a time… first learn not to eat someone with eyes and flesh like yours.
People Eating Tasty Animals. Deal with it.
The only comment that I will make is this and I dont plan on reading anymore either. Mike, don't you have anything better to do than sit for hours and argue a battle where nobody wins on an article comment page? I am a hunter by the way. I enjoy the outdoors, enjoy the hunt, and enjoy eating what I have provided for myself and my family. I am also in the environmental field for a living. I do not dislike you and your ways of being a vegetarian or vegan and respect your choice, just like I prefer respect for mine. Happy hunting to those that do, and have a good day to those that don't. I am now getting off this computer and going to the freezer to get some venison burger out to thaw. God bless all!
I suggest you gather food for the family in the vegetable aisle of your local supermarket.
opinion noted but who are you to tell him how to provide for his family?
P-–Practice
E-–Eating
T-–Tasty
A-–Animals.
you might like it.
P – please
E – eat
T – the
A – asparagus
As a side for a perfectly grilled, grass fed and finished, steak. No problem at all. I'll even smother it with fresh, hand made, unpasteurized, butter, that I make myself.
This lady should go back to Manhattan where she was belonging. Over there probably the only wild animals that can be hunted and ate are rats (not the human beings, since it is forbidden by the law). The Manhattan area must had the same kinds of animals this lady can hunt today, but they are all being hunted and ate by her or some one else’s ancestors.
What?
sounds like someone didnt read the article
The poll doesn't lie! Happy Independence day fellow hunters and conservationist. Thanks for your efforts! Hope to see you on the mountain away from all the madness!
we can selebrate something more noble than hunting. All the suffering we cause to others, but of course it is not us, why think... it is easier not to think but do what pleases us. Eventually all the anguish these animals go through will bite you back. This is the unseen law of the Universe. It is called karma. The hospitals are full of meat eaters.
selebrate? What's that?
Hospitals are full vegan and vegetarians too.
I wonder how you recognized them.... where you one of the vegans who got sick? I don't know any unless they were sick already before they became vegans.
If we didn't have to grow 10 times more grains to feed the animals, maybe we will also don't use so many pesticides, herbicides and other detrimental to our body chemicals…then, as a vegan, i would be even more healthier. Still, meat has a much higher concentration of pesticides than plant-based foods.
It is not your place, or your right, to tell anyone else not to hunt, period.
We all know you don't hunt and we don't care, now shut it.
Hunting is murder. The next time you go out, leave the gun/bow at home.
Meat is murder. Tasty, tasty murder.
Nope, it isn't, period.
Thank for playing anyway.
NEXT!
This ammunition for political coverage has been brought to you by the NRA, firearm manufacturers' lobby, and Chambers of Commerce in popular hunting states. We want your money! So kill animals!
Love to hunt, love to eat meat. Gives my canine teeth a purpose (unless you think canines are for ripping the flesh of a broccoli floret).
Many herbivores also possess canines. But I'm sure you knew that.
You are thinking of Omnivores. But I’m sure you knew that.
No, actually, I'm not. Many herbivores, as in, animals that eat only plants, possess canines.
Okay.. I’m open to learning name a few.
Answer:
Many, though not all, herbivores have canines. For example, canine teeth can be found in horses and deer, but they are often smaller than the canines found in carnivores. The ‘canine’ of a herbivore is very different in size (relative) and shape than that of an omnivore or carnivore.
I’ve read a number of your posts and you have a habit of shaping the question in such a way as to make it easily disputed to support your view. At best your comments tend to be half truths. The question is.. are you just lying to us.. or to yourself.
canines are for opening a coconut and a herbivourous intestine is for a plant based diet (that's what you and I have). If you can grab an animal as is (not cooked, not ripped of its skin) and just eat it, than you can compare yourself with a lion or a wolf. We are humans, why compare ourselves with predators....
if you open a coconut with your teach im impressed
teeth* sorry
It's called Steak Tartare and it's Delicious!
Good Stinking, you learned to hunt and you learned to like meat. You can just as easily learn not to hunt and learn to like vegetables. BTW, that's nonsense about the teeth.
All I meant is that these teeth are not for eating meat.... how many people would use them to eat raw flesh? It makes me sick in my stomach just to think that someone would do that and I’m sure not many.
Meat would traditionally be eaten raw, however with the industrialization of the meat market, there is chances of bacteria from the intestines getting onto the meat during butchering. Thats why we cook our meat, to kill bacteria that could be on it. I went seal hunting with a friend, and after he shot his seal, we were cutting pieces off and eating it right there. Its perfectly safe and healthy.
Some hunt, some do not.. We are all different and have different histories, values, tolerance levels, comfort zones etc...
We are a diverse group...I cant believe I used that word.. USA is the wonderful place to live it is because of the freedoms we have-our right to free speech (as all these postings attest), our right to religion/belief systems (or none)- to name just a few..To quote 21k from an earlier post..." do what you wish, just don't tell the rest of us what we need to do to improve our lives. we already have politicians to do that". I could not agree more... Hunt or don't hunt; Eat meat or be a vegan; Eat only what you kill or eat processed meat. Lets just keep the freedom we have to chose what is right for each of us.
Lena chooses to be a Vegan, RH eats meat from the "meat industry"..Both of those decisions are respected.. I chose to hunt, fish, garden, forage and shop for my family's food. I am so glad we have that freedom to chose the source and content of our food. I can only hope that I keep that freedom. From reading many posts above, I have to be concerned that I will not always have that freedom. No banter, no volley: I will not respond to any posts. Do what you do from your dark nameless hole; Tear my words to shreds, it matters not... To the author, Ms McCaulou. I enjoyed the excerpt, I may buy the book. The Omnivore's Dilemma will be on my reading list as well. All be well. Signed, A Father, Provider, Environmentalist, Conservationist, Patriot, Voter, and yes.. a HUNTER.
The freedom to choose can only go so far. Throughout history, people have had to restrict freedom of choice in the name of a more civilized society. This is no different. People shouldn't be able to choose an unethical option.
This is true Mike, however you seem to miss that ethics are subjective. Who are you to decide what is ethical for everyone else?
Tom that is an excellent question, and probably one of the most difficult to answer. What many now considerable despicable acts were viewed as ethical at one time. I believe that at a certain point, things are objectively unethical. These might include murder, rape, theft, etc. Causing needless suffering to sentient animals is also something I would view as objectively unethical, and I think eventually most people will agree.
I’ll help you out Mike. The answer to the question is; No one. You have no place deciding this for others. This combined with your pseudo-science that humans don’t eat meat pretty much puts you in the tin foil hat club.
Well you have no right whatsoever to make that determination. You are not an elected leader. You can make a suggestion, however I will ignore it and rightfully so. Your part of the scenario ends there, period.
The same thing the slave owners and the oppressors of other countries were saying – don't tell me what to do... As long as defenseless beings are harassed by the strongest, there will not be peace and harmony on this planet. Btw, I can’t see a bunch of vegans starting a war, their compassion encompasses more than just family, friends, and humans. Imagine having more love… that is the best attribute of a human. Love is God, the more the better.
"As long as defenseless beings are harassed by the strongest"
soooo does that mean we have to kill all carnivores? its not their fault nature made them the way they are, should we try to make them vegitarians too?
No matter how hard you try, no matter how much time you waste trying, no matter what you say. I will always hunt without regard to anything you think about and you will NEVER be able to do anything about it.
Perhaps you should try something worthwhile because this ain't it.
@HunterDan – The Omnivore's Dilemma is a great read, as is A Hunter's Heart. Highly recommended.
LOVE this article! I work for an environmental agency protecting endangered species, have a degree in Environmental science, and am a member of multiple environmental professional and political advocacy groups and I (and MANY of my colleagues) hunt and fish! The author did an awesome job of explaining the benefits of hunting to nature and animal welfare.
-Note: yes it is more sustainable to go vegan, but to ask the world to give up meat is unreasonable and, for some people, very unhealthy. AND if you live in an area where hunting is not a possibility, try buying your meat at a farmer's market or from a small, local farmer.
I think that all the environmental agencies should start informing people that the #1 cause of all the environmental problems come from raising animals for food. This includes biodiversity loss. 60 billion animals... each of them eats in average 5 times more than a human being and most of the food we grow goes into feeding them. If our Governments would inform themselves and educate their citizens on the benefits of a vegan diet and what to eat, we will have a beautiful planet and non-violent people. Killing breeds violence.
Lulu, hunting is murder no matter how you cut it. Don't pretend that it's population control or natural for humans to do it. Humans are smart enough to design a diet that is animal-free and healthy.
Nope, it isn't. And no matter how many times you say it is, it will never be true.
You are wrong, end of story!
And all this time I thought that it was moslty about the thrill of the kill.
"5@5 – Why hunting your own dinner is an ethical way to eat"
The important word in that headline is "an," as in one of a plurality. I find nothing inherently unethical about farm-raised meat.
Then you've probably never been to a modern farm.
Sherwood said: inherently unethical. I have been to a farm and I agree with him. You may be referring to how SOME live stock is raise on SOME cooperate owned farms. But I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt on that one.
Considering that over 90% of American meat is produced on factory farms, I'd say it is inherently unethical.
And it would still just be your OPINION. Funny you focus the question on to America. The majority of the WORLDs meat is NOT. Nice try though.
And then the carrots SCREAMED
Great. Now that one notorious Lost In Space episode came to mind.
The bottom line here is that we have to determine whether or not the suffering of animals matters. If it does matter, then we should avoid needlessly inflicting it for something as insignificant as our personal taste preferences. There is no biological need to eat meat. The ONLY reason 99% of Americans do it is because they like the taste.
Outright lie. You prove yourself to be a fool. Science has proven with, absolute certainty, humans were designed to eat animal products, and thrive as a result.
You don't want them fine, don't eat them. That is were your contribution to the matter ends, period. You have no right whatsoever to decide that for any other human on the planet. You have nothing to say that matters on the subject, end of story.
What is an outright lie? That humans don't need meat?
That is correct. For optimum health and vitality humans need properly raised animal products, period. A vegan/vegetarian must supplement in some way. Can;t be done any other way. I never have to do that and never will.
Ok well the American Dietic Association disagrees. But I'm sure you know best.
LMAO the ADA. Conventional wisdom has us in the obesity epidemic we find out nation in.
I don't need anyone from the government to tell me anything. People who do, well how sad.
So the ADA (now the AND) is not only wrong, but responsible for the obesity epidemic despite constantly advocating for healthier lifestyles in which Americans consume less meat? Also, just fyi, they aren't a governmental organization. You must be from the deep south.
Actually, humans are endowed with a significantly long intestinal track, which indicates that we evolved to eat plant matter. Prey animals, such as lions have relatively short digestive tracks so they can quickly move the meat through their system. This prevents the meat from decomposing in the colon.
@ Mike
So how far do you take this need to prevent animal suffering? If you could force all carnivores and omnivores on earth to eat nothing but fruits, vegetables, and grass would you do it? Is the pain that the antelope feels when the lion clamps down on it's throat a pain you feel you should prevent if you had the means to do so?
If I could force people to become vegatarian, yes, I would. Regarding your second question, no, I would not prevent that.
I was refering to all carnivores/omnivores in both questions. So animal suffering only matters if it is a result of human action? If that's the case, then it isn't the suffering itself that matters. So the argument really isn't "vegetarianism/veganism should be adopted by all to prevent animal suffering" but rather "vegetarianism/veganism should be adopted by all because I don't like it when people do what other organisms have been doing since the dawn of time".
You seem unable to distinguish between your own (deservedly humble) opinion and what you seem to think are ethical facts. Your arguments are facile, fatuous, and dare I say it? – bloodless. That's a fine joke which I'm sure is wasted on you. As a recent hunter who took up the pursuit for specifically ethical reasons (I purely hate to kill any animal ((except for certain humans)), and had to work hard to get past it), I very much appreciated this author's experience.
Rather than simply throwing out impressive sounding adjectives, how about you actually attempt to address the merits of what I am saying?
Ok Mike, There's great merit in stressing the ethical dimension of our interaction with the other animals that inhabit this planet. That's where the complexity begins. I called your arguments facile (superficial) and fatuous (silly, without substance) because they consistently ignore this complexity. To wit: we as human animals have been hunting and eating other animals for hundreds of thousands of years (and millions more going back to our hominid ancestors); the natural world of which we are a part is and ever has been teeming with predator/prey relationships; and while these facts don't make an ethical argument, they have meaning and weight. Our existence is a vale of tears, Mike, and my response to this condition is – good luck and good hunting!
Mike you’re just embarrassing yourself.
@Mike where I am from our main wildlife is deer due to farmers killing off most of their natural preditors. Our winters get very long and harsh. Some years the herds are small so hunters are allowed only 1 kill, but during years when the deer are overpopulated there is no restriction on how many kills you can have. The main reason is more deer will suffer and die slowly from starvation when overpopulated then if they were not. We are preditors just like the wolves and it is our part in the ecosystem to keep the populations of certain species down so as to not cause more harm.
Lukewarm, you are not God! You act as if nature could not exist without the interference of man. You really believe that your hunting is reducing suffering and makes nature a less cruel world? That's a tad arrogant. You think becuase you hunt you are one with the wolves? Do you kill with you teech and claws too? No, you use manufactured weapons and then then you drive your Truck or SUV back to your home that is hooked up to the grid. If you hund for sport, then say you hunt for sport. Don't try to convince yourself that you are doing nature a favor.
Murder 4 Life, absolute nonsense. You murder/hunt for pleasure because very few animals fight back and, in any case, you have the gun. If you weren't such a coward, you'd hunt other hunters. Where's your sense of fair play? You do what is easy and safe.
If you drive a car, you’re a hypocrite.
Hunting looks like a lot of hard work to me.
now, for the "avid hunter vs. vegan" debate– let me settle it for you. Neither camp is totally right, and, more importantly, neither camp's attitude comes close to being tolerable. If I saw either of you in the bar, I would stare at my beer until you went away.
Mike, you cause suffering to sentient beings every time you post one of your stupid comments
No one forces you to read them!
I know right. It's quit painful when dolts act as if they have any intelligence at all. It is fun to laugh at them though.
I love articles like these. It is so much fun laughing at all the misguided vegetarians and vegans spout of about their superiority when nothing could be further from the truth.
I am so glad I will NEVER have to implement any of their nonsense while being far healthier than they will ever be.
Bring it on wimps, you got nothing!
Wimps? Wow, aren't you the brave keyboard warrior......
Do you have any insight you would like to offer?
You don't, so why should anyone accommodate you?
The only way for you to know if you are that HEALTHY, is to find a vagan who doesn't eat only processed food, go to the doctor and compare your tests with his. Check for coagulation of blood; enzyme deficiency; check how the kidney, liver, heart and other organs work; check how clean is your interstine and blood; the level of cholesterol; how good your white cells are.... this might change your opinion about your health. I can't figure out how can you know that you are very healthy.... Our doctors always compare us and set norms by comparing people who are on the death bed and meat-eaters (i don't think they checked the vegans yet and see if there is more room for being healthier)
I have all my blood work done regularly. Since adopting the Primal Blueprint I have never been healthier and I have all the tests and my doctors 100% approval to prove it.
I'll never eat any other way ever again.
Primal: You sure talk big, little fella
Yeah as if you are some big tough guy. You couldn't take me in your dreams little peon.
And you know this how?
Also, Primal, I am not claiming to be a big tough guy. I am a middle aged accountant. What is your point? Do you just like to bloviate your superiority online? Make you feel like a "big tough guy"? Here is a suggestion: Go F yourself.
Same way you think you know genius.
Primal: You really are an imbecile.
You are the one who replied. You are the instigator. I simply finish the job you started peon.
NEXT!!!!
You are nothing but a loudmouth.
Actually, since it was your comment initially, you are the instigator. Go home and get your shinebox, boy
LMAO whatever loser. You got nothing on me and never will.
Primal: You are still talking like a mouthy little b!tch.
And you are nothing at all.
NEXT!!!
You seem to be looking for a fight P4. Why is that?
Nope not looking, however, I back down for nobody, especially some vegan wimp. He wanted some, so I gave it to him.
Tried a vegan diet for several months as a challenge and it was torture. You would have to be mentally ill, after ever having a normal diet, to be satisfied with that lifestyle. Going back to a normal diet was not at all difficult, nothing changed with my taste buds and I feel better overall mentally and physically. Vegans can claim whatever they want, but in my personal experience a regular diet is better for a happy, healthy life.
I have found the exact opposite.
All the people who were strong enough to stick to the plant-based diet would tell you that there is a big positive difference in health, physical and mental. If you don’t give it a chance, how can you know how much better you can feel even if you think you feel great now? Of course it requires cooking, looking for the right foods, using the imagination to come up with different recipes and to do a lot of research. Telling others that it doesn’t work discourages them to try. Heart problems, diabetes, obesity, cancer and many other diseases come from eating animal protein. Only when a person gets really sick from these diseases, the doctor advises them to stay away from animal products.
If you have to be "strong enough" for it and several months isn't sufficient to reach a conclusion then it certainly doesn't sound like something worth doing. I certainly have no intention of torturing myself for years until I learn to like it. That's masochism and that is a mental illness.
I been doing it for over 30 years, and the vegetarian, primarily vegan diet is for me.
I'm glad that you have found a diet that meets your physical needs and fits your lifestyle. I also have a diet that I am happy with. It consists of a healthy balance of meat products, fruits, vegetables and legumes. I ask that you respect my right to eat meat, as I have respected your right to oppose it.
I am a hunter and agree with your first 3 points. You are not correct, however, about the last two points. There are many individuals and organizations who support conservation without having purchased hunting/fishing equipment or licenses or killed an animal. Our national park system, to name just one non-extractive conservation success, is supported by tax payers and users, the majority of which are non-hunters. I appreciate you developed your appreciation of the outdoors through hunting. I did not however, despite being a hunter for over 40 years. My intense appreciation of the outdoors led to me adding hunting to my many ways to experience and revel in nature, not the other way around and for most of the people I know, that is the case as well. To suggest that you cannot have a full appreciation for the outdoors or vested interest in it unless you are a hunter is also a fallacy. Photographers and cinematographers, non-extractive hunters, have opened our eyes to the beauty and complexity of nature and helped garner support for conservation efforts without ever having killed had to kill a single animal and they do it because of their incredible appreciation for nature. A myriad of environmental organizations work every day to raise money, influence policy and provide critical input to protect and preserve habitats for the benefit of future generations, many at their own expense, without feeling the need to be extractive themselves. It perplexes me that again, someone needs to make a distinction between "us" and "them" when in fact, many of us share the same feelings about nature regardless of how we come about them, and for those that don't, well, they either haven't been fortunate enough to have the chance to do so or, they have other more compelling interests which of course deserve our respect.
Awesome article from a person who took to the time to look beyond their upbringing and see that of another person's. Sorry Mike, but for some people hunting, fishing and trapping is a way of life, or at least a big part of it. I have no problem with people who don't hunt, unless they preach at me not to. I have no interest in changing their point of view and can't understand why some of them are so bent on changing mine.
Life is short, hunt hard!
Oh I see, so as long as it's a "way of life," it's ethical. Got it.
HAHAHAHA I love the word "ethical". Just because you disagree with something, Mike, doesn't make it ethical or unethical. Its just hunting. Its fine if you don't like it, no one cares if you do or don't.
You are correct. It has nothing to do with my opinions. It's unethical because it creates needless suffering for sentient beings.
Whether something is ethical is not based on suffering or sentience. It's based on what society deems to be acceptable. Since society, as a whole, deems hunting to be acceptable, it is not unethical to hunt. You can have your own personal code of ethics, but you seem to think society is required to live by it, which simply isn't the case no matter how much you may wish it to be.
So slavery was ethical in the 1860s? Concentration camps were ethical in Nazi Germany? What a ridiculous position.
Poor Mike the mental midget. Immediately switching to straw man arguments when he gets put in his place. Too funny.
It's not a strawman argument at all. He argued that ethics are determined by the majority. I was pointing out how untenable that position is by examining history. I think you need to look up what a strawman is.
100% straw man, period.
NEXT!!!!!
LOL ok. Did you actually care to address the merits of the point or no?
You are not worth the time or effort.
I'm not sure where you came up with this "undue suffering" argument, but again, its entirely factless and purely opinionated. I've shot many deer with my .308, furthest anything ran was 50 yards before it died. Maybe 10 second duration. Controlling animal populations helps reduce the starvation rate of a given species. It also reduces vehicle collisions with wild animals, both of which cause suffering for a longer period than 10 seconds.
And to answer your question about slavery and containment camps being "ethical" or not...
It depends on where you are when you are asking the question. In the southern states during the 1800's, it was entirely ethical to have slaves, yet in the north, it was considered unethical. Same thing with containment camps in germany in the 30's/40's. If you asked a german back then if it was ethical, the answer would be yes. There are many different forms of ethics. There's personal ethics, job/professional ethics, community ethics, social ethics, national ethics, international ethics, cultural ethics...etc. Each one is differing in opinion. So to say something is "unethical" is probably correct, because pretty much anything can violate someone's ethics.
"Sentient" is a relative judgement. I can see why you might find deer and ducks sentient, looking from the bottom up and all. As for me, I do not consider them to have reached that level of intelligence.
Mike, the world at large deemed those things unethical, even if Germany or the USA were proponents of them then. Ethics evolve with the whims of society or by virtue of systems we've put in place. Your idea of ethics is obviously different from those of the vast majority of humanity. That's not to say you're not entitled to your own interpretation of what is ethical or not, but when your ethics run contrary to societal ethics, you should have the intellectual honesty to differentiate.
Sentience has nothing to do with intelligence...
Bingo!
Hunting with a gun or arrow isn't natural. If you can't take down an animal with your own hands, it isn't natural. Cooking your meat isn't natural either. If you can't kill the animal with your hands, just rip into it with your teeth without any other prep, it isn't natural.
Let's see . . .
Do you wear clothes? Yes – sorry, not "natural".
Do you cook any of your fruits or vegetables? Yes – sorry, not "natural".
Do you use 'flour' of any kind for any reason? Yes – sorry, not "natural".
Do you see a pattern here? How big a hypocrite can you possibly be?
I think his point was that hunting isn't natural, therefore those that use the "natural" excuse are illogical. That's not hypocritical at all.
Read it again, and see if you can really understand it this time.
No, he's suggesting that hunting with tools is unnatural. Hunting itself is quite natural and is done in a wide variety of different ways by different type of animals. Some can chase and bring down their prey with brute force, others hunt in packs, some use venom, others need to ambush from hiding. We had the mental capacity to make tools. The fact that these tools have evolved over thousands of years doesn't make it any less natural.
As for cooking as unnatural? Using heat to prepare your food is as unnatural as using water to clean it before you eat it. It's a silly argument.
@Mike...Are you saying cultivating fruits and vegetables is natural? Natural would mean eating only native plants and/or their fruit as they become edible. Not manipulated plants, cultivated plants, or non-native plants. You do all that and I will yield to your ethical superiority. You would be a gatherer. (Probably not a very healthy person, and prey for any predator you encounter while gathering). Oh, wait, you'd also have to make sure you pass the seeds through your body and deposit them in a place where they could germinate, sprout, and grow the following season.
I realize that vegans believe plants are not sentient because they do not have a nervous system. It's a convenient way to disconnect from the fact that plants do actually react with their environment, albeit much slower than vertebrates and some invertebrates. Watch a field of sunflowers follow the sun one day, follow the roots of a large tree from year to year as they endeavor to feed the trunk and leaves. Life is life. Dead is dead. To kill a deer is to make it dead. To kill a tomato is to make it dead. For all we know one day we will uncover science that shows plants know pain. I mean, at one time the world was flat and the sun revolved around us. Do you know what a stressed out tomato plant does? It sends forth extra blooms in an effort to get as many fruits grown so that more seeds will be available to sustain future plants.
We are part of the ecosystem. Whether we manipulate it's plants or animals doesn't change the fact that we have manipulated it. Now, I'm off to eat my lunch of cucumbers and cherries. The freezer is getting low so I have to conserve the meat from the deer and turkey I took last season, and besides cukes and cherries are in season right now.
OK, MIke, let's replace hypocritical with a different word – stupid. Suggesting that hunting with tools is "unnatural" is about the most abjectly stupid comment on this thread. There is nothing "unnatural" about any animal using its brains to improve its chances of catching its quarry. Is it unnatural for Killer Whales to use their brains to work together to herd fish or seals into an ambush site? Is it unnatural for lions to employ similar methods to hunt herds of Impala? If you're going to advance anti-hunting arguments, at least have the good sense to drop the outrageously ridiculous ones.
Better tell those chimps and bonobos to stop using sticks to collect termites. If they can't get those insects by just tonguing a termite mound then they're not getting their food naturally.
Sorry, there are plenty of animals that use tools to hunt their prey. From primates that use leaves and twigs to get ants and termites to arachnids that create webs to bears that use rocks to smash seafood.
While I am not a hunter, I am a biologist and I fully support the idea of hunting for food, not for sport. Hunter's are one of the most consistent groups to contribute to conservation measures in the U.S. and I applaud them for that. I am a vegetarian because I do not agree with commercial agricultures practices of raising or slaughtering animals. However, my dad is an active hunter and I am perfectly willing to eat anything that he may hunt. I know he uses as much of the animal as he can and I feel satisfied with his methods. I caution anyone from making such broad generalizations such as hunters are people who kill only for sport or that vegans are ignorant. This is a good article about someones point of view and reasons for choosing their lifestyle. We do not live in a society that could trade commercial agriculture for hunting and gathering, not only because lack of sustainability, but also lack of desire. The average American does not know where their food comes from, so for those hunters who hunt for food and become in tune with nature – great job! For the vegans who educate themselves and want to eat ethically, congratulations. I don't agree with hunting for sport or canned hunts, but I also oppose vegans who live off of junk food, or say that they never kill anything – I'm an organic farmer and as much as I wish it were not the case, I kill bugs (just yesterday I killed potato beetles), and the occasional rodent, mostly by accident with the tractor. I applaud anyone who educates themselves and stands up for what they believe.
Genesis 1:26 – And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Can't wait to see someone take that out of context. Those of you who don't believe in God will write this off, that's fine, believe what you want. But we are meant to live on plants AND animals. The circle of life. Stop judging people and assuming your way is the right one, if you want to live on plants more power to you.
And here come the bible thumpers. So a few men write a story hundreds of years ago, and that makes meat-eating ethical. Got it.
Since eating meat is neither ethical nor unethical, it's a moot point.
PF, before using ethical or unethical in your post, you should at least understand the definition. What is your definition of ethical?
Not a bible thumper Mike, in fact I can't stand those people, they like you, try to shove their views on everyone. I just wanted to confirm a suspicion that you aren't Christian either. You have way more problems than worrying about hunting. Thanks :)
Speaking as an omnivore, I would say that eating meat is ethical. Now if I was a cow...
What a silly discussion: the ethics of eating meat. A lion doesn't sit around wondering if it is ethical to kill a zebra; neither does a raccoon wonder if it should kill a crayfish today or just forage for wild strawberries. People can eat meat, in moderation it is no worse for us than anything else, and there are a number of positive benefits of meat eating. Nothing else in nature questions whether the food that sustains it, is the "ethical" choice. We eat to live, everything eats to live, and sometimes things die so that other things may eat them and live.
Does dominion mean eating them? How animals are raised for food now is different from how it was thousands of years ago. Nothing in the way commercial farms are being ran can be considered ethical or humane. Try visiting one of them and see for yourself.
The "dominion" thing was a bad translation. It was suppossed to mean 'keeper of the garden' but "dominion" sounded better to King James I guess.
Just for the record, I killed an 8 point buck with a fiberglass arrow tipped with a Montec G5 broadhead at 33 yards out of my Martin Cheetah compound bow last fall. I spent a good 15-20 minutes preparing for a perfect chest shot. After releasing my arrow and seeing the buck take off, I went back to the house, had a cup of coffee, and waited an hour. When I went back to the spot where I saw him last, there was blood on the ground and he was lying 15 yards away. Dead. The arrow was a complete pass-through. I immediately gutted him and put him on my 4 wheeler to take home. I let him bleed out and that evening I took him to my professional butcher who processed him and returned the meat 3 days later. Cut and wrapped. I had a years worth of meat and an experience that those who call hunting "barbaric" will never understand or relate to. I pity people who do not have the ability or stones to provide for themselves beyond eating grass and leaves.
I pity you for many reasons.
I don't need or want your pity. Just leave me the hell alone.
Yours is the condescending pity of the self-righteous looking down on those he considers beneath him. Yours is the pity of the white man looking down on the tribes of the plains and their "barbaric" ways, right before he destroyed them in his ignorance. That's the folly of man I guess, we blame those for precisely the wrongs we are most guilty of ourselves. You claim hunters are ignorant. Find a mirror.
Please explain how I am ignorant.
@ Mike
Every single one of your replies on this topic sends the message that you and your 'opinions' are "right" and that everybody who doesn't think like you do, or believe what you believe, is "wrong" – and inferior, as well. That stance is arrogant, pompous, self-aggrandizing, and . . . just plain ignorant. There's your explanation.
In response to Mike's, "Please explain how I am ignorant".
Your personal ethics are just that Mike, yours, they are not universal however hard you might wish they were. When people, however well-meaning, believe they know how another person should live better than that person, bad things often happen. You are ignorant because you only allow yourself to see the virtues in yourself and the failings of others, at least using your posts here as a measure. I have nothing against vegans. I have a great deal against narrow-minded, absolutist, extremists.
So in other words, neither one of you know what the word "ignorant" means.
@ Mike
I know perfectly well what it means. I also know that if you are "lacking in knowledge" to the point that you don't know that your opinions and beliefs aren't the only 'right' ones, then you, sir, are "ignorant".
@Mike
You are ignorant because you look down on others for killing animals for meat, yet you don't seem to understand that even as a vegan you are responsible for the deaths of many animals. Do you have any idea what modern agricultural practices do to animals? As a grain and oilseed farmer I've seen many, many animals killed during harvest alone. Unless you consume only organic homegrown fruit and vegetables you too have blood on your hands. People who live in glass houses should not throw stones...
"Mike
So in other words, neither one of you know what the word "ignorant" means."
Well, I was going to go into greater detail about how you are ignorant but you kinda beat me to the punch with that last comment. I mean, dang Mike, that's a pretty ignorant thing to say!
LMAO nobody needs, or wants, pity from a loser like you.
We can try and justify our "pure" way of life all we want wildone. I for actually take solice in the fact that not everyone believes in what we do or how we live. That way if and when the day comes that we have to actually survive say a collapse in society we will survive. Happy Hunting
Thanks, Brother.
In response to eating leaves and grass, I'll assure you I do none of that. It can be reasoned that the invention of agriculture, of mass producing grains and vegetables, actually led to the greatest growth in human population ever. Period. This is ultimately what transitioned us from hunter-gatherers to how we are today. Without the incessant need to forage and hunt for food, we could focus on improving other facets of life. If you'd like to revert back to solely hunting, be my guest. But do not question the intelligence or thriftiness of those that brought you modernism :P I think we did just fine for ourselves.
wildone: i am a vegetarian. i know many hunters and i got no problem with them at all. i know i cannot understand your adrenaline rush from the perfectly placed shot, but i imagine it would be similar to what i get when i do my sports (skydiving and trail running).
as far as not having the "not having the ability or the stones to provide for themselves beyond eating grass and leaves, well, that's just dumb
Why do you need all of the fancy equipment? "a fiberglass arrow tipped with a Montec G5 broadhead: and a "Martin Cheetah compound bow:. I use a Atlatl. It's a spear that is slung at the deer, sort of a "sling spear". Effective. Made 100% by me, from all natural materials. ala, native American. It has taken several deer. I didn't leisurely go in and drink coffee etc after hitting the buck. I immediately track, and dispatch the animal if needed. I do not sip coffee allowing the animal to suffer along until I deem its time to finish it, or it bleeds out. If you hunt for food as I do, you practice, you minimize suffering as much as possible. I never take mine to the packer to do the dirty work. I dress it myself, and package it myself. Nothing is wasted this way. Invest a little effort please.
I'm a vegetarian, and even I have to commend you on this. If you have to eat meat, at least give the animal the utmost respect you can. You are taking the most important and precious thing from them- and placing your life above theirs- and if you're willing to take that which is not owed to you, at least have the humility to do it the right way.
I respect your technique and dedication man, but everyone does this thang a little differently. Many hunters don't chase their prey immediately because it's the chase, not the initial wound, that releases adrenaline into the blood and makes the meat gamey, not to mention causing greater stress to the animal. Many hunters believe that a wounded deer will eventually lay down rather than run, making the tracking easier. Shoot, if the animal does not go down immediately, track 2-4 hours later, if there will be enough light and predators are not a concern. Just a thought, I actually track immediately too. Good hunting!
Immediately tracking an animal is reckless. When a deer is shot they take off running for the woods, where they search for cover. The will usually pick the nearest ditch, creek, bush or tree. If you immediately start tracking the animal, you risk pushing them further and further into the bush. This stresses out the animal, and causes it to release excess hormones which can and will spoil the meat. So, by letting the animal crawl under a tree and die peacefully, you increase your chances of recovering the animal, you save the meat, and you don't cause the animal undue stress.
Some people can't use spears for legal or physical reasons. Good on you for using one though, much respect!
No need to prove anything. You did that just fine by yourself...
The ignorance or the "vegan" and the animal rights dupes is simply amazing...wildlife exists because of the conservation efforts of hunters,fishermen and trappers....I do all three and for the 4th my family will be eating venison and Elk steaks and burgers....you vegans can go chew on a piece of tofu...
We've seen this argument a lot today, and it makes no sense. You can do a lot for the environment and be a conservationist without being a hunter.
jtv: shove your venison up your rectum
I love hunting accidents– There are more people who prefer their wild life alive then dead, stuffed and hanging on the wall– iF HUNTING IS SO ETHICAL PUT YOUR MOTHER IN THE PASTURE AND I WILL TRY TO MAKE IT A CLEAN SHOT. Then we will feed on her for a year and feel like a true conservationist because we killed our own. Ha ha see how ridiculous that argument sounds. Hunting sucks, so does factory farming nothing is ethical about killing period.. You want to be ethical stop killing animals period and go Vegan. if not than you are just blowing wind out your crusty carcass caked tail pipe.
The vegans always claim that their way is the only ethical way...yet animals are exploited for what vegans eat as well. What do you think fertilizer is?? So by buying vegetables, you are funding the ownership, captivity, and commercialization of animals in order for you to feel better about yourself. What about the millions and millions of acres of forest that have been destroyed to allow the pumping of oil? That same oil is used to create the little plastic containers your spinach and tofu comes in.
I have nothing against the vegan diet, if it works for you, then good on ya. But don't spout some pointless drivel about how your diet is somehow impacting the earth less, and how your diet doesn't harm animals. Everything we do on this planet has an effect on animals. Just our existence is the greatest effect of all. Population control on wild animals is our way of preventing death by starvation, malnutrition, and predation. The forest is only so big...it can only sustain a certain number of deer for so long.
you do realize that due to human interference in the enviroment simply not hunting would lead to wild overpopulation in some animal species right? natures solution to overpopulation is mass disease and starvation. hunting keeps animal populations at safe levels as determermined by professionals, sounds much more friendly to me.
Well said, and right to the point.
Most of the negative comments come from people who think of themselves as conservationists, but have actually very lit knowledge about wildlife, conservation, and reality in the outdoors.
I manage and conserve wildlife on several million acres in Africa, have spent obscene amounts of my own money in the silly venture, and inordinate amounts of time in the bush in close contact with wildlife and its nemesis – local rural communities.
And I hunt.
I've never encountered one single "greenie" out there DOING something useful where it counts, or achieving any meaningful result in conservation.
But I have met scores of hunters who spend money, time, and efforts towards reintroducing species and conserving existing ones. Actually, like it or not, without the hunting industry and hunters, there would be very little wildlife left in Africa – and in many other places.
Once again, well said!
Right, because to protect wildlife, you HAVE to be a hunter. Can we please get at least one intelligent pro-hunting argument on this board?
Facts are that hunters spend more money to directly support wildlife than any other group. The article does not mean that we'd keep eating as much meat, just that hunted meat, if you will, is environmenatlly more friendly than meat from large scale animal-culture farms. In Michigan my family has eaten as many as five deer in one year, which was too much. We can incorporate 1-2 easily into our diet, and buy less beef, pork and poultry.
I don't understand all the backlash from being a vegetarian. Since when should it be a bad thing that we do not wish to kill animals, and would like less of that to occur? It's a healthier lifestyle and a more ethical approach to getting food on your table. When you try to disparage those that try to promote a more conscientious and compassionate way of viewing the world, you only reflect on yourself...
The backlash comes from vegetarians and vegans pretty much telling people that they're jerks for eating meat. Killing an animal for food is neither ethical nor unethical. Causing pain for the sake of causing pain is a different story, but that's not what we're talking about. Eating meat has nothing to do with ethics or morals, it's just a fact of life. If you chose not to eat meat, that's fine. Just don't try to judge people who do.
pf: nothing like painting a group with a broad brush. here is a hint.....most of us don't give a damn what you eat.
It's two-sided really. I can tell you as a vegetarian I receive much more flack from society than meat-eaters do. We have to explain and defend ourselves much more. I can understand you hating PETA-lovers who call you vindictive, sadistic...etc...but I'm simply talking about those who scoff or laugh at vegetarians for no reason. I see no harm in my lifestyle, and I see no harm in promoting it so long as I don't call into question your character. When it comes down to it, I only ask myself and others that if we can live well off a plant-based diet, why would we choose to kill those that can feel pain as we do?
He asked where the backlash comes from. Perhaps I could have worded it differently, but I feel like it's pretty obvious that not all vegetarians/vegans feel the same way. Unfortunately, the majority of the ones who post comments on articles like this tend to be the ones that have a problem with anyone killing animals for food and are vocal about it. If you're a "live and let live" type of person then that's great, but in here you're probably in the minority.
I don't think that the "live and let live" are in the minority in real life, or on these forums. On the other hand, I have been doing this for most of my long life, and I am not all fanatic about it as some new veggies
sam stone @ jtv: shove your venison up your rectum July 3, 2012 at 1:42 pm
There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a vegetarian or vegan, that is your choice. Just as it is my choice to hunt and eat wild game.
Absolutely correct. Go out and hunt and have fun. Be safe.
I have no problem with it either, until their holier than thou attitudes are shown. I won't tolerate that for any amount of time.
Be a vegan and keep your ignorant pie hole shut about it. Those of us who know better want nothing to do with that lifestyle, just as you want nothing to do with ours. I won't make you join me, YOU WILL NOT MAKE ME JOIN YOU!
And I have no problem with meat eaters, as I am dating one for 3 years. I do have a problem with your tone and judgments, though. You are exactly the type of person I was referencing when I asked why people have such an adverse reaction to the *thought* of vegetarianism or humble vegetarians themselves. When you say you and other people know better than to partake in my lifestyle, and to shut my pie-hole, you're presuming that your lifestyle is better than mine- something you call out the vegetarians for when they try to reason about the health benefits. Hypocrisy has never, and will never be, a desireable trait. Do everyone a favor and quiet down. You've shown you're incapable of carrying out a decent and adult conversation.
No one has even attempted to answer my other question, though. If one has the option of limiting suffering, pain, and death to harmless animals, why would they not choose this?
I wonder how some of the people here would have upheld their anti-meat beliefs if they had been members of the Donner Party, or survivors of a plane crash in the Andes Mountains. They would probably be the first to say "Let's eat Billy".
gosh, that is a dumb comment.
This author has absolutely no concept of scale. Americans right now eat about 250 pounds of meat every year. Let's just say that everyone hunts for their meat and that everyone hunts deer. If the average whitetail yields 40-45 pounds of meat, Americans would have to kill 1.875 billion deer to fuel their meat consumption. There an estimated 20 million deer living in the US right now. There is simply no way that hunting could even come remotely close to providing meat at current consumption levels. Even if it could, can you imagine the destruction on forests if everyone went out and hunted their own food. What a ridiculous article. If you want to solution to ethical eating, stop eating meat.
Eat me.
No thanks, I'm vegan.
Then eat my shorts.
white or dark meat?
Agreed. I have much respect for non-sport hunters and don't begrudge them at all. But to suggest or even ponder we all take up that stance is ridiculous. Reducing our meat consumption and thereby reducing our need for commercial farms is the only answer.
if people had to kill their own meat, meat consumption would decrease significantly
Where does the author say that everyone needs to go out and hunt their own meat? It's a lifestyle choice and she is pointing out how it is a logical and acceptable one. I see nowhere that she criticizes anyone who chooses to buy their meat or avoid meat altogether. She is simply revealing her story of a lifestyle she discovered and felt it was important enough to share. I applaud her and agree with her whole-heartedly, as I live the same lifestyle. If you don't, that is fine too.
The clear implication is that those who buy factory-farmed meat are making an unethical choice. Her suggestion to correct that is wholly implausible.
In her opinion it is. In your opinion it's not. The difference is she doesn't outright criticize you as you do her. That and, again, she does not suggest everyone go out and do it. She is not offering up a solution, just an alternative.
But it's not a viable alternative based on current demand. That's my point.
You get a heck of a lot more than 45lbs of meat from a deer. I shot a doe last year that weighed 140lbs, 90lbs of meat went in the freezer.
You comment is solely based on if people only hunted deer, however there are many other wild animals that can be consumed. I hunt ducks as well, and probably eat 10-15 a year. I also hunt rabbits, again about 10-15 a year. There's also bears, grouse, squirrels, moose, elk, antelope, mule deer, sheep, plus FISHING!
I know several people who only eat wild meat, and with only taking 1 deer, 1 bear, and 1 moose annually, they are able to have surplus meat and are able to donate to local food banks.
If you got 90 pounds out of a doe, you are eating more than just the meat.
Not sure what does you have seen, but up here in Ontario, a 140lb doe is about average. Bucks approaching 300lbs are common, average being in the 225-250lb range.
Thats a heck of a lot more than 45lbs that you used for your "math".
You're taking your limited knowledge and applying it to all deer. That one deer that you saw behind Starbucks isn't the only one (or type – gasp) of deer in the country or world.
Hyperbole, theres nothing quite like it.
Its somewhat absurd to think the author is suggesting that deer, elk, etc be the only source of meat in America and that it be obtained via hunting. The author IS indicating however that its a viable alternative and that an approach like that to other animals and our food supply in general is a positive step enviromentally. The same logic might also be applied to raising domesticated animals as an example, if you raise cattle yourself you know how they were fed and treated.
The issue of eating meating is neither moral or ethical, its something intended by biology and evolution (please don't bust out the invisible benevolent man in the sky), if you don't like it have your eye teeth pulled.
Most predatory animals (which can for the sake of my point be simply defined as those with teeth inteded for eating meat) treat their prety far worse than humans do. Try watching a shark attack a seal, yes its gruesome and the animal suffers greatly, but I don't think the stuanchest enviromentalist can seriously suggest that its somehow immoral or unethical. Any difference is entirely due to the human brains ability to anthropomorphize.
No, the difference is that humans have no dietary need to be predators and humans are uniquely capable of recognizing suffering and adopting a moral code. If you want to live by the law of the jungle, then fine, let me steal from you, commit violent acts towards you, rape your family members, etc. The fact is, humans demand something more. We aren't sharks.
@Mike, you say that humans have no dietary need to be predators? Then why do you vegans need to supplement their diets. Even on the Vegetarian Voice website it lists 5 nutrients that the vegan diet lacks. 1. Protein 2. Iron 3. Zinc 4. Calcium 5. B-12. Follow the link and learn: http://www.vegetarianvoice.com/vegetarian-nutrition/7/five-nutrients-vegetarian-diets-lack/
Humans do have a dietary need for the nutrients found in meat. Just because we have developed ways to get those nutrients through supplementation doesn't make the original (natural) way the "law of the jungle". We're talking about basic nutritional needs here, so throwing theft, rape, etc. into the mix is going off topic.
Additionally, you've already pretty much said that it isn't the suffering of the animal that bothers you (since you wouldn't stop a lion from eating an antelope), it's just the fact that you don't like it when humans do it.
PF, It is entirely possible to obtain the same nutrients from plant based sources so there is no natural need to kill another animal. There are some animals that have evolved to be prey animals, but humans have not evolved to be prey animals. Consuming meat is a preference not a need.
Tom, no it's not. The biggie that comes to mind is B-12, which comes from animal products only!
@Mike....Feel free to try and steal from me, or harm my family. You will be met with the most primal instinct of all...The fight reaction, and guaranteed I am better armed than you :).
While it may be true that hunters contribute, through licensing fees, etc. to conservation, and that hunting one's food may be ethical, a concept such as "hunting" is too broad to lable as ethical. For instance, a typical hunting rifle, such as a .30/06 fires a typical 180-grain bullet with a velocity of about 2,700 feet per second, generating 2,700 foot-pounds of energy.
So, a bullet fired from the above rifle at an animal 100 yards away from the shooter will reach the animal in .1 seconds. However, the sound of the shot will take .29 seconds to reach the animal. How exactly is this type of "hunting" "ethical"? Moreover, current scopes can read the date on a nickel at that distance, and these hunters typically use 4-wheelers and other mechanical means of assistance to reach their preferred hunting grounds, as well as to bring their kill back to be cleaned and dressed. Furthermore, hunters typically bait their fields with all sorts of sweets designed to lure the animal into their sights. Again, how is this ethical?
As well, I wonder if Ms. McCalou makes as much use of the animal as she claims. Does she eat the tongue? the liver? the thymus gland (sweetbreads)? the pancreas? Does she use the hides for clothing and shelter? Does she use the sinew for ropes and other tethering uses? Does she use the hooves? Is she familiar with all the ways that primitive cultures, as well as some current cultures, use their kill in its entirety? Does she view the animal as her spiritual ancestor, and say prayers and chant incantations for the animal that offered itself in sacrifice so that she can have such enlightened views?
National Geographic aired a program years ago called "The Art of the Hunt" in which it followed a small band of African bushpeople as they literally chased their prey, running as much as 20 miles a day for several days, in hopes of running the animal into exhaustion so that they could get close enough to kill it by hurling rudimentary spears and arrows into its flesh. Once this was accomplished, the hunters had a small celebration, quickly field dressed the animal, and then traveled back to their homes to feed their families. Mind you, these hunters are carrying fresh kill for several days, undoubtedly being tracked themselves by predatory animals. Once home, a few days rest, and then back to it. That's ethical hunting!! As well, I'm reminded of the scene in the movie "First Blood" where Rambo drops out the tree to spear the wild boar, a most ferocious animal. That's ethical hunting!!
If you want to get all-technical on us, what would you call trout fishing with a rod and reel filled with 15# test line and Mepps spinning lures? I would call that "catching dinner".
The tools used in a hunt have nothing to do with whether its ethical or not. Some people want to ensure that they dispatch the animal quickly and efficiently. Therefore, they use high powered rifles with scopes. It allows them to take the best shot in the given situation. I would think that a conscious regard for the suffering of an animal would be considered "ethical" wouldn't it? Or should I take out grandpa's old 30-30 lever gun and just send 10 bullets down range and hope for the best?
Bahaha. You know nothing about ballistics or hunting. No most hunters do not use 30-06, and no they dont shoot 180 grain bullets out of them and no they are not traveling at 2700 fps.
Try this. I shoot a 300 win mag, 165 grain Nosler Ballistic tips traveling at 3200 fps. They are cranking. I hit deer right behind the shoulder and they drop immediately.
I do not use an ATV to hunt. I walk, ALWAYS. I pack out the meat on my back to the road where my rig is parked on a legal roadway.
I feed my family with this meat all year. I butcher and wrap all of my meat. I dont go for antlers, never have. I go for the healthy, lean, un messed with meat it provides.
We as humans are omnivores. You can choose to go against nature, be my guest.. but dont you for one second act like you know me or what I do to prepare for successful one shot clean harvests on the deer and elk i hunt.
I go to great lengths to do it old school, work hard, hike, shoot alot, and treat the animals with respect for giving my family food.
I was raised to be respectful and honest. Work hard and do whats right. Some of you need your butts spanked and put on a farm where your precious wheat and grain products you love so much is raised and harvested. Might change your perspective.
Are you so sure that Rambo was an "ethical" hunter? If I remember the movie First Blood correctly, he only cut off and used one hind quarter (haunch); that would mean he left the rest of the pig's carcass lying around and going to waste.
There is nothing ethical about taking the life of another, so don't bother padding yourselves on the back. The author is completely off base and probably is paid by the NRA and the hunting and fishing industries. Follow the money. You'll see.
I do agree that it's better to hunt and fish for your food than eat food that comes from factory farms and fisheries, that's if you only eat food that has been hunted or fished. If you still shop at grocery stores, than you're defeating the purpose.
However, hunting (and fishing) are not a sport. I wish people would stop calling it that. Calling it a sport, harvesting, culling, and other such terms are used to sugarcoat what's really going on. Just call it what it is, killing defenseless animals.
It's also not conservation. True conservation is when you protect an area so that nature can thrive without human interference, encroachment, or use. The only reason why hunters and fisherman protect these areas is so they can have an area to kill and destroy the nature they are protecting. I guess putting up a fence, with a "Do not Trespass" sign, around an area that's about to get a mall is conservation too.
Then there is the topic of Wildlife Management. Wildlife doesn't need management. Nature knows what it's doing. It's humans that need management. We need to learn to live in harmony with the world instead trying to take it over. We don't own it, it owns us.
I also question the mentality of those who love to kill defenseless animals, and even hang the head of an animal on their wall.
Now, I've known some hunters and fisherman to "genuinely care" about the animals they're killing who are against keeping trophies. They are also against hunting animals released in small areas, fish thrown in a pond, and killing in a inhumane way where instantaneous death is preferred. Their only reason is to eat and provide food for nature afterwards–Native style.
However, those who take joy in taking the life of another should have their heads examined. Many have the same mentality as serial killers, although in a way, they are serial killers, but instead of human, they kill non-human. There must be a study somewhere. If not, there should be.
I feel the same way about those in the military. If they come back with PTSD, they're normal.
In the end, there is no need to take life when it's healthier, more environmentally friendly, and more humane to be a Vegetarian or more importantly a Vegan.
What's the point in human existence if we don't aspire to evolve in life and create a more peaceful world for all. Certainly nature would be much better without us. Human activity is destroying the world. Don't think for a second that the world will tire of us and find a way to take us out. It's already started.
Remember we are problem, but we can also be the solution.
Peace:)
Your comment is so long winded and off base that it is difficult to even respond to. Just about everything you said is wrong, wrong, wrong, and you offer no facts to back up your anti-hunting opinion. All I can say is that you need to stop with the generalities that support your anti-hunting agenda and look at it from a "hunter/conservationist" perspective based on facts and not rhetoric.
Your diatribe makes it quite evident that you are the problem and should consider taking the steps to rid yourself of it in the best interest of humanity.
GOT GAME???
Animals and insects are not people nor equal to people. Squirrels and rabbits are tasty. Anyone who thinks that dogs, cats, and deer possess the same rights as humans are un-compassionate and deluded. I weep for society and laugh at the irony. I am looking forward to the 4th of July where I will celebrate that we can all state our opinions while I grill a hamburger, a pork chop, and drink a beer.
Whens the last time you brushed your teeth? Please notice that through evolution or if you believe in God, which i doubt, you were givin 32 omniverous teeth. Pure and simple.
Ease, ignore the trolls. It's fine if people want to disagree, but some of these posters are so angry and insulting. Especially the ones advocating hunting; isn't that interesting? Your post was thoughtful and had a lot of good information in it.
You're right. Due to the fact that I hunt and provide "healthy" food for my friends and family i am a blood-thirsty barbarian. I am devoid of any form of compassion or remorse. I am short tempered and angry at the world.
All that I have to say is that I grew up my whole life hunting to feed our family! I have never said anything bad about anyone who is vegetarian or vegan the way I view it is that's your opinion and do what you like don't preach it on others. I found it very offensive when you said that people who hunt should have there head examined!! I am not going to get into all the bs about hunting and vegetarians but I just think that you don't really have to go on calling other people down because they don't agree with you!
The article has a lot of very good points but as for the commenters wtf!! To go as far as bringing serial killers and people at war into this isn't that a little much?? People that are proud to call them selves hunters are the farthest thing from serial killers! You should really do more research before blasting other people for what they do!!
I realize I can’t change people. They have to change themselves, but my point about hunters (and fisherman) being like serial killers relates to a state of mind that sees the victim as a thing with no feelings.
If you read my point carefully, I was talking about those who enjoy killing, those who take trophies, etc. One must become apathetic in order to enjoy such a thing.
I don’t know. I’m sorry I don’t understand that, but that’s me, and many others like me who are sensitive to all living beings.
I believe, for me, to understand others, it’s important to understand why certain people do what they do.
I apologize if I’ve insulted anyone.
It would take more space than possible here to delve into the "deep" sensitivity levels you seem to hold passionately. You can do some research and verify this. This planet will reach unsustainable "human" population levels in just 100 years based on the rate of current growth.
I'm sure you have heard about Obamacare leaving out a provision for seniors. Do you think that was by accident? No. It was by design to help curb this rate of growth by allowing senior citizens to "pass on" sooner than later. So how does this behavior make you feel about the human condition that you portray? "All things living." We're already killing old people off!, Yeah, not with a shotgun and we're not making trophies of them and we don't like the taste of human meat. We bury them and place an epitaph on their place of rest.
So when you compare people to animals, you must consider the rules of natural selection and how that affects the survival of the human race. If you don't like meat. Fine. If you don't hunt. Fine. But to demean others because of your personal choices is misguided, at best.
There is nothing unethical about killing an animal for food.
LMAO you are absolutely pathetic. Glad I will never meet such a loser.
Life of another?? You act as if we are killing humans for consumption. Ridiculous left wing liberal nuts.
If my post is too long and too hard to understand I apologize. Maybe I should’ve put it all in bullet points. I should be writing a blog instead.
My point was although a hunter and fisherman kill their own food is better than getting food from factory farms and fisheries, there is nothing ethical about killing another sentient being. It’s not a sport nor is it conservation. It’s killing a defenseless animal, nothing more, nothing less.
Maybe it’s a way to get out ones violent tendencies. I don’t know. I’m still trying to figure it out why one would kill another. There is a definite lack of empathy toward others whether it be a human or non-human. It’s all about difference though.
Just remember, those you treat badly, have feelings and emotions just like you. Before doing something to another, imagine it happening to you first. Go through the experience yourself. There is a sentient being with family members on the other side of that gun or hook.
I’m not stopping you from what you’re doing. I’m just asking you to think about it. That’s all.
I have empathy for others which is why I’m involved in not only animal rights, but also human rights, and the environment. We’re all connected my friends, we’re all connected.
Peace:)
What bothers me most here is not the article, but the inability of the commenters to have any kind of intelligent and civil discussion. It's all attack, attack and "I'm right and you're wrong." Here's what I think. The author is right in a lot of ways–if you're going to eat meat, hunting is the most ethical way of doing so for the reasons she listed above. It's a good argument, and one that I, as a vegetarian, agree with. I don't eat meat for my own reasons and a big part of that is the way commercially raised animals are treated. I'm not vegan, I raise my own hens and ducks for eggs and they are well-cared for and loved as pets, I try to go easy on milk and cheese or buy it from local farms. We all do what we're willing to do to improve the planet. But for those of you blasting vegetarians and vegans, grow up. Humans eat meat because as we evolved, we had to eat what we could, plus we were constantly moving as well as weathering the cold and other temperature shifts, plus the human life span was pathetic. But, as we evolve socially, we need less meat. Eating too much of it causes obesity., contributes to diabetes and heart disease and uses too much of the world's resources to produce too little food. Go do the research–it takes enough resources to feed four to five humans to produce enough beef to feed one. That makes NO sense at all as our population continues to expand at an alarming rate. Now, what each individual chooses to do about it is his/her decision. I'd hope that we'd cut back on our meat consumption, maybe consider eating more ethically-produced meat and I really hope we all stop slamming on one another for being different. People, we're not in fifth grade here.
There is only one truly ethical dietary choice, and that is veganism.
Then why do you have pointed teeth called canines? Tearing vegetables? Not hardly! For tearing meat.
We also have tonsils and an appendix. I'm married but daydream about handsome strangers, and I'd really love wash down some Vicodin with a glass of bourbon right now. Do we have to act on every impulse that comes our way, or is there a better way of doing things? We have brains, let's use them. Unlike your tonsils, appendix, or canine teeth, our minds can serve a valuable purpose. Veganism is the only truly ethical dietary choice out there, and as an added bonus you'll be healthier than ever before and drastically reduce your negative environmental impact. Makes sense to me.
Haven’t you heard that PETA was blaming global warming on Canadian Moose farts? True story, look it up.
I'm certainly not a member of PETA. What does that have to do with anything?
Not to me. Your tonsils and appendix are vestigeal organs, your canines aren't. They are still used for something. You can't get all the nutrients your body needs just from vegetables. I will grant you that you can't from meat either. the two go together. Humans are predatory animals by nature. Are there unethical hunters? Yes. Are there a vastly larger number of ethical hunters? Yes as well. I love to hunt and I use the meat and hide. Some say it's not fair. I am in their environment. Animals can typically hear and smell a heck of a lot better than humans. My sucess/hunt ratio is not 1:1. But I don't mind if I come back empty. I enjoy being out in nature.
Tim, I respect your opinion and your love of nature. I too love nature, although I prefer to leave a light footprint. I might take a rock home with me once in a while, but never a life. I just wanted to add that the idea that you can't get all your nutrients from a vegan diet is false. B-12 is the only nutrient a vegan diet is missing, and from what I've read it might have something to do with our obsession with sanitizing every vegetable before we eat it. Which, of course, is a good idea when you grow your veggies in sh*t. But I digress :-) The problem is easily solved with a supplement. The B-12 it contains is produced by bacteria. So if the nutritional 'debate' is the only thing standing in your way on your path to health and true communion with nature, problem solved.
>I'm married but daydream about handsome strangers, and I'd really love wash down some Vicodin with a glass of bourbon right now.<
I’d say you are in position to talk about ethics.
Along with a steak and fois gras.
I'm a vegan meat eather. I eat a salad before my steak.
"Eat the rich".
...for you Mike, not for everyone. Your personal ethics are just that, yours.
You can shove your hoiler than thou patheticness right up your you know what. Your ethics are not anyone's but yours. You will not foist your nonsense on me.
From now on I dedicate every kill to you and all other losers like you.
I just realized that my food poops on your food...just saying.
Oh, lord. Hunting is killing, plain and simple. It is barbaric and unnecessary. Just leave the animals alone!
OH Lord your'e killing me with your lame ass comments.
Then you're just about ready to slay an entire population, because your comments are lamer.
Oh lord, stfu
The human body requires certain nutrients that are found in meat. This is why vegans need to supplement their diet with pills or they will become seriously ill. The killing of animals isn't barbaric, it is a necessity for human life. I guess the Health Department has it all wrong when they recommend 2-3 servings of meat products a day....some uneducated granola muncher on a public forum is right.
From the American Dietetic Association: "It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes."
Also, the USDA recommends protein, not meat.
Hunters do a TON for conservation. The most I see environmentalists do is complain about what everyone else is doing, but hunters go out and GET IT DONE. Some examples of things I did in my youth, volunteering with organizations such as the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, Ducks Unlimited, National Wild Turkey Federation, and Oregon Hunters Association –
-Plant aspen saplings for miles along riverbanks
-Build barbed wire enclosures around mature aspen stands
(aspen bark is a food source for deer and elk in the winter when they can't get to grass, cows tend to eat it, and then there's none for the cervids in the hard winter months.)
-Pick up trash in the wilderness
-Raise THOUSANDS of dollars through fund raisers and banquets, that hunters from counties around travel to, in order to raise money to preserve wetlands and wilderness.
-rescue orphaned critters from road kills, and raise them to be able to be released back into the wild.
-reporting, collecting, and destroying invasive plant species
Those were just a few things. What do other 'environmentalists' do? Hold a sign (which they'll throw in the trash) and complain.
There's a good reason I can't take those types seriously.
This post seems to imply that the only way to be a meaningful conservationist is to hunt.
Not really, but you did hit on a key word – 'meaningful'. You can be a meaningful conservationist without being a hunter, but most of them aren't, because they really aren't all as vested in the wilderness as they think they are. Hunters have something at stake, so tend to work harder at making it all work.
For example, take the Peregrine falcon, and falconers. The Audubon hates falconers, because they're a bunch of bird watchers, and falconers take birds from the wild and use them to hunt other birds. So they assume falconry = bad. Then you have the Peregrines going almost extinct, and falconers bringing them back from that brink by breeding them, taking young from the wild and teaching them to hunt before releasing them (falcons are never pets, always a wild animal, and usually go back to the wild after the season- birds in the wild don't have a very high chance of making it to adulthood even when the population is healthy). So hunters may have completely saved the species, and all the Audubon Society wanted to do was take donations and complain about falconers.
It's different when you have something you love on the line, versus something you are in love with the idea of being in love with.
We shouldn't kill and eat animals in the first place and then we wouldn't need hunters to do all these things. Switching to a plant-based diet would free up most of our tillable land; will protect the forests from cutting; we would preserve 70% of our fresh water (that is how much we use for meat and dairy production); we would not use so much pesticides and chemicals; we will protect our rivers, lakes and oceans... read some of the reports that started revealing the damages done to our planet by eating an animal based diet. Hopefully the doctors will also accept and look into the plant-based diet. All it takes is for the governmental departments to start a research and compare vegans verses meat-eaters. They will be surprised by how much healthier we vegans are….
You seem to think that a plant based diet means animals won't still die.
They do. All the time. Animals die every day for you food. Is the life of a deer more valuable than that of the mouse or rabbit that was caught up in the combine that harvested your vegetables? What about those animals that live on that land you want to till, they still need to eat as well.
There's a saying I really like, "If 'ifs' and 'buts' were candies and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas". Meaning, you can say 'if people would blah blah blah' all you want, but you're not helping anything at all, and your ideals really aren't even as ideal as you think they are.
OK so we go to plant-based diet. Farming increases substantially causing more use of pest/herbicides, increased erosion etc. Now since hunting has become unpopular for management of numbers populations explode and in return we have wholesale killing of those wild animals to "protect" the crops. Furthermore your statement on saving the forests is ludicrous. The litigation of timber sales across the country for the last 50 years has created extremely unhealthy habitats. Damaging all types of flora/fuana. Hence the catastrophic fires occurring in the mtn states right now.
You are 100% wrong and this is backed by proven science. Please just shut up.
HUNTING IS NOT A SPORT. "Sport is when individuals or teams compete against each other under equal circumstances to determine who is better at a given game or endeavor. Hunting will be a sport when deer, elk, bears, and ducks are given 12-gauge shotguns."
Who said it was a sport?
You hunters did. Why do you call yourselves "sportsmen"? You don't really think dressing up in camo and shooting wild animals dead from a safe distance away with your high powered rifle is considered a sport now do ya? It it was a sport, it would be considered a sport for cowards who love killing wildlife.
Spare us of your own definitions of a word. Sport (or, in the United States, sports) is all forms of competitive physical activity which,[1] through casual or organised participation, aim to use, maintain or improve physical fitness and provide entertainment to participants.[2] Hundreds of sports exist, from those requiring only two participants, through to those with hundreds of simultaneous participants, either in teams or competing as individuals.
I pretty much agree with her views but would point out that one is probably more likely to get trichinosis from bear meat than from pork and there is also tularemia from rabbits. I would add fish to the menu – I have a little less compassion for them.
Antibiotic use in agriculture is a major factor in the development of resistance. Bacteria trade resistance genes like kids used to trade baseball cards. It takes a prescription to get an antibiotic like cipro at the local pharmacy but only a 20 dollar bill to get a few pounds of it at your local feed store – same drug. I believe the impact of hormone use is largely unexplored but is probably similar.
After seeing the movie of folks using an end loader to move a downed cow, I have real problem eating beef. At least I am doing my own dirty work when I pop a squirrel or arrow a doe. I smell the warm guts and get their blood on my hands. I know that they died so that I could eat and am grateful for that fact. OTOH thee are those that are incredibly smart and I admire their will to live.
A vegan diet is the best. Not only it boosts the immune system, but it does not come with hormones, antibiotics, cholesterol, saturated fats, denatured protein, all kinds of bacteria, feces and other unwanted elements. It comes with all the vitamins and essential amino acids (some doctors still did not update themselves with the newly discovered facts about the plant-based diet, too bad). If you started to feel sorry for an animal, think about it and expand the feeling. Eventually you will feel the same about all the animals…. Eating a plant-based diet will also keep you healthier and younger...
NOPE! Not even close to the best. the Primal Blueprint is superior to the vegan diet in every possible way. This is an undeniable fact.
People like Sarah Palin and Dick Chaney should not be allowed to hunt. They give hunting a bad name.
I hunt. I kill. I eat what I kill. As far as I'm concerned, Lily is spot on. But, unfortunately those who detest hunting and raise their angry voices against it will someday outnumber those who support it. Just like Presidential elections, the majority isn't always right. Hunting for ones meat is the purest form of naturalism that one can achieve. As a hunter, I am one with the natural world and have a deep respect for the animals that provide me with nourishment. Can you say the same when you buy your meat that is prepackaged and of unknown origin and quality? I think not. The deer I kill during the hunting season provides me and my family with a years worth of meat and helps keep them off the hood of your car.
Yes, your respect is so deep that you put a chunk metal through its body. How "natural."
I guess you would prefer to hit it with your 2000 pound car and share your front seat with a deer. Be my guest.
Ah, so now you are an officer of protection, gallantly shielding citizens from the destruction of the deer. I salute you!
And I as well salute you. With a one-fingered salute and a "raspberry" trumpet call.
What is unnatural about choosing to be an active member in the food chain? Is it not as natural as it gets?
The species evolved a brain and tool making to make up for our stubby teeth, puny little nails and relatively poor running ability (good endurance but poor speed). The result is a Hoyt or Browning. Shrimp and oysters are animals just the same as cattle and plants are living too. Try as I may, I can't come up with a good recipe for rocks that does not involve something that was once living.
The issue here is not whether something is alive, it's whether it is sentient.
"A rock feels no pain. And an island never cries."
So it's MORE natural at a slaughter house?
One very important difference to consider with hunting compared to a natural ecosystem is this: In a natural ecosystem, it's survival of the fittest. The old, sick and crippled animals can't compete for food and can't escape from predators as well as the fittest, so they get eaten. Only the strongest animals survive to reproduce. Over time, the herd or flock gets stronger and better adapted to their environment. After hunters are introduced in this ecosystem, they mostly want to take home the biggest goose, duck or that trophy buck. By taking the strongest, most fit individuals from the herd, over time the herd gets weaker and less adapted, leading to decline. Hunters need to take the weaker animals if they truly want to be conservationists.
John,
Regardless of what I think of your comment, you should know that the common use of "Survival of the Fittest" is incorrect. In science, it actually refers to one's ability to reproduce, i.e., someone with 5 offspring is more 'fit' than someone with just 3. When people use this term incorrectly, it's like nails on a chalkboard to me!
John- I find your comments interesting...I can tell you are not a hunter, and that is not to be condescending, just merely an observation. To say hunters alter the health of a herd of deer of flock of birds is simply unfounded in any sort of research. Let's take snow geese, for example. Their overpopulation has reached an almost epidemic level that is resulting in average adult weight being significantly less than it was a decade ago, because there are too many birds for their arctic habitat. If there was not a special conservation season for these waterfowl, who knows how much the situation would have been exacerbated. Also, to generalize hunters together as wanting to harvest the biggest of everything they can seems unfair to me. I think if you asked most hunters about their most memorable hunts, many would tell you of a great sunrise enjoyed with friends. Thanks.
Mike, I understand where you are coming from with your argument about survival of the fittest however a very small percentage of animals today have any natural predator other than man. As a result populations grow unchecked, disease spread quickly and overgrazing leads to nutritional issues. Additionally, regulated hunting provides financial support to the vast majority of wildlife management (Depts of Natural Resources) today. Like it or not hunters are necessary to the existence of many species today.
If you have ever hunted, particularly birds you would know that it is near impossible to choose the "quality" of your game. It is simply too hard to identify if it is the appropriate species, and legal (male female) before your shot opportunity is gone. As for big game, 97% of hunters are public land hunters. That "trophy buck" hunter you see is the product of television and we all know what the reality of those on TV is.....not very close to everyday people like you and me.
If it was all about "trophy" hunting then states would not provide tags for females or have antler restrictions such as "spike only" on males.
That's an assumption of someone who doesn't know anything about hunting.
Not all hunters are only out for the trophy, they're actually a minority. And I'll tell you why, because it's very easy to see.
Most hunters want some meat in the freezer. Hunting season only lasts so long. I don't know what you think about deer and elk, but the ones from my neck of the woods somehow KNOW when it is hunting season, and they get the hell out of dodge for the most part. So you've got a hunter who's been out in the woods for a few days, it's cold and wet, and where the hell are the animals? THERE'S ONE SHOOT IT! Who cares if it's a little spike buck or Bambi's dad, they just want to fill their tag.
Exclusive trophy hunters are their own breed of people, but they certainly don't represent most hunters.
Well-said John and I'm REALLY glad you brought up this point. It is the extent that a hunter will seek out and kill ONLY the genetically weaker animals - the animals that would have otherwise been killed and eaten by mountain lions, etc. - that is the extent to which they are participating in the natural system. Otherwise they are acting absolutely against it … and I have yet to meet a hunter that has shown a sensitivity to this concern, much less been aware of it prior to my pointing it out to them.
No animal can outrun a bullet or survive having both of their lungs collapsed by an arrow, ETC. therefore humans hunting can never be a part of a truly wise wildlife management program.
Hunting seasons are timed so they do not interfere with breeding season. Genes of the strong and fit carry on. There's no net impact to the genepool.
As a hunter and fisher with an anthropological background, this argument has sparked my interest. Especially the statement, "why do we still have to cause screaming and pain when we can be healthy and happy without doing it? it's the 21st century... time to elevate ourselves higher. .... be humane (humane means no killing)" I get it, there is a concern for the death of an animal and the suffering. A true hunter knows that its about the best shot, not the first shot, so there is no suffering. However, I am more intrigued by the idea that we would be elevating ourself higher by becoming vegan or vegetarian... if i am understanding that statement correctly, retracing our evolutionary footsteps by about 3.5 million years would be elevating ourself? Elevating ourselves should involve moving forward, not backward... it should involve embracing the fact that we succeeded as a species and we are not still trying to remove ants and termites from their homes using a stick. Also, before you bash hunters, you should become informed, I will not say much about your lifestyle because I am not fully informed, all i know is that it is not for me, if it makes you happy good for you, thats what this life is about, being happy. Happiness to me is sunrise over duck decoys or white tail running through the woods. to each his own, right?
Elevating ourselves means elevating to a higher level of conscious, be more compassionate and loving – we must treat others as we wish to be treated. We elevated when we stopped the sacrificing of others, slavery, implementing the human rights and others. If you think that killing animals is not in the same category, how come we love our pets and know that they have pain and are smart and love life…. In China is normal to torture and eat dogs – the more they torture the more they think the meat tastes better…. I am happy when I know someone else (including an animal) is happy… but I guess you are of a different kind…
OMG what an absolutely pathetic philosophy. There is no end goal of humanity. There is no requirement to become what you think humanity should become. People like you are the scum of the earth.
I'll hunt till the day I die and while I am enjoying my harvests I'll think of losers like you and laugh.
People in China are also very happy when they eat the ‘tasty’ flesh of a tortured dog. I’ve been vegan for 6 years, I don’t need to eat ants and termites and I’m healthier than ever. They might taste good, but not necessary for our diet. Humans started eating them not because they needed them, otherwise me and many other people, some who were vegans all their lives, would be dead by now. I also raised 2 children with no meat and dairy in the fridge and both excel in arts, music and very intelligent. I wish you could see them or I could send you some of their work They are not skinny either
Sorry Vegans are not as healthy as people who eat properly raised animal products. That is an undeniable fact. You can take your holier than thou arrogance and stick it you know where.
really?? you can say that you don't want to be vegan or vegetarian, and I respect that. but you need to study your health science. Vegans are extremely healthy people, unless they don't eat properly. which is true for all types of eaters. my vegetarian 10 year old goes to the doctor once ayear, for a physical, where she is in the 90th percentile for height and weight and is in perfect health. she's never had a stomach "virus" and missed school one day for a cold. I can't find a single omnivore or carnivore friend of hers who is as healthy. go figure...
i respect your desire to eat meat, but your science has no factual basis. my vegetarian 10 year old goes to the doctor once a year, for a check up, and she is in the 90th percentile for height and weight and is very healthy. she never has gotten a stomach "virus" and missed one day of school for a "cold". I cannot think of one omnivore or carnivore friend of hers with such a great track record. also, colon cancer runs in my family, and my doctors are very happy that i eat a plant based diet to reduce my risks of getting that disease.
Primal4Life, grow up. The vegan diet works for her and her kids, and it does work quite well for many others. Maybe you should stick it and stick it hard.
So sad. My comment is 100% correct and backed by science. Do some research for yourself. I feel sorry for your kids.
Every vegan I know is a retard. EVERY one.
Mature.
You must REALLY be a vegan.
name them, please, and explain in what way they are retarded. Einstein? Ghandi? Socrates?
wow. such a convincing argument....
Pretty girl. Too bad about the brain damage.
When you try to justify hunting by combining all the different points, which, by the way, are all well-known, you get a very superficial argument. The resulting word "ethical" becomes pretty much meaningless. You can argue against each and every one of the 5 points and worse, most if not all the points are not complementary with each other. Many people who are against factory farming are so because of compassionate and not environmental reasons – food factory might actually create a smaller overall footprint on the environment., etc. etc.
So my conclusion is that the author dump her her claim as a "environmentalist, loud an proud" and just say that she's a "hunter, plain and simple"..
Just completely wrong.
I agree with the writer but her viewpoint can be an answer only for a few.
Reason being, every wild animal in the world would have to be killed and that would still not satiate the human appetite for meat. Farming animals is the only way to do that. The real answer it to reduce meat consumption. Consume it once/twice a week at most.
meat and animals products is like alcohol or chocolate or sweets.... if you like it and you are not strong enough you will eventually eat more... we crave what we have in the blood. when one quits eating animal protein, in a matter of weeks the taste buds change and you don't crave it anymore. Why not eliminate completely animals products from our diet..... cooked blood is still blood... we are not vampires...
You sound like a mental patient lena. If I go off meat for a period, I'm simply going to eat twice what I missed when I'm allowed to go back.
Meat TASTES GOOD!
Why be at the top of the food chain, if you can't enjoy the fruits of such a position?
Seriously, just turn in your incisors and canines if all you're going to do is chew your cud.
Fred I doubt you could be any more shallow if you tried.
i bet you are very proud of your name 'Fred Evil' and consider yourself mentally stable... i wish we would have less like you
Sure I could Mike, I could trot out all sorts of silly hyperbole about the sanctity of 'eating vegan' or I could wax eloquent on the 'emotional high' I get from eating leaves and twigs.
Shallow works for me just as well as duma$$ seems to work for you.
I, and my family, eat well and live better.
Hope that puts a twig in your craw!
Sure I could, I could pretend to be 'holier than thou' like the rest of you vegans tw 1ts.
lena your argument is weak... The only reason humans are where they are today is becasue we EAT meat... Our brains would never have developed to what it is today without meat protein... I assume if the human race went vegetarian as you are suggesting, in a few million years we would probably revert back to some subspecies... use it or lose it....
Nick your argument would be much more persuasive if we were still int he early stages of human evolution. We aren't. It's time to grow up.
I think we use only about 3% of our brain... do you think that if we didn't search and kill (which does not require too much science) but instead grown our grains, vegetables and fruits, we would be more limited? An European study shows that vegetarians (vegans) children have a higher IQ by about 15%. All the philosophers and great inventors were vegetarians. (Leonardo Da Vincy, Einstein, Plato, Socrates, Pythagoras and many others.) Animal protein changes the negative charge of our red cells and they clot to each other. When 2 red cells are clotted, they will never go through a capillary and all of our bodily cells will suffer from oxygen and nutrients deficiency and their waste and carbon dioxide will not be removed. Especially suffers our brain and skin…. I wish I had more time to bring the facts…. and English is not my first language.
@Lena...Unfortunately, its this philosophy that will eventually be the downfall of the human race. A bunch of smart asses that are too "smart" for manual labor. The skilled trades are what keeps any economy moving. Look at the US's top exports...(Oil/Fuel, cars, wheat/grains, lumber)...all blue collar jobs that everyone is too lazy, sorry, too smart, to do.
Lena Honey, stop lying, Man was made to eat meat, get over it.
I'm sure the cannibals think that Man was made to eat Man
animal products are like alcohol, drugs, chocolate and sweets..... if you are not strong enough you will end up eating more. We crave what we have in our blood. When one quits eating all animal products, in a matter of weeks the taste buds change and you no longer crave it... The plant based food really becomes tasty. let's admit, eating cooked blood is no different than eating raw blood and we are not vampires
lena, you and your argument are a joke. In one post you insist that after a few weeks, your body simply 'stops craving meat' and then you no longer need it, yet in another you say that you have to be strong always.
Which is it, do you need a moment to get your B S story straight?
Killing your own dinner is just like doing your own dentistry or surgery. You aren't an expert, there will be a lot of suffering while you become one, and at the end of it, you'll wonder why you bothered in the first place.
I think it is more ethical to have an industry that keeps improving its treatment of animals, and not letting everybody make their own decisions on the lives of animals. I know people who work at slaughterhouses, and they do care if animals suffer. Some of them have worked on improving kill methods to be virtually instantaneous.
Hunt if you want to, I am against it but I don't think it should be banned. But don't make believe there is somehow a "better" associated with hunting versus the meat industry, you're fooling yourself.
Keeps improving? The entire meat industry is hell-bent on hiding the incredible suffering endured by animals. They fight tooth and nail against every single animal welfare improvement. Clearly, you have never been in a slaughterhouse.
of course eating meat can not be banned... not even God interferes with our free will. We should learn to detect what bad habits we picked up from our ancestors and eliminate them.... We've done well with human scarifies, slavery, human rights..... Killing is not something you would want to teach your children..... Killing humans and animals is not right... it kills our noble qualities.... No child would kill a cat or a dog or a chicken or a piglet unless he/she was a hunter in the previous life. in many cases these are people who kill people when the opportunity comes along
You're missing the point. I once killed a chicken with my bare hands, under supervision. My instructor told me exactly how to slit its throat and the right amount of force to apply to the knife. The bird flapped and bled for about a minute. It had a profound impact on me. I am not against consuming meat, but modern breeding methods have totally removed us from the suffering of animals. To your point the answer is to reduce meat consumption since every wild animal in the world could be killed and mankind would still need infinitely more.
rh, you are so wrong in so many ways. You should visit a factory farm someday. See the sick animals that are grain fed, not allowed to wander and graze, stand on concrete all day and then have their short lives ended in hideous ways. I don't want you to hunt if you don't want to, but don't comment on things you don't know about. When I take an animal it is a quick and humane put down that is well thought out and helps keep the animal population healthy and in check (because we have killed off all the natural predators in order to protect our cattle). For you to imply that somehow hunting and harvesting an animal in the wild is more savage than what is done in the factory farms and slaughter houses just shows a total lack of knowlege on the subject.
You obviously know little about hunting or the massive meat market and how they slaughter. I would rather be shot by a hunter (like my Dad or brother) then be dismembered while still alive after receiving only a shock that barely stemmed the massive fear from hearing and knowing what is to come. Educate yourself before you speak, and we'll all be better off.
You are the one who needs 'educating'.
You know nothing – absolutely nothing – about how animals are slaughtered in the U.S. or you wouldn't have made such an absolutely ignorant, uninformed, and blatantly untruthful statement.
RH, spoken like someone who as never been closer to a slaughter house than the meat counter at Whole Foods. Commercial meat processing is about efficient production, not ethical ways of killing and bleeding.
i am 100% vegan 100% of the time and have been vegetarian then vegan since 1976 when i was 14 (i'm 50).
i respect hunters who take responsibility for their murder much more than i respect "animal lovers" who "could never kill anything" but have no problem buying their carcass wrapped up in styrofoam and plastic.
"i am 100% vegan 100% of the time"
Sorry to hear that, hope you get better soon!
did anyone tell you that you are Evil? :)
People who have limited wisdom and Evil stuck to them mislead others since the beginning of time… as a result we all suffered
Those who fear a label (such as a name) are the ones who get stuck drinking spiked kool-aid made by someone else.
Enjoy your cup!
Humans have no biological need to eat meat. Once that basic fact is accepted, all killing of sentient animals becomes barbaric.
You, like everyone else, is entitled to your own opinion. There is nothing wrong with that, and I thing everybody here would agree.
However, when you try to 'push' your opinion on everybody else, or insist that "your way" is the only 'right' way, and that everybody who doesn't see things that way is "wrong", then you just make a complete and total a _ _ of yourself. And you're doing a fantastic job of that, you deserve a raise.
Hunters are actually not an important part of maintaining natural populations..... I've never heard of a newly found island or a wild place where humans did not set their foot to have problems with 'natural population'. Nature balances itself if humans don't interfere and everyone eats what they are meant to eat by nature. Humans are herbivorous and I mean ALL humans. Some just have a stronger DNA and do not develop diseases as earlier as others from animal protein. Animal products kill and I am glad more and more research and experiments are done recently on the health of vegans verses meat eaters. For example, diabetes can be healed in about a month on a vegan diet. Our intestine is herbivorous…. and we should learn compassion and love in this lifetime, otherwise is a waste of time.
First off, I respect your veganism and fully understand the environmental benefits of veganism. However, it is dangerous to put the idea out there that veganism will cure dieases like diabetes. There are different types of diabetes some of which can not be cured by diet. The Inuet eat diets largely based on meat and show little signs of heat disease and diabetes. I recommend reading In Defense of Food by Michael Pollan. Also, humans are omnivores and we evolved that way as evidenced by tools and animal bones found at ancient human garbage caches by archeologists/anthropologists.
actually, you may want to check the facts about the inuet's health, i've heard very different facts, and look at their life expectancy (without modern medicine intervening, too). they also have a high rate of osteoporosis due to the high animal protein in their diet (it takes calcium out of the bloodstream to digest animal proteins).
Do a little more research before you start posting about animal over population. Of course you never heard of animal over population because your ears are closed when that subject comes up.
"Hunters are actually not an important part of maintaining natural populations..... I've never heard of a newly found island or a wild place where humans did not set their foot to have problems with 'natural population'. Nature balances itself if humans don't interfere..."
Would it help you if I refer to myself as a predator rather than a hunter? I don't interfere with nature I am a part of it. You have some interesting beliefs but the main one seems to revolve around your own smug sense of superiority. Not everyone can, or wants to live as you do. Go to Mongolia and try to convince the nomadic peoples there to become as "enlightened" as you are. Try to convince a Lakota of the evils of his ancestor's ways.
Lena, you are misunderstanding the point of population control. Yes, nature does balance itself out. If there are too many wolves, they will eat more deer that can be reproduced. With no food, the wolves will die of starvation and the deer population will recover. Same thing goes with the deer's diet of vegetation...if there are too many deer, they will eat too much of the foliage and deer will die of starvation. By allowing hunting, those deer that would die of starvation and be wasted, are harvested and consumed by humans. Hunters also help control the predator population, thus preserving the smaller animals like deer, rabbits, etc.
Whenever humans interfered with nature they ruined it. Humans were not supposed to kill animals for food. Check what the Bible had to say originally (2nd page). Check what Socrates, Einstein, Plato, Leonardo Da Vinci, Pythagoras, Buda and most of the great minds that brought invention to our world had to say about killing animals. They were vegetarians..... and their brain capacity exceed ours.
Last I checked, humans were part of nature. How can their "interference" be any different than other animals of nature? I understand that as a whole humans are idiots, self-serving morons that don't think ahead or see the big picture, but the fact remains that they ARE a part of nature, pure and simple. This planet will not be able to sustain all of its inhabitants for much longer because humans, with their superior intelligence, continue to discover ways to keep us alive longer, unnaturally, and therefore will continue to put pressure on the food supplies, clean air and water, etc.
Once man defied God's order NOT to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (original sin), God was the first to kill an animal, part of His own creation. He did so to cover man and woman, as they now, for the first time recognized that they were naked. From that time, man was given the right to kill to eat. He was later commanded to kill as an atoning sacrifice for his sins.
As a hunter, I hunt both for sport and for the meat. I hunt only what I and my family will eat, or can give to another for food. The meat processor I use donates the hides from deer to be used to make leather gloves for veterans. They also have a program to donate any meat not wanted by a hunter to feed the hungry. I make a point to thank God for both the game harvested and the ability and freedom to hunt.
That probably explains why there are so many prehistoric cave drawings of people eating roots, fruit and vegetables. Seriously, I have no doubt that you know very little about what "most" great minds had to say about eating meat.
You might to explain this to the female dear that stumbled into my backyard yesterday with a gaping gunshot wound through it's upper chest and front leg. Some jack as s shot it out of season, but missed enough of it to seriously wound it, but not kill it.
That's why I think hunting them is barbaric.
That's not typical of most hunters. It would be a shame if you judge all hunters by what this one person did. I hunt, but if I knew the person that did this I would be the first to call law enforcement on them.
It is like everything else, they want to make their own decisions to the extent that they ignore the consequences.
My child just had her tonsils out, and I had a doctor do it. Maybe I could have done it, but there would have been a lot of suffering.
Hunting for sport is just an excuse for transferring a need to hurt humans to a need to hurt other living things. Hunting for food is bullcrap for 99.99999% of people.
Your numbers lie. Remove yourself from the city and then you'll see entire families living off of what Daddy hunts and kills.
rh – Really – every hunter is a repressed human killer??? You have taken this argument to a new level of absurdity.
sad, and these stories aren not uncommon. people are warned to stay out of the woods during hunting season lest they be shot "by accident", and so many dogs and livestock animals get shot during hunting season that it is ridiculous. and let's not forget that great hunter Dick Cheny who shot his friend in the face!!!
Derp, first of all, unless you are a forensic pathologist familiar with gunshots and was close enough to examine the wound, you are in no position to determine what caused the injury to the deer. More likely a car than a gunshot, Second, hunters and law enforcement have a name for people who chose to shoot animals out of season: criminals. On a related topic, I would be willing to bet that most of the arrests of people who shoot/trap/kill animals out of season are made as a result of hunters turning them in to law enforcement in the first place.
First of all that is a poacher not a hunter and every hunter hates poachers. Also for every animal out there that is wounded by a hunter there is a heck of a lot more running around with gaping wounds from predators(coyotes, wolves, lions, cats) that didn't get the job done.
While I'm sure some hunters are passionate about the environment and thus, avoid factory farmed meat, most groups that support (or rather, PROFIT off of hunting) use the 'environmental' angle as an excuse to enjoy their hobby. Hunters–more than anything–love the thrill of dominating another species, and of taking life. At the end of the day, a life is a life, and murder is murder–whether you aim your gun at a deer or a human being. Humans don't need meat to survive and thrive.
When you don't know something you just make it up. Your post is nonsense.
I actually know several hunters, and my dad is an ex-hunter.
Then you either know some pretty bad people, or you learned absolutely nothing from them. As long as you are indicting people for hunting perhaps you would like to go ahead and indict the entire Native American culture, particularly the tribes of the great plains. Yes, those people had no appreciation for the land or nature. You are typical of those sorts of judgmental people who want to tell everyone else how to live. Makes you feel superior does it?
From what you wrote, I certainly wouldn't consider your dad a "hunter" in any capacity.
It's not just that we don't need meat, it's that we don't need meat that is hunted down and injured then dies at some point.
I am an omnivore, and know people in the slaughterhouse industry as well as livestock farmers. There is a heck of a lot of care that goes into making sure animals that end up on our table don't suffer.
I used to fish as a kid, until I realized how much suffering the fish went through. It may be "fun" but I can play sports or a video game and have as much fun.
The "god syndrome" is a huge part of hunting – power over another's life. Any hunter, or fisherman for that matter, who tells you otherwise is a liar.
Wow, your idiocy knows no bounds. No all hunters are liars...
rh – Since you are so against suffering... How do you feel about abortion? Do babies feel their bodies being sucked apart while still alive? Do they feel scissors being inserted at the base of their skulls and twisted to end their lives? Do you justify this suffering for the sake of convenience or human rights?
So you're saying you would treat a pet dog or cat with the same love as a son or daughter? Also, I wonder how many murders you have committed by killing poor defenseless insects. You should be on death row by now! Oh right, you probably don't believe that murder should be taken care of with capitol punishment.
I have a question for tree huggers. Are only CERTAIN animals worthy of killing? Like rats and roaches? Or do we not kill anything? Arent plants living things too? Im serious these are not rhetorical questions
Hard to imagine you are too serious when you use the term tree-hugger.
Hi Curtis–compassionate people who support animal rights don't believe in killing rats or cockroaches either ;) Animals (including humans) are sentient beings (any living creature who has developed enough consciousness and awareness to experience feelings, particularly suffering). Plants are alive, but they aren't sentient beings. Not only is eating a plant-based diet humane and ethical–but it is also THE best way to support the environment and better your health.
Figures to have at least one person offering this kind of comment. As far as we know, plants do not have brains and do not experience fear and pain.
Hunting is by definition an activity that leads to suffering. There are too many variables in place to ensure a clean kill.
I eat meat, and know that animals are killed so I can have my burgers and ribs. But there is a huge difference between a bull getting killed in a slaughterhouse, where there are regulations about making sure suffering is a minimum, and shooting at something that is trying to get away.
Hunting is you playing God, period. It only exists because certain people feel powerless in their lives and interactions with humans, so killing an animal makes them feel better. Hunting for sport or food is meaningless for most people.
Saying that hunting is traditional and therefore valuable is like saying that rape is traditional and therefore valuable. We know better now.
While I agree with your thoughts about hunting, you should know that there is also a GREAT DEAL of suffering with animals on factory farms and in slaughterhouses. There are also very few regulations (and any that exist are rarely enforced) in order to reduce farm animal suffering.
rh – You said "Hunting for sport or food is meaningless for most people." What makes you qualified to know the inner thoughts of "most people"?
MANY hunters place great value on the hunt even more than they do the kill. MANY hunters go so far as to consider a hunt succesful even when they never fired a shot or sent an arrow flying. There is a commaraderie between hunters that goes far beyond slapping high fives after an animal is down. There is a respect both for the animal and its environment. There is a bonding of hunters that takes place in nature that goes beyond the understanding of "antis". I respect your right to choose to not hunt, but please, don't pretend to know the minds of those who choose to hunt. I'll admit there are "bad apples" in every sub-group of people. MANY hunters look down on those who call themselves hunters who do not follow ethical and lawful pursuit of game animals. We also try to distance ourselves from those folks who don't respect the animals we hunt and the environment where they live.
Very well written article. I've had family and friends my entire life that hunted and fished. Personally, I'm a fisher myself, but I've been thinking about getting into small game hunting near my house. I like the idea of knowing where my food is coming from, and having spent most of my life in cattle/pig country, I'm well acquainted with slaughter houses. I actually enjoy spending my time out looking for wild vegetables as well. I have several very good books/guides on local native edibles/medicinals. I feel more comfortable knowing that I can identify most of the good and bad things in my area. Gives me a sense of connection with the place I live.
I guess I can cook up that possum I ran over last night with some onions. A La Carte....
many people do eat road kill and consider it very ethical.
Reason #6 (I am surprised she missed this one) – In many areas, there are not sufficient natural predators to keep the game populations healthy. I live in Illinois, and in areas where hunting occurs, the deer are plentiful, but not over abundant, and the herds are healthy. Near Chicago, where hunting can't occur due to population densities, the DNR has to come in and thin the populations to prevent them from becoming diseased. hunting
Thats actually points #4 and #5. Conservation includes game management.
one of the main reasons why there are no natural predators is because they have all been killed by hunters or the government. you should know that the states' fish and game people manipulate the environment to ensure that there is a surplus of "game" animals to hunt. they plant things that deer love to eat and get rid of species that interfere with the "game" animals, such as killing off the wild horses and burros out west. I have a house in Pa. and can't believe how many deer have 2 or 3 fawns with them at a time. that shouldn't happen , but it does because there is too much food. there are also non-lethal ways to control animal populations, including contraceptives which can be placed in feed.
White tailed deer are extremely overpopulated in North America, especially in the suburban northeast, and are destroying the environment every day they're allowed to roam without the predators that controlled them in the past. Many are skin and bones much of the year, and die by the millions of starvation during the harsher winters. They come through the forest like locusts, wiping out the vital undergrowth that tens of millions of birds, butterflies, and other animals depend on for food and shelter. Native plants can tolerate an occasional deer population spike, but year after year of heavy foraging causes the extirpation (local extinction) of these plants. To make matters worse, this foraging leaves room for exotic, non-native and inedible invasive plants to grow like crazy. These exotic plants are "ecological deserts", providing very little shelter and almost no food for native species of birds, butterflies, and other wildlife to survive, causing population crashes (and eventually extinctions). For more information, read "Bringing Nature Home" by Douglas W Tallamy, ISBN-13 ending in 9928
"...They come through the forest like locusts..." - My god, you certainly know how to use words. "Locusts" to describe deer population? Deer are overpopulated only because human beings are destroying and using up their habitat. If you give them all of 1 acre of land, just 1 deer would be considered overpopulation.
Cookie, you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Deer populations are exploding in most states because their populations are no longer kept in check by other predators (think: coyotes). Here in Michigan, the deer population is larger than it was a hundred years ago! Do some research before you make another inane and ignorant comment.
so why did Michigan wipe out its wolf and coyote populations?????
Guest,
I think the rationale had to do with livestock and a general fear of the animals. The good news is that wolves are coming back! (well, it's good news to me:) ) A population from Minnesota has found its way to the Upper Peninsula. Also, coyotes are becoming more common throughout the state. I'm not sure how all this will turn out, and definitely state regulations will make a play, but hopefully a healthy balance can be reached again!
Not everyone has the stomach for hunting...it's a pretty big deal to get up the nerve to pull a trigger and take a life. I dont actively hunt now but have many times in my younger years. (Partridge stew is delicious!) I dont believe in trophy hunting and everything you kill should be for food and done as humanely as possible. It's totally cool if you dont believe in hunting, but many of us dont have an issue with it. Like it or not, Hunting is necessary for the conservation of the environment and our way of life. If animal populations are not kept in check, many will starve in the winter...just as an example.
I don't shoot anything that can't shoot back...
THE BAD NEWS ABOUT HUNTING IS THE G&F WHO HAVE OVER REGULATED IT AND NOW ARE NEEDING MONEY IN A BAD ECONOMY SO THEY ARE GETTING VERY PRONE TO WRITTING TICS FOR ANY LITTLE THING AND THE FINES ARE HORRENDOUS.
A Lion is going to come and hunt you for food.
really????? i wonder actually... maybe because we will hunt all their food and interfere with their habitat
Thats only fair, but in the end I will win. They have teeth and claws but I have guns, other wonderful machines and a superior brain. Yay dominant specie!
i wonder how much we will win if all the wild animals will be used for food? hmmmmmm 6 billion people kill 60 billion animals a year..... I wouldn't want to live on this planet. I don't like it now when i know how little heart humans have – 60 billion animals tortured and killed each year....
Please direct me to the credible and source cited publication that states 60 billion animals are tortured each year by humans. I don't see you complaining and fussing when a bear kills and eats fish and other animals when they can survive just on berries and other plants. Or instead of killing an animal quickly like a human, a wolf pack shreds an animal to death. If an animal had a choice it would rather be hunted by a human than another animal. How we kill is down right merciful compared to how other predetors kill.
Is this a bad time to tell you even if you don't eat animals you are using their products right now? How does it feel to contribute to the death of animals to support your life? I feel pretty good and I'm going out for lunch to celebrate, yes, meat is on the menu.
I agree with a lot of what this article has to say. Hunters do OFTEN make good conservationists, but that doesn't mean they have mystical knowledge or that they can manage the healthy populations on their own. Factory animal husbandry, though is despicable is a very efficient way of obtaining meat. I am not 100% sure that we could all just convert to hunters and provide enough food for everyone in a manageable manner. I am not saying I am right, this is just an untested hypothesis I have.
Well spoken. I'm an ecologist, and hunters are actually an important part of maintaining natural populations of many game animals, given that most natural predators that control populations of grazers have been killed off. But you are right in the sense that game populations are a limited, albeit renewable resource that has to be tightly regulated, otherwise it will be gone quickly. Everyone (not even close to everyone) can hunt for their meat.
I meant that everyone CANNOT hunt for their meat, lol.
As I hunter I think this was a very well written statement by the author. I do, however, have to take issue with one point made in her first arguement. McCaulou states, "No land is tilled to feed a wild animal, so additional carbon isn’t released into the atmosphere." Everytime I go hunting I have to drive in my car to my favorite duck blind or backwater slough. This requires the buring of gasoline which adds fossil carbon in the form of CO2 to the atmosphere. A life-cyle assessment would be required to determine which contributes more fossil carbon to the atmosphere on a per kg of meat harvested when all processes in the life-cycle are considered.
I recommend reading the Omnivore's Dilemma or In Defense of Food by Michael Pollan if you are interested in the benefits of eating wild game over mass produced agro-industrial meat.
Do you not drive your car to the grocery store to buy meat?
Yes I do drive my car to the store to buy processed meat which obviously releases CO2 to the atmosphere. However, I only drive less than a mile or two to my urban grocery store. To drive to many of my hunting locations requires drives of 60+ miles. Again, a life-cycle assessment would be required to determine which makes more sense from a kg CO2 emmitted per kg of processes meat. I know I don't always harvest game everytime I go hunting either.
I grew up in a village in Moldova where people were killing their own animals. It was very disturbing, I would run away and plug my ears not to hear the excruciating scream of the animals being killed and my body would become weak. I remember like now seeing my neighbor cutting the head of a chicken that was screaming so loud and then jumping on the ground with no head, full in blood – I thought to myself 'how could she do it'? At that time I was told that a human being can not live without meat and dairy. When I found out that is not true, I went vegan – one of my best choices I’ve made in my life. Killing is never ethical and many philosophers and great minds kept telling us this throughout the ages. btw, killing animals for food kills our compassion, our health and our planet. The killing tendency is ingrained in us since the time we enjoyed sacrificing humans. Most people start killing people by practicing on animals.
I lived for 20 years in my country where people raise their own animals 'ethically' and never killed one for my food... I couldn't even if I wanted to – too gruesome
Veganism may be ok for adults, but it isn't the best choice for kids. Kids, who do not typically eat a lot, need to consume a lot of veggies to maintain suffiicient intake of vitamin D, B12, calcium, iron. Fortunately, nature gave us meat in order to sustain ourselves and our children and save us from having to have to spend unneeded hours planning and finding plant-based substitutes so we can have more time time to spend with them.
this concept was derived from researching only the animal-based diet. only recently more research is done on plant-based diet and both meat-eaters and vegans luck these vitamins. This is because we don't eat organic foods. Babies and children who are vegan are much calmer than others and their IQ is higher. Please research
I wish someone will take the babies who were fed proper food and compare their health state with non-vegans. First of all, all animal protein make our body too acidic and our red cells loose their negative charge clotting to each other – this is the start of hypoxia and all of our organ failure. Two red cells clotted to each other can not pass through capillaries and all our bodily cells suffer from luck of oxygen and nutrients and their Carbon Dioxide and waste can't be removed. This is the beginning of all of our degenerative diseases, physical, mental, neuro......
"Kids, who do not typically eat a lot, need to consume a lot of veggies to maintain suffiicient intake of vitamin D, B12, calcium, iron."
Your ignorance of nutrition amazes me. All the vitamin D you need can be obtained from about 10 minutes per day of exposure to sunlight. Vitamin B12 can not be obtained from plant sources. It can only be obtained through eating animal products OR in supplements where it is derived from microbial sources. You can get calcium and iron in veggies, though you don't have to eat as many as you might think if you eat the right ones. Also, you do not have to "spend unneeded hours planning and finding plant-based substitutes". If you know what you're doing it's actually pretty easy.
vegans have all the vitamins and essential amino acids. For example, it is not how much one has B12, but how much of it can be absorbed or is maintained in the stomack. animal protein requres a lot of acid to be broken down, many of the vitamins are distroyed in this acidic environment. Also, animal protein coagulate our blood and it can not bring the left over B12 to our cells. As a vegan, you might have a little bit of B12 comming from organic foods (from the soil), but it will be properly absorbed and most of it will end up used.
If you are not eating any foods of animal origin and you are not eating products made with 'enriched' or 'fortified' grains and you aren't eating "yeast extract", then you are not getting B12 – period!!!! THERE ARE NO PLANT SOURCES OF B12. There are a couple of B12 'precursors' found in some plants, but humans cannot convert these to the active form of the vitamin. Believe what you want to, spout what you want to, but 'vegan' coupled with 'all natural foods' is a recipe for pernicious anemia.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
you might have made a great deal of research to laugh out so loud.....
you lost any credibility you had with "killing animals for food kills our compassion, our health and our planet."
How is killing plants any different? or harvesting the fruiting bodies of fungus? They prevent the successful individual you harvested from adding it's progeny to the gene pool. These acts are still killing, and if killing is unethical than how can we eat?
When you cut a branch of a plant, more will grow. When you cut the head or a leg, or an arm or anything from an animal, it won't grow back. There is also blood running everywhere..... if you compare an animal to a plant, then what’s the difference between a human and a plant?
Take humans and strip them of their tools. Now imagine trying to hunt animals.
The only reason we are able to hunt animals is because we invented bows and arrows, fishing rods, guns, etc. And even then, compared to the predators who have to have a successful hunt nearly every day in order to just survive, we are absolutely terrible at hunting.
There is no possible way that humanity was intended to hunt animals for food. It's just too unnatural for us to do.
We're actually very good hunters. Our intelligence is part of who we are and allows us to hunt effectively with tools, that's ok. And lets just stop all this talk about what we as a species are suppose to do, we do what we do, there is no "suppose to do" in nature. However, we are built for hunting and eating meat, and as an evolutionary biologist I'm willing to debate this issue if you'd like.
I'd be willing to open the debate regarding agriculture then. We have used our intelligence to irrigate, fertilize and harvest crops on a scale that is incomprehensible to most people. Do you really think humans were meant to cultivate thousands of acres of land for consumption? What about the tools required to be successful in large scale agricultural activities? Your argument holds no weight because we have spent just as much time and energy improving agriculture as we have the harvesting of animal products. To drive through the country and see all the vegetation brown and dead, yet the farmers crop is healthy and green, and call that 'natural'.... that's a twisted view of the natural world.
Because plants have no nervous system, of any sort, and therefore cannot feel, think, and behave similarly to us. This is an important distinction, because when we kill another sentient organism we are basically torturing them and causing them pain. Additionally, most fruits are designed to be eaten, as we spread their seeds and increase their territorial reach, and consequently, their gene pool. We may also do this without killing the plant- simply taking the fruit and leaving the tree, bush, vine, whatever alive.
The things you eat are grown, harvested and made possible by displacing native species that were there first. Its the same thing as killing. On any farm no matter how small and "orgnic," native species die and are displaced. Unless you literally live in a grass hut in the woods and forage on wild twigs, berries, and grasses, your consumption choices (not limited to food) including your ownership of a computer are killing and displacing animals. I guess its easier to do it the nerf ball way where you can benefit from having someone else kill them for you.
Lena, perhaps in Moldova they didn't consider it "necessary" to try to kill farm animals humanely, or at least where YOU were, it was not a consideration. For example, it is possible to hold a chicken in your lap, gently stroking the animal's neck to try to relax it, and use a very sharp knife or razor to cut into the jugular vein and bleed it out. I admit it is VERY up-close and personal, but probably the animal does not suffer very much, if at all.
I don't eat meat because of concerns of saturated fat, but have no objection to those who do. We ALL eat too much meat and our entire ecosystem, including our own bodies, would benefit by reducing meat intake to say no more than once/twice per week. That would also reduce the amount of grain required to raise them, and reduce the amount of slaughter too.
I am NOT anti-hunting. Most hunters I know are very concerned about the animal they kill and ALWAYS use it entirely for food. If not for them, they donate the meat to people who need it much more than they.
Killing animals is not murder. But hunters have a responsibility to protect their environment, respect the animals they kill and try to do it as "humanely" as possible. Same with farmers.
sanjosemike
I wouldn't want someone to 'hold a me in their lap, gently strke me on my neck to try to relax me, and use a very sharp knife or razor to cut into my jugular vein to bleed it out" Of course is better than a more painfull death, but it is still death
Oh, grow up! The "screams" of animals being killed? You can't equate any kind of "scream" from the vast majority of animals to that of something like a human being killed or tortured.
why do we still have to cause screaming and pain when we can be healthy and happy without doing it? it's the 21st century... time to elevate ourselves higher. .... be humane (humane means no killing)
i agree wholeheartedly! there is simply no need for 21st century humans in developed countries to eat meat in order to be healthy. rthat is why I have chosen to live cruelty free. but if you crave meat for your appetites, then kill it yourself!
Humane; characterized by tenderness, compassion, and sympathy for people and animals, especially for the suffering or distressed.
No where in that definition does it say no killing. It says compassion. I dont want that deer to starve to death over the winter or get eaten by wolves, so I am going to shoot it so it has a quick death. That is humane, by definition.
WRONG !
The article is spot-on, and it's nice that the author has now learned what lifelong hunters have always known. Nature is good. Hunters are more interested in conservation than any other group of folks. Talk is free; putting your money down for licenses and fees is what keeps the land open and clean.
Do you want to know what the human body is supposed to eat? Ask your dentist what each of your teeth are for. The human body is made to be able to eat both meat and veg. A balance of both is needed to be as healthy as one can be. Hunting is a better way to get cleaner meat and is more Human then farm raised animals. My Mother is now a vegetarian. Her reason is when she went and did the drive through the country in a RV they had seen the slaughter plants and how the animals were treated. She never eat meat from the store since that trip. Been years now. She will however eat meat from hunting. Animal was not mistreated or tortured.
I live in the hippy town of New Paltz, NY where every thing is protested. Anti this and anti that and the anti every thing. One time these college kids were in front of McDonalds and protesting against meat-eaters and how cruel it is. Mean while I am looking and one had this $300 leather coat on, all of them with there $100 sneakers. the leather belts..... Hypercritical would you not say?
Question for you anti hunters. Do you like your nice smelling shampoo? Animal fat from dead cows makes that. Got your cute little Pocket doggie? Its food from dead cows and chicken parts from the floor at the butcher plants. O here is a big one for you.... how about the war paint you call makeup? Yep once again animal fat. You are the people who hurt the environment the most. Bottled water? How many of those plastic bottles do you use a day?
Hunting is far the best way for fresh cleaner and more human way to get and eat meat. Love the saying.... Farm Fresh LOL.... Think about that for a min.
serious animal rights people only buy "cruelty free" toiletries and cosmetics and man-made clothing and shoes. you should know that many products look like leather but aren't and there are many "fake" fur products out there too. and you have to admit that not all hunters respect the environmet or the animals they shoot at, leaving the wounded to suffer, leaving gaarbage behind, etc. if you are an ethical hunter, I can be your friend, even though I am a vegetarian who supports animal rights.
There is something seriously wrong with anyone who would hunt for sport. Taking pleasure in causing another pain is pathological. I feel sorry for their children and others in their lives who are less powerful- they will be subjected to the violence in a sport hunter's heart in one way or another. The dominionism that fuels hunting is just another way of soothing poor self-esteem.
I am a vegetarian but I agree that if you eat meat you should have to kill it yourself and I agree that animals that are hunted for food have a far better life and death than farm animals. however, the elephant in the room is that there are many hunters who hunt for "sport", seeking out trophies for their walls or floors and killing animals that will never be eaten. they often take the strongest and healthiest animals, leaving the sickly and weak to suffer and breed. there are also hunters who lack skill and leave wounded animals to suffer or fill our waterways with lead shot. and the license fees often go to manipulationg the environment and removing predators so that there is a guaranteed surplus of "game animals" for the hunters. and let's not talk about Hunting "preserves" where people pay to kill tame animals in enclosures from all over the world. if these problems could be adressed, I would have no qualms with hunting at all!
If I had to hunt to eat, I'd be a vegetarian in a nano second. However, I have more respect for those who hunt to feed their family than I do for those who do it for "sport". Seems cowardly to camoflauge yourself up, sit in a tree and wait for the animal come to you. I think these idiots should get down out of their tree and tried to take down the animal with their bare hands. At least it would be a fair fight.
Go eat your veggie burgers linda. Why would a hunter unnecessarily take any animal life? If so its called poaching/wanton waste and is a crime. And doesn't the latest research prove that a diet with a little meat included is in fact healthy? There is nothing more spiritually beautiful and rewarding than being an active participant in the Great Circle of Life. An animal has died so that my family and I can live. If that isn't spiritual then I don't know what is!
If you are a vegetarian and/or don't like to hunt Great! Continue with your trips to the grocery store. Hunters go to the woods. Leave us alone! This is our choice. Fast food to me is a mallard flying past the duck blind on a cool October morning.
Hello Ninja
I was reading the other day when a pitt bull killed a 3 year old kid in someplace in Washington. their parents were crying in grief. They did kill the dog but could never bring the lost life. No true god would ever tell anyone to kill. The word kill is used only to get rid of your own vices and desires. The difference between spirituality and materiality is spirituals indulge in activities for the happiness of their and others souls, and materials use their brains to satisfy their desires and five senses. We Humans are considered to be the best of all because we have the ability to be spiritual and control our brains which in turn controls our senses instead of the other way round. If we forget what we are think what is the difference between us and that pit bull which slaughtered the harmless child. God did not create life to destroy other life...He created it to love......Jesus said that love your neighbor....he also said love your enemy......How can he tell anyone to kill anything who tells us to love even our enemies....Ask your heart and Jesus is inside you who will answer all your questions....Do not use relegious excuses to do the wrong....because no one else will pay for your sins....Jesus is our saviour but we still will have to pay for our sins....He will guide us but we still have to walk....
I agree with you friend!.....only a couple months till duck season, thanks for getting me in the mood. haha.
A quick kill for the meat is the objective, not a fight or battle with the animal. You would prefer a more "hand to hand" hunt where there would be a slower death and wounds? Think it through.
MOST people eat meat-thus a kill is going to happen period. Some of us prefer that our meat not be farm raised in pens with antibiotics and added hormones. This article was a nice surprise.
Hey JEM,
I've hunted my entire life and never met a hunter that only hunted for sport. We all eat what we kill. Yes, we enjoy the act of hunting, it's biological and I won't appologize for it, but we do what we do ethically (and as this author points out, we feel it's more ethical than those that simply buy their meat at the store with little to no respect for the animal that died to provide it). This idea that there's guys out there simply killing animals for fun and leaving them to waste is simply incorrect. I've never met a hunter that had this mind set. Every single hunter I've ever met wants a clean kill, to harvest the meat, and be part of nature.
21k – I'm sure there are hunters that drink before hunting, but I've never met one. There are people that drink before driving too. That doesn't mean all drivers are evil. I really wish people would stop trying to generalize hunters as some evil group of rednecks that just like to kill. As the article points out, we're actually pretty ethical about the way we go about things and how we view nature.
Great article. Welcome to the hunt club.