 Parents have many talks with their kids as they grow up. There's the "birds and the bees" talk and the "sharing is caring" talk, or even the "don't be a bully" talk. Now, author Ruby Roth wants parents to have the "If it's too scary to talk about while we're eating, it's too scary to eat" discussion with their children. Roth is talking about veganism. Like vegetarians, vegans don't eat meat, but they take that philosophy a few steps further. Vegans won't consume or use any products that contain any part of an animal. For example, they don't eat eggs or dairy and won't wear leather. Her new children's book, "Vegan is Love," is causing quite a stir, with some critics saying she's scaring children into a lifestyle choice that young kids aren't equipped to make. The 40 page book, officially geared towards 7-year-olds, features bright illustrations by Roth herself. Some of the illustrations are graphic. One depicts mice and bunnies and dogs and cats in a lab. They have oozing sores on their bodies and appear to be in a great deal of pain and suffering. Another is of a family of polar bears huddled on a tiny ice sheet. In the book, Roth also advocates that children not go to zoos, aquariums or the circus: a potentially difficult concept for a young child to understand. Roth herself is stepmother to a 7-year-old vegan and knew there would be some backlash. "These are all things every vegan hears on a daily basis. Of course there are going to be questions about misinformation," she says. Roth became a vegan after being challenged to do so, and the lifestyle stuck. "I lost weight, had more energy, and never went back." Asked what she missed the most about her non-vegan lifestyle, "Shoes!" she says. "I cannot wait for more mainstream shoe lines to get a clue." She has written two children's books on the subject, the first one is called "That's Why We Don't Eat Animals". On the seemingly graphic nature of some of the illustrations she says, "I don't think that there's anything in my book that a kid wouldn't see walking in a supermarket or watching TV. I didn't exaggerate anything. I wanted kids to recognize what they see in the book." One of the book's themes is to "teach kids we don't have to fear anything that we have the power to change." Roth also wants the public to look into what she calls the truth behind the animal and agricultural industries in America. She claims, "If the American public knew about the abuse, the outrage would be directed at the industry and not this children's book." Asked how she'd react if her daughter decided to leave veganism, Roth says "I will never try to control what she eats, in the end it's up to her. The best we can do is make sure our kids have the information [they need] to make choices. My hope was to reach people who raise kids to love deeply." Previously - Clarified: Vegans, pescetarians, raw foodists and other dietary tribes |
What's interesting to me while going through these comments is how many people are using evolution, our teeth, "nature", our digestive systems etc to justify eating meat. What is so often overlooked is that there is no longer anything "natural" about eating meat, it is filled with everything from formaldehyde to dyes, antibiotics, sex hormones, and more. We need to stop talking about where we "came from" since this argument is no longer valid. It's time to be progressive and start changing the way we eat and the way we treat other sentient beings.
There is nothing wrong with raising vegan children, I know several vegan moms and children who are thriving on vegan diets. Like any diet, you must be getting adequate nutrition. It is interesting how many people are against "vegan parenting" when they most likely feed their children McNuggets – which in my opinion is blatant child abuse.
Are kids too young to understand meat-eating?
While I am not a Vegan, nor even Vegetarian, I do think that there is a responsibility on the consumer and the producer of meat to ensure that the quality of life for an animal is not so as to bring undue suffering. However, before anyone goes about spouting that the Industry should "spare no expense" or "make the life of the animal foremost in thought and consideration" you have to realize the economic considerations. Capitalism holds sway in America. everyone wants their "fair share" and they always want to make more money. Convincing an industrial giant to basically throw money down the toilet (in their eyes) is like convincing a lion to eat grass. Good luck and hope you don't miss the hand you are trying to feed it with.
It needs to be a lucrative investment, otherwise stock holders will not support healthier and happier livestock. The worst thing I see here is, that taking that into consideration is the last thing Activists do. Stop presenting problems that we all know exist and present solutions. How can you improve the living conditions, diet and death of a livestock to be consumed for the benefit of the food chain without destroying the profit margin of those that supply that service? Figure that out, and you deserve a Nobel Prize.
We vote with our dollars and by publicizing what companies are up to, OmniFoody. For example, companies, like Burger King or MacDonalds, don't want the taint of animal cruelty associated with them. Burger King will no longer buy eggs from producers that use battery cages ... so either we use legislation to protect animals or we push companies - by the use of public campaigns - into making the right choices.
Scarying kids into a decision???? Um what do millions of Americans do to them about religion. This actually saves lives of animals,but all religion does is controll and scare kids to think they will be on fire when they die.
So true!
I happen to enjoy eating vegan food cooked at "Everlasting Life" in Capitol Heights, MD. It is cheaper for me to eat at the restaurant and getting a balanced meal. Since eating vegan, my cholesterol went from 213 to 193, my sugar 112 to 93 within 1 month. Before we can teach our children, we must educate the parent first (my opinion). I don't recall my grandmother abusing any animal on the farm. I stopped drinking milk when it changed colors!! A fresh chicken is white not tinted tan. Meet is injected with dye...nope eating differently now.
The outrage that this book has prompted is amazing. If this author is a vegan and it works for her, that's great. If she wants her kids to be vegan and they're healthy, that's great too. If you disagree with the book, there's nothing wrong with that. You don't have to read it and you don't have to follow this particular lifestyle. Ruby Roth isn't going to chase you into your house and make you either read the book or eat the way she does. But if you're interested in being vegan or already practicing that way of eating, this is a potential resource.
No, neither of those is the case. Otherwise, there wouldn't have been much point in my mentioning it, would there? Seek help, please. Your vile attitude is likely to get in the way of your "healthy long life."
Please disregard. This was meant to be a response to a comment.
lele23, I was hoping you didn't mean me, LOL! Replies end up in weird places; it's happened to me.
The idea of exposing your children to a vegan lifestyle at a young age can stir up so controversy. Ruby Roth, the author of the book Vegan is Love, is targeting a young audience to promote a vegan lifestyle. However, I do not believe children at this age can fully comprehend veganism. Furthermore, I don’t think Roth is representing animal agriculture fairly. As a child, you are very trusting and naïve, and can be easily be persuaded to believe whatever you are told. I think Roth is taking a wrong step by depicting suffering animals in a lab and other graphic pictures. This can absolutely not be considered as a representative picture of the animal industry. Though there are some problems with certain plants in animal production systems, there are numerous animal welfare regulations in place and strides are being made everyday to advocate humane practices in slaughter houses. Roth is presenting a skewed image to children, who will be quick to believe whatever they see and here, which is not fair to the animal industry, farmers, and omnivores around the world. There is much more to veganism and the animal agriculture industry that what this book portrays, which is why it may be more suitable to talk to children about veganism at an older age. Children who are 7 years old are not likely to understand all the ethical dilemmas presented in the book. I don’t feel that parents have a moral obligation to expose their children to a vegan lifestyle. However, I do feel it is acceptable to do so, if they choose. Rather than pushing veganism and saying that all animal agriculture is bad, exposure should come in the form of simply telling your children what being a vegan means and why some people chose to follow this lifestyle. Once again, the animal agriculture industry is being wrongly ridiculed by a somewhat ignorant mind. This is not to say that a vegan lifestyle is bad. It can be a wonderful life choice for some people, but it’s not for everyone and it shouldn’t have to be.
Christie,
Thanks for your thoughtful post. However, I have to disagree about your information about the farm industry. All CAFO farms offer the same conditions. (I'm not talking about small farms here.) Here are some sources for you:
http://www.aspca.org/factoryfarming
http://www.farmsanctuary.org/issues/factoryfarming/
http://www.sustainabletable.org/issues/factoryfarming
http://www.idausa.org/facts/factoryfarmfacts.htm
http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/campaigns/factory_farming
http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/subjects/f/factory_farming/index.html
factoryfarmingconference.org
Re teaching children her values, I don't see how Roth is doing any different from a parent, say, raising a child in a religious context. We raise our children with our own values to the best of our abilities. Are we to not raise children with our values until they're, let's say, 14, and can question what we're telling them?
Again, I appreciate your post, but do disagree with you on some points.
Christie, I think your phrase "animal production systems" says it all. We're not making progress in the humane treatment of animals in those "production systems" (interesting that you use a phrase used in the meat industry) - the progress is slow and an uphill battle at best. You know there's an issue when CAFO operations are mightily trying to bar video-capture from their plants. We teach children to be kind - why shouldn't they learn the truth about this industry?
This is not an attack or accusation, but you do exemplify how ignorant the general public really is about the conditions of factory farms. It is not our fault however. The ethical burden at the moment is on the corporations, and we all know how that goes. They have done a very good job of hiding from us what we know will weigh on our conscience and drive us away from eating their "products".
But let us be clear that animals are not products. They are conscious living things that deserve to be treated with respect of the ultimate sacrifice: giving their lives so that others can live. We can consume their flesh because it is the circle of life, just as an omnivorious bear has no burden to decide whether it is right to kill for food or eat plants instead. The only ethical concern is the life lived before death and how they pass on to that death. Animals live by this simple code, however instinctual it is. We have the burden of choice.
I am not a vegan and never will be, but there absolutely needs to be something done about the atrocious conditions of these farms. We spare no expense in saving horses stuck in the mud or cats caught up in trees. Food companies must spare no expense in ensuring quality of life and humane slaughter.
Well said, Food Zealot. I don't think we need to eat meat (re the circle of life argument), but I applaud your acknowledgment that the burden is on us to ensure that these animals don't suffer so we can eat. All of this is made worse, considering that we over-consume meat. To me, that makes animals' pain and sacrifice - in the CAFO setting - all the more sad. I understand people not wanting to become vegans or vegetarians, but perhaps we can all eat a little less meat, and, also, support efforts to make the lives of these animals better.
I agree with your that no one needs to eat meat, just like no one needs to "bear arms" but it is a right, so to speak, and no one should be judged because of it and vice versa. The bottomline is that animals are being used and mistreated and that needs to stop.
Ironic and hypocritical how we are so keen on stopping atrocities and genocide around the world when probably the greatest atrocity is on our plates every day. Animals are always more innocent than people.
Food Zealot, yes, so true ... lots of bad things happening to what appears on our plates. I agree that ethically it's the responsibility of the corporations who use these animals in (shudder) "food production," but as long as these companies are reaping profits, they won't change. It seems to be up to animal advocates to push them in the right direction or help create animal protection legislation. I don't it's realistic to expect people to stop eating meat, so change has to come from the industry side. Although the idea of lab-grown meat is interesting and might be the answer, LOL.
I think the problem for veganism, for me anyway, is the concept of BALANCE. Another word would be moderation. A vegan diet does not seem balanced to me - it seems extreme, arbitrarily so. I can understand taking issue with industrial farms and their sometimes cruel techniques, but I don't understand never eating meat or particularly animal products like milk and eggs. It seems to me that the key to most things is balance - don't eat too much meat; don't eat too many carbohydrates; don't eat too much salt, fat, sugar, etc. If you eat a broad cross section of food, you'll be fine, and if you further maintain your health with adequate exercise, you will have little to worry about from many of the diseases or disorders plaguing unhealthy people these days. We know that too much exercise is bad for you by wearing down your body. We know that too much meat is bad for you with cholesterol, among other things. Too much sleep. Too much water can actually kill you (admittedly, that's hard to do). Live life in balance, and there are fewer things to worry about - eating shouldn't be so difficult!
Nobody's making it difficult andrewr770, but if you consciously ignore much of what Ruby Roth is pointing out in her book and cite moderation as the reason for doing so, you are living in blissful ignorance. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that on a personal level – blissful ignorance can be a great thing to minimize stress and live healthfully – but realize not every person is wired that way.
Some of us see the way animals are treated and realize that "balance" isn't the answer to righting the wrongs these animals face. To take it a step further, I would argue that eating Vegan is not nearly as extreme as it's perceived. Much of the extreme persona comes from animal rights organizations like PETA and ALF (Animal Liberation Front). I support both of those organizations, but I am also in no way a Vegan extremist and the majority of the Vegans fall somewhere in the middle. My life is very balanced and I feel a sense of clarity and peace with the Earth and other living things by choosing not to eat animals. It's hard to knock it, until you try it.
jnasty, just in response to your post ... I appreciate what PETA does. Yes, they're extreme, but they certainly have educated people about the treatment of animals in factory farming situations and other areas. I also like the work of Wayne Pacelle and the HSUS. The Bond is an amazing book.
the only vegan I know is a fellow trainer at my boxing/mma gym. he trains hard and follows a straight vegan diet. For some reason he cant last more than a handful of rounds. Far less than others in our training group. I dont know if its the diet or what. I know he looks unhealthy and spent after just 30 minutes to an hour of hard training. With that said I stick to my chicken and veggie diet.
Apparently this person needs to take a look at their diet. I trained 2/3 times a day, 6 days a week... sparred, thai pads and conditioning for a Muay Thai fight and stuck a vegan/raw diet. I'm currently training for a half marathon and have plenty of energy. This person apprently isn't eating a balanced diet. Sticking to a plant based diet actually helps you revover faster. There are many vegan bodybuilders and triathletes out there. Check out Mac Danzig, Pro MMA fighter who is vegan.
You have watched animal planet, right? Those cute cuddly animals actually eat each other, alive... we are designed to do the same. Otherwise we'd have a jaw full of molars, and no canines for tearing flesh. I can respect vegetarians who do it for health benefits, but to those who argue it as a moral obligation... your holier than thou attitude just makes the rest of us want to punch you and the rhetoric is flawed.
What a friendly post, Geoff, LOL. No, we as humans aren't like animals. We don't eat each other live. We don't even eat animals live. Our teeth do not resemble the magnificent canines of carnivores or even omnivorous animals. Not sure I understand your hostility for a vegan who's writing a book about her lifestyle. You don't have to read it, LOL.
Human teeth are omnivorous. Believe it or not carnivores tend to have molars too. Size of canines has nothing to do with being a carnivore, gorillas have huge canines and are vegetarians.
You are forgetting our digestive system is not designed to digest meat and our bodies are not designed to take all the toxins that meat has. Meat is not for humans.
The theory is that gorillas use their large canines for crushing vegetable stalks, or perhaps for threat display. But if their canines are un-used for meat-eating, why can't ours be, by the same token? Our canines nowhere near compare to the size of carnivore canines or even other omnivores. (It does seem like gorillas are the exception.) I think we can eat meat, but don't have to; our dentition and the way our jaws work would indicate so.
Has anyone noticed something wrong with this link? I clicked to see the article on bankruptcy and student loans and get this article on vegetarians. Can you fix this?
Bait and switch. Happened to me, too.
Looks like the book served its purpose– to get you thinking about it, whether you agree or not. She did a beautiful job on the artwork.
I am not a vegan, but am a vegetarian. Still, my understanding about breastfeeding is that it is OK to drink your own mother's milk because that is what nature intended it to. Other animals (cows, goats etc.) produce milk for their children and, therefore, vegans do not drink their milk. Strictly vegetarian (not vegan) Hindus often refer to cow as 'mother cow' because they respect the animal for providing milk that typically only a mother can provide.
If you feed a child vegan, his meat will become very gamey. When you finally serve junior as the main course, your guests will be very disappointed.
Are you a sick-headed? Your comment is out-of-bound.
Ahhh, I see that humorectomy was a rousing success.
I have been vegan for about 4 years. I'm also a biology major and while taking zoology, we often talked about how cretain reptiles ate other reptiles, and certain molluscs ate other molluscs. I started to view those animals that ate other animals that were in the same phylum as themselves as cannibals, even though technically they aren't. Then I realized by that logic, if I ate cow or pig, I would have to consider myself a cannibal as well. That is my new favorite reason to explain to people why I am vegan. Just thought I would share.
Here is something else for you to think about: "Why do you have those cutting teeth in the front of your mouth?" It really is not all that complex . . .
You meant those tiny canines that are so pathetic compared to the canines of true meat-eaters? Or the little incisors, tiny compared to those of other omnivores? We cook our meat to be able to chew it up properly. Not saying you shouldn't eat meat, but arguing for meat-eating per our tooth or even jaw structure isn't a great argument, LOL.
In terms of evolutionary biology, it's a great argument. We evolved as omnivores, and our teeth and digenstive system are adapted to a mixed diet. If we had evolved to comsume a strictly vegetarian diet, out teeth and guts would be very different.
This is in response to the comment about evolutionary theory. Our digestive systems evolved to tolerate meat as an additonal protein source, but not thrive on it. Why can people live healthy on no meat, but you'd be dead in a few years if you tried the opposite? Other species are more adapted to eating meat and more of it than we are, even other omnivores like brown bears which cannot suffer from heart disease. Our ancestors benefited from being able to digest a small amount of meat, but no ape has ever evolved that ate only meat.
I bet you were at the top of your class.
can·ni·bal
[kan-uh-buhl] Show IPA
noun
1.
a person who eats human flesh, especially for magical or religious purposes, as among certain tribal peoples.
2.
any animal that eats its own kind.
Where are our eyes located? In the front of our head so we can triangulate and track prey. That means we are predators. If we has eyes located on the sides of our head, like cattle, we would be prey. Our larger sized brains require extra calories, like that obtained by cooking and eating meat. It is unnatural for humans to eat just fruits, vegetables, nuts, and berries.
Nick
May be your "large size" brain requires meat, but we are talking quality of brain not quantity. In your case it is clear that you have a large quantity of brain with absolutely no logic or analytical abilities, hence no quality. You should do yourself a favor and read up on the benefits of being a vegetarian/ vegan before you open your mouth and spew stupid comments
Our eyes have nowhere near the capability of the eyes of the large predators. What about our ability to run down prey? Oops, we can't. How about our ability to sniff out prey? Oops, we can't. How about our ability to bring down a deer with our bare hands? We can't.
The human brain needs amino acids for development - these amino acids are found in the plant/legume foods.
So humans don't have the ability to hunt down prey animals despite the fact that we've been doing it throughout our history, huh?
Take one dumb argument for why humans need meat and counter with a worse argument on why they don't.
We're omnivores. With large brains (despite the contradictive evidence provided in these Forum posts). We're able to eat what's available instead of being dependant on a more limited source of nutrition. Vegan, Vegetarian, Omnivore, or whatever your diet, more power to you.
You really don't know much about anthropology, either. Humans are surpassed only by wolves when it comes to running down prey over long distances. Study the Dobe !Kung of the Kalihari sometime, or Australian Aborigine hunting techniques.
And our eyes are excellent for daytime hunting in a wide variety of ecosystems.
The Aborigines hunt with spears, as I would imagine the same for the tribe you mentioned. I don't think that makes an argument that humans are meant to eat meat. Also, re your other argument that our teeth make us omnivores and we should therefore eat meat, our teeth are still pathetic compared to those of omnivores like bears, for example. Our teeth are more flat and "grind-dy," like those of herbivores'.
I'm not saying we can't eat meat, but I am saying that some folks seem to be able to perfectly function without it.
Thanks for the lesson in anthropology, though.
I think we're intentionally designed that way. As destructive as us humans are, we would have made every land mammal extinct by now if we were the most agile and dangerous along with being the most intelligent. As humans we are at the top of the food chain even though there are so many out there that could kick our @$$es.
This is where the "God" talk would start. Oh, noez!!!!11!!1
Just because one trait evolved one way for one species doesn't mean that's what happened for another. We share a common ancestor with other predator mammals so the eyes moved to the front before that. Depth perception remained as one of our traits not because we had to develop it in order to hunt meat. It stuck because we needed it to go along with our ability to manipulate objects with our hands. All primates have the same eyes positioned on their face.
Remember that just because you have it doesnt mean you need it evolutionarily speaking. As long as it does not affect your ability to pass your genes to the next generation, traits don't just disappear.
Why does it take me to this article when I click on "Bankruptcy as student debt option?" from the home page??? It's been like that for at least a day. Get it together CNN!
Vegan away my hungry friends. Come to my house for a meal and I can (and will) accommodate a vegetarian lifestyle. Easy enough to do. Vegan? You are on your own. Far too many 'rules' and it just sucks the fun out of cooking, never mind the expense – must be agave nectar and not good ole home grown honey. Oh the horror – bees.
Plants have feelings too, that's why I am on a strict rock and mineral diet.
How dare you harm mother earth? I myself am on the sunlight diet. I only consume sunlight, thus I can be holier than thou to everyone!
Vegetarianism and veganism are affectations of class and status, spiritual purity. I believe the trend started among the Aryan Brahmin rulers in India? Vegetarianism requires a slave class of serfs to provide the necessary nutritional spectrum, eschewing traditional folk practices for methods of power gathering.
In case you were wondering why so many vegans cultivate their condescending attitude, here ya go.
A more comprehensive view of meat consumption would show that across the world's societies and throughout history, meat consumption has generally been much higher among the ruling elite than among the workers. Hence the prevalence of "diseases of affluence" such as coronary heart disease among the upper classes of ancient Egypt.http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/nov/17/heart-disease-ancient-egyptians
Actually, that was because of grain, both then and now.
Cereals and excessive carbohydrates in the diet lead to heart disease. Not meat. Otherwise, the neanderthals would've wiped out and we wouldn't be here.
Taysha, looks like you got your "c" words mixed up. Ever heard of cholesterol?
http://www.cdc.gov/heartdisease/facts.htm
#1 risk factor listed: High cholesterol, not carbs
http://www.cdc.gov/dhdsp/data_statistics/fact_sheets/fs_cholesterol.htm
To the rest of you, enjoy your bacon & eggs breakfast. ;)
Nope. All classes of Egyptian society ate plenty of grain. The upper class was the only one who consumed large quantities of meat.
@Cholesterol
Don't depend on .gov sites for scientific information. They base their 'findings' on consensus, not scientific method....which leads them to 'find' their desired results.
"Oh, you don't agree with our opinion...then you don't count. Look now we have 98% agreement, meaning we must be right about it, and everyone who thinks differently is just crazy."
Give it 10-30 more years and they'll be telling you that water is killing you, cholestorol is good, and multi-vitamins are causing cancer....but check out this new pill the pharmacies can sell you to cure your baldness and depression.
Little Jeffy, I don't think that was the sole point of Chol's post, but thanks for playing.
Actually, no, I didn't Cholesterol
There is no scientific article directly relating cholesterol to disease. Studies done for it have actually given results so confusing they have been swept under the rug. Triglycerides, yes. Those are terrible. And if you knew your biochemistry you would know that triglycerides are created by excess glucose in blood (which comes from the breakdown of carbs, not fat), NOT by the fat ingested. As a matter of fact, there have been studies that indicate that a diet low in cholesterol can indeed cause the body to overreact and produce more of it.
And if you don't believe me, ask any diabetic whose insulin needed readjusted. 1 month of high blood sugar and your cholesterol will shoot up like it's no one's business.
Are you kidding? Eating meat used to be a sign of of wealth, at least in our culture. People tried to be "portly," so they looked like they could afford meat.
I chain my kids up in the basement and toss them meat scraps that the dog couldn't finish. No veggies for them at all.
Very Mature!! – Not!!!!
You make me a sad. Wery, wery a sad.
It is amazing how much people care about things that do not affect them in the slightest. There are tremendous helath benefits to eating a vegan diet and for some people there are political and religious beliefs that go along with that. If that isn't for you then keep eating meet and dairy. But before you spout off about what you think is or isn't healthy, try doing a little research on the links of animal protein to cancer and heart disease. And for you vegans out there, meat isn't murder and you will never change what is happening with our food industry. Stop worrying about everyone else, no one cares what you think.
I am a vegan and it is solely for the health benefits. Plant strong diets help stave off diabetis, alzheamers, and heart disease. Not to mention Imy bmi decreased and I have had substantial gains in the weight room. Is it offensive that others eat meat? NO. Is it offensive to meat eaters that I don't? Why the heck would it be.
So in short, to all of you elitist vegan and meat eaters alike, get over yourselves.
Our food choices actually do affect everyone. Factory farms take a toll on the environment and also increase the propogation of contamination which leads to outbreaks of illnesses. Processed foods contribute to healthcare costs soaring which affect insurance rates. We can disagree as to what is moral with regard to food choices as far as religion and animal rights, but last time I checked the environment and public health pretty are universal problems. Any view that does not acknowledge this fact, whether it be vegan or otherwise, is ignorant.
It is not ignorant at all. What is ignorant is for you to think that a small population of the United States is going to change the way that food is processed for the masses. It is a trillion dollar, globalized industry that you are helpless to chage. It is great o support your local farmers markets and do your part, I think that anyone who isn't a complete jerk off would commed that. But the occupiers have a better chance at the White House than vegans do stopping mass production of animal based foods.
Re-read my post, please. Never said anything about affecting change. I said our food choices affect more than what goes in your mouth at a given meal. I won't belabor that point because I'm clearly not writing to anyone of significant intelligence. You only further exemplify your ignorance and lack of intelligence when you incorrectly infer that I am a vegan or some sort of food evangelist. I simply state a fact, one that cannot be denied, unless you are implying food comes from the ether. Until you can come up with a substantive and reasonable response, I bid you adieu.
Food Zealot, re your second post to W, you do talk about affecting change: "And for you vegans out there, meat isn't murder and you will never change what is happening with our food industry." I liked some of what you posted, but you lost me when you became rude and accusatory. Try courteous discourse ... others may actually listen to you.
Not sure you read the posts right. My only point is that food choices "affect everyone". Whether people attempt to "affect change" for the better is beside my point. I accused W of being ignorant because his post implied that food production is somehow disconnected from the world in which and for which it exists, which I in turn provide examples for why that is not the case.
"Affecting everyone" and "affecting change" are two different concepts, the nuances of which seem to elude the both of you and I hope not more. My only apology here is that the people who post comments aren't more intelligent. Americans bash Mexicans for not learning the language when many Americans don't seem to have learned their own language. Stay in school, people. Eat meat or not, but please read a book. Geez.
@Food Zealot, I did totally misread your post (apologies). But, really, it was an honest mistake and accusing me of not being able to read, etc. was really not necessary. There are books on courtesy at your local library - maybe you can get a library card and check some out?
It's ok. Apology accepted, and I apologize in return. I'm actually cordial and polite in-person, but I acknowledge the fact that people lose their manners online because there is no face-to-face interaction. Sometimes it's nice to let off some steam, so i apologize if it was at anyone's expense (which i highly doubt, since you don't know me and i don't know you). AMERICA!
Thanks, Food Zealot. I too, as you saw, get kind of cranky when posting ... and I shouldn't either. There is something about it not being face to face that brings out the worst in people, but that shouldn't be my excuse, LOL. I've resolved to do better. Thanks for your nice words ... back atcha :). Have a good day.
I see the biggest potential issue ith forcing children into vegan or vegetarian diets is using soyreplacements. The Estrogens in even a moderately high soy diet can be as much as taking birth control pills which can wreak havoc on developing children's hormones. Google: Soy Phytoestrogens
Not as big an issue as people make it out to be. Check the research out:
http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2011/06/03/how-much-is-too-much-phytoestrogen/?hpt=hp_bn6
I tried being vegan for 6 months after I saw a news report on Bill Clinton eating vegan after his heart trouble and how much weight he'd lost. I like to lift weights, and I found out I just couldn't keep the vegan diet up. I saw my strength gains in the weight room start to reverse, and I wasn't losing any weight, either. I was just getting weaker and fatter. I was eating a pretty high protein, low fat vegan diet, too, with plenty of beans, legumes, tofu and tempeh, and lots of fresh vegetables. Just didn't work for me. I still eat low fat and not much red meat or dairy fat, and I definitely eat more beans and vegewtables now than I did before, but for my lifestyle and metabolism, vegan didn't work.
You were doing something wrong. You probably were not getting enough calories. Nevertheless, you WERE doing something wrong.
There are vegan athletes and body builders (Google it). They routinely win or place well against meat eaters. It's because they get all the same stuff meat eaters get, just in plant form.
There is nothing special about meat protein. Protein is composed of amino acids, and all essential amino acids available in meat are available from plants.
This is extra nice because plants don't end up clogging arteries, and producing heart attacks, strokes, etc.
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-04-02/health/india.heart.disease_1_mutation-heart-disease-heart-attacks?_s=PM:HEALTH
It's the genes MAN!! What's in your DNA matters more then what's in your stomach. Some people thrive on a vegan diet, others will starve. Why? CAUSE THEIR DIFFERENT PEOPLE!
If Tony Gonzales (single best tight end in the history of the NFL) doesn't have any issues with dominating the NFL as a vegan I am sure that your hour a day gym time was probably being hidnered by you not understanding what and how much to eat. Any time you drastically change your diet you should be speaking to a nutritionist to plan out and understand how the diet will affect you and to make sure you are getting enough nutrients.
Or we as a society could possibly come to terms with the differences at a genetic level of all typical humans.
Just because Case A had amazing positive results with a given dietary change doesn't mean that Case B is the same as Case A.
Different bodies. Different gene codes. Very likely other differences as well so.....Same expectations??
When exactly did we start teaching that science means "finding the popular opinion or anecdotal evidence."
Many people in this world are vegan not out of choice, but necessity, and are malnourished. It is possible to be fully nourished as a vegan adult, however it is rather ridiculous to consider dairy not part of a mammalian infant/child's diet. There are some that are allergic to cow milk, but then can try goat or have to use almond/soy substitute. If one breast feeds a child for at least 2 years, then perhaps it would be okay to be vegan. It is important to note that in primative societies human infants/children were/are breastfed partially at least for up to 6 years-this could still be done with pumping and putting it in a cup perhaps? Anyways, it is environmentally conscious to limit meat intake as an adult (fully grown) but very difficult to maintain proper fat/protein diet needed for brain and bone growth for a vegan child. A vegetarian, less restricted diet (including eggs, dairy) seems more practical and more likely to fulfill the necessary nutritional considerations.
Been a vegetarian all my life, however, veganism is hard! I'm from India, and we get most of our protein from legumes, cereals and...dairy! Also, I think only Indian cuisine is really geared up to provide a well-balanced, tasty vegetarian alternative. It relies heavily on spices to make vegetables edible and legume-based soups and stews to provide enough protein. In every other cuisine that I am aware of, vegetarianism is almost an after thought, except Chinese and Korean Buddhist cuisine, that is heavily soy and gluten-based.
If you raise your child vegan, does this mean the child never breast feeds? That is an animal byproduct after all. I do not see a problem in raising a child vegetarian or pescaterian. However, vegan is just a step too far. The diet eliminates far too many essential amino acids and proteins that the body needs for development. Furthermore, you are brainwashing the child into a train of thought that only a small sector of society buys into. When he or she grows up, perhaps they may want to alter their lifestyle. Therefore, filling their head with propaganda at a young age is flat out morally incorrect!
Vegans breast-feed, Seriously. It's a product of their own bodies, and thus morally okay. That's funny that you talk about parents indoctrinating their kids. We all indoctrinate our kids in our own beliefs, LOL. I think it's called parenting. We hope that as older parents, if they choose differently from us, we have the maturity to let them go. My understanding is that vegans get amino acids from plants and legumes. Avocados, for example, offer healthy fat. I think they can do it; they just need to know what they're doing. I'm also, and I'm not saying this is you, stunned by how badly people feed their kids - french fries, fast food, candy - then are so upset about vegans trying to feed their kids in a healthy fashion. I think feeding kids fast food and allowing them to drink soda is more abusive, then having them on a well-balanced vegan diet. Kids on fast food ... they don't have a chance.
Amazing, It sounds as if you assume that anyone who isn't vegan or vegetarian must be feeding their kids fast food. Actually, there are many parents who are against fast food, processed foods and unhealthy choices. Some parents even work hard to provide grass fed meat and dairy to their families. They are more concerned with the problems associated with giving their children vitamins and supplements because these substances have very little, if any, regulation. There is evidence provided daily that these substances may cause more harm than good. Perhaps we could all direct our anger at these companies and maybe at the food industry for providing foods with too much sugar and salt.
You're right. Not all meat-eating parents feed their kids fast food. I should have narrowed it down more ... the parents who DO feed their kids fast food and then get upset about vegans. That's what I meant, sorry.
I agree - we should all be upset with the food industry. Ultimately, it's our choice what we eat, but the choices have certainly gotten narrower. Everything is overly processed, and there's so much marketing aimed at wooing children into eating these items. If you eat in a healthy fashion, it's like swimming upstream.
Definition from Merriam Webster:
Vegan: a strict vegetarian who consumes no animal food or dairy products
If your child breast feeds, that makes them inherently not a Vegan. By definition.
Thus, saying that breast-feeding is healthier than the alternatives (as it usually is) inescapably admits that at least for some humans, for some of their life, eating animal products is healthier than not eating them.
That isn't to say that being a Vegan is bad. That isn't to say it can't be healthy for an adult. That isn't a slam. But gosh darn it, folks, don't overgeneralize. Humans, as mammals are evolved to consume milk at least as infants. Humans, as omnivores, are evolved to eat meat, at least to some extent. Does that mean that we can bypass that evolution? Sure. Does it mean it is wise? Maybe, maybe not. But it certainly is not as simple and straightforward as militant vegans make it out to be.
A good friend of mine was vegan. She kept getting sick. Her doctor (Who was sympathetic to the vegan cause) told her point blank she needed to add meat, or fish, or something. She had already tried supplement after supplement. She finally added fish. She stopped having the issues. At least some humans, at least some of the time, require animal products to be healthy. QED
If one is vegan for ethical reasons, then the breast feeding is irrelevant to being vegan.
Breastfeeding is healthier than not breastfeeding for reasons having to do with chemicals (hormones, perhaps) in the breast milk, not due to it containing animals protein or cholesterol or saturated fat. And breastfeeding is better but not essential. There are whole generations who did fine growing on baby formula.
If your friend kept getting sick on a vegan diet, then she was doing it wrong. I'm tired of hearing this story, which I bet is actually an urban legend. I know many people who have raised their children as vegans from conception onward, and their children are perfectly healthy and happy.
Everything that is essential for the human diet can be found in plants, except B-12. But B-12 is not animal-based. It's a by-product of bacteria. It just happens to be made easily in many animals' intestines.
There are vegan athletes and body builders. They routinely win or place well against meat eaters. It's because they get all the same stuff meat eaters get, just in plant form. This is extra nice because they therefore don't end up with clogged arteries, heart attacks, strokes, etc.
I doubt that the (probably nonvegan and nonlactating) editors at Merriam Webster even thought about breastfeeding when they wrote their simplistic definition. Come on now, if you wanted to establish an understanding of the faith and practice of, say, the Amish, would you be better off reading about it in the World Book Encyclopedia or interviewing the actual Amish, all of whom are telling you that the World Book got something wrong? Why are you and others so set on convincing vegans that they shouldn't breastfeed, for heaven's sake?
I'm neither pro nor con Veganism, because as you say, we parents do little else but "indoctrinate" our children; they are saddled with our gods, language and culture, whether they like it or not, and that's just the beginning. I have a brother in law who raised 3 outstanding boys according to his vegetarianism; alas, all of them turned to meat the moment they turned 18 and went to college and many years after, are still eating meat. They also kinda resent their dad (which is very sad-he wanted the best for them, that's all) for what they perceive as a forced eating habit on them, and make it a point to eat meat in his presence. My husband, on the other hand, became a vegetarian at 12 on his accord and never looked back. He's healthy as a horse and resents nobody because the decision was only his.
What essential amino acids (which make up protein) do you believe are missing from a vegan diet? All are present in plant foods. You can look it up in any nutrition textbook. Legumes, nuts and seeds provide more of certain ones, grains provide more of others. So your meals for a day might contain, as an example, oatmeal with almond milk and chopped walnuts, PB&J, rice and beans. Voila-your proteins are covered. Just trying to curb the spread of misinformation!
@ Seriously: are you serious?? Of course vegans breast feed. Human breast milk is not the same thing as cow milk Did you seriously think they are the same thing?? There might be one or two vegans in history who didn't get that, but, as someone married to a vegan and raising a son we have total idiots like you who think they're witty and cute by asking us ALL THE TIME when my wife is breast feeding our son "doesn't that make you a hypocrite giving him breast milk?" to which her response is "I don't want to consume the milk of another animal...you know...one that we aren't supposed to eat. Human milk is made by nature for HUMANS." She doesn't say it, but I think it ...MORON! It's the same idiots who ask her if she is upset by cats eating meat. Ummmm...cats are canivores...so obviously...no.
This is a silly myth.
There is nothing special about meat protein. Protein is composed of amino acids, and all essential amino acids available in meat are available from plants.
There are vegan athletes and body builders (Google it). They routinely win or place well against meat eaters. It's because they get all the same stuff meat eaters get, just in plant form. The only thing they don't get are clogged arteries, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, heart attacks, strokes, etc. But happily, none of these are essential for life, haha.
We all teach our children our own conceptions of right and wrong. At least veganism has more basis in morality and fact than some of the religious stuff that people indoctrinate their children with. Talk about propaganda!
It's only propaganda if it's an attempt to deceive someone into believing a falsehood. What vegans say is true, and there is generally no attempt to deceive when people teach their children about veganism. So it's not propaganda.
The problem I have with veganism is that it attempts to draw a line that simply cannot be drawn given our way of life in the modern world. Sure you've made your stand about animal welfare and if the point is about making moral and conscious decisions in order to lead an ethical life, then what about all the roadkill? Do vegans walk instead of drive cars? Even if you never ran over anything, what about the bugs that are plastered on your windshield? What about the carbon emissions from your vehicles or in producing electricity to run your lights or your computer? Do you go out of your way to make sure the electricity going to your home is solar or some other green source? Veganism is just a convenient way for some people to be elitist about something. Factory farms weigh on my conscience too, but don't think you are better than someone else just because you're still only taking half-measures to live morally. As long as any 'evil' or 'wrong' exists in the world, we are all collectively responsible. It's only a matter of how much you care to inconvenience yourself. You're no better than the rest of us.
Food Zealot, that's the thing. I disagree with you. You have to draw a line somewhere, no matter what you believe. All you can do is just try your best. No one "line" is ever going to be perfect. Should vegans eat meat because their cars squish bugs? No, of course not. I'm not a vegan, but I do believe they're trying to the best of their ability to be compassionate toward animals. Nothing is perfect. It's like saying Christians should give up on their religion because they may occasionally have a bad thought, LOL. We all try to just do the best we can and I think that's what the vegans are doing. Trying, in ways they can, in possible ways, to practice their lifestyle.
The point of my post is that no one should impose their so-called ideals or morals on anyone else. In this case it's veganism but I present the philosophical exercise as an example of how you must think about your ethics whatever they may be. I ask no one to give up what they believe and it is your right to do, so your comment about Christians simply does not follow. I never present any belief system to be perfect. That being the case, my only point is to chill the hell out, vegans. You're no better than anyone else.
Here's the thing ... and you're talking two conservations here (I was responding to your original post), but if you're back to ranking on vegans who rank on other people - just walk away. If you don't like what someone is saying, if you disagree with their beliefs, don't hang out with them. Nobody's gonna chase you into your house and make you either read this book or eat like a vegan. Meat-eaters also rank on vegans and vegetarians. It cuts both ways. But, truthfully, if someone who loves to hunt wants to give me a hard time (I don't hunt) or brag about it, I either smile and don't listen, or just walk away. Hunters can express their opinion. It's a free country. But they can't make me listen, and the same goes for you. Vegans have a right to practice their beliefs, and a right to, if someone asks, say why. And you, if you're the listener and didn't ask to hear about it, can tune them out or leave. Unless they've like tied you up or something, or maybe are holding you hostage, LOL. But I kind of don't think that's what's happening here.
Perhaps they are doing it because they feel it is healthier, and it has nothing to do with compassion for the animals
That's true - there are some vegans who do it as a healthier lifestyle, not because of the animals. Good point.
I will not disagree because for many that is true. Still was not my point. See above.
I am a vegetarian. I was brought up to be one by my parents for religious reasons. They always said that we do not harm animals and civilized humans should not be non-vegetarians. As an adult, I thought about it and chose to remain a vegetarian. I do not eat egg or fish either. I am not an activist and do not try to impose my life choices (including religious ones) on others. I feel everyone have the right to make their own choices. I chose to bring up my son vegetarian (he does eat egg). He is 2 yrs old and we are slowing explaining to him that we do not eat meat. I never thought that he actually understood what I was telling him, until we were reading a book and he asked what does a lion eat and I said meat and he said "Sam not eat meat". He later said the same about chicken. So he understands. We have decided that he needs to make his own choice as an adult whether he wants to remain a vegetarian or not. For one of the person who commented about some vegans being militant. I have only one thing to say. You have no idea how some meat eaters (non-vegetarians) are with vegetarians. I don't agree with militant attitude about your personal choices and beliefs. I have had people say that they would sneak in meat and I wouldn't know and once I eat I would be hooked on to it. These people knew that one of my reasons to remain vegetarian is a religous one. I recently had Quiznos make me veggie sub with bacon in it. Many non-vegetarians either pretend to be or are really clueless about vegetarians. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG IN BRINGING YOUR OWN CHILDREN UP WITH YOUR BELIEFS. There are millions of people in India who are vegetarians. Millions of perfectly healthy people. My grandmother died a healthy woman at 95yrs of age never having even seen an egg.
It makes no difference to me how a person chooses to live their life and I will support that right with all my energy. There is, however, a story I would like to share. I recently graduated from a small liberal arts college which has a decent sized vegan population. I remember vividly multiple occasions when I was verbally abused (and in one instance I thought I might be physically attacked) by a group of militant vegans because I choose to eat meat. Now, there is only so much abuse a person can take. As I said, I will always support a person's right to choose a vegan lifestyle, but I cannot in good conscience support the vegans themselves because in my experience they display ignorant and disgusting behavior I do not find healthy or acceptable. If you are trying to educate, encourage, or share your ideas with others it tends to work better if you nice about it.
LBS, I agree completely – i was a vegan in college and, even if prompted, never discussed ethics of animal product consumption at the table. Different people have different priorities. A lot of people told me that they became vegetarians or reduced their meat consumption because of me. I think that the militant vegans do more harm than good – you aren't going to convince one of out of ten people to be vegans, but you could probably convince ten people to reduce their meat consumption by 10%. I have to point out, though, that I was often ridiculed for my dietary choices; if I were as critical of others as they were of me, they certainly would have called me a militant vegan, too!
Yes, there is only so much abuse that one can take. Many non-vegetarians knowingly and sometimes unknowingly abuse vegetarians. I was told by my friend who is a vegetarian that if he ever gets my son alone he would feed him meat. And comments (they are supposed to be funny) about how my son and I just need to taste it and we would never go back.
I completely agree that the way the "vegan militants' treated you is wrong. I am a vegetarian and I do not impose my life choices on others. Yet, the world does need to learn tolerance of vegetarians and vegans and there needs to be more education about it. I find it utterly silly when people try to tell me about the nutrients I am loosing because I am not eating meat.
Have to tried to consider why they were militant? Because they have to be on the defensive all the time.
You have a point there. I've been on the receiving side of some pretty nasty barbs about my not eating meat ... and I truly try not to say anything to anyone about it. It's best to just tune it out and know that people are just sensitive and if you don't do what they do or aren't the same, it's upsetting to them.
I am not a vegan, in fact I do not like vegans. But the question about children does not make any sense. As long as it is acceptable to brainwash children with fire and brimstone religious talk, no way veganism is worse than that.
Fear and Guilt: being used on children since 10,000 BC in the name of 'Religion'
Here is some real data for Y'all folks.
31% of Indians are vegans. That is 350 Million people. The smartest people on the planet, who I know, are all from this group. For the record, I am not a vegan and I eat all kinds of meat. And I hate the Vegans.
But, I would like to bring notice to you guys n gals that these Vegans do not lack anything in their diet. They get everything they need.. And they are very very very smart.
well, if you looking for very very smart, try the chinese. And they eat everything, even monkey brains still warm.
I'm a hunter since childhood, I enjoy good food whether meat, fish, or vegetable. But I choose not to eat certain things like monkey brains, goat eyes, snakes, or mountain oysters. I don't abuse animals, in fact I love animals, but happen to believe that God put them on earth for our use and appreciation. Oh, I don't eat dog either, my dog runs out house, let's us know when we are all supposed to go to bed, eat, play, and babysits the children. She let's us know when the children are doing something they are not supposed to do. Would vegan prefer to see animals starve and die?
Anil: Why do you hate vegans?
I think you're confusing veganism with vegetarianism. India is predominantly vegetarian.
Nothing like disliking a disparate group of people, Alex
I was a vegetarian for 14 years and cooked in a vegan setting for four of those. As a compromise with my husband when we started date, I began eating local, organic meat a few times a week, so I feel like I have a sense of all sides. From what I've observed, meat-eating, vegetarianism, and veganism are all healthy when done properly with a balanced diet. One diet may be better for a particular body than another.
I would never feed my child a vegan or vegetarian diet, but I would be so happy if they decided that's what they wanted to do. The reason is that all the veggie-from-birth folks I know (veggie or vegan) cannot tolerate meat. Their system just cannot handle it. I want my children to have the option of eating meat if they choose, so I would never feed them NO meat. I imagine, however, that they'll eat very little meat, just because I eat very little meat.
It is time to stomp out this human filth once and for all.Nothing worse then a rotten stinking animal rights ret@rd.Ingrid Newkirk and Wayne Pacelle are criminals and should be thrown in prison.
ray: you have issues. get some help.
this whole thing is hysterical! as a vegan who is trying to find another vegan to date, i can tell you there are very, very few of us and its not because were dying of malnutrition. there are probably six people who are going to read this stupid book!! OMG people get a life! eat meat, dont eat meat, tell your kids what to do, or dont tell your kids what to do. get over it already.
OMG this woman sounds like a radical animal rights wackjob. Will someone please these urban ret@rds up? Keep away from my children.The world has had it with PETArds,HSUS weirdos and ALF terrorist.
This book should be called " Vegan( is what you WILL BE or you won't have my )Love...Having Hate and Taking Action" by Ruthless Ruby.
This kind of book is just sick. In my opinion; the author needs mental help & her poor 7 year old needs social worker advocacy.
wow it is tragic how many people posting on here are so misinformed about healthy eating habits. for the record i have been vegan for 25 years. i am 45 years old and have no health problems at all. in fact i am very healthy and can run 12 miles in under 2 hours. a vegan diet of vegetables and grains is very healthy. if you wanna eat meat , fine but please dont spread misinformation by talking about things you know nothing about and have no experience with.
There is a medical study that says vegans die sooner than any other group, even people who overindulge in meat. Steve Jobs had cancer before 50. The real issue here is this bizarre author who draws sick pictures in a book for her 7 year old to scare the child into doing what she wants. Mentally ill & abusive IMHO.
What medical study would that be, oh angry one?
Please post a link to this "studies"
Uhm, well, thei friend of my sister's hairstylist's Mom knows a lot about this stuff and she swaers by it, so it muct be true...
Let me google that for you
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2006/jan2006_awsi_01.htm
Just finished a fund raiser for a farm sanctuary and met with the owner who spoke to me about stories of her rescued animals:
1. Tens of thousands of LIVE "spent" egg layers being roughly grabbed by factory farm workers a few birds at a time and thrown into wood chippers and grounded alive. Rescuer could only save 50 birds, hardest thing to do, to leave the rest behind...
2. "Spent" dairy cow with broken pelvis lying on ground being kicked, beaten and (electric) prodded by slaughterhouse workers because they couldn't get her to stand up and walk to the kill floor to make hamburger
3. Thousands of pigs being burnt alive in barn fires and while that happened, pigs screaming, factory farm workers could be heard laughing in the background in the undercover video
These are common occurrences in our country where meat/dairy/eggs production is on a massive scale to feed consumers' demands (every single SECOND, a few hundred land animals are being killed for food). Organic farm animals might have better feed but they still go to the same slaughter facilities. Vegans are people who believe we can do better than that, and commit themselves to do something about it.
So, instead of supporting all the ethical farmers vegans malnourish themselves, & force it upon children who will grow up with permanent health issues. A book like this for small children is abusive, so is a lower IQ & shortened lifespan.
oh please. vegans are not malnourished. ive been vegan for 25 years and im very healthy. i can run 12 miles in under 2 hours. open your eyes. meat and dairy is bad for you.
You became a vegan after 20. It can kill a child, go ask the vegan parents who are in jail for murder. Reputable pediatricians have warned parents that a vegan diet can cause the brain to fail to develop in a child under 2 plus it leads to a lower IQ & weakened organs in older children. Also The institute of health study says adult vegans have the lowest life expectancy & a much higher than normal rate of death following surgery due to malnutrition, that means you, chris. As we live, our bodies repair our organs, but only if they have the nutrients to do so. Studies on longevity have linked organ strength to life span. The scientific proof is in, you are just a denier with your fingers in your ears going la la la la la. Eroding your longevity day after day. I'll send flowers.
I have been eating meat and drinking whole milk my entire life and am also very healthy. I imagine this is because I eat a balanced diet and exercise. I agree that there is nothing wrong with eating a vegan diet, but making blanket statements like "meat and dairy is bad for you" just makes you sound as ignorant and foolish as those people you are criticizing. I know this is going to come as a shock to you, but lots of meat eaters can match your running time. It is great that you are healthy, but it is obvious your diet has done nothing to improve your attitude.
well, what was the very first food you ate, drank? hmmm probably milk. But because it didn't come from a cow that makes it still veganism? God didn't make vegan food for newborns.......
Soyan, It's amazing to me how people will deny and deny the issues of factory farming, like TwM below who keeps postulating that these conditions only happen on a "few farms." It's sad.
So instead you cut up, boild, grind, and rip out of the ground helpless innocent plants. Do you care nothing about their feelings? Your ethics are no better than that of the butcher.
Life exists by eating life.
It is always the same with these posts and comments. People who benefit from the status quo (ranchers, animal food producers) become hyper-defensive and go on attack mode because of obvious self interest. It becomes not a debate on the topic but people hurling insults and spreading lies as though this will help their cause... I guess people make their own choice what they want to do given the facts on their animal food sources which is 95-99% from factory farms and how much damage it is doing to the animals, the environment and human health. It is my hope that with more reading material such as this new book and many others that help to raise awarness of the issues and educate the public on more sustainable and compassionate food choices, our world will become a better place not just for the animals, but ultimately for the survival of mankind.
Reading the latest comments on this post once again confirms my belief that people can and will lie through their teeth and have no regard for others' well being and/or safety for their own gains, financial or otherwise. Parents would be wise to encourage their kids to be independent and critical thinkers so that they can ultimately rise above this culture of deception and corruption, and I believe this book is an excellent tool!
You are condoning an abusive children's book. To forward your agenda. Studies have shown vegans die early on average & do not survive surgeries due to malnourishment. As for giving those picture to young children...That is mentally ill. Sick. This is a cult, not a viable diet.
you are misinformed and incorrect. please mind your own business and stop posting lies and insults. hey we get it. you wanna eat meat. nobodys stopping you.
Stop condoning child abuse. This woman is a real sicko. What kind of parent creates a whole book just to scare her child into doing what she wants. Complete with disgusting pictures. I do not like child abuse. Scr3w up your own lives all you like but do not abuse the kid!
Thank you, Chris. Wow, whoever this person is, they're absolutely hateful in their constant postings. Funny their post name is "HealthyLongLife" when they're obviously consumed by anger. That's not what I'd call healthy, LOL.
How come I don't see the Vegans protesting Capital Punishment, how come I don't see them protesting war. You know big signs PETA for peace, that sort of thing.
Killing Animals for food is just what we do, that is how we got our big brains, that is why we are so disconnected from our closest animal ancestors. We were willing to kill for our supper.
Don't raise your children to be as screwed up as you are, if you are a Vegan. Please give them a chance at a normal life. I don't guess it is too bad, America needs weirdo's of every sort but we also need soldiers. You can't march on broccoli, you need some meat if you are going to be a killer.
I actually tried being vegetarian for over a year and I was always hungry. I wasn't even trying to be vegan, that would have been worse. I met a lot of vegetarians that year and there never was one of them that I looked at and said, "boy I wished I looked like that guy"
So, I am tired of ragging on you folks that have chosen an unreasonable way of life. If nothing else you are good to make fun of.
What on earth are you talking about? Have you taken a poll of capital punishment and war protesters and found that none of them are vegan? I happen to be vegan, and I have worked for many social and political causes, possibly right alongside of you. Are you of the opinion that individuals are allowed only one cause per lifetime?
Nothing a Vegan could say about food and its consumption would ever make me want to suffer the way they do.
I've been a vegetarian since childhood and vegan for a lot of years and now mostly vegan but not totally. I hear stories about obnoxious vegetarians and holier than thou vegans but I don't see those people. I have been on the receiving end of people who think I should eat meat many times over the years. I don't ever tell others how to eat and what to eat and would like them to do the same for me. My experience is that *some* meat eaters *seem* to be the ones who push their beliefs and way of eating on vegetarians/vegans more than the other way around. But I'm sure there are vegetarians and vegans who fit the stereotypes, too. We wanted our child to be veggie until old enough to choose and he clearly chose not to be a veggie. i respect his choice. I also respect the choice of families that are veggie/vegan. People have posted that the parents should give kids the choice. Well, shouldn't meat eating families give kids the choice, too? I was lucky my parents honored my choice to become veggie. A bunch of people I know tell of a time when they were young and became veggie but their parents forced them to keep eating meat. I think that's a pretty common thing.
Parents should realize that being a vegan comes with a price for a child. A child is actively developing their body systems. The child will not have as high of an IQ due to lack of enzymes only found in meat products. The child's organs will be weaker too. Supplementation is not good enough as a substitute for actual nourishing food, too little of it is absorbed by a child's underdeveloped systems. Children under age 2 must intake a certain amount of the correct fats, or die as their brain fails to develop. We have vegan parents in jail for murder right now in the most egregious cases, but there are other vegan children who will live diminished lives. Those effects only become apparent as long term deficits decades later.
I actually feel sorry for you if you were raised vegan. Even if you possess the genetic capacity for longevity, there is medical evidence that organ strength is vitally important to a long healthy life.
Vegans now have the highest rate of death during any surgery due to malnutrition. We now have enough data to know scientifically that a vegan's average life expectancy has dropped & is lower than all other groups based upon diet. It is too late for you now unfortunately, even if you change your mind. Someone already made that decision for you to shorten your life. Your organs were deprived during an important developmental stage. Plus, you will never know now how intelligent you could have been.
I feel real pity for this woman's children. She is abusing them mentally as well as physically with this book. Even a bibliophile like me would want to burn this sick little book before it hurts more children.
I forgot to mention that like vegans, vegetarians still lack essential nutrients & suffer the same effects. The addition of dairy & eggs helps but it cannot replace meats/fish in the human diet. Vegetarians have the second lowest longevity in scientific health comparisons based upon diet. Even the people who abuse themselves by the over consumption of red meat have a higher life expectancy than both vegans & vegetarians.
First, I neither condone nor condemn this book-I have not seen it nor have I read it. Have you? Second, what 'nutrients' are only found in meat and nowhere else? Third, where is the link to the studies you claim show vegans with lower life expectancy? So far it has only been your word that the studies even exist.
I'm glad you haven't experienced the holier-than-thous, but trust me they're out there. I live in a vegan, vegetarian, organic, hippie, trust fund sanctuary, and there are many vegetarians and vegans pushing their agenda.
Fortunately, my vegetarian/vegan friends don't care that I eat meat, and I don't care that they don't. For me, I'd like to see more of them trying to reform big ag practices under the assumption that the entire country won't magically become vegetarian.
So how is life in Boulder today?
Good deduction. It's a beautiful day here today.
I knew it...I am down the road a piece in Denver.
And for the record, wait until Trader Joe's opens...
As a omnivore living with a vegan for the last four years, it's really not such a bad thing (admittedly she does it for dietary reasons only.. she's fine with leather, etc) but I try to eat from both sides of the fence now- balance and moderation.
To be honest, most of us in the U.S. have been raised with a lot of meat at the table, and that's what we're comfortable with. It's a 'weird' thing when you aren't exposed to it growing up, but I can generally make a lot of dishes vegan by omitting one or two items (mainly dairy) and so far we've never had an issue eating out. It's just not alien to me anymore.
If we had kids they would likely be vegetarians, and I'm 'ok' with that idea. If they wanted to try something else we'd be fine with that too.
Might I suggest that if you have children you raise them as omnivores with a varied diet high in fruits & vegetables; at least during their growth & development for strong organs & a higher IQ. Both vegan & vegetarian diets lack some nutrients that cannot be compensated for by supplements. Both are associated with a drop in life expectancy & a higher than normal death rate after surgery.
http://www.celestialhealing.net/physicalveg3.htm I do not take a lot of medicines for 5 years. I thank to vegan.
I'm already having to count calories and limit my junk food. If I were forced to stop eating meat I would rather die. Food shouldn't be made a chore! It's one of the simple pleasures in life. Now let me eat my steak in peace!
As an animal lover, I've gravitated to only eatng certified organic meats, but as I've discovered more vegetarian foods, I'm enjoying them more and liking meat less, so I'm becomig more and more vegan without even trying.
veganism=how to slow the human brain down to a snail's pace
I don't know if being a vegan slows your brain to a snail's pace....Steve Jobs was a vegan and apparently so was Da Vinci.
Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet. –Albert Einstein
You chose some really bad examples tashi3. Steve Jobs died incredibly young. He suffered from a cancer that would have killed him before age 50 if he had not taken an organ transplant away from a healthier person. Da Vicinci was trying to find the secret to perpetual youth & a long life when he experimented with being a vegetarian. He actually was very disappointed by the results. He complained in letters about how old looking he became as his skin fat disappeared causing severe wrinkles. He only lived to be 67. As for Einstein...He was a genius at mathematical theory, not medicine. He also forgot to put his pants on one morning when he was excited about a theory & rushed into work without them. He also did not live very long, only 76. I am sure Albert would have changed his mind when he saw the scientific studies about how vegans & vegetarians have a shorter life span & have a higher death rate after surgery.
Overall I agree with the premise of your rebuttal, but "only" 76? That's not too shabby, especially for the 50s.
And there's nothing wrong with being so excited and so brilliant that you forget your pants once in a while.
Here is some real data for Y'all folks.
31% of Indians are vegans. That is 350 Million people. The smartest people on the planet, who I know, are all from this group. For the record, I am not a vegan and I eat all kinds of meat. And I hate the Vegans.
But, I would like to bring notice to you guys n gals that these Vegans do not lack anything in their diet. They get everything they need.. And they are very very very smart.
I don't understand why there are so many arguments on here about whether people should eat meat. The fact is some people choose not to eat it, some people do. Don't read this book to your child if you disagree with it. Everyone in this country has a right to there beliefs, that is what freedom is. Both sides need to just let it go and allow people to make their own choices. If you truly educate yourself on this (or any) topic, both sides of it, and decide to go one way or another that's your business and no one elses!
Right on, man.
It is cruel and unusual punishment to force or even attempt to sway children of this age into veganism. If you look at your teeth, you will note these pointy, carnivorous ones, and these flat herbivore ones. Humans are OMNIVORES, by NATURE, we eat meat, and vegetation. Why do these hippies try to oppose the natural course of life?
Did you also look your brain? Do you see any sign of an advanced consciousness that senses emotions like feeling others' pain and joy instead of just blind desire and rudiments of carnivorous past?
"Did you also look your brain" is surely not evidence of your "advanced consciousness" there jay. And to those sarcastic, pithy supporters of this, my prior P.E.T.A. comment was in no way meant to be original....it was meant to do exactly what it did; agitate and infuriate these freaking hippies.
Forcing a child to be a vegan is child abuse. Let them decide when their are of age.
Child abuse? Really? You're an idiot! Why on earth would you care what someone else feeds their kids? My kids eat meat, i could care less what others feed theirs.
Wow, then I guess my daughter's pediatrician should have called child protective services instead of noting how healthful her vegan diet is.
You must have a quack or are not revealing the details of your child's abnormal diet.
No, neither of those is the case. Otherwise there wouldn't have been much point in my mentioning it, would there? Seek help please. Your vile attitude is likely to get in the way of your "healthy long life."
I believe this children's book's main focus is how the vegan lifestyle is about love for the planet and the animals that are unmistakably and undeniably suffering at the hands of humans. In the beginning I didn't understand why a children's book in particular. But having read the newest comments on this post, I am starting to understand. Look at how it almost exclusively turn into a discussion of what is best of Us, or Me. What is best for me to eat, how it will benefit me and mine, it is My choice.... but I really think the concern was meant to be for the animals that are suffering right now because of what we have chosen for them – since they are just food, and as soon as that label gets put onto them, their pain magically becomes nonexistent (???????) How does that make mankind any different from the animals that we argue are beneath us? Surely humans can understand that IN TERMS OF THEIR ABILITY TO FEEL PAIN AND SUFFEING, cows/pigs/chickens/turkeys/fish are no different than a regular pet dog/cat/rabbit/fish/...? What cost to our human-ness are we willing to pay to be so schizophrenic about the animals we say we ought be kind to and thought we were? When you discuss with a very young child about these things, they automatically understand and know exactly where the focus should be – the animals. What must have happened to us that harden our hearts as we grow older? Is it really necessary? Vegans prove that the answer is no. I think with issues surfacing related to our planet's resources, population health, systematic animal cruelty, it is about time humans evolve to recognize that it is no longer regarded as sophisticated or beneficial or necessary... to disconnect ourselves from the rest of nature but to understand that in order to survive, our task must be to widen our circle of compassion to include all creatures. I believe when we take care of others, and only if we take care of others will our own needs be truly met. This may be a foreign concept for some but in any religion, the most basic teaching is exactly this: to treat others as we want to be treated. I highly recommend Dr. Will Tuttle's amazon #1 best seller "The World Peace Diet" to anyone who may be interested in learning more.
RIGHT ON !
With those nasty illustrations of animals for a 7 year old? That is gruesome & mentally ill. That author is one sick abusive parent.
Excuse my while I barf.Please tell us how you feel about hunting and fishing?
Tuttle is a musician and a philosopher. He is not a physician and not a scientific researcher. Sorry, but I don't read propaganda and I certainly don't make dietary and health choices based on a philosophy that has nothing to do with biology. Least we all forget, our pretty little goats, sheep, cows, pigs, and chickens would have no need to exist if we did not need them for food. I really doubt that you will have farmers keeping them around for pets.
And I guess Vegans also don't take medicine and never had a vaccine in their lives. Look out for those vitamins also. Some may have shellfish in it. Look out if you are having a heart attack and they give you Adrenalin. It's a hormone made from the glands of hogs cattle and sheep. If you have a rash and your medicine contains Arachidonic Acid.. Oh well. It is a liquid fatty acid. Duodenum Substances are the digestive tracts of cows and pigs and are added to some vitamins and medicines... Look out. Don't get sick!
No. I am going to eat meat. I don't care if I have to take lipitor all my life. I don't care if I have a heart attach at the age of 48. I don't care if I die of that heart attack leaving my kids to fend for themselves.
Also, I don't care that my unhealthy lifestyle is raising the insurance costs. I don't care if I have to file for bankruptcy and loose my house because of the medical bills.
Eating meat, saturated fats, and other animal products is not correlated with heart attacks. Eating foods fried in industrial seeds, overloading your body with sugar, and massive inflammation due to allergens that are extremely common in our diet, is.
I was vegan and had very high cholesterol. I went paleo, and my cholesterol numbers immediately went in the right direction. It is not a coincidence. Because of meat, I do not need to worry about lipitor.
Steph's story is not uncommon. People who have started eating Paleo/Primal have seen their cholesterol numbers improve, reverse their T2 diabetes and fix all kinds of other 'diseases' of Western civilization.
Regina, yes we are aware. Thank you.
Regina, none of this is news to any knowledgable person, vegan or otherwise. The point of ethical veganism is to minimize suffering. Just because we can't eliminate all of it by our choices doesn't mean we shouldn't do what is feasible.
Anytime you saying you are focusing on a choice of eating because you feel it is healither is walking the line of Orthorexia. This isn't to be confused with healthy eating. When personal belief is attached to a diet and the drive for perfection it is Orthorexia. The main problem with Veganism is it is a borderline eating disorder with a majority harping on healthier eating.
Most vegans use a moral high ground approach to defend their choice of being a vegan. Placing a hierarchy of a vegan's ability to under the empathy of animals. Why do other animals in nature kills and eat each other? Do most vegans chose to ignore the fact that they themselves are also an animal? When people decide to stop eating meat or chose to segregate their food choices that is their business. They have the right to make that choice. They don't have the right to force their opinions on others.
Vegan's seem to think their opinion matters more than other people and that everyone else is beneath them. This is ever so prevalent in the fact this book is produced. The author feels they are allow to use manipulation and coercion to help other parents not allow children to make choices. I would have no problem with vegans and their choices if they didn't feel it was necessary to triumph their choices as being more correct than anyone else's. The simple fact of them doing that negates their ability to an opinion. If they can't respect others choices, without belittling them for their choices they are morally worse than anyone else.
Thank you. I appreciated your response.
Not all vegans are disrespectful to people who eat meat. I rarely eat red meat but I will have maybe one serving of fish or chicken a week. There are multiple very strong arguments for limiting meat consumption. Firstly, animals are caged, tortured, and suffered just to put food on our plate. Secondly, it takes so much more energy to produce one calorie of meat compared to a calorie of vegetable. No one would starve in the world if we all switched to veganism. To me this is quite a compelling argument. Thirdly, because it takes so much more energy to have a calorie of fish or beef, it also causes a lot more pollution. Lastly, meat has high levels of saturated fat and cholesterol. Red meat is the worst while fish and poultry are typically healthier. Processed meat consumption (deli meat, hot dogs) is also associated with higher cancer rates. A diet with even a small amount of saturated fat and cholesterol will cause plaque build up in the arteries which leads to heart attacks and bypass surgeries etc. Getting heart disease with a strict vegan diet is almost unheard of. These are the reasons why I try to limit my meat consumption.
If the whole world switched to veganism, there is not enough arable land to sustain growth of food. For proper harvest rotation and being able to sustain during years of drought and extreme weather there would be great food shortages. The US has the largest amount of usable arable land in the world. With specialization of food growth limited to certain regions there would not be enough food grow to sustain every person. Seed development in most countries is not as advanced as in the US.
Yes if the US used all of its arable land at once we could produce enough food to feed the world, but the ground would burn out so quickly we wouldn't be able to sustain. You need enough time between crop growth in order to repair the nutrients of the land. Your statements are correct in a short term situation but would fail in a long term situation. Read articles on Indian to see what can happen to countries burning out land quickly. They grow cotton to make money but cotton robs the land of nutrients very quickly. To grow everything that is needed products would increase in price quickly causing hyper inflation. Without taking into account crop rotation, seed development, economies of scale, import taxes, tariffs, and the environment then yes the whole world could switch to veganism in a perfect world.
Tim, it takes 16 pounds of grain to make one pound of beef. 94 percent of all our land goes towards producing meat (http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/environment.html). I agree that it would be hard to feed everyone on earth but my main point is that it is incredibly inefficient and wasteful to produce meat compared vegetables. Given the concerns of climate change and depleting fossil fuels, we need to be smart about what food we produce. The website I referenced above shows a lot of great statistics.
You do know that animals eat like 10-15 pounds of food to generate 1 pound of meat? If everyone became vegan, we would have so much food surplus that we will be able to feed all the poor hungry people for free. The leftover food could then be used for production of biodiesel and ethanol.
Brandon – none of your facts are true. Cattle and other ruminants can convert grass into meat. Many acres of American land could not support agriculture any other way.
is someone forcing people to read this book to their children? Books are written on every possible subject, some I find very offensive.. you know what I do, I don't read them!
Amen. The food taliban in action.
Ruby has just authored the vegan equivalent of "Mein Kampf". Her slogan could be Ve Haf Vays Of Makink Yoo Tink Vat Ve Vhant!
In my opinion, the energy spent on trying to be vegan could be better spent. It seems to be much ado about nothing. Moderation in all things. Veganism seems to be as fanatical as the steakhouses the author dislikes.
Bull. Based on your mentality...you can rape people in "moderation".
Jin, There is a pervasive myth that we can eat everything in moderation. I agree with you that it is wrong but comparing it to "raping in moderation" is inflammatory and misses the point. Let's stick to the topic of food only. Any amount of saturated fat and cholesterol will cause atherosclerosis and eventually heart disease.
Sorry Visitor. These militant vegans want to tell everyone how to live now, by equating eating meat purchased from ethically operated farms in moderation to rape. There is something offensive about vegans who make these types of stupid statements..I smell PETA.
Just in Time for MAD COW.
Veganism! Finally! (only took our President Clinton 2 heart attacks to figure it out.)
Now a HeadLine, "Are kids to young to understand Meat?"
Then the same survey including the obesity stats -ask us if Fast Food is good 'meat' for kids! lol
Think of the top ten most intelligent animals on this planet. Meat eaters, every one of them.
Actually, non-human primates are almost all vegetarian. The few apes that do eat meat are still mostly vegetarian.
That's more a matter of availability than preference, however.
It doesn't take a lot of brains to hunt grass.
Last I checked, elephants were herbivores.
Since when have elephants been highly ranked in the intelligence category?
Not true. Gorillas & orangutans are among the 10 smartest animals, & they are strictly vegetarians. Among the great apes, only chimps will sometimes eat meat.
I don't know if elephants are in the top 10 or not, but they are also very bright. And they are purely plant-eaters.
I would say that if you're not paying money to see a nutritionist or you're not a nutritionist yourself, and you're not willing to research it and plan out your meals properly, don't do it. You can't just feed your kids bean burritos or peanut butter sandwiches and soy milk until they are old enough to move out.
I'd worry a lot more about parents who raise their children on diets of McDonald and other fast foods combined with over processed food from the grocery store shelves.
It is quite easy to become vegan and way healthier. Leafy greens, grains, fruit and frozen veggies. Buy lots of frozen veggies and dump them into a big pan. Add spices, chopped garlic, herbs, ginger, etc. Try to replicate one of your favorite dishes vegan style.
There's plenty of room to be healthy in both veganism and omnivore eating. Vegan isn't de facto more healthy.
Bottomline is, we are omnivores. Yes, it would be nice if all cows and pigs and chicken had miles of pristine pastures each to roam for years before being slaughtered, but with seven billion people to feed, one would need to have a few screws loose to think that's anywhere near feasible. It is what it is. Animals ruled the earth for half a billion (500,000,000) years, while killing and eating each other. We have only been eating them for maybe ten thousand (10,000) years in any meaningful quantity. Now go enjoy that BBQ steak without the guilt.
Bottomline is, we are omnivores. Yes, it would be nice if all cows and pigs and chicken had miles of pristine pastures each to roam for years before being slaughtered, but with seven billion people to feed, I have to ask, are you nuts? It is what it is. Animals ruled the earth for half a billion (500,000,000) years, while killing and eating each other. We have only been eating them for maybe ten thousand (10,000) years in any meaningful quantity. Now go enjoy that BBQ steak without the silly guilt.
I know that if done correctly, there is nothing wrong raising a kid as vegetarian. However, my own personal observations it seems that many vegetarian kids I know of are small and sickly looking- which leads me to believe some parents don't have a clue how to maintain proper nutrition and are just "winging it" based on the latest pulp on the internet and magazines. I feel sorry for those kids.
Vegans don't drink milk, cheese, or any dairy products.
I agree, Bob. Eating vegetarian is MORE than just not eating meats.
While I do not believe children should be raised vegan (Vitamin B-12 in supplements is NOT the same, and dietary cholesterol is important for the developing brain, even past the period of breast feeding), there are such things as healthy, responsible vegetarian diets for children. As you note, those parents with the sickly vegetarian children are simply likely just winging it. (Ah, Doritos... no meat in em.... eat up!)
Healthy choices go beyond what food groups we eliminate, to how ALL our food is actually made. Eliminate the center aisles of most grocery stores, and eat around the periphery, Especially good friesh veggies. If you are vegetarian, after eliminating the center of the store, eliminate the meats and seafoods, but do keep healthy types of yogurt, and eggs in your home. (I do get my eggs at the local farmer's market, for a variety of reasons.)
Being a vegetarian doesn't give one the license to raise one's child as a Starchitarian.
Actually, supplemental B12 is often more easily absorbed than that from animal foods, and chemically they are identical once they are absorbed. All people over age 50 are encouraged to take a B12 supplement in case they are unable to absorb the B12 from animal foods. B12 is a nonissue for vegans as long as the individual (of any age) consumes adequate fortified beverages or nutritional yeast or takes a supplement. It's very simple to do.
The supliments are not identical, and they can't be utilized by your body as well. That is why you have to take much more suppliment than you would need if it was derived from a natural source.
Yes, Bob, but I also feel sorry for obese children whose parents don't know about nutrition. I see obese children and their obese parents walking out of certain fast food restaurants. These children and parents represent most of the reason our health care costs are rising. I do agree that vegans and carnivores should learn about nutrition. Doctors need to learn more about nutrition, too.
I have often wondered why, if we are supposed to be omnivores, we do not have elongated canine teeth like the omnivore and carnivore animals. We do cutting and grinding teeth. Maybe we are supposed to be vegan/vegetarian?
Actually, our teeth and guts all point to omnivore.
But meat eating animals (lions, dogs, cats, etc) all have very long canine teeth for digging in and ripping meat. I do not. Perhaps you do? Seriously though, I think, probably, very early man had an easier time finding roots, berries, fruits, etc than running about trying to kill things with primitive weapons. They probably existed on a vegan diet-or maybe vegetarian as they could probably find birds' eggs.
We DO have long K9 teeth – many of us got these filed down by the dentist as children. The K9's are for tearing flesh. incisors are designed for cutting flesh. Our molars and for grinding, i.e., nuts, greens, etc. We are omnivores... I don't have anything against vegetarianism, but most vegetarians I know live soley on pasta. Most of these people look quite sickly; pale, their skin is drawn, they have low energy, etc. To be a real vegetarian is hard hard hard – it requires a lot of work!
it is hard work to be a vegan at first, but today it is hardly hard work to be a vegaterian, unless you mostly eat out.
Humans have a rather remarkably UNspecialized set of teeth that are clearly well suited to their omnivorous diet; they allow them to eat pretty much everything.
Very long canines are most useful for inflicting puncture wounds and for various dominance displays. Humans evolved or invented other ways to accomplish the same things.
Just as Ruby said on CNN, it is a controversy because how we treat animals is so controversial. It is so much required for kids to know where their food is coming from and make their choice. It is a great thing Ruby has done to bring the facts out to the public.
Naren, that's good. I also want to know, as well as have children know, where all our food comes from.
I don't want to raise children to eat factory farmed meat. I don't want to raise children to eat buckets of subsidized corn foodoid substances. And, at a certain age, any child I'd raise would get to have the choice of becoming vegan (but certainly after puberty, because I want to be certain that the child's brain is as well-formed as possible. If they want to become (healthy) vegetarian before that, that's fine too. However, I am certainly not going to let them eat soy protein isolate (textured soy byproduct) foods, or big wads of gluten that are maximally processed into tasting like something meat-oid. If they are going the lifestyle, they have to GO the lifestyle as healthily as possible. As long as they live under my roof.
Yes. Hooray for Ruby Roth. I'm 64 and have been vegan for half my life. I know that few people become vegan or even vegetarian as adults. It's great to see such an articulate person connect with children to address both ethics and health. I appreciate her connection of rampant cruelty to humans with ignorance of its source. And with the growth of childhood obesity, hers is the answer to cutting health care costs.
This book seems like it would be great for teaching children about veganism. These issues are real and we should not hide our children in a bubble of ignorance about topics such as these. They need to know the truth so that they can make informed decisions as they get older.
ALSO – if you really want to question some controversial imagery that we feed to our kids... how about the horrifying /gruesome stories we read to them from the bible!
Over fifty years working in the Food Industry, finally I woke up, and now am a true Vegan (almost Raw) - for the reason why, just watch "Food, Inc." and "Forks over Knives"!
A lot of veggies (not all, for sure) are actually better for you and more nutritious, cooked.
Obviously, the means of cooking will determine loss of nutrients you do want to keep - boiled veggies are notoriously nutrition deficient. Steam them, or saute them, or roast them, as good alternatives.
Sugar and processed foods are much worse for your health than eating meat and dairy products. Real, raw (and raw includes a steak, eggs, etc etc) food is the answer to good health and eliminating sugar and processed food.
Got salmonella and E. Coli?
hahaha
To eat raw foods (not that I'm necessarily an advocate) you have to know your sources. You DON"T buy it at the supermarket, for instance.
Soyan your ignorance is showing again. You can get E. coli and salmonella from plants and fruits just as easily if not more so than from animal products. It comes from the immigrants defecating in the fields they work in. Go look at the CDC website and research it.
I guess Soyan missed out on the whole listeria outbreak from contaminated cantaloupes last year.
The militant vegan attitude does more to tune people out than it does to educate. My son has a nut allergy, which makes it pretty much impossible for him to get the protein he needs with a vegan or vegetarian diet (which would be our family choice). You can tell me all of the foods he could eat instead, but getting a six year old to eat fava beans and spinach is an exercise in futility. Instead, we've focused on teaching him about nutrition, how a variety of good, whole foods provide different essential nutrients. We have taught him to listen to his body to help him understand what he needs. The result is a child that loves broccoli, values a trip to the farmer's market like a treat, and eats no red meat, and very little dairy or eggs. He does, however, crave and enjoy protein sources, mostly fish and chicken. He knows when he needs it, too. Further, we do talk to him about the fact that the fish or the chicken was once a living being, and he will independently acknowledge respect for the animal, hoping it had a good life, before eating it.
IMO teaching children where their food comes from is a lot better than having a child baptized before they can form sentences, and forcing them to go to Church, where they are bred to be sheep that lack analytic thinking. What would you rather have healthy child or a fat one that says "God will take me when it's my time"
You atheist zealots are hilarious! What does this article have to do with God or religion... Nothing! So get off of your soap box.
Well said, Ryan, and very true! I've always had so much more confidence in the true faith of those that chose it as adults. Those that were never given a choice often just seem to be reciting.
my child does not eat meat, she is extremely healthy and has less illness than most of her friends. That said, your choice to raise your child as a meat eater is no different then mine to do the opposite. It is not the childs choice, when my daughter is older and she does choose for herself I will support that decision either way. Also, i am a faithful person and did not baptize my child, when she is older that will also be her choice. I can respect your choices for your children, why can't you respect those of others?
What?
I COULD live without sex, music, love, or toilet paper. Not gonna.
How do you know if someone is vegan? Give em a second, they'll tell you whether you care or not.
Just another lie about vegans.
I don't get what you just said. So much for my 132 IQ. lol
I have been vegan for 21 years. I believe it is a very healthy choice.
Well, Helen, it either is or it isn't. What does your belief have to do with it? If veganism isn't a healthy choice, then your belief doesn't make it so. Belief is something normally associated with religion. If you have empirical proof, then share it. Otherwise, your statement lumps you in with people who "believe" Elvis is still alive, and "believe" they were taken into a UFO and rudely probed. It's nice to have beliefs–but facts are better.
My Parent raised their childen on Vegetarian Diet... I raised my children on Vegan Diet... My children are raising their children on a Vegan Diet... This is not a new thing... Non meat diets can be traced back centuries... Also the people on my family tree have no history of cancer, diabetes, I myself haven't had a cold/flu in over 4 years... My children rarely ever got sick when they were growing up... never had dental problems... Little do you people know but the secret to long life and good health is found in a Vegan Diet... I still look as young as I did 25yrs ago and some of my friends look a "Hot Mess"... and they still eat meat and other processed food... Its really sad they have a hard time getting around and still will not change their ways...
So you claim a long family history of health, then try to claim that your diet is responsible for your purported health.
Fail.
i don't think you understood the comment.. she has a long history of both health and veganism.
You are right- a large percentage of the population of India is vegetarian- for centuries- they appear to grow up normally. Very yummy food too!!!
Frankly, I think veganism is unhealthy, period. Vegetarianism, done right, can be healthy and often is. (I knew a "starchitarian" - she wouldn't eat meat, but she wouldn't do veggies, either (0kay, corn chips and salsa, those she would do...) ... she bloated out to an unbelievable weight within a year and a half after changing her diet to eliminate meat...) But after a certain age, say around age 16 or so, especially if the child won't do real veggies - the children need to decide for themselves. One can only provide input for so long. I'd be far happier with children choosing to delete processed foodoid substances from their diet, including those faux "meats", "cheeses" and glutin-oid "meat" substitutes that seem to be part of some current vegan fads. Personally I prefer real veggies, and pastured meats, and wild-caught seafood, steering away from the processed lanes in the supermarket. But a thoughtful Vegetarian diet does indeed work.
Children cannot live on a Vegan diet. The nutritional needs of their bodies cannot be met.
There was a case a couple years ago about a couple that tried forcing their baby on a Vegan diet, drinking soy milk or rice milk. The baby died of malnutrition.
Vegans, please get over your squeamishness about eating animal products and accept the fact that you are meant to be an omnivore. Even breastfeeding by a Vegan mother is insufficient and your baby will die.
Have you seen bloated bellies of children in Africa from parents who think they are eating enough, but it is nutrient deficient cassava?
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/21/opinion/21planck.html
http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/baby-breastfed-by-vegan-mother-dies/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2036671/Vegan-couple-serve-life-sentences-starving-baby-death-extreme-diet.html
Your post is full of inaccuracies. The baby did not die because of a vegan diet. The baby died because the parents ignorantly fed him soy milk and apple juice instead of breast milk or soy formula. (And yes, human milk is considered "vegan"; it is the choice of most vegan mothers.) The children you are talking about in Africa suffer from kwashiorkor, an extreme protein deficiency. It has nothing to do with whether protein comes from plant or animal sources, just that the child's intake from any source is extremely deficient. Even the American Dietetic Association, a fairly conservative group, states that a well-planned vegan diet can be healthful at all stages of life. Do some research before you make any more wild claims.
Wait, isn't breast milk an animal product?
Vegans know that cow's milk is perfect for baby cows, and human milk is perfect for baby humans. Yes, or course, we humans happen to be animals, but there is no ethical issue involved because when we feed our babies our own milk, we are not taking advantage of another being whose milk was meant for her own offspring. (Nor are we causing another being to become pregnant time after time and the babies taken away from her to be used as veal calves or dairy cows.)
Look, I know that we like to think of ourselves as a species that exists outside of (and usually above) nature, but the fact is that we are a naturally-occurring species with natural precedents. We're primates. Primates are omnivores. We're supposed to eat meat. I can understand vegetarianism/veganism for moral reasons. Personally, I choose to buy meat/eggs/milk/etc that are produced by humanely-raised and humanely killed animals rather than cutting important nutrients out of my life completely, but if people want to go black-and-white then that is their choice. But can we please stop the arguments that eating meat is unhealthy or unnatural for us? It's not. Meat in moderation is healthy when it's part of a balanced diet. It always has been. That goes for children too.
i don't know that it is meat as much as it is the crap that they put in the feed. and, perhaps over-reliance on meat as the center of the meal, rather than as a small part of it; n
Just research – watch factory farm videos like meatvideo dot com and learn about your cooked flesh addiction at least. Many drs, dieticians, athletes and great historic figures supported it, look it up. We eat more meat than ever today too – all unncessary. Vegans live longer on average too.
There is no data to prove that vegans live longer. You have a source to site?
You have absolutely no evidence to support your claim. If humans had made the decision to live as vegans thousands of years ago they would no longer exist. It is man's ability to eat anything and everything that has allowed him to survive. Today we have the luxury of being able to go to supermarkets and buy our food and supplements so that we can choose to not eat meat and still be healthy. So, if you want to live without animal products... Good for you. However, I love to eat meat and will continue to kill animals and eat them as man has done since the beginning.
Just because human beings have been eating meat for thousands of years doesn't make it healthy. Thousands of years ago humans had a life expectancy of under 30 years. A lot of unhealthy eating can take place in 30 years without causing heart disease. Even if they did eat a lot of meat back then, most likely they didn't die of a heart attack. The leading cause of death in the U.S. is heart disease and meat (high in sat. fat and cholesterol) plays a large part in atherosclerosis (hardening of arteries).
I don't have kids of my own but if the first option was I do/would raise my children vegan, then I would have voted for that one. Instead I voted for option 2, but the poll doesn't take into account the fact that some people may want children one day, plan to raise them as vegans, but just doesn't yet have kids!
I clicked on the Bankruptcy article and it brought me here.
thank you for saving me the post. is that the only way to get me to read about veganism?
Veganism and vegetarianism are First World lifestyles. Not a criticism, just reporting the fact.
Humans are not built to live solely on vegetables–our gut is not big enough. Yes, you can patch together some semblance of protein and nutrition, but consider the caveman: 30,000 years ago (and prior) humans ate meat and survived. They ate berries and fruits, too. We are, as stated above, omnivores.
I don't agree with kids drinking milk; humans are the only creatures who drink milk beyond infancy. It's unnecessary and there are plenty of ways to get calcium besides drinking milk.
Thank goodness, someone else understands the biology of digestive systems. Herbivores either have multiple stomachs or extremely long digestive systems. Our digestive systems is more like that of a carnivore than an herbivore.
long digestive systems are a feature of herbivores, not carnivores
Sorry Rick, but we are omnivores. The length of the digestive system (and humans are still shorter in comparison to herbivores) is only one form of comparison in anatomy and physiology. There are physiological differences as well as anatomical differences. For instance, the gall bladder is designed to digest fats. Herbivores do not have gallbladders, yet people do. Digestive enzymes differ between the species. I have taught Human Anatomy and Physiology and Comparative Mammalian ecology, but I am certain that won't matter to some. Although you may choose not to, you are certainly designed to consume meats.
WhatNow: I am not disputing your basic point that man are omnivores
Well, to be fair, vegans don't live solely on vegetables. Fruits, vegetables, grains, nuts, seeds, legumes... Now that we have a greater variety of cultivated seeds and grains it's entirely possible to get enough complete protein without eating meat.
Is meat more efficient? Yes.
We do not need meat to get sufficient nutrition. There is plenty of protein in beans and nuts, for example.
Key word here is "sufficient". "Sufficient" is not the same as "optimal". The nutrition guidelines set by the FDA are for the MINIMUM requirements needed to function.
Nina – While India is improving it is not yet considered a first world country. Almost 50% of the population is vegetarian and the bulk of Hindus have been vegetarian for more than six thousand years. You also fail to understand the human digestive system as well. I do agree that being vegan is a newer choice in diet that may or may not have repercussions.
The human digestive tract is actually quite long, more like that of a herbivore than a carnivore.
Carnivores are able to eat something and then process it out of their bodies at a faster rate than herbivores.
Eating meat contributes to a greater risk of suffering from a wide array of illnesses, including heart disease and cancer, huge killers of people in the Western world.
If we were structured as carnivores, we might be able to avoid some of these negative effects.
If you want to put fat-filled sh** down your throat, be my guest. However, allow others to decide what they want to do.
We are omnivores, not carnivores or herbivores. We have a near identicle GI tract as pigs, another omnivore.
You are an omnivore.
The ratio of small : large intestine is much more relevant than actual length. If you'd studied the digestive tracts of herbivores, you'd find that they have very, very short small intestines and very long large intestines. The opposite is true in carnivores–longer small intestine, short large intestine.
The small intestines of humans are longer than their large intestines. Small intestines break down proteins, fats and starches, while the large intestine handles the roughage. Our saliva is as acidic as that of a carnivore (~7.5), while an herbivores is very alkalized at ~8.5. This is because acidic saliva would kill the friendly bacteria which breaks down plant matter in the rumen (also another organ we do not possess).
"but consider the caveman: 30,000 years ago (and prior) humans ate meat and survived."
yeah, till about 30
also, they were not getting their meat from the local wal mart
Those that choose to believe that eating meat is a requirment to survival can rarely be convinced otherwise. I choose not to eat meat, right or wrong I am not asking others to do the same... I am comfortable with my choice, if they were they wouldn't fight so hard to convince others they are right.
Rick you make a valid point, one I'm afraid that will be ignored.
Stan: I feel the same. I have been a veggie for over 30 years, and I do not attempt to change other's diets. I do not preach, and I am not a member of PETA (truly, i think they are fanatics). I am comfortable with my dietary choice. To me, it is about fueling the body. I do find it ironic that the folks who gave me so much grief about becoming a veggie died as a result of their diets.
Great comment.
India = first world?
India = Overpopulated, borderline starvation
SImple biology and scientific facts show humans are Ominvore's and there has never been a vegan/vegetarian culture in the millions of years of history of the earth and our hunter-gatherer ancestors. I applaud the compassion and heart of the V's regarding the treatment of animals, but they are throwing out the baby with the bath water and are completely misguided about basic nutrition. It is especially damaging to young children and expectant mothers to miss out on the nutritional benefits of animal products, especially essential amino acids, essential fatty acids and fat soluble vitamins A, D, E and K, not to mention the B vitamin and iron deficiencies. You have to eat animal products to obtain these basic building blocks to grow and develop your body properly. Read Weston A. Prices' book Nutrition and Physical Degeneration. It's all the education you will ever need about food.
David, I haven't read that book but I'm a little surprised by some of the statements you've made.
There are, in fact, combinations of fruits and vegetables, seeds, nuts and grains that can pretty much give you all those essential nutrients. It's more difficult to get them in the quantites you need to stay healthy...yes. And I agree that raising a young child vegan is more difficult than raising it vegetarian. But I don't know that it's impossible for a parent who has fully researched which foods and in what amounts need to be consumed.
Ally, why would you be "surprised by any of the statements I made." I stated nothing inflammatory or factually incorrect.
Secondly, you said, "There are, in fact, combinations of fruits and vegetables, seeds, nuts and grains that can pretty much give you all those essential nutrients. It's more difficult to get them in the quantites you need to stay healthy."
The latter part of you sentence supports my assertion that it's "more difficult to stay healthy as a vegetarian." Again, there are many nutritional short comings and I've never understood the vegetarian rejection of animal products and then the determined focus to eat a diet that mimics or strives to make up for that rejection and short fall of natural sources of complete amino acids/protein/EFA's/fat soluble vitamins A,D,E,K B12 etc.... Why not just eat naturally like the Omnivore that you are?
If you get a chance, read WAP's book, Nutrition and Physical Degeneration. It's a fascinating book from the 1920's-1930's that's part travelogue, history, anthropology and nutrition. The hundreds of pictures are worth the price of the book. You will learn about the ancient wisdom passed from generation to generation for all healthy tribes to thrive on an omnivorous diet. Weston Price went looking for "healthy indigenous peoples", and to his surprise found no vegetarian tribes. Once the tribes were moved on to imperial reservations and were forced into slavery/servitude and forced to eat a western diet of processed food, their health deteriorated rapidly and significantly. The book isn't about ideology or opinion. It's a search for optimum health.
Weston A Price was a dentist who did some ethnographic studies, with no nutritional education, and who made his grand pronouncements on human nutrition with no hard science to back it up, just anecdotal observations. I'm sorry, but he simply was not an authority on the subject. The American Dietetic Association, which is made up of nutrition professionals (who therefore ARE authorities on the subject,) determined that properly planned vegetarian and vegan diets are nutritionally sufficient for all life stages, including infancy, pregnancy and lactation. Even omnivorous parents have to do some "proper planning" to ensure that their growing children are getting what they need; meat doesn't have magic in it.
Kay, that's the standard pat answer I've seen many times before from vegan/vegetarian websites regarding discrediting the Dentist Dr Weston A. Price and the Price Pottenger Foundation. Your whole argument is for not as soon as you you mention "The American Dietetic Association, which is made up of nutrition professionals (who therefore ARE authorities on the subject,)" I don't submit to their authority. I bet you've actually never read the WAP's book have you?
These ADA jokers are they same people who make up the Dietary guidelines for Americans and the Food Pyramid and are responsible for rapidly making the country sick and sicker with double and triple the diabesity rates in the last 30-40 years following the SAD. I repeat, I don't subscribe to the ADA's AUTHORITY. If you do any research on the ADA and the people who actually sit on the committee, you will find they don't agree with their own recommendations and have many conflicts of interest based on who is funding their academic careers and institutions (i.e, the big food corporations producing the majority of the worlds processed food stuffs).
The ADA is a Joke and I don't buy your "nutritionally sufficient" statement. Show me one Biology book that shows humans are Herbivores. You can't physically eat enough vegetables to make up for the lack of nutrition found in animal products in your diet. Can't. Be. Done. Period.
Wow, what a rare occasion, a sensible reply in a forum! Keep up the good work.
David – I am guessing you do not recognize the difference between vegan and vegetarian. If you are interested in a culture that is vegetarian for thousands of years please refer to India. Almost 50% of their citizens are vegetarian. Being vegan on the other hand is a first world choice.
I bet ANY of them would eat a chicken or a pig, at the drop of a hat.
What? it's against their religion. And not all Indians live in poverty if that is what you are getting at.
Actually the Janitor faith is vegan, and most of them don't live in the first world. Actually nina is unaware that most non first world countries have more than 75% vegetarian diets.
Jani faith is what that is supposed to say. I hat auto correct.
You are wrong. There is not a single country in the world that reports more than a 42% vegetarianism population. The highest is India and they report 20% – 42%.
I think she was talking about individual diets not the population, so 75% of their diet in not meat
I clearly understand the difference between veganism and vegetarianism, and you are correct in that it is a choice, not necessarily the best choice. I'm also talking about Ominvore's and millions of years of evolution, not thousands of years, a mere drop in the bucket respectively (less then 1%) and a small sample size in relation to the history of humankind. I'm also interested in what's optimum nutrition, not just "nutritionally sufficient", big, big difference. My understanding is that vegetarianism in the south of India is the result of their religious ideology, and may be driven today more by poverty and over population than choice. It's also my understanding that diabetes, obesity, heart disease and cancer rates are all higher in the south of India as compared to the north as well. I have traveled to India and was not impressed with the soft skinny fat indigenous peoples, anymore than the large numbers of obese Americans eating the Standard American Diet (SAD).
Again, I'll stick by my earlier assertions regarding a complete essential amino acid profile from animal protein sources and all EFA's and fat soluble vitamins etc..... 4 oz of liver equals approximately 5 lbs of fruits and veggies. You can imagine which amount is easier to digest, cheaper and easier to prepare and consume. Trust me, I like my fruit and veggies, I just enjoy them with a grass fed steak as well. I live on a farm and we raise our own, so there are no animal cruelty issues to deal with.
Looking at the big picture and having ready just a few good books on anthropology, there are numerous tribal areas in high North and South Latitudes and high altitude climates that thrived on less plants and more animals as humans migrated farther north and south away from the equator into colder climates. Clearly we are able to adapt to a wide range of macro nutrient profiles, way beyond a restrictive nutritionally sub-par herbivorous rabbit food diet. In fact it was that ability that allowed us to thrive and literally walk around the world in the middle of a series of ice ages. We know for a fact, early man didn't dominate and populate the earth eating only vegetables.
I work at the hospital operating rooms and everyday I see the likes of you, man in their fifties and up – obese, overweight or not, in the cardiac unit lying on a stretcher awaiting their 6 hour surgery. I think to myself what they must have said in the past to and about vegans exactly what you just wrote here. Looking at their regretful and anxious facial expression while they wait for their ohearts surgery, I know they wish they had been a bit open-minded about giving up on meat/dairy/eggs. Good luck David.
Soyan, what a nasty response. I am sure that vegans also get I'll and end in the hospital.
Dirk, my comment may be too true for your liking. If these patients were more openminded about a plant based diet, they truly might not need their hearts opened up for them like that. A vegan diet has been known to successfully reverse heart diseases, diabetes, and other autoimmune diseases. Check out the work of the team at the Cleveland clinic. Clinton is a good example.
Don't forget that heart diseases, colon/breast/prostate cancers have come to make it to the top as what can kill ourselves and our loved ones.. The animals we so merciless and copiously kill and eat are in turn killing us because a diet so full of artery clogging cholesterol and saturated fat, animal proteins, dioxins/pcb/hca.... is never meant for us. Changes are desparately needed and once again, this book and many others like it that speak the truth will help drive changes and perhaps allow humans to evolve to be a more compassionate, enlightened, and healthy species.
Weston Price advocates some practices, like drinking raw milk, that are dangerous and irresponsible. I don't believe a thing he says.
No idea why this appeared here. I was responding to Reidelabarajr, about a third of the way through the comments, who was asking what tofu is ind whether it contains protein.
To answer your question, it's made from soybeans and is an excellent source of protein.
Not when compared to chicken. 100 calories less per serving and a whole lot less protein. Whats the point of eating that sponge...
I can't stand tofu. You can also get plenty of protein from a combo of vegetables and things like quinoa; which is a seed.
I eat meat. It taste good. I have always been open with my kids since they were very litle (currently 7 & 10) where meat comes from and that the animal has to die for us to eat the meat. I believe educating our children will allow them to make up their own minds as their minds mature. To force a lifestyle on children or misinform of what is reality should not be acceptable. I personlly support all individual decisions as long as the feeling is mutual. I will continue to eat meat and the products of animals since that is te desicion I have made. I welcome my children to make their own informed decisions as they grow. I will support whatever that myay be.
Good for you but you seem to be missing the point, Eater. The question is not whether animals die or not. I think the case is on animal cruelty. Do you even know or tell your children meat/dairy/eggs come from sentient beings who have been grossly mistreated in their entire lives? Read Eating Animals by Jonathan Safran Foer. Visit the website of the Humane Society to learn more, please.
No. I think you're missing the point... Being omnivores has allowed humans to survive for thousands of years. There is no humane way to kill anything that is alive. I agree that the animals don't need to be mistreated prior to butchering them for food, but at the end of the day given that they are destined to be eaten it really doesn't matter.
I think the fact you don't care how an animal is treated before you eat it is disturbing, and a far larger issue then whether one should eat it at all.
Soyan, I'm almost 50 years old, 5' 10" and 160 lbs. with no history of heart disease in my family. My job as a Captain for the largest commercial airline in the world requires a medical exam and EKG every six months. I pass with flying colors and my primary physician is also a cardiologist. Every time I get my blood work done he comments, "whatever your doing, keep doing, because my numbers are excellent, as good as it gets, you may die from something, but in your case, it won't be heart disease." My point is, besides your B.S. comments, natural selection created our DNA over millions of years and it's based on an Omnivorous diet, not a vegetarian diet. If you know anything about epigenetics, anthropolgy and biology you wouldn't make such stupid comments regarding my health. Luck has nothing to do with it, it's simple biology and I sleep well at night with no guilt or trepidation knowing I eat a whole foods diet of meat, plants and fruits like my ancestors have for millions of years. I would match my diet with yours or anyone out there and win hands down. It you would like to compare your blood profile with mine, game on. There is no evidence whatsoever that a vegetarian diet is more healthful at all....in fact the evidence shows that low fat diets end up with higher levels of cancer and other cause mortality.
reading books is all sorts of awesome, but if you want to know about where your food comes from, maybe you should go make friends with a cow. In person.
That is a respectful response. My family are meat eaters and vegaterians and we respect each others decisions to make their own choices
I enjoy meat. I grew up on farms. I started working in restaurants at 10 years old and can create meat based dishes as amazing as most top chefs. I mostly eat my food following the vegan lifestyle...yet I wear leather shoes and belts. I choose to eat vegan type foods because of two things: 1) it is healthier (research it yourself); and 2) I am talented and dedicated enough to make this vegan food flavorful to the point that my omniverous friends love it. I do have compassion for animals; yet I understand the cycle of life. I have hunted for food in the past (no more). I have learned to farm from organic processes. I try to make educated purchases so that I am using mostly organic produce, or purchasing meat products which are more "kind" to the animals while they are alive. I do not preach my beliefs to others (and have not in this post). I do not care what other people choose to eat. If I am preparing the food, I can satisfy anyone's taste without judgment. I have no right to question anyone's beliefs or food practices. I practice compassion toward people as well as animals. Those are my beliefs. Cheers and best health to everyone else.
....oh, and I do plan to raise my children as vegans. If they choose to eat animal products as they age, that is fine with me. I still do from time to time. But I have proven to myself that this lifestyle does work and is healthy. I have personally benefitted from discussing these practices with my doctor, nutritionists and trainers. It takes more work, but it is worth it to me. It's not for everyone. But it is a fun adventure learning how to do it correctly. I do not like activists of any kind...especially when they preach "at" me or consider themselves better people than me.
That sounds perfectly reasonable. When I was born my parents raised me according to their lifestyle. It was classic meat and potatoes meals. That's what I ate because that's what they bought and cooked. As I got older I was allowed to make requests. And my ideas were incorporated into the menus.
Why should it be any different in a household that's already vegan?
I know a couple people who were vegetarian since birth and they could not fathom eating meat! Grosses them out to no end.
Good comment.
the most intelligent response yet!
Andy, one post after another you prove that YOU ARE an idiot... May be the lack of nutrients YOU'RE missing in the truncated food chain you have... And that's all I have to say....
Completely incorrect. In fact, breastfeeding alligns completely with the beliefs of vegans. Please see my response below. Cheers.
The concept of vegetarianism is "to show mercy to animals by not eating (hurting) them". Many of my "carnivore" friends ask me -" you say you are a vegetarian. Then how come a. you drink milk and b. eat plants? ". My answer – "a. you don't hurt a cow by drinking its milk and b. plants are not alive in the animal sense. They lack the central nervous system that senses pain ."
That is where Veganism differs from Vegetarianism. Veganism is about food choice. Vegetarianism is a life style choice; not to hurt anyone or anything except for self defense.
But you do harm cows by supporting the dairy industry. Dairy cows have to reproduce regularly in order to keep up milk production. Their daughters follow them into milk production, but what do you think becomes of the male calves? The dairy industry directly supports the veal industry. And spent dairy cows go to slaughter when their milk production no longer justifies the cost of feeding them. There's no happy old-age farm for used up dairy cattle. The egg industry is the same; even United Poultry Concerns, the egg industry representative, will tell you that 200,000,000 male chicks are killed every year in the US alone, as soon as they are sexed because laying breeds don't produce enough meat to justify feeding these birds to maturity. I would argue that vegetarianism can absolutely be a lifestyle choice (but is far more often merely a dietary one,) but that veganism is by definition a lifestyle. We are not merely concerned with not killing animals for food. Ethical vegans don't wear animals either, or use products made with animal by-products or animal testing.
Well, technically, while drinking milk doesn't hurt animals, the production of that milk does. In order for dairy cows to lactate, they had to have given birth. When they give birth, female offspring become dairy cows, male offspring become veal cows. Veal cows are confined in small crates their entire lives and not allowed to develop muscle (it ruins the veal supposedly). Dairy cattle aren't treated all that humanely in many cases (milking machines cause damage to cows to the point where chunks of "meat" can be found in milk prior to processing.
If you love animals so much...why do you keep eating all their food?
This is why I eat pastured meats and eggs. Veganism doesn't work for everyone.
Dear vegans and vegetarians,
Please stop eating all of our food.
Sincerely,
Aminals
Do vegans breast feed their babies?
technically they can't. if they go by their beliefs.
That's utter nonsense. Ethical veganism seeks to reduce the suffering and exploitation of animals as much as possible. CHOOSING to nurse one's offspring is neither suffering nor exploitation.
Yes, and probably at a much higher rate and for longer than the general population. Vegans breastfeed because it does not utilize the milk of another species, and because it's the healthiest way to feed babies! Just as cow milk is the perfect food for baby cows, human milk is best for baby humans.
Breast milk is also very high in saturated fat, with almost the same fat profile as bacon.....hmmm.. Ok to feed my kid this for the first two or three years of his/her life, but then all of a sudden, it's not OK to feed them "animal products?" Last I checked, females are definitely animals.
does a bear s*** in the woods
I do not think kids are to young to learn or lead a vegan lifestyle. Early on we instill our moral and religious values in our children why not our nutritional values? I agree with raising your child vegan if you are a vegan parent. If the child grows up and decides this is not for them there is no reason not to change. I believe if you are a vegan parent it is very important early on to teach why you live this lifestyle. Through education and books like this children can become more aware of their health and wellness. I believe in educating and providing as mush credible research as possible to form your own decision. Congratulations on the book. I think it is great that the awareness is being brought to the next generation.
Meat is Murder.
But it's so damn yummy so I'm fine with being the Ted Bundy of the Animal Kingdom.
Ted Bundy raped and murdered, he didn't eat. He wasn't a cannibal like Dahmer. So are you saying that you do that to your food, EWWWWWW!!!
Lmao!
are you raping the animals before you murder them or after?
Meat is Medicine. I'm also a memeber of PETA, People Eating Tasty Animals that is. HA, HA, LOL. When you go vegan it leaves more bacon for me, yummmm
Pete, you need to research factory farms. It's more that just a "little confinement." The factory farm industry has found numerous ways to increase their profits - all the the cost of the animals' well-being, along with our health and the health of the environment. And most people who buy meat get it at the grocery store, and that meat comes from the factory-farmed environment.
Local, small farms can be different, definitely. But please, don't ever think that large-scale farms are at all interested in animal health and welfare, unless it's to turn them into production machines in the most unnatural ways possible.
Please, please research this ... it'll open your eyes.
Nor should they be. those farms sole purpose is to create food. The conditions are more than adequate for that purpose. The animals do not sit in their poop, as the vegans claim. The Truth be told they are cleaned quite frequently to keep them strong for the purpose they were intended for. Think of it this way, it is like a vegetable garden you plant lots together to get a good harvest. Same thing with the animals. Both are onlth there to serve a purpose for man, FOOD.
TwM, you are so wrong. These animals are subject to tremendously confined/cruel conditions. It's not "just vegans" saying this - check out the Humane Society of the United States, ASPA, Farm Sanctuary, and articles about it in major newspapers (Time, New York Times), the work of Karen Dawn, and the work of so many others. And yes, the dreaded PETA. Open your eyes ... and maybe your heart will open too.
Done that. They mention a few farms that need to be cleaned up. NOT ALL of them. Mentioning PETA is hurting your case, those people are complete whakc jobs who have HURT ANIMALS just so they can video the "abuse" and lie about it. See I do have a heart, but I also realize that these farm animals are only in existence to feed those of us who eat meat. If you think about it in the proper light the treatment should not matter, they are merely brought into being to be food they are not going to be a pet, they are not going to have a long life. I have quite a few friends(15) that are or have been vegetarians or vegans, they are ALWAYS a problem when they visit us or we visit with them. They have relatively nothing that my family would consider food available and ALWAYS insist we try their tasteless, imitation foods. Which is another peeve of mine, why do you guys need to have Imitation hamburgers? Just call them meatless patties or something. Now on the flip side, we make available vegetables and NEVER impose our steaks. burgers etc on them. I even have a seperate charcoal grill that is only used to cook their products, you know they can't use my good grill because meat has been cooked upon it. Then they make faces and comments about the steak or burger we are eating but god forbid we make a comment about their less than appealing food. One friend of my wife went so far as to cry to my kids that they were eating Bambi one time when I served venison. Your side plays hardball, so expect some hard hits back.
TwM, I'm surprised that you seem to have a set of rude friends.
I have several vegetarian and vegan friends. I do always try to have something at a dinner they can have, but they certainly don't expect me to. Also, I'll suggest that if a vegan has a non-vegan over for dinner there's really no reason for them to have to make a meat-filled meal. Because their's is the more restrictive diet. ANything they would normally make would still fall within the realm of your diet.
TwM which of the sites recommended to you suggests that "only a few farms" have problems???
I never expect a special meal on my behalf, you need new friends. I eat what I want from what is served. I often make a meal out of side dishes. I am not a vegan, I eat butter, eggs (purchased from free run, organic local farm that can be visited and has nothing to hide), but when my vegan friends come over I advise them what does and does not contain animal products, they can choose to eat it or not
TwM,
Here's a good start for you:
http://www.farmsanctuary.org/issues/factoryfarming/
TwM, just because an animal isn't a pet, doesn't mean it shouldn't be treated compassionately. PETA has its moments, I agree, but all in all, they're a good advocate for animals and we wouldn't know as much as we do without them. Re your vegan friends ... if they're that offensive, why are you hanging out with them? I mean, truly, they ARE being rude and you have a right to ask them to just bring their own eats and their own grill. Not every vegan is like that.
TWm, I'm not sure what you mean by "my (your) side plays hardball," since I'm not a vegan, LOL. But I think vegans eat the imitation burgers for both the social aspect (they can be eating the same thing as others), and for variety. Also, those types of food are a form of protein, just like you might eat lasagna or a casserole that also has meat in it. For me, I don't eat hot dogs and I used to haul the fake dogs just so people wouldn't give me a hard time about not eating hot dogs ... I could blend in without being attacked by people who either eat meat or love hot dogs :). So as a mostly vegetarian, I try to keep quiet about it at the dinner table, but am often attacked or challenged ... and I'm just trying to enjoy my meal. :)
hear hear! I'll eat my meal you eat yours, what exactly is the problem?
Factory farms get paid based on the weight of the animal. If you mistreat the animal and cause stress, they sh!t their brains out, quit eating and loose weight. Every farm I've been on, (my wife worked on the kill floor of a cattle slaughterhouse for years) they go to great lengths to treat the animals gently so as not to cause any stress or undo weight loss...That is how they make their money.
Vegans are an abomination in the eyes of the Lord.
Good of you to speak for the Lord, Lee Ann, while you practice your Christian tolerance at the same time.
Oh please, Christianity is just bronze aged Jewish Mythology, the same as Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy. No facts to back it up, hey it's an ideology just like vegetarianism. It's meant to dumb down and control the masses by reducing their testosterone levels. The Opiate of the masses according to Marx.
Freak.
Speaking for god, eh Lynn Ann?
Nothing like a littlle blasphemy on a Friday
Well Lynn Ann may be out of line and actually most of us Christians are not intolerant. However, the good Lord did give us molars for mulching veggies etc, and canines for tearing meat and incisors for cutting both. Or for non-believers humans developed these teeth through evolution. So, why don't we all just enjoy what we want to eat in a healthy balanced way? Then maybe there will be more for all, including the less fortunate.
Share and be nice everyone.
Do Christian believe in the compassionate and kind living, and treating others as they want to be treated? Yes, but only so long as they can enjoy their meat/dairy/eggs. Christians I know show themselves to be just hypocrites.
Soyan
You get more flies with Honey... I admire your passion, but your approach may push people away rather then get them to see your side
Floyd, I have three points to make concerning your statement. First, humans are primarily herbivores. On countless anatomical comparisons, humans align with herbivores and not carnivores (http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/09/are-humans-carnivores-or-herbivores-2/). Secondly, Plant based diets provide MORE food for everyone, because it takes much more grains and water to create the meat (http://www.consumercide.com/js/index.php/food-supply/39-necessarily-vegetarian/379-how-to-win-an-argument-with-a-meat-eater). Thirdly, Did you ever question why Catholics (and some Christians) abstain from eating meat on Fridays during Lent. Interesting, that it is a form of sacrifice, (http://www.examiner.com/article/why-catholics-don-t-eat-meat-on-fridays).
The lord also gave us bodies that are hard wired for cannabinoids
i think kids should learn about veganism so they can decide if they want to take that step in life.
Most children don't choose to eat meat, it's what their parents choose for them. Just like vegans choose to not give their child meat. Just because the norm in society is to give meat/dairy to kids doesn't mean it's any less of a choice that is being imposed on them. Certainly, when children grow up they should be able to make their own choices.
Most children choose to eat sugar...and?
Good point, I don't see any vegan advocating consumption of sugar and it meets all of their requirements, yet high quanities are bad for you.
I have a cousin who "decided" to be a vegan from the age of 4 after some nut convinced him he was helping to murder little critters. His parents, having left their brains open to rot in the air for too long, let him do it. As a result, his kid sister is now, taller, a healthy weight, and grew up normally. He, however, is 5'4, anemic, scrawny, cannot gain weight, has no strength and curses his parents for letting him choose vegan so early, before he could understand the consequences to his actions. He believes you should not be allowed to make that choice until you are 16, when you can better understand the possible repercussions. Vegans are crazy stupid people, and should be classified as a mental condition. They refuse to eat anything that has TOUCHED a living animal (but only the ones with eyes, mind you, or who can feel pain). Vegetarianism is completely valid choice, but refusing food based on a belief is nuts. I used to sell health food at the now defunct wild oats market. These people are crazy, and aught to be treated as such.
Then you're not Buddhist? Duh.
"Refusing to touch food based on belief is nuts." Are you saying Jewish people keeping kosher are nuts? Also, I sure am glad or I hope I didn't patronize your store ... great attitude toward your customers!
It sounds like you've encountered an extreme case. If the child was scared then he wasn't given all of the information. And it sounds like his parents didn't research the things they should have to ensure such a young child was getting the proper nutrition. It can be done, although it's tough with such a young child. And if the parent's chose to let him follow a vegan lifestyle then it's their responsibility to ensure he's following the diet correctly.
A parent should not allow a child to make a choice at that age that they are not willing to research at least enough to give proper nutrition to their child.
It is always the same with these posts and comments. People who benefit from the status quo (ranchers, animal food producers) become hyper-defensive and go on attack mode because of obvious self interest. It becomes not a debate on the topic but people hurling insults and spreading lies as though this will help their cause... I guess people make their own choice what they want to do given the facts on their animal food sources which is 95-99% from factory farms and how much damage it is doing to the animals, the environment and human health. It is my hope that with more reading material such as this new book and many others that help to raise awarness of the issues and educate the public on more sustainable and compassionate food choices, our world will become a better place not just for the animals, but ultimately for the survival of mankind.
I agree that many factory farms mistreat their animals. This led me to buy locally produced meat from a family farm, which I found to be not only of better quality but allows me to support a local business as well. Since I buy in bulk and freeze the meat it turns out to be a little cheaper than constantly buying from the grocery store or butcher. In terms of health, for me a balanced diet and healthy lifestyle (exercise, etc) is the key.
When you "buy locally", do you know where the animals were slaughtered? Does the "family farm" slaughter their own animals? What about dairy and eggs? A "balanced diet" can be a diet with all plant groups: fruits vegetables nuts seeds grains, preferably all whole foods instead of processed food in boxes or colorful packaging. Just thought to point that out. There are many excellent vegan nutritionists who give talks that can be found on YouTube.
I do in fact know where the animals are slaughtered. The farm I get my meat from slaughters its own animals, and I have seen the process first hand (mostly because I was curious about how it is done). I also buy local eggs, and, until recently, got milk from a local dairy farm. The dairy no longer sells privately, so I've been getting my milk from the grocery store. I never said anything about buying "processed food in boxes or colorful packaging," (although, I do love my oreo cookies) so I'm not really sure why you would even make that comment. I am lucky to be able to get local products where I live because not everyone has the same opportunities. If you want to eat a vegan diet and are healthy, I think that is great, but it is possible to be healthy and responsible while eating a mixed diet.
Soyan, your posts are thoughtful and I've learned a lot from reading them. Unfortunately, the average American is only slowly becoming aware of the cruelty and disease of mass farming and its harmful effects.
Also, I go to my local mall and see people eating - with their children - fast food burgers on white bread, fries, and sugary drinks and wonder if these are some of the same people posting insults about vegans. It's sad that we can't have a courteous discussion without people feeling threatened and slinging insults. Ugh. And we think animals are beneath us. Look at our behavior!
The farms are no where near as bad as your group portrays them to be. The truth be told vegans need to buy artificial supplements to remain healthy. Vegans are supposed to be against the hormones injected and the treatment of animal ingeneral but have to ingest various chemicals to remain healthy. Much rather eat a nice juicy steak and skip the pills. Now in regards to the humane part of their flawed arguement if you are against the cruelty to animals and deplore the farms then how do they eat? it has now been proven that plants have "feelings' and can be hurt. Uh oh, might as well just die off now right?
TwM - "your group," what exactly does that mean? See my post above. Animal advocates come in all shapes and sizes - they're journalists, scientists, researchers, legislators, vegans, meat-eaters, vegetarians, farmers ... and the list goes on. The argument, which has been dis-proven, that plants have feelings is such a stale one. I wonder why you cling so stubbornly to, and are so, narrow in your viewpoint? What are you afraid of? Learning something you might not like?
You are losing credibility when you consistently post comments that aren't even half true! "Vegans have to ingest chemicals to remain healthy?" What chemicals are these exactly? Also, the pharmacy is full of supplements of all kinds, with human health declining and people mostly confused about why they get all these degenerative diseases at an alarming rate. But I am willing to bet that most of the loyal customers looking to these remedies to magically take their diet related health issue away aren't vegans.
not sure what "chemicals" you are talking about. Do you mean vitamins?
Thanks for your thought provoking comments.
Soyan, I've read several of your posts and I wanted to point out that there is a growing group of people out there who are very aware of the factory farms and the harm they do to animals. We work to be educated on both sides of the issue. And the reality is that one can be healthy on a vegan diet and one can be healthy on an omnivorous diet. If they follow the healthy diets they're doing it right.
I naturally eat about 75% vegetarian. The meat I do eat I'm increasingly getting from local, family owned farms and hunting. I also buy some meat and dairy from the grocery store. Some of which I'm sure is from factory farms. But really, I choose to spend my time and money on issues that I feel are more important than how my food is treated.
I've put forth an effort to have a balanced, healthy diet. I understand that you've decided how your food is treated is very important in your life. I respect that and I just hope you can respect that not all people value the same issues at the same levels. It doesn't mean we're uneducated on the subject and we're not beneath people who choose a different diet.
You need to read the book The Vegetarian Myth by Lierre Keith. It completely blows up your vegan philosophy and the complete destruction of the environment to plant monocrops thereby destroying complete ecosystems to satisfy the grain producers and their customers. I grew up on a farm and clearly remember the coyotes following the tractors around the field to eat all the animals we killed while planting and harvests wheat, oats, alfalfa, etc......I think your eyes must be brown Soyan, which indicates what your full of.
The Swiss and German nutritional commissions, both countries with some of the healthiest individuals in the world, published in 2011 that they do not recommend a vegan diet for children, pregnant women or the elderly.
Here's an opinion from an expert:
Dr. Amy Lanou, nutrition director of the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine ... wrote that vegan diets are "not only safe for babies; they're healthier than ones based on animal products."
Yes, I know of that opinion. Yet, I still wish to consider research and advice from those countries where people are actually healthy and long-lived. However, I strongly believe we should all be able to choose but encourage knowledge in choice.
You're right. Knowledge in choice is a good thing. It's good to research extremely carefully when you're talking about anybody's health, especially children's. This is all difficult because we have experts on both sides of the fence.
Please be aware that the "Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine" is an animal rights advocacy group, not some wise cadre of impartial clinicians who have reached their conclusions in an unbiased and scientific manner; of course this is going to be their anthropomorphism-driven knee jerk response. Not surprisingly, PETA and HSUS (no relation to the REAL Humane Society BTW) will spin you exactly the same emotive fairy tale.
The PCRM is a joke, it's a vegan front. Full of bullsh!t.....
Vegans are like cultists. All they ever talk about is what they eat. All they ever talk about is what YOU eat. They are full of guilt for their own omnivorous evolutionary biology. I never met one vegan who wasn't obsessed with food.
not accurate.
That's a really unfair and inaccurate portrait of vegans. I'm sure you know many, many vegans, correct? And you discuss this with them with an open mind and heart, correct?
Stop eating meat and dairy, stop wearing leather and fur then see where 90% of every conversation you have ends up going. I get absolutely sick and tired of talking about why I'm vegan or what a vegan is. It's everyone... and I do mean EVERYONE else around me who steers the conversation in that direction. Pizza parties after work, coffee (creamer) at work, lunch with family/friends/co-workers, birthday parties for kids and/or adults, doughnuts at the coffee machine, – I can't escape being around food every single day with other people and every single day someone wants to ask me why I'm not eating (fill in the blank).
You made the choice to eat that way, now you're complaining about the consequences of doing something outside the norm? Cryyyyyyy :'(
Nothing like painting people with a broad brush there, checi
Checi is spot on accurate. Most every vegan I know acts as though they are on a 24/7 membership drive.
Look, if you want to be vegan, that's fine. You do your thing, I'll do mine, but do NOT ever try to preach to me about a choice I make that is inherently personal.
No one is trying to preach to you. I guess you made a personal choice to read these commets. Nobody is forcing you to.
I've had similar experience. I've been scolded by my choices by vegans, and urged to "give it a try," and so on any number of times. I've cut one person out of my social circle because she wouldn't shut up about how "horrible" many of my choices were.
Just because you don't want to believe vegans can be rude and pushy doesn't mean they aren't. And you don't know what Philip's experience is, so it seems pretty arrogant to (not in so many words) call him a liar.
You know your so called "personal choice" may not be as original as you think it is. Who told you what to eat when you were young? I imagine your parents, your parrnts' parents, school, church, tv, society in general right? Where do you think those people got their information from. Probably the same sources as you. Your "personal choice" could well be the unexamined choice rather. If the information fed to us were so true, why aren't we healthier than we are now? Have you asked yourselves that?
Not only do we get brainwashed on what to eat for optimal health, the government are buying into that, our tax dollars are helping subsidize or otherwise fund what vegans and non-vegans like don't care to support – intensive confinement and multiation of billions of farm animals, inhumane animal raising, slaughtering, testing practice, destruction of the environment, human health risks and all other vices known to be related to factory farms where 95-99% of the meat/dairy/eggs we eat come from. Also have you noticed that everywhere you go and everyday you look, someone is eating/selling/talking about/making some kind of animal food? Taking all things into perspective, if vegans try to make their voices heard or feel the need to advocate for a few million animals that are suffering in silence because of someone's "personal choice" that could well be made out of ignorance more than anything else, then I say good for them. If you prefer to stick your head in the sand instead of learning the truth and help make a difference, that IS your choice but don't expect vegans to stop reachig out to others who will.
Thank You! Couldn't agree withg you more :)I could care less what people chose to eat; I love meat, and for those who don't like it: piss off.
To all non-vegetarians: If you ever happen to see a chicken, cow, lamb etc being raised from young, their living conditions, being slaughtered, I bet most would stop eating meat.
Most (not all) meat eaters eat meat without being aware of from where and how that meat comes and what effect it has on the environment.
I still eat meat, but trying to reduce gradually and eventually stop eating meat at some point of time; compassion towards every living being is not a bad thing.
They are talking Vegan, not Vegetarian. When my vegan daughter visits, I only buy a few things for her, then send her shopping for herself. Do you read every baked goods label to see if it includes whey? If not, you are not really vegan. Do you know what ingredients are really vegan or not? Do you know what food color numbers are vegan? Going from eating meat to vegetarian is easy. Going from vegetarian to vegan is really difficult. BTW, if you go out to eat with my daughter and order a burger, she will not care and will not say a thing to you. Its her choice and she does not impose her will on you. She actually makes and sells "real food" for a living.
Thanks for the comment Owl. Yes, it is true practicing Veganism is really difficult. Only people who have a great motivation for personal and spiritual well being and care and love for all life on earth can venture into Veganism, only such people can be Vegans for life.
Where is your compassion for the plants of the world?
be careful Vegans are very upset that plants have been proven to have "feelings". That throws their whole arguement agaisnt the wall.
No. They do not have a nervous system. And even if they did, or somehow show "feelings," plants desire to be eaten, as this is how they spread their offspring - their seeds are eaten by animals, which they travel distances to new places, and excrete the seeds elsewhere, allowing the plant's "offspring" to flourish elsewhere in new locations to which plants are unable to "get up and walk" to. Seeds are specifically designed to have protective, non-digestible coatings, or otherwise resist digestion - i.e. they want to, and rely on, being eaten. When you eat you Veal (baby cows), not only do they not get a full life, but unlike plants, their genes are not being passed on. So, yeah, I sorta just threw your whole "argument" against the wall there.
First let’s start showing compassion for animals which can feel pain and are made of flesh and blood just like us, then we can stop eating plants. :-)
OK seriously, we need to eat something to survive, that is how we are made, the arguments of Vegans or Vegetarians are that: eat something which causes less pain to other life, better for our body and mind, spiritually good and great for environment too.
Of course, each will have a different perspective about these things...
Additionally, I would like to know how many carnivores would kill and butcher their meat (at least once per animal, -pig, chicken, veal, cow). Hmmm? As a vegetarian, I seldom talk about my compassionate choices unless asked. And then I tell them about the health benefits and options they might try, like Meatless Mondays or one meatless meal a day to start with. In time make it two days a week or two meals a day. eventually limit meat to when you "eat out" at a restaurant or party. In time you can make the change.
Thanks Eve.
B.S. I grew up on a farm and slaughtered many animals I raised with my own hands. They were like pets and even had names. When we ate them we appreciated the fact that we knew they were well fed and cared for and never suffered. We also appreciated the food they gave us as they participated in the cycle of life. All livings things came from those that died before us, as we will all do for future generations, both plants and animals.
That is why I said most, not all, meat eaters are not aware of how they get their meat. Anyway, thanks for the comment David.
Veganism is much more a religion than a rational philosophy, so parents should be allowed to raise their children under veganism in the same way they should be allowed to raise them under the tenets of the Jehovah's Witnesses – unencumbered, to the extent that their practice does not endanger the child in any way. This may be problematic; there have been several cases where children raised under extreme veganism have been found to be malnourished. Like other religious sects that put their children in danger by denying them proper medical care, however, such cases can be handled by the court system as they arise.
So long as all their nutritional needs are met,I don't see a problem.
“Isn't man an amazing animal? He kills wildlife – birds, kangaroos, deer, all kinds of cats, coyotes, beavers, groundhogs, mice, foxes and dingoes – by the million in order to protect his domestic animals and their feed. Then he kills domestic animals by the billion and eats them. This in turn kills man by the millions, because eating all those animals leads to degenerative – and fatal – health conditions like heart disease, kidney disease, and cancer. So then man tortures and kills millions more animals to look for cures for these diseases. Elsewhere, millions of other human beings are being killed by hunger and malnutrition because food they could eat is being used to fatten domestic animals. Meanwhile, some people are dying of sad laughter at the absurdity of man, who kills so easily and so violently, and once a year, sends out cards praying for Peace on Earth.”
― David Coats
Consuming animal products is not the cause of death. Living is the cause of death, some things just help it come faster.
Being vegan is unnatural for an animal that evolved for the last ten million years as an omnivore. Our teeth, our skin, our nails and our digestive system are those of an omnivore. Being vegan is as unnatural as being a strict carnovore. None of those provides a good nutrition.
The only valid reason for being vegan is macro-economic: eating plants consumes less land and resources. But then not using electricity, gas or clothes has a similar effect, and I'm pretty sure most vegans use all those things.
So the conclusion is clear: don't overdo it with meat, don't eat endangered species, reduce your consumption of unhealthy foods and live happily. Living by made-up and strict rules such as "don't eat animals" or "don't ever wear leather" does not conduct to happyness.
Lots of things that we do now would be considered "unnatural" if you're basing your "morals" on those of early humans! Why do you even care? Does it hurt YOUR life in any way if someone does not eat animal products nor parade these products around for his or her own ego gratification?
If it can be done in a healthy way, what is there to complain about? Vegetarianism (b/c some of us don't wear leather, either!) and Veganism are a diet mechanism by which we try to cause the least amount of suffering to our fellow creatures...yet you're sitting here judging us as having an "unnatural" lifestyle because we chose not to consume flesh. Scratching my head over that one...
As for the main topic, I don't necessarily think that little kids need to see photos, even cartoony ones, of animals in labs with "sores". It seems a little exploitive to me. People don't let their kids watch rated R movies (well, some don't), so why allow them to look at graphic imagery? This woman could have simply TOLD her daughter that there are labs that abuse animals so that we can do things like...wear mascara. I don't have a problem w. kids knowing stuff like that. they are a lot smarter and more with it than most people give them credit for. As long as their health needs are being met, sure, raise your kids vegan.
well said!
Every non-vegan tries to raise the "evolution argument" but also calls it "instinct and natural" for us to eat meat. You can't have it both ways. If you want instincts, go club a wife and defecate in your cave after you eat a nice large steak. If you want evolution, look at the civilizations that became great because they stopped being nomads and started planting crops. Gravitation away from meat and away from dairy IS evolution.
Our bodies are filled with scientific oddities – go ask a doctor why we have an appendix if you want one example. Why aren't our teeth sharp enough to puncture flesh like a dog's or a cat's are? Why are our digestive tracks so long and take so long to digest food like an herbivore's? Why can't we run as fast as a cheetah or overpower a bear with brute force if we were meant to eat animal flesh? Seems nature should have given us some means with which to feed ourselves!
Right... a brain! So that we can figure out changes of season and when to plant a crop, how to use fire to cook our foods to edible temperatures, how to use science to heal diseases, etc. Go ahead and continue eating animals all you like, I'll rest very comfortably knowing I'm using my brain for the purposes nature gave it to us... and living a much healthier life as a result.
Linda Eastman was a vegan who told her kids that milk would give them acne. She died of breast cancer. So cancer does not seek meat eaters. If meat was so unhealthy, why did humanity survive its evolution. Human beings depended on meat consumption before they developed agriculture. Eating meat gave ancient human females more protein for healthier reproduction.
I thought that Eastman was a vegetarian, not a vegan.
In any case, I don't know that it is eating meat that is inherently "bad".
I think what is bad is basing your diet around meat, and the hormones that go into the feed
Linda Eastman McCartney was nowhere near a vegan, if her cookbooks are any indication. The recipes are full of dairy and eggs. Perhaps if she had been vegan, she would have lived longer. We'll never know.
Cancer isn't choosy.. and not eating meat doesn't make you immune to it. It may lower your risk, but I don't think anyone ever said being a vegan means you will be cancer free for life.
i think you might be one of the stupidest people willing to post a coment
Not after you're post. Rife with irony, aren't we?
Dear "Not Anymore": I totally agree with you – now you are! Congrats! Clearly, YOUR grammar shows YOU'RE the dumbest. You win!
Andy, did you see that?! Look! Right up there!
That was my point zooming right over your head. KUTGW
what does grammar have to do with this topic exactly?
Children should be exposed to all types of foods as well as other things. Although I admire those people who are vegans it isn't their place to restrict their children's taste buds.
Why should they? That is not a very good argument.Is it going to kill a kid to not have tasted meat? Nope.
By that logic why shouldn't we lock them in a padded cell and feed them rice and water for the first 18 years of their life. Whats the harm in them not experiencing a little "life"?
are you honestly comparing meat to freedom?
"Children should be exposed to all types of foods as well as other things. Although I admire those people who are vegans it isn't their place to restrict their children's taste buds."
Would you also agree that "children should be exposed to all types of religions as well as other things. Although I admire those people who are Catholic it isn't their place to restrict their children's faith." Should Jewish parents make sure to take their 3 year old to church every Sunday? Should Presbyterian parents feel obligated to head to teh mosque with their toddlers in tow every time the call to prayer is sounded? Obviously not (although exposure to the beliefs of other people is always a good thing.) The fact of the matter is that it is the JOB of a parent to create a culture for their family. based on their values. EVERY parent imparts their values to their children. Why on Earth should ethical vegans be any different? We teach our kids our values and, if we're smart, we accept that a day may come when they reject them in favor of something that speaks uniquely to them. But we don't allow small children to operate under their own set of rules; that's what parents are for.
Kaydefrombc you might be the smartest person on here.
My parents raised me as a meat eater, society encourages me to be a meat eater. I have researched the topic and I made a choice, its called freedom. I am not taking anyones rights to eat meat away, would I prefer better farming practices similar to those in much of europe? sure I would... and FYI meat eaters, happy animals make better tasting meat. Ask my carnivore husband
All I can imagine from this is that embedding the reasons one attempts to be vegan on a child that young will cause them to be quite horrified later in science class when they learn that that there are microscopic organisms classified as animal which are on us and incidentally on even supposedly vegan foods, not to mention the many other ways of accidental animal ingestion (breathing being one of these). To strive for an ideal however technically impossible it is, is one thing but it should not be presented to children in this way that ignores the fact that not all animals are large enough to avoid ingesting and opens the door to let children just learning about such organisms to think that they are bad for not being able to avoid the unavoidable.
Yes, you are imagining that b/c I have never heard of a vegan child running screaming down the street after learning there are micro-organizisms. Really? Where do people come up w. these horror stories....
I'm not talking about 'running down the street screaming' but I cannot believe that it would not have at least internalized impact to the vegan child who has had this particular intensity of the message ingrained in their minds. Very young children are often not just literalists but are prone to making assumptions or associations that older children and adults have come to realize are not accurate. I remember myself at a very young age misunderstanding the phrase "you'll eat a pail of dirt before you die" that my grandmother used to often say about such incidents with my cousins or myself of making mudpies or the like. I heard that once and just in passing and for the next few years I was absolutely terrified of dirt, having thought the phrase meant that there was some finite amount of dirt (an exact pail's worth whatever that was) that one could withstand and when that limit was reached one would just drop dead. While I never went 'running down the street screaming', I can remember many moments of real mortal fear realizing that I had no way to know how full my particular 'pail of dirt' already contained and how imminent death might be. Children's minds can just work that way in many cases and they usually don't mention it either as many times when they take things so literally they won't bother to ask about or mention these mis-implications they might formulate from what they are told.
I would first like to say, Thank You all for posting your opinions,facts and humorous posts. Let's get real for just a few minutes Please.
To quote Ms. Roth from this article..." I lost weight,had more energy and never looked back".
1. How much did you weigh before writing this book?
2. How much weight did you actually lose?
3. What type of weight loss diet did you use?
I'm not believing that eating rabbit food ( Vegan Food ) or vegetables as you would like us to believe gave you energy,and an enlightening to write a book in big letters for kids to try and understand.
" I don't think that there is anything in my book that a kid wouldn't see walking in a supermarket or watching on tv".
Well Thanks for parking your kid in front of the tube "To Learn" while you are too busy doing Whatever in your supposed Busy Life. Did your Kid see an animal slaughtered and dressed for sale at the Supermarket? Was it a Saturday Matinee?
Nope I didn't think so.
Print the facts Ruby Roth,all the facts and cut the crap.
Most people who become vegan and actually take the time to educate themselves on nutrition and eat right report the same remarkable changes after as short as two weeks of changing to a vegan diet. I lost 30lbs and have since maintained the ideal bmi without much effort. I am no longer affected by joint pain, chronic fatigue, so yeah, I now enjoy more energy, need to sleep less, have better health and skin and feel younger. The reason is very simple – without having to cleanse the body of toxins that come with animal food and with no cholesterol to block blood supply to all organs, my body has more resources to do it's work like healing itself and maintaining optimal health. It's not rocket science. Maybe try being vegan for a month and you shall see what we are talking about. Most people who are so opposed to veganism here have not even tried it. They pretend to know what they are talking about. It is sad that they took facts as information fed to them by Big Ag or their folks, who probably got information from Big Ag or their folks etc. If these information were true, then why are 1/3 kids in this country overweight, why are heart disease and breast/prostate/colon cancers some of our biggest killers? All these diseases are unmistakably diet related, not mention a host of autoimmune or degenerative diseases that are NOT caused by eating vegetables, protein deficiency, or whatever deficiencies the meat/dairy industries have successfully misled the public into believing we'll have as soon as we stop eating their products.
I see a lot of fat soft vegans because they eat a lot of bread and starches. My friend's vegan daughter stopped menstruating and was told by a doctor that she needed to eat more fats. So vegans frequently do not "study nutrition" because it is not nutrition that makes them eat vegan. Guilt makes them eat vegan.
I see a lot of fat, soft meat eaters. Largely for the same reason. Any diet can be done incorrectly
I wonder how many vegans/vegetarians are fat, soft and out of shape compared to those who follow a meat eating diet
you're friend should make sure her daughter is eating a balanced vegan diet. I have a meat eating friend who is in fantastic shape, she also lost her period.. and yeah there are "soft" vegans, I think that's the point about making people educated on the subject
People are fat because they eat too much and they're lazy. Being a vegan or not will not make any difference in this area. You can be a fat lazy vegan i'm sure... although i haven't tried it myself.
As for cancer and other diseases... there is no data to suggest that dietary changes have any effect on rates of cancers or any other non-obesity caused diseases.
vegan diets are not healthy. the simple fact that they need to ingest man made chemicals to get the proper noutrients makes it less than desirable for most.
As a healthy vegan for the past nine years, I have no idea what "man-made chemicals" you're referring to.
TwM, i don't take any supplements "man made" or otherwise, but i have lots of friends that take multi vitamins, and they aren't vegans
are they anything like the man made chemicals that are forced into the animals we eat. The ones causing numerous known illnesses in animals and humans. The ones making girls and boys develop early and increasing the rate of breast and prostate cancer. I eat meat! I love meat! I buy organic meat certified to be free run and not administered hormones or antibiotics... My wife is a vegan, she doesn't take any chemicals, or try to convince me to stop eating meat.
Some children's books talk about religion and religious stories. If people think that it's appropriate to push religious views on children (who are naturally religious), then it should also be appropriate to push veganism. Personally, I'm against both ideas, although I might mention the concepts to my children.
How are children "naturally religious"?
They're not. Sorry, but that's silly. People are SOCIALIZED to be "religious"...no one is naturally religious.
Justin Barrett, an anthropologist at Oxford claims that religion is natural in children. He says it is the result of children believing that everything has purpose. When questioned why the first bird existed, children regardless of culture would posit reasons like 'to make the world prettier' or 'to sing pretty songs.' Implying that birds exist for a purpose and specifically a purpose that benefits humanity. They also tend to express disbelief in natural processes creating order from disorder. In studies done among cultures that intentionally withhold religious information from children, the children when queried were almost universally creationists. This does not mean belief in a specific god, but children seem very predisposed to belief in some sort of being behind it all.
which makes sense if you think about it. All children are self-centered little sh!ts. Everything around them is there for their pleasure. So of course with that mentality then the birds are there "for you" and if they are there for you then clearly someone or something had to have made them for the purpose of being for you. Linear thought process for self-centered linearly thinking children... The only downside is that many children grow up and never learn to be anything but self-centered.
I grew up on a farm (I don't live on one anymore because that life wasn't for me). What PETA and people like this author tell you are exaggerated truths at best. Farmers do not mistreat their livestock. Why would they harm something that is bringing them money? It’s akin to burning piles of money. Their goal is to keep them as safe and as healthy as can be until it’s time to go to the market. The healthier they are, the bigger they get, and the more money they make. Sure, there are some cramped spaces, but I assure you that even factory farmers don’t go around killing animals for the fun of it. There are some sickos out there, but there are sickos in every profession. I don’t hate nurses because a few of them have been caught killing patients.
Put up webcams in your "farm", invite the public to visit and maybe people can see how nicely your cramped animals live. Until then, I feel safer believing what INPARTIAL people like Jonathan Safran Foer, and those folks with the Humane Society say about factory farming where 95% of the animals we eat come from.
You are confusing factory farming with family farming. I live in a rural area and those cows out there have a great big field to wander in. You feel guilty and want to protest your guilt.
checl, where do you get that 'veganism is guilt' thing? Have you tried being vegan? Do you know any vegans? Because I am one and I know other vegans and nothing compares to the feeling of living everyday true to your values of compassion for All. It does your spirit good as much as your body. Try it, it is a good feeling and empowering knowing that simple choices you make such as what to wear and what to eat is actually contribute to solutions to some of the world's most pressing issues such as global warming, world hunger, animal suffering, human health... Good thing is anybody can do it. You don't have to have lots of money, or a lot of time and it fits right into your everyday life, but the impact is far reaching. I say if someone wants to make a positive impact, the most effective and efficiency way is to become vegan. If you think people who are trying to make a difference are guilty of 'guilt' I wish you had some of that in you.
LOL unbiased points. Typical Vegan. Of course those are biased views they are whack jobs like 90% of all the Vegans out there. You are a group that would rather save animals , that would not be born at all if you got your way, and do drugs ( supplements are drugs) rather than eat properly and forgo the supplements.
I personally feel that kids are more sensitive and can empathize with animals or humans pain better than adults.As we grow old we become more thick skinned and learn to cleverly cover or forget the basic compassionate instinct we are born with.I am not going here into health or environmental impact effect of the two choices ,but just have two simple experiences to share,
1.I am a vegetarian and my husband loves Non-Veg. We both respect each other choices and have different reasons to follow them . We have a 3 year old daughter who doesn't know the concept of Veg/Non-Veg yet .
Few days back when her Aunt was telling us over the video call that they had cooked Fish that day ,my daughter playing nearby and listening was aghast and told her aunt "How can you eat Nemo.....that is a bad thing...his papa will cry".She herself was almost going to cry and we had to console her. Well after that incident her aunt refrains from any recipe sharing :).
2.My previous Boss who was from Vietnam and ate fish almost everyday at home, went with his two young sons to his home country.After he came back from vacation he told us an incident. In a remote region of Vietnam they stopped at a roadside eatery. A guy came with fresh live fishes in pot ,for them to choose from.The kids started playing with the fishes.After a while the guy took the fishes away and cooked them .When the kids came to know that those were the same fishes they were playing with, they were shocked and refused to eat . By boss was telling that even after they came back to US the boys were still boycotting the fishes on dining table.
If the boys were boycotting the fish, it just means that they weren't hungry enough. Let them go hungry awhile, they will get over the "warm fuzzies." It is still hard to believe there are people silly enough to cater to their children's Disney-based culinary desires.
I find it is your opinion that is Disney-based. You sound like Cruella or some fictional major bad guy. In real life, most people have compassion, kids are encouraged to develop empathy and about 95% of the population believe that animals should be treated with kindness.
I like meat. I know the name of the cow in my freezer right now. Beautiful two year old Black Angus steer. Tastes delicious. If you want to be a vegan, I guess that's your right. If you want to raise your kids vegan, I figure that's your right too. One of the joys of parenthood is trying to teach our kids our values and if it means that much to you, I say go for it. It's no worse than raising your kids as a Republican or Democrat. Personally, I find meat delicious and animal products to be pretty valuable. I've seen my fair share of slaughters and I've participated in enough to know that you're probably not going to scare me into abandoning this stance. To be honest, as the father of a five year old and a three year old, I doubt you'd be able to scare them into it either. My boys don't really get the whole empathy thing. If they're not the ones being slaughtered, I doubt they'd care too much, unfortunately. Mine are both quite aware of the process behind getting meat and seem more fascinated than repulsed. You could probably tell him that they are tortured for hours on end before being killed and his slightly older than toddler mind would probably just say 'That's the way of the world' and move on. To be honest, if I were a Vegan, I'd hide it from them until they are older. If you raise a kid exposed to something, they think it's the norm, even if you say it's bad. If they never encounter it until they are teenagers, they end up shocked that their preconceptions are shattered. Raise the kids thinking farms are happy places with cartoon cows that prance merrily through the fields and then when they are 13 spring it on them that the cows end up dead and you'll probably have a happy Vegan on your hands. Farmer's children grow up killing chickens and pigs and know exactly what goes into it and I've yet to meet one that was scared away from a good T-bone steak. I grew up slaughtering pigs and butchering deer and it just doesn't bother me like it apparently bothers suburban people who think that meat comes from styrofoam trays.
senoy: that is fine with me. i am a long time (33+ years) veggie and i respect that others have similarly strongly held viewpoints. i do not try to convince others of my position. you can have a healthy diet that includes meat, you can have an unhealthy diet that includes meat. same with those that exclude meat. i do think that if you have watched the slaughters or participated in them yourself, you are very likely getting a lot higher quality meat than if you had bought it at the local wal mart
i couldn't care less about you children's diet. for me, the frightening aspect of your comment is that you are ok with the fact that your boys don't get "the whole empathy thing". wow. hopefully their mother is slightly more concerned about possible sociopathic tendencies than you are.
I agree, Desiree...people without empathy are called "sociopaths". Yikes!
Desiree, toddlers ARE sociopaths. Initial empathy can be seen in three year olds, in the sense that they realize that others do have thoughts that are independent of their own, but concerning themselves with the pain of others usually doesn't begin to manifest until the early elementary years and it's not uncommon or even concerning for some children not to express this empathy until almost their teenage years. The expression 'kids are cruel' is not just the result of a few particularly mean children. It's because children don't have the ability to place themselves in others' shoes. Responses that we as adults see as empathetic are usually learned behaviors that the child doesn't comprehend, but follows out of adherence to rules its parent puts forth. (e.g. If mommy is crying, hug her. You'll be rewarded with attention.) If you tell a five year old, Grandma is dying, he will frame it in how that impacts him. "I'm not going to see her anymore. She won't be there to hug me." Not in how it impacts her. "She must be scared and lonely." It's one of the reasons that guilt based discipline strategies don't work until the children are much older.
Speaking for yourself? I see little kids with empathy all the time. I know kids are self-centered but you think they are totally void of empathy and are all sociopaths? That's an exaggeration I think...
As for humans' innate and therefore most natural choice of food, try this experiment: give a peach and a rabbit to a toddler. If the toddler start tearing off the rabbit's head and eating the bloody carcass, but PLAYS with the peach, I rest my case.
Sorry guys, but senoy is right. empathy grows with the child. I don't think ripping a rabbits head off is the same as not understanding the death of an animal at that age...
I am probably a little late getting into this discussion, but here goes. Soyan, I have followed your comments and I agree with almost everything you have to say, but in this case, I have to agree with Senoy. Children are self-centered beings with little or no empathy. I believe it is a built-in human survival instinct. Helpless as they are (and on some deep level, they are aware of their helplessness) their gut and honest reactions to anything around them is "how is this going to affect ME?" In a way we, as adults, (whether we admit it or not) have the same gut feelings. We just hide it better, or have been taught that we should consider other beings. Think of when you lose a loved one. Most of your tears are in essence, for yourself. "What will I do without them?" "I'm going to miss them so much" "How can I bear to not see them again?" It's mostly about ourselves, not the person who has passed away. Elderly adults also revert to the "me" state of mind. My Mother had a stroke and moved in with me so I could care for her. She was in her 80's at the time. Not long after that, I myself has a catastrophic illness that had me near death. My daughter told me later that all my Mother kept asking was "what's going to happen to me if she dies?". Although she loved me and was the best Mother I could have ever had, her first thoughts were about HER welfare and survival. The human instinct for survival is probably the strongest emotion we have. We prefer to think it is love or compassion that drives us, but in the end, it's the will to survive. That doesn't make us cruel or unfeeling – just human.
As far as veganism is concerned, I'm with you all the way. Although, I did not become vegan because I chose a healthier lifestyle, I did in fact see some beneficial health changes because of it, including significant weight loss (which I desperately needed!). I mainly became vegan because I could not in good conscience continue to support an industry (factory farms) that treated animals that way. NO ONE would condone someone treating a dog or cat or other "pet" that way, but yet they look the other way when it comes to "edible" farm animals. Do they really think these animals feel less pain, less fear than a family pet? Being vegan is hard. In order to do it right, and remain healthy, you really have to work at it. And it is a little more expensive, no question. But the "rightness" of, for me, is worth the extra trouble.
Empathy and self- or other-centerdness are two different qualities. One can be self-centered and still possess empathy. Empathy is the ability to feel what others feel. This ability is not exclusive to humans. Many animals have been observed to possess empathy also. If a species is to survive it makes sensse for them to be able to have some knowledge of what the others (of the same species) feel, otherwise, it is quite possible for them to kill off each other. Your relatives may make comments that drives you through the roof making you believe that they are essentially self-centered and inconsiderate but at the same time, you have no doubt in your mind they know you feel sad when you cry or happy when you smile for example. Most kids will understand when you tell them little bear is sad because her mommy got killed by a hunter. This is empathy. I am no expert in child development but there are many who agree children start developing empathy as early as infancy.
hahahahaha
Hopefully we can get to a point where we respect choices instead of always trying to prove each other wrong. If you eat meat, enjoy it. If you choose to be vegan, have a blast. Eat whatever diet you feel is right and best for you in your life. I don't feel that eating meat is immoral, and not eating meat doesn't make you crazy.
D: I agree. Most of my friends are meat eaters and I do not think less of them because of that.
This statement in the article I find inaccurate: "Her new children's book, "Vegan is Love," is causing quite a stir, with some critics saying she's scaring children into a lifestyle choice that young kids aren't equipped to make."
Parents who do choose this book are likely already vegan and are likely already living the lifestyle described in the book, they are not giving a kid a book and putting that kid into an empty room to be "scared". With or without this book a vegan parent is already educating their child on their beliefs about animals. The book might just help them with their point.
Parents of kids who have nut allergy are not accused of causing wide spread panic when they buy a book that shows kids giving themselves epi-pen shots.
Are we crazy?! Is censorship of what parents can show their children really what this book should be provoking? I don't think so.
In a world where all animals had a chance to defend themselves or escape their predators to keep the balance of nature, it made sense to believe in the "food chain" as the natural order of things. In reality, farm animals are raised under the most unnatural and inhumane conditions, and animal farming ranks as one of the worst sources of destruction of our environment. It's ignorant and arrogant to use the "food chain" excuse in this day and age. If you like to eat meat, just admit it and acknowledge that you don't care about the impact that practice has on the rest of the planet, don't try to whitewash it as the natural order of things.
Very well said!
While many factory farms treat their animals very poorly, it is not difficult to avoid their products. In the area I live there are many local farms which raise their livestock under very natural conditions (free range, no hormones, etc) and I buy both local meat and produce as often as I can. To assume that people who eat meat don't care about the planet is both absurd and ignorant. Since a snarky comment deserves a snarky reply, I'll assume that since you care so much about the planet you don't use electricity (or any products produced using electricity), oil, or any other modern convenience which causes pollution in either its use or production. Wait, that can't be true as you are using electricity posting comments online. I guess you don't care that much after all.
You've read meaning into my post that wasn't there. I guess I hit a nerve. First, factory farming accounts for 99% of meat raised for food, so it's not as easy to get as you might think, and it's designed to be cheaper and more profitable at the expense of the animals. I applaud you if you actually eat meat from animals raised humanely and in an environmentally sustaining manner, although you didn't actually say that – only that it was available where you live. Second, I never said that I don't eat meat or that I live in a way that has no impact on the environment. I only stated that this particular human behavior, which in most cases is free choice and is not necessary to survival, has a seriously adverse impact on the environment, and not to acknowledge that is living in denial. By labeling something "snarky" and inferring meaning that isn't there, you lose credibility. I would welcome a lively debate on this, but not from someone who has to throw insults to make a point.
1. You said, "I applaud you if you actually eat meat from animals raised humanely and in an environmentally sustaining manner, although you didn't actually say that – only that it was available where you live."
I said, "I buy both local meat and produce as often as I can." I don't mean this to be insulting, but perhaps you should brush up on your reading comprehension?
2. You said, "I would welcome a lively debate on this, but not from someone who has to throw insults to make a point." In your original post, however, you said "If you like to eat meat, just admit it and acknowledge that you don't care about the impact that practice has on the rest of the planet . . ." That sounds like a pretty clear insult to me.
3. You said "You've read meaning into my post that wasn't there . . . I never said that I don't eat meat or that I live in a way that has no impact on the environment. I only stated that this particular human behavior, which in most cases is free choice and is not necessary to survival, has a seriously adverse impact on the environment, and not to acknowledge that is living in denial." If someone is ranting about the evils of factory farming and its impact on the environment (see your original post), it is pretty easy to infer (intended or not) that they don't eat meat and that they care about their impact on the environment. Perhaps you should think more about what your original post said before you criticize my interpretation of it.
I am well aware of how the world works and am certainly not living in denial. If you think my reply went to far I apologize, but unfortunately it was the product of reading too many irritating comments. For the record, I have lived in the Northeast, Midwest, and Southwest and am now back in the Midwest. I was easily able to find local meat and produce in every place I lived, so I don't really think it is that difficult to find if one has the desire to look.
As much as I would love to continue this, it is late and I doubt this will even be on my radar tomorrow. Feel free to reply again, but don't be surprised if you don't get a reply. Happy Eating!
Very well said. I think people have wandered too far from their roots and too far from reality.
Boy, that says it nicely.
The "food chain" does not stipulate the state of the animal (or plant) before it is eaten. It doesn't matter if it's farmed, chased, dies of natural causes (other than teeth or claw), grows, etc. It simply indicates a series of animals that feed on each other. As a whole, animals that are bigger, faster, stronger or smarter eat those that are not. We are smarter than pigs, so we put them in a fenced area that they can't escape where we hope they will make more pigs. So why is it "ignorant" or "arrogant" to state that we are the top of the food chain, and can do anything we like with our food?
After reading your post, I finally realize where those factory farm workers who are caught in undercover investigations to abuse animals are coming from.
Do you make your own clothes? Weave the cloth? Herd the sheep? Do you grow your own grains? Do you hunt?
No. Ya don't.
People have been raising domesticated animals for consumption for 100,000 years.
The human brain doubled in size when humans began to cook and eat meat. The vital protiens found in animal meat are necessary for normal brain growth. It might not show in a generation or even two, but cut meat out of a society for a prolonged period of time, the brain will decrease.
IF anyone intends to raise a child on a vegan diet, I sure hope they have a Doctor and a Nutritionist to ensure it is done without harm to the growth of the child.
There are so many other moral lessons to teach your children that compassionate eating should be a very low priority.
People have thrived on a vegan diet for generations and generations. So have renowned physicians and nutritionists like Dr. Spock, Dr. T. Colin Campbell, Dr. Neal Barnard, Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn. Do your research before you post something that will mislead others, please.
Dr. Spock? Not according to this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Spock
Don't make things up to mislead people.
And from CNN:
The call for no meat or dairy products for children marks a change for Baby and Child Care, which was first published in 1946 and has sold more copies in the United States than any book except the Bible. In the first six editions of the book, Spock consistently recommended meat and dairy products for children.
Get your facts straight. 2 years of veganism is not generations. Who's misleading who?
Natural selection over millions of years and hundreds of thousands of generations it what shaped our OMNIVOROUS biology. A few hundred generations using agriculture has not changed our DNA. Remember Soyan, minds are like parachutes, they don't function unless their open.. I see you are operating on your reserve chute that has not yet fully deployed.
mott, I'm willing to bet that the only experience you've had with a farm is the videos on PETA's (or similar orgs) websites. I admit that farms can do better, but they aren't the evil corporations that you make them out to be. Most farmers don't mistreat their animals. Some animals can be cramped, but there isn't enough land left to let them all be free range. It isn't feasible. The only way to fix that situation really is to eat less meat. Not all animals are cramped though. Cattle can have opportunities to walk around. Also, turkeys roam 400 ft long buildings without cages that isn't cramped at all almost until its time for market.
"The only way to fix that situation really is to eat less meat."
That's exactly our point.
Actually, the best solution is to boycott them. Find out which brands use the meat from various farms which you don't want to support (for example, Smithfield pork is supplied by several pork slaughterhouses currently under investigation for animal cruelty).
"Scaring" kids into religion is just fine, but teaching kids the REALITY of how animals are treated is not? #FAIL
Elaborate: corporate farming, hunting for food, or both?
I just had the most delicious turkey Alfredo dish ever, loaded with mozzarella cheese. The turkey we cooked on Sunday, then a few days later I boiled the neck, heart, and gizzards for a great high-protein after gym boost. Even fried up the liver for out Labrador. I don't like liver, she does.
Some things should at least be tried. Not allowing your kids to try it "until a certain age" is Communism.
Ummm no it isn't. Good lord go look up a word before you use it.
I see that humorectomy finally succeeded.
I just had curry made with onions, garlic, ginger roots, grated carrots, tomatoes, green bell pepper, mushrooms, kale, arugula, left over seitan sausage that I made on Sunday, curry powder, coconut milk + brown rice (100% organic and animal/cruelty/hormones/antibiotics/cholesterol/dioxin/PCB/HCA free) *and* is out-of-this-world good.
No need to worry about the disgusting animal pieces and saturated fat getting stuck in my intestines for at least 4 days that will putrefy and get all smelly and that will overload my immune system! Clean conscience, clean body. I don't mean to exaggerate its awesomeness, but understand that there's no way I will go back to what the meat and dairy industries tell me is best for me! (Those who think that it is their "personal choice" to eat as they do should think again.)
As for having this book that teaches kids how good it can get, I think it's called Progress if as with any other progress in history, there're bound to be people who strongly oppose. Those are usually the ones that benefit financially or otherwise from the status quo and thus cannot to counted on as capable of objectivity because they are driven too much by self interest.
The question is not whether it's healthier, or whether humans evolved to eat meat. To me, it has always been one thing: do you believe animal cruelty of such a massive scale (10 billion animals a year in US alone) is wrong and if so, what are YOU doing about it?
Sounds delicious!
I know. Wait till I tell you about home made rice milk made with organic brown rice, flax seeds, and a few dates for extra sweetness. Takes less than one minute on a vitamix and is out of this world awesome to have for breakfast with roasted peanuts. Similar method (easy and inexpensive) to make almond and soy milk but rice milk is my current favorite. Love It!
I have a Vitamix and look forward to making the rice milk. Thanks for the suggestion!
That doesn't make any sense! there isn't anything cruel about a child not eating meat, but you should support them if they decide they do want to try it.
All mammals are inherently non-vegan when young. Even baby rabbits drink milk. It is irresponsible to encourage young children to be complete vegans. Older children are, of course, another matter. And as adults, you can subscribe to any diet you choose. But babies need milk. If the Mom cannot supply it, they need a surrogate. And not a plant one, unless absolutely necessary due to allergies and such. Cows milk isn't the best, but it beats vegetable-derived milk.
Humans are designed (or evolved – take your pick) to be omnivores. Our digestive tracts are not those of herbivores. They are not those of carnivores. Our dentition (teeth) are also those of omnivores. And we do not get enough of all of the essential dietary needs from either pure plant or pure animal foods. (For those purists out there, yeast are fungi, not plants, not animals. But Fungi are more closely related to animals than plants. Take that however you wish.)
That said, one can eat a minimal amount of animal products from low on the "sapience" scale and still eat healthily, if that is your desire. But don't fool yourself that being 100% life-long vegan is a healthy practice for mammals. Not even for those we consider herbivores, like cows and rabbits.
Some vegans are engaged in just another form of mind control. Face it, the food chain exists in nature.
To claim it doesn't would be ... unnatural.
The Cadet's logic is sound.
Show me another species that manipulates genetics, antibiotics, unnaturally forces prey into unnatural living situations, etc, and I'll buy your "unnatural" argument.
I doubt he's making a case for human mishandling of our resources, more for meat eating in general.
So, we should also stop cooking our food and using indoor plumbing because your basic tree squirrel hasn't figured that out? I suppose you also argue that 'we are the only species that drinks the milk from another species ...'. Yeah. We figured out how to get the milk out of the cow. Wolves don't have thumbs.
Show us a species (besides our own) that drinks the milk of another species
Show us a species (other than our own) where adults continue to drink milk
Show me another species that knows how to get the milk out of a cow. ... And I have seen one or two kitty cats that liked a bowl of cream or milk, so ... there's one. We are also unique in that we cook our food ...
Show me another species (other than us) that wears clothes.
Show me another species (other than us) that reads and writes.
Show me another species (other than us) that cooks it's food. Builds elaborate homes. Cities. Drives in cars. Flies in planes. Explores space.
Your argument is pleasing and plausible, but lacking real merit.
Driving vehicles, reading, wearing clothes does not have as direct an effect on our bodies as what kind of food we intake for optimal functioning. Our physiology have not changed much during the time we invented cars, books and clothes. I know you have been told that you *need* meat/dairy/eggs, our physiology does not lie. It is quite clear that human beings possess the physiology of herbivores (while we are capable of dealing with some animal foods), we do benefit much by following a plant based diet.
I personally think vegans are emotionally immature and unable to deal with the fact that the entire world, from lowest animals to the highest (we humans) are part of a food chain, and incorrectly associate animal cruelty with nutrition. They are free to practice their belief, but I do not want to hear many of their number proclaim moral superiority because they don't eat or use animals. I have raised both plants and animals for food, and I find both to be quite acceptable, thank you.
"I personally think vegans are emotionally immature"
I think that folks who paint others with a broad brush are too lazy to realize that not all vegans are the same, nor are all vegetarians the same, or all the meat eaters, etc
Wow logically thinking... it's not something you see that often around here.
Agreed, of course they are emotionally and mentally immature, their brains are not getting the food they need to think clearly and rationally. Your brain is made up of large amounts of fat, and you need to eat more of the same for it to function properly. The veggies are playing ball with one hand tied behind their backs and are severely handicapped from the start. They can't even think straight. It's like a woman with PMS all the time. Thankfully natural selection will never allow them to become a major force in the world.
"I personally think vegans are emotionally immature ..."
Does the phrase "I personally think" help you feel more emotionally mature, sweetie? Sounds like you're used to having someone think for you. Makes sense after reading the comment you left. Go back to school and take Conversational English. It can only help.
The hypocrisy in your post is staggering...
You do realize that by beginning with "I personally think..." he was clearly trying to denote that what follow was merely his opinion, right?
Sadly, no one is allowed to have a differing opinion on this site no matter how educated their opinion might be. Apparently, we are only allowed to agree with the vegans and vegetarians.
I beg to Differ with your reply. Vegans are lower than rattlesnakes, or fire Ants on a Lone Texas Prairie. With a Hot enough fire,and some spices,Vegans don't taste too Bad if that's all you got.
"I personally think" is redundant.
"I think" and "I personally think" express the same concept. Could I impersonally think of something?
saopaco, thank you for your support.
It's actually just the opposite. Children who are forced by their meat-eating parents to eat meat and forced to suppress their natural emotions and reasoning. It's meat-eaters who have not developed naturally emotionally. There's a reason meat-eating parents don't tell their kids where their meat comes from. When you tell any kid for the first time that their hamburger is from the nice cow that they just fed hay to on their school field-trip, or that "pork" is actually from a pig - they are emotionally disturbed and upset. So, meat-eating parents will lie to their kids, and not tell them its true source until they're older, until it has become so engrained in their heads that they think they're "supposed" to eat meat that that they no longer start to question it. Or, if these meat-eating parents DO tell their kids, the kids will often refuse at first, and say it's "gross" or "mean" and they won't eat it. As a meat-eating parent will such strong beliefs, you undoubtedly forced/will force your kids to eat it meat, even though their natural instincts tell them it's not right. (Think about it: if you place a kid next to a cow, rabbit, or chicken - his first thought is NOT to given chase, bite its neck until it bleeds to death - he'd prefer to pet it, and give it some food, and be nice to it.). It's the parents who force their kids to kill and eat things they'd rather not. Fortunately for me, and many others, when my meat-eating parents heard my complaints and reasoning at age 7 that eating meat was gross and cruel (I didn't think it was right for me to be cutting an animal's life short when I could clearly survive sufficiently on everything else) - they actually listened to me, and were willing to support my decision. Rather than forcing their kids to eat meat by saying some brainwash that will make their meat-eating lives easier (e.g. "If you don't finish you meatloaf, you won't grow strong, and you can't go play with your friends."), they actually took the time to research it, and realized it was actually a smarter decision for them as well. Both of my parents have sinced dropped excess weight, and are back to their pre-wedding figures. And for the record, my mom also grew up on a farm, where she once raised her own meat - perhaps you should stop suppressing your true emotions you initially displays as a young child, if you have any emotion or compassion left.
Most kids don't mind knowing that meat comes from an animal. You don't think they realize that chicken comes from the animal named chicken? Or that fish is acutally a fish? I suppose if all you eat is hamburger or something there could be some uncertainty. Most meats are just the name of the animal. My kid knows and doesn't care. The butcher/farmer we buy meat from actually has pictures of the animals on his farm so there is not much ambiguity about where it comes from.
Well, if your kid actually saw the animals being killed and squealing while they bleed to death, or their head rolls off, he might care a *bit* more (And if you say it "wouldn't be right" to have kids watch this - because it'd be too disturbing to them, then maybe you should reconsider whether its "right" for us to be doing this in the first place. My guess is your kids haven't seen or closely interacted with cows, chickens, pigs, and other animals he eats. So, he isn't able to see that they're very similar to dogs. And, I guarantee you he'd have a problem if you proposed eating your Dog for dinner - because he's had an opportunity to interact with your Dog, and seen that it too has emotions and feels pain. If you gave him the opporutnity to interact with more animals (e.g., at a petting zoo, or animal sanctuary), you'd probably start to see him have more of an issue with it. But, right now, he's likely been able to distance himself from these animals - seeing a photo in the butcher shop is not the same as feeding an animal and seeing its happy facial expressions. And if you're going to say dogs are different and smarter than animals he eats - that's not the case either. Pigs have been shown to be smarter and express emotions like dogs - take a look at this (and many other youtube videos) - shows a pig running around in delight, wagging their tails, and expressing emotions similar to dogs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0CTtfNSXBI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9voiXYB_7Q&feature=fvwrel
@Andrew
I'm guessing you wouldn't say that sex is wrong just because you wouldn't show a child a pornographic video, right?
As for your other point, you do realize that there are hundreds of thousands of children around the world who take an active role in the raising and slaughtering of the animals they eat. Sympathizing with all animals to the point where you could no longer see yourself eating meat is almost exclusively a point of view developed by relatively wealthy, city dwellers. It can be your choice, but it doesn't make it objectively right.
"Well, if your kid actually saw the animals being killed and squealing while they bleed to death..." – We've already done that experiment. Just three or four generations ago – my grandparent's generation – nearly all kids in the country watched this first hand on a daily basis, and participated in the slaughter themselves. And went on to eat meat the rest of their lives. It is only a surprisingly short time since we were almost entirely an agrarian nation, and most knew very well how their food was obtained.
My daughter was 7 yrs old when a family friend came to visit and was telling us about a trip he recently took on Tuna Fishing Boat. My daughter was stunned. "You means tuna is a FISH!" All her life she just assumed tuna came in a can. We ate chicken cutlets (which don't resemble a chicken at all) and meat loaf made with ground beef. She never equated any of it with animals, which she loved. Don't assume that kids know these things. They pretty much take everything at face value. I am happy to report that we are all vegans now, and it is working out quite well for us (and for the animals we save), however few that may be in the grand scale of things. It's a small contribution, but we feel a worthwhile one.
Not all children grow up in condos in the city. Some children actually grow up on farms. Other children go hunting or fishing with their fathers at an early age. ...
Very good point Mike!!!
Reminds me of this movie:
http://www.peaceablekingdom.com/
Soyan, I think you have suffered brain damage. I would never trust a woman that doesn't "eat meat."
I wonder how many vegans have used glue, a shoe brush, or other items containing animal parts. How about Jello?
Think about it.
Well, the point of this lifestyle is trying to avoid-as much as possible, putting our survival needs ahead of another's. This is tough...I can't control stepping on every ant, but if I see one, I will take a small step out of the way. It's about being aware and trying to minimize our role in contributing to the pain and suffering of another person.
I meant to say "being" ...that includes people too!
Ahhh, see, this is where you're still a little slow, and vegans are about 17 steps ahead of you - they already have THOUGHT ABOUT IT. That's why they made the decision to go vegan and not use those things (not all glue and shoes are made with animals, little buddy). And no one likes Jello, which has horse hooves and ligaments to make it bouncy. Oh boy, that's sure going to be hard to give up! And even if they have accidentally or unknowingly used such animal products at some point, um, so what? Their efforts are making the world a better place 99% of the time.
Not Ligaments and hooves its called a long chain protein.... dolt
So, by "emotionally immature" I guess you are saying that those who are compassionate, who think not just with their primal instinct but with their heart, for those who go the extra mile to fulfill their survival needs, by deliberately selecting what will fuel their bodies without the cost of another animal's life, are emotionally immature. If THAT is your definition of emotionally immature, I will spare you my thoughts on your own emotions or maturity (or lack thereof).
Ok, if you went to or watched a video from a slaughter house and saw what they do to the animals there and how they are abused, and you still choose to eat meat, then you are the emotionally immature one. If you can't see that anmals are suffering for no reason other than to be brutally slaughtered for your consumption, then you are emotionally immature. Vegans are not hurting you in anyway. They are opening your eyes and making you think about your food. When people use the "they are part of the food chain" they are making a very uninformed statement, they are only part of it because we made them part of it. We don't need meat to survive, no human does, we are not carnivores. Go to http://www.meat.org – just for fun, humor me, watch it.
We might not be carnivores, but we did evolve to eat meat (among other things). NOT eating meat is the choice, not the other way around. All you need to do is stand in front of a mirror and smile to get a good look at those incisors and canines (hint: those aren't there for eating fruits and vegetables). Additionally, without modern day supplements, it would be extrememly difficult to survive by completely avoiding meat.
In my experience, the more someone tells you about their vegan life style, the more they insist you should be doing the same, the less likely they are to still be vegan in two years. There are plenty of mature vegans out there that will quietly support you in whatever diet you choose, and will kindly help you navigate nutritional information if you ask. The latter group tends to be the long time vegans.
First world problems.
Thanks for the label Captain Obvious. Now what?
Hitler and Charles Manson were vegetarians.
And Jeffrey Dahmer was a carnivore, what's your point?
Hitler wasn't a veggie. http://www.naturalnews.com/025163_Hitler_vegetarian_vegetarianism.html
Those are some of the ugliest animal illustrations I have ever seen. Artwork FAIL.
Don't go to the circus? lol There are serious issues wrong with vegans.
Lots of cruelty in circuses, Lolz. I'm talking the ones that use tigers, elephants, etc. Is that how you want to raise your kids? You may not know about it and that's understandable, but now you do. This has nothing to do with vegans; circuses over the years have been charged with cruelty to animals in their acts. Do your research before you let the kids be part of something like that.
not all vegans feel the same, lolz.
Personally, I eat meat though I respect others who don't. I also don't go to circuses nor do my children. They're full of cruelty and I have no desire to contribute or encourage.
Ditto for rodeos. Incredibly cruel sport. Bull fights, cock fights, dog fighting (remember Michael Vick?), dog/horse racing, the list of mankind's cruelty to animals is endless. Whale hunting, seal hunting, etc., etc.
I was disappointed that this book appears to link a vegan diet with animal rights. While both are important issues, they are not inseperable. Many vegans have chosen their diet for health reasons and continue to wear leather and support the use of animals in testing for medications etc. The title of this book is misleading and would be very off putting to parents just beginning to explore a vegan diet.
wouldn't a vegan who wears leather and approves of animal testing actually be a vegetarian then and not a vegan?
Bingo.
No. Being a vegan requires that you do not eat animal products. Only this, and nothing more.
Many vegans would consider that to be "following a plant-based diet," not being vegan. Most vegans try to avoid or minimize the use of any animal products.
Those vegans mentioned below (sorry, I can't respond to that comment for some reason) should invest in a dictionary.
While I disagree with the vegan lifestyle and worldview, I fully support their right to raise their own childrens in that worldview.
This is my first time commenting, so please forgive me if I break any Miss Manner's rules.
I am definitly a meat and veggie eater. I try to have a balanced diet, but I don't always do well with it. To be honest if I did go all veggie I'd probably be horrid at eating healthy myself. I don't agree when aniamls are not treated well, but I also know people that work and live on farms who don't treat animals the way it is discussed here. For that part, I think we need to look at how many farms turely mistreat animals before we make general statements.
I also think there is a lot to consider before people say "everyone should eat some meat!" or "everyone must only eat veggies!" On both sides, I knew one family that could not eat any pork because everyone in the family was honest to god allergic to that kind of meat. And they didn't care for the taste of red meat so they sorta just... wandered into a mostly veggie diet. Meanwhile I had a friend who wanted to be a vegtarian but had diffculty because there were many plant products he was deathly allergic to (such as nuts, soy and some legumes).
Concerning the book itself, as a librarian I feel it is a parents responsiblity to read any book and decide if ti is right for their child first. Some children might understand the book as a point of view and move on (either going veggie or choosing to still eat meat). Others could have nightmares and then get negative assoications either with meat or going veggie. In the end to those that dislike the book, the simple answer is not to buy it and simply drop the matter of the book. My experience as a librarian is that the more the book is challanged, the more a book is purchased and read for the sake of defiance aginst the nay sayers, or out of sheer curiousity.
Regardless of how you feel, I recomend you go to your library and take some time to read studies done for both sides. And keep in mind we don't always know what really causes problems for health. As it is I plan on doing some of my own research in the near future about this topic since I am certain my patrons will come asking me about it soon.
Excellent reply. Thank you. There are benefits to both styles of eating. Maybe we might all agree that individuals have different food requirements. I'm allergic to soy products whereas some people may thrive on soy. Reading, research, and critical thinking are the best ways to prepare yourself for anything.
I applaud this author for having the courage of her convictions. As one poster noted, the meat industry has certainly fed us a lot of misinformation ("happy cows" ads for example), or tried to hide the bad news about CAFO operations and its products. If this book counteracts their campaign, it's a good thing. Parents can choose or not choose to have their children read this book, but this author is encouraging her daughter to look "behind the curtain" and to think for herself.
I agree with her - people should direct their anger toward the meat industry, not the author of this book. She's just, in the end, tellin' it like it is.
Vegans have thi ssuperior attitude about them that's annoying. Half of them look close to death and unhealthy to me. Have theire been any studies that say Vegans live longer ? All the people I read about that live to 100 eat your avg diet . In moderation I think things are ok. However , how parents choose to set up their households is up to them . If parents are vegans are they supposed to cook meat for their kids until they are old enough to choose their path. I don;t think that is practical.
i agree with the author on one point: the food production in our country is disgusting, but it's not only the production of meat, the production of vegetables is just as atrocious when you see how the farmers are being exploited in the capitalistic hunger of these big food companies. Food has been industialized in america to the point of insanity, our vegetables are pumped full of chemicals to get rid of insects that are natural to that enviornment and our meat is being cleaned with ammonia in order to get the ecoli out of it due to the poor conditions of the ranches. In the end, protesting the production of food in america by becoming vegan is a fairly ignorent gesture, because if you were actually mad about the food production then you would just stop eating. It's simply the fact that she masks the true issue, she's n ot protesting food production, she's angry at a natural process, hunting. We are animals, we hunt, our superior cerebral cortex's allow us the ingenuity to create tools in order to catch our prey, what is so wrong about that?
Most vegans probably eat local or organic, and thus avoid the pesticides. Unfortunately, it is really difficult to find healthy, chemical free food. Um, I think vegans are stopping eating the food (don't understand your point) ... why is it ignorant to become vegan for, among other reasons, protest of the poor food supply? Also, I don't understand why people have to sling insults at vegans and vegetarians, as you have. And not everyone wants to use their "superior cerebral cortex" to hunt. Some people use it to find alternative ways of eating, and it certainly works for them.
I sure agree with you about the fact that we should not link eating meat with the way meat is prepared in our moral-less and clueless and greedy society. Meat could be humanely prepared, and people could be paid fair wages, and health care could be available to all because we obey a good God who said to take care of each other. We could change so many things before we put disrespect on such a healthy practice as eating meat.
There's another economic aspect of this. I think that much larger interests are using the vegetarian movement as a platform for further lowering wages. Meat is expensive, a grain based diet is not (and besides, it causes diabetes and other health problems, like obesity, and they get all the money from that, too, a two-fer, and how they love that), or rather is less so.
My wife and I are both vegan and we work in scientific fields (I'm an engineer, she is a medical doctor). There is absolutely nothing wrong with raising your kid as a vegan. Many parts of the world employ a primarily vegan diet as a necessity anyhow.
It is odd how everyone seems so concerned with the nutritional aspects of veganism, while they inhale chicken nuggets and french fries that are washed down with a coke. Being a vegan doesn't necessarily mean you are going to have a perfect diet, but the odds of getting the nutrients you need are a lot higher than a near-carnivore counterpart.
I think what this article is asking is closer to the political veganism many idiots employ. Being a vegan because you think humans should not consume animals for moral reasons is just stupid. Farm Cows/Pigs/Chickens/Goats/Sheep/Ducks exist as a food source for humans. There would be far fewer of them if this were not the case. The feelings of animals is not a good reason to be a vegan. Health is a perfect reason to be a vegan. Decreasing your chances of acquiring heart disease, diabetes, cancer, and countless other maladies associated with consuming animal proteins and caloric dense foods.
Well, you had me until the third paragraph when you became hostile to vegans you feel differently, and to boot, uncaring toward animals. Luckily, most vegans do their diet for both health and compassion reasons. Thank goodness they're not all like you.
I'm not trying to be stupid with this question: Is coke vegan? Is there a lot of "junk food" that can be classified as vegan, like potato chips and stuff?
Some assume that all vegans and vegetarians eat a healthy diet simply because they skip meats, dairy, fish and eggs. That is not always the case.
If it's processed right before it hits the street, yes.
Unless you meant Coca-Cola. That's vegan, too.
You are making a false dichotomy here. It's not either being vegan or stuffing your face with fried chicken. There are also plenty of people who eat meat and animal products as part of a healthy and well balanced diet, and do very very well, thank you. Some of us... gasp... even exercise!
You make a good point, I shouldn't have put it as so black and white.
Mountains of evidence show that eating animal based proteins greatly increases your chance of having many of the afflictions I mentioned. You can exercise and eat low fat steak all you want, but that doesn't mean you are not increasing your chances of getting cancer.
You state: "Farm Cows/Pigs/Chickens/Goats/Sheep/Ducks exist as a food source for humans. There would be far fewer of them if this were not the case." I see this as a lapse in logic. The high population of animals you cite exists because of factory farming. We unnaturally and artificially breed animals to be raised as food. Their populations are manufactured for consumption. There aren't expansive, roaming herds of wild cattle we go out and shoot every day for food.
This all depends on what you consider "successful" for a species. Corn hardly exists in the wild. Millions of acres of it are grown each year. I just don't think animals have the mental faculty to want to be "free". They have a good life with plenty of food and babies, or they do not.
That being said, I think the conditions in which farm animals are raised need to be improved a great deal.
It just funny, because here in the US, it is very difficult to know where your food comes from. Having lived in Europe, in a small town for most of my life I simply have not seen any "processing" done to any meat. Atr the weekly marketplace all of the food come from the farms around the town. Here is an example of how the meat come to market. At the age of 8 on my uncles farm I saw a live slaughtering of a one of their calves. My brother told me I'd be vegetarian by the end of the day. It certainly did not happen -in fact that was the best tasting fried liver and brain tortilla I ever had. I saw exactly how the processing is. About the same as when I have to gut my catch when I go fishing. When I would walk around I would be surrounded by those resources which would grow in the neighbors fields, the products that come to market -they grew the potatoes, grelos, greens etc that would be brought to market on thursday, and the same goes with the hogs, chickens catlle etc. The most processed food that I have ever seen to proccess of making it is Tofu, With the amount of processing to get a cube of... what is it.. is really a protein? well whatever it is, jst watch modern marvels about how they make tofu, I'd rather watch the veternarian cut a cow.
Tofu is no more processed than traditionally-produced cheese. It has been a dietary staple in Asia (originated in China) for over a thousand years.
Personally the only reason I find it wrong to limit a childs diet is because we are omnivores. Our bodies were designed to consume both plants and meats. Now once a child has finished growing, and developing I don't see a problem in changing their diet. You can't change the fact that we are not born herbavores or carnivores...our biological make up is what it is.
Excellent point. Veganism is a VERY decadent way of life found in very few cultures. People talk about American arrogance? Go abroad and get offended if you are offered meat in a place where meat is rare. The amount of effort it takes to sustain a bodies requirements without meat is substantial. Humans are obviously designed to eat meat. If we weren't, we couldn't digest it. But I suppose these people have fully quantified all of the nutriltional requirements of a growing child and successfully replaced it with a viable substitute ....
The meat/dairy/egg industries spends hundreds of millions of dollars lying to the public about their product. But no amount of false propaganda can sanitize meat. The facts are absolutely clear: Eating meat is bad for human health, catastrophic for the environment, and a living nightmare for animals. There's never been more compelling reasons or a better time to opt for a plant based diet.
Want to create a better world? Eat like you mean it – Go Vegan
Provoked- what you wrote are not "facts." They are "half-truths." Eating meat is not bad for human health. There are some studies that suggest that eating an *excess* of red meat is bad for health, but they are not conclusive and don't account for other health and lifestyle factors. Second, while raising livestock is not good for the environment, it is not "catastrophic", either. Irresponsible livestock farming can, of course, have negative repercussions on the environment, but so can irresponsible grain and produce farming. Finally, stating as a “fact” that livestock experience a “living nightmare” is anthropomorphizing their existence. Since we can’t effectively communicate with livestock, it’s impossible to tell how much they are suffering, if they are “suffering” at all. You have the right to chose to be a vegan/vegetarian, and I certainly don’t begrudge your decision. But that does not mean that omnivores are wrong, unhealthy, or inherently evil.
Finally, I don't know about you, but I see a lot more PETA advertisements promoting vegetarianism and veganism than I see advertisements promoting red meat. I don’t know where all that advertising money is going, but it’s certainly not affecting my decisions.
If you see more ads for PETA than for animal products, you are programmed beyond repair. And you need to read The China Study if you don't think consuming any animal products at all is deadly to humans. There is no more authoritative source on nutrition this anywhere. Same about the environment. In short, vegans know more than you about this because we read every single thing ever written. Please do the same so you can make an equally informed decision instead of pretending that you know the facts and making a decision based on those programmed responses.
Consuming "any animal products at all" is "deadly to humans?" And you've "read everything ever written?" I'm trying really, really hard to inject some reason into this debate but there are limits even to my patience. Clearly, neither of these statements can even possibly be remotely close to the truth. Surely, you realize that, don't you?
The China Study has been debunked numerous times. And the data was cherry-picked, data that didn't support the agenda of the author was excluded. The information in the actual study doesn't support the conclusions in the book.
If you want something to read, try these:
"Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" by Weston Price DDS
"Good Calories Bad Calories" by Gary Taubes
"The Primal Blueprint" by Mark Sission
"Protein Power" by Michael Eades MD and Mary Eades MD
"In Defense of Food" by Michael Pollan
"Real Food" by Nina Planck
"The Paleo Diet" by Loren Cordain PhD
"The Vegetarian Myth" by Lierre Keith
AJ...Great list. I would add "The End of Illness", by David Agus, MD.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but The China Study has been thoroughly bunked:
http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/08/03/the-china-study-a-formal-analysis-and-response/
To all the people stating the China Study has been debunked 'several times':
1. As far as I know, it's only been debunked by Denise Minger. Everyone else seems to be citing her, though please do correct me if I'm wrong.
2. As for all the books on the paleo diet, I seriously considered it and I really liked Minger's arguments about the China Study as well. Then I stumbled upon plantpositive.com. I hate to say it, but the videos on that site completely destry the Paleo diet, Denise Minger and a host of other diet-related topics. I highly advise anyone to watch them, even if you might be wary, at least you can find out more about diet and figure out which side (if any) makes more sense
Parth: If the Paleo diet is so unsuccessful, why do so many former veg*ns choose to try it, find that their chronic illnesses are relieved and/or eliminated, and stick with it? Because Paleo promotes ethical meat-eating and sustainable agriculture, fitness and community. It's difficult to find people who fail to thrive on Paleo or Primal/Ancestral diets, yet quite easy to find former vegans and vegetarians who had to quit their diet due to their deteriorating health.
Eating meat is not bad for our health. Eating processed meat (hot dogs, hamburgers with additives, etc.) is bad for us; as is eating meat from livestock raised on improper diets (such as corn-fed beef) and pumped full of hormones/antibiotics. But meat from pasture-raised animals or wild game is very healthy.
Raising livestock in pastures is actually beneficial to the soil. And maintains natural habitat for wild animals to live. Most pasture land is land unfit for crops (hill, rocky, sandy, etc.) A diet that includes some meat actually uses LESS LAND than a vegan diet.
Do you have any idea how harmful it is to the environment to grow crops?
Like everything, moderation people. This is in response to "Soynut" or whatever his name is who continually is espousing that dead animal product is the #1 cause of obesity, diabetes, heart disease, etc, neglecting to mention our increased production of sugary products laden with cane sugar and/or HFCS. I eat a good amount of Fruits and veggies, and mostly lean meats and fish, with an occasional night of red meat. I am pretty skinny, work two jobs, one of them a youth basketball coach, where I actively participate. According to some of those posts, this is bad.
Using their asinine statements, I will abandon this and eat nothing but Vegan cupcakes, and be the healthiest person in the world, because only animal protein makes us fat.
Name calling. Real mature.
Your comments, of course, are the pinnacle of courtesy and respect. To each his own, as you imply ... so maybe cut out the insults.
Your comments aren't exactly the pinnacle of clarity and courtesy. To each his own ... if you want to eat meat go for it. But it doesn't help to insult others' postings. Nobody's gonna force you to be a vegan. You're a big boy or girl, surely you can eat whatever the heck you want to without feeling insecure.
Hey Vegans, don't try to convince me to give up meat.
Conversely, this is still America, and if you don't like what this book espouses, rather then throw a hissy fit, just don't buy it. It s not as if kids are being forced and tackled to read this book ( well, not yet....those PETA people are nuts sometimes ). What happened "to each his own?"
All I have to say is I am glad that I live in a country where I can raise my children how I want, buy a book that I want, and read it to my children if I want.
I don't personally care how others eat, however, my only wish is that people would educate themselves. If you can go to a PETA site (or other site) and watch how your food is treated, killed, and produced and still eat your burger then that is your right. But I have little tolerance for people who criticize those of us who have taken the time and educated ourselves about the meat industry and have chosen to not be apart of it.
VladT
This actually was a general statement, not directed at you. I have never posted to CNN so I obviously goofed up!
Yes, what did happen to "each his own"? So maybe cut out the insults against PETA and vegans ... and just live and let be. Try it. It's good for your blood pressure.
this is a very graphic video but it worth watching. Most of the factories that process our meats treat animals just as bad...
Actually, I grew up in a on a farm in a community where ~90% of the people were farmers. I can assure you that this isn't normal. These videos make me sick to my stomach, but they do not represent even factory farmers. It just doesn't make sense to do this. To farmers, that is like destroying a little piece of your livelihood every time you unnecessarily kill an animal.
Vlad: I am a vegetarian, not a vegan. I don't care a bit about what you eat. I make my choice for myself.
"It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes."
http://www.eatright.org/about/content.aspx?id=8357
These vegans should join P.E.T.A.
People Eating Tasty Animals
Please
Elicit
Thought-provoking
Acronyms
Wow, what an awesome joke Kieran! Very original, I've never ever heard that one before. Aren't you just so clever to think of that and share it with us because no one has ever said that to vegetarians/vegans in the history of the internet. Thank you Kieran. Thank you for your highly entertaining and original contribution that no one has heard before.
*end of sarcasm*
HAHA, thank you, Really! I'm so sick of that acronym, and someone always comes up with it in these discussions, like it's so new and fresh.
What is most awesome about the acronym is the reaction it gets. Clearly I struck a nerve, which was the whole d@mn point. Quiet yourselves stinky hippies. Go protest or join the "occupy" movement if you care this much...
I have some funny PETA acronyms for animal-haters, but for some reason, the words "emasculate" and "eviscerate" tends to unnerve people.
Wow...you're quite the funny guy....recycle a joke from the 90s. HAHAHAHAHA! Witty!
Looking over the comments, one thing becomes very clear: being vegan makes people very, very angry and intolerant. Maybe you should consider trying some red meat to calm yourselves down.
wow....you got that out of the posts? i got a bunch of people who want to make dumb comments vegans and vegetarians
95% of the people in this country believe that animals should not be mistreated unnecessarily. And yet 95% of the population continue to cause unnecessary animal sufferig through ignorance of their food choices (largely affect by advertising campaigns by the Big Ag) which in turn causes the epidemic of heart diseases, diabetes and cancers of the human population and bankrupts our health care system. If this does not make you mad, then I am sorry for your ignorance.
If you believe that meat is the cause of diabetes, you've been grossly misinformed.
Pretty much all degenerative diseases are caused by animal fat and proteins. People become vegan for different reasons, health, the environment or the animals. I became vegan because of how animals are treated in food production. But the side effect is my health restored 100%. I changed from someone who had to visit specialists after specialists for a host of different degenerative diseases and being told there's unknown cause and no treatment that CURES the diseases, to someone who now has a 100% clean bill of health. I did not say red meat causes diabetes but a vegan diet with no processed food can actually cure diabetes. Please do some research, ignorance is not an excuse.
Soyan, it is nice that your health has improved. However, results for a few individuals do do make the results scientifically significant. You will find just as many studies that find grains and unregulated supplements to be at fault for many of our health problems.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=red-meat-diabtetes
Yes, Robin. Processed red meats are bad. Still, we need more studies because you will find that people who eat hotdogs, processed sandwich meat, and foods containing niacin also have a diet high in fried foods and sugar.
Soyan, I don't think you've read through all of the "scientific studies" that claim to prove that meat = diabetes. People who switch to a Paleo diet–heavy in meats and easy on the carbs–have also had success in reversing their diabetes. You're basing your assertions on anecdotal evidence. Please don't present these as facts.
Soyan- I would hope that 99.9% of society finds it unacceptable to unnecessarily mistreat animals. Of course, if anything is being mistreated, it is, by definition, unnecessary. But I digress. The point is that your definition of "unnecessary animal suffering" appears to be fundamentally different from mine. Cattle, pigs, chicken, etc. have all been specifically bred over hundreds, if not thousands of years, specifically to provide food to humanity. Raising and killing these animals for food is the very reason they exist at all. If I am going to eat meat (and I am), then raising animals is quite purposeful and anything but unnecessary. As for the suffering argument, I believe that there is more than a bit of anthropomorphism involved in this claim. Since it has so far been impossible to communicate effectively with cows, chickens, or pigs, it’s rather difficult to conclude that the living conditions they endure cause them suffering.
To be clear, the living conditions are quite “inhumane” at many livestock farms. But- and this is a big but- livestock are not humans. Whereas I would not enjoy living in a cage with limited space and being fed the same meal 3 or more times a day, I cannot conclusively state that it bothers livestock even one little bit. In fact, as others on this comment board have pointed out, chickens tend not to lay eggs when stressed, yet produce quite well at most “normal” commercial farms, suggesting that the living conditions don’t bother them significantly. No sane farmer I know “mistreats” their livestock- such a thing would not be in their interest. That is not to say that there are no “bad apples”, but they are the exception, not the rule. Finally, it’s entirely possible to be an omnivore and get all your meat from free range/wild sources, and avoid commercial farming altogether.
If I was going to argue for a vegan/vegetarian lifestyle, I would personally stick to the argument that the hormones (and to a lesser extent antibiotics) used on livestock can have negative repercussions on long-term human health. Or that the mercury found in many types of seafood is similarly harmful. But there are potential issues with GMO crops as well, and most anything in moderation is not likely to significantly affect a person’s health. Ultimately, being a vegan/vegetarian is a lifestyle choice that is neither wrong nor right- it’s just a choice. It may be a good decision for some, and completely unpalatable (literally) for others. And that’s okay.
Marcus, you seem to think that animals should be treated kindly and not cruelly. Please watch "earthlings", if you have not already.
Marcus, I can't even believe that anyone is arguing that factory farm treatment of animals is okay. Do your research - those animals release a tremendous amount of stress hormones, AND engage in stress-based behaviors due to confinement. To imply that these creatures were raised to live like and it's okay, is just so ignorant and actually pretty darn sad. Having sympathy for animals raised in these conditions is simply working toward treating another species with kindness and respect. Please, please, I implore you to do your research.
Marcus, chickens in factory farm conditions who lay tons of eggs are doing so under artificial conditions - it's called forced molt and it involves not feeding the chickens for up to seven days. Can you imagine going without food for up to seven days? Believe me, CAFO farms do not have the interests of animals at heart, and could care less whether or not an animal is stressed. Again, do your research, watch the videos. All you'll see is animal stress.
Slider- If an animal is bred, born, raised, and killed specifically to provide me with nutrition, I'm not going to feel bad if it got stresses out a little along the way. Sorry. I'd feel different if the life of the animal didn't serve any purpose, but it does. If you want to promote what you view as better methods of livestock farming, I'm perfectly okay with that. And even if you are opposed to factory farming (which you clearly are), that's not a reason, in and of itself, to stop eating meat. Plenty of people get their meat from free-range / cage free animals.
Marcus, yes, I agree; if you are going to eat meat, do so from a local, compassionate source you trust. However, your statement that animals are a "little stressed" in factory farming is grossly misinformed. There's no way you can live your life in a battery cage or a gestation crate and not be more than a "little stressed." These animals we raise for meat or for producing young have just as much personality, and in some cases, intelligence as your pet dog. Read about the work of Farm Sanctuary and Catskills Animal Sanctuary. I think it'll open your eyes about cows, chickens, and pigs. I again would beg you to do some in-depth research before you include throwaway phrases like "a little stressed." But I appreciate your post and the discussion.
Slider- I, too, appreciate your civil tone and informed debate. And I respect your dietary choice, even if I don't agree with it for my personal use. As for livestock and relative intelligence, my wife would tell you that setting the bar for intelligence at the level of my pet dog is probably not the best way to make your point.
For the record, I am hardly a carnivore. I primarily get my protein from chicken and while I indulge in steaks and burgers from time to time, I don’t eat red meat that frequently. Frankly, my favorite food is a good pizza, which while certainly not vegan is not too far from being vegetarian, depending on the toppings. I certainly could be more healthy in my eating habits (Again, just ask my wife!) but I enjoy the taste and variety of the foods I eat now (some of which are vegetarian and/or vegan already) and don’t intend to unnecessarily restrict my diet. Frankly, I find it hard to justify a strict vegan diet as “healthier” or “more natural” when it usually requires B12 supplements to meet basic nutritional needs. In addition, from a sustainability standpoint, a primarily vegetarian diet with some limited meat consumption actually has a *smaller* environmental footprint than a strictly vegetarian or vegan diet, so a little meat is actually good for the environment. Of course, the key is the words “a little meat” and I’m probably not quite where I need to be to meet that threshold. But, hey- nobody’s perfect.
Marcus, thanks. Quick response - maybe intelligence isn't the right word. I do believe animals are intelligent in their own way and for their own needs. Maybe the better response is, they can feel pain (it's been proven) and they suffer because of pain (that's been proven). They may not respond to pain with "higher thoughts," as some may say, but they still are perfectly capable, sadly, of suffering. On an unscientific note, just watching a video of a downed cow being shocked to stand back up (at a slaughter house) is to see a being in terrible, terrible screaming distress. It's not for the faint-hearted to learn about and watch these things. And certainly, you would never confine your dog in a battery cage or a gestation crate would you? Or use a prod to shock it to stand up if it had an injury? We practice this kind of "okay for you" "not okay for you" favoritism toward animals and it's good to question why. I do challenge you to research more, but as I implied, the images will haunt you and aren't for the faint-hearted.
Marcus, further response: I think being a vegan or a vegetarian is up to the individual, as is whether or not you choose to eat meat. I do think in heathier cultures, my understanding is that they base the meal around veggies with smaller amounts of meat than we consume. Yep, you're right, nobody's perfect, for sure, and we all have to be careful about finger pointing, whether we do or don't eat meat.
SixDegrees, maybe you should give up posting to calm yourself down. You seem to love to get on boards for this and other stories to make your digs and insults. Lighten up, dude! Post some nice stuff ... people might actually listen to you.
What is the number one cause of death? It's heart disease, blocked arteries that are gobbed up with animal fat. What else do people need to know? I think veganism is the only way to go and it's easy once you learn how. There are many delicious vegan recipes, it's just a question of what you are use to and how you've been raised. Maybe people should question how they were raised. I was raised on nothing but meat and potatoes and I had to change evetything I had learned about food because my health was really suffering. I follow the Ornish vegan diet now and it's the only one proven to reverse heart disease.
"I think veganism is the only way to go"
This, in a nutshell, is the entire problem with vegans – they are utterly intolerant of any viewpoint other than their own, and are not content to simply live their own lives as they see fit but insist on forcibly imposing their choices on everyone. They are as zealous, alienating and bigoted as evangelicals.
nothing like painting people with a broad brush there, six
how is she "forcibly enforcing" her choices on you? you seem like the intolerant one
also, dbag, did you not expect vegans to comment on a story about vegans?
I have found that when I point out to people where their animal foods actually comes from, people instinctively, automatically and immediately realize how much it goes against what they believe in – the world and people are decent human beings, they themselves are kind and caring individuals. Some people see this as a wakeup call and make changes in their lifestyle like reeducate themselves about nutrition and become vegans. Others prefer to stick their head in the sand and to make themselves feel better, they become defensive and attack the people who really try to make a difference.
Soyan- SixDegrees' arguement appears to be that he (or she) finds vegans and vegetarians to be insufferable. They may not have been polite about it, but it's clear what the stated opinion is. To respond to their post with a comment that essentially states, "I try to tell people to be vegans. The smart ones listen, and the stupid ones don't," really doesn't help your case, and if anything, helps to reinforce the original poster's point.
Marcus, I say people behave and respond differently which is an onjective observation. I didn't say one group is smart and the other stupid. Where did you get that from???? Your perception seems to me distorted and you seem to be on hyper-defensive mode (!) which is exactly my point.
Soyan- You didn't say that people "respond differently." You said that some people "reeducate themselves" and become vegan, while others "stick their heads in the sand", become "defensive" and "attack" those they disagree with. Not quite the same thing. It's not a strech to infer from your comment that you hold very little regard for those who disagree with your opinion.
Soyan is clearly a LGBTG idiot. Lack of protein and EFA does that to your brain.
Good old Six. I knew it was only a matter of time before you popped up with your usual nasty commentary. Nothing like stereotyping people as you're doing with vegans, is there? See the responses ... maybe you'll learn something.
Actually the number one cause of death in this country is old age. It just so happens the when you reach the age of 60, 70 and 80 years of age you will more than likely have some form of heart disease due to old age. lol
When I had all these degerative diseases, I asked my doc what causes them. Because he didn't know the real cause, he told me they were all a part of "aging". After I changed from a standard American diet (s.a.d.) with organic animal products to 100% vegan, within two years, all health issues which my doctors told me there would be No Cure for resolved spontaneously. So, i am convinced that diet plays a huge role in our health. In case you aren't aware, people in the western world have been getting sicker younger nowadays. There are a lot of people with cancer, diabetes, autoimmune diseases and even heart disease before they reach their fifties. I say they are not dying of old age. They are dying or getting degenerative diseases prematurely.
So you know more than your doctor?
Whatnow, western medicine is a disease model. The focus is on treatment of symptoms and most physicians' education do NOT focus on nutrition. Maybe this is news to you but that's a known fact.
So, sugar/HFCS, more starch increases, etc has nothing to do with body fat and diabetes. Its all evil animal fat....you know, like Salmon, skinless chicken, etc ( that I mostly eat, with the occasional red meat dinner ). I will immediately quit that diet, and start eating vegan style twinkies and vegan cupcakes.
I feel healthier already!!!!!
Soyan...Oddly enough, we are finding that more and more educated vegans are adding fish to their diet because we all know the benefits. Food trends are just that, trends. Wait two years it will be different. Also, VladT makes an important point about sugar. Salt is also a huge problem. My relatives all live to an age between 96-104. They all ate beef, pork, chicken, eggs, dairy, fish and vegetables. Their food was better processed than what you buy in the grocery stores. See, we can find lots of individual information for both sides, but there is no real significant study to prove your point.
Whatnow, as I said before, there are many reasons people choose to become vegan. I did not become vegan for health reasons. I did it because the animals being raised for food live in unbelievably horrid conditions. The health benefit is just a side effect that I noticed after being vegan and wanted to share. I do not hope that people are choosing to be vegans for health reasons. Because I agree with you, it is just like any dieting trend which becomes popular for a while and then fades away. People who become vegans for health reasons alone usually can't stick to it and soon will revert back to eating some animal products because there is no study that concludes our body cannot handle a little bit of meat, a little bit of dairy, eggs etc. When I speak about the truth behind animal foods, the horror and unimaginable cruelty built into the animal food system, I am hoping that people would perhaps change their lifestyle to be true to their own values. If this is so threatening to you that you feel the need to defend and attack, I only feel sorry for you.
Whatnow, doctors don't seem to know much about diet and its impact on health. I don't think it's a large part of their studies in medical school. It seems to be rare for a doctor to really get in-depth about what their patients eat, and in fact, my mom's doctor has recommended she drink diet soda! Can't think of a worst substance to recommend for consumption.
WhatNow, I don't understand your statement that more and more vegans are adding fish to their diet. Who's saying that? What's your source? Just curious. If they add fish, they aren't vegans, by the way, LOL.
Soyan and Slider. Wow, I guess you both told me! I will suggest a book, several have been suggested by others on this site. "The End of Illness" by David Agus, MD. Dr. Agus is a cancer specialist who works in research and is well respected in his field and widely published in reputable professional journals. Yes, I know the definition of vegan. My comment had to do with vegans recognizing the importance of fish and making the switch to add fish to their diet.
Actually, eating animal fats does NOT "clog your arteries". This has been disproved time and time again. In fact, it's been found that saturated fat (which comes mostly from animal products and a few plant products like coconuts) actually counter-acts inflammation.
Arteries are "clogged" by cholesterol. Blood cholesterol does not come from dietary cholesterol, it is the body's way of repairing inflammation in the arteries. You know what causes inflammation? Grains and sugar! What do most Americans base their diet around? Grains and sugar!
I'm pretty sure the number one cause of death is old age
Heart Disease is #1.
http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2012/01/11/15-top-killers-of-americans/
Old age is not a cause of death. Diseases & conditions related to old age can be.
I know my kids understand what animals go through to feed us, for they live on a farm that raises their own cattle and chickens for food. They understand those are not pets, they are to be dinner. It's most likely safer then what you find in a grocery store by far. Vegans don't bother me so much if it is their eating style. My biggest thing....having a vegan come in and order a sandwich with no cheese or animal products, but they still want the bread. By the way almost all bread in sandwich shops have eggs and milk in them. To me these people look pale, sick and unhealthy. My aunt has lived on a similar diet like this for as long as I can remember, her kids were raised this way as well...the girls are WAY too thin for their height, her husband is severly under weight for his height, both my aunt and uncle look WAY older then what they really are. In fact the only kid of theirs that looks healthy now lives away from them and has incorported more meat into his diet.
Well, at 61 and 95% Vegan for about a year I still leg press probably near 1,600 pounds, ride a bike (about 1,700 miles since last November), workout with weights three times a week and most think I am 42 to 45. Some rashes and other medical issues seem to have cleared up nearly completely during this past year and changing the diet is all I can attribute it too. See Forks over Knives the movie, and read, The World Peace Diet.....there is plenty of protein and everything else, just need to eat enough calories....on that note I am about six one and 220 pounds...with about a 34 inch waist and 52" Chest.....get healthy, go Vegan as you possibly can!.....
thanks for relating your story. I've done a vegan diet a month or two at a time in the past, but hearing of your success and good health might give me the push to go all in. I think I'll notice the benefits more now, at 40, than I did 15 years ago. It's too easy to ignore all the poisons, hormones, antibiotics, etc. that lace the products of the dairy and meat industries!
Frank, either you are Vegan, or you are not. 95% doesnt count. That's like saying I am vegitarian but every couple of months I enjoy a hamburger.
Who made up that rule?
Perfect example of the militant vegan attitude.
"He loved hamburgers, steaks, chicken enchiladas, barbecue and french fries but wasn't too picky."
"Former President Clinton now considers himself a vegan. He's dropped more than 20 pounds, and he says he's healthier than ever. His dramatic dietary transformation took almost two decades and came about only after a pair of heart procedures and some advice from a trusted doctor."
"The Clinton Foundation has teamed up with the American Heart Association and is helping 12,000 schools promote exercise and offer better lunches so decades from now, today's children will not face the same heart troubles he has."
SEE: http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/08/18/bill.clinton.diet.vegan/index.html
BIll Clinton ate junk before; fast-food and junk food. Of course when you cut back on that stuff, you'll lose weight, no matter what diet you choose. (And now he just looks sickly. He went from one extreme to the other)
When older people lose a substantial amount of weight, they tend to end up with extra skin and may look "sickly," as you put it. Better that than being truly sick with blocked coronary arteries.
I'm definitely not skinny or sickly and have been vegan for several years. Just like omnivores can look unhealthy so can vegetarians and vegans if any of them don't eat right. Just like meat eaters can live on junk food you can be vegan and live on chips, fries and oreos if you don't make an effort to make healthy food. If that family is unhealthy as vegans chances are they'd be unhealthy as omnivores too. I had to learn to cook and read labels carefully when I became vegan and actually the good breads without all the chemicals and preservatives are usually some variation of just yeast, flour, water, salt. I'm 33 and get mistaken for 25 all the time. A coworker who decided to go vegan lost his spare tire, he said his hair felt softer, and his skin ended up smoother after just a few weeks.
A couple of points:
1) Humans are designed to be omnivores. It's a fact.
2) It's possible to get your necessary nutrition via a vegan or vegetarian diet. It's not easy, and it's not necessarily "better" than an omnivorous diet, but it's possible.
3) Much of our meat is raised in "inhumane" conditions. But animals are not human. In fact, most animals that we eat have been specifically bred over hundreds, if not thousands of years, specifically to feed us. And not all of our meat is raised in bad conditions either. It's possible to be an omnivore and still be a responsible human being.
4) The vegan/vegetarian lifestyle clearly works for some people. And it doesn't for others. Those that it works for, tend to stay vegan or vegetarian. Those that it doesn't work for tend to go back to being omnivores. So arguing with a vegan/vegetarian that their lifestyle doesn’t work is basically futile. If it didn’t work for them, they wouldn’t be vegan or vegetarian in the first place. And vegans/vegetarians- just because your diet works for you does not mean it will work for everyone.
5) Omnivores with bad nutritional habits will likely stay omnivores. Vegans/vegetarians with bad nutritional habits will likely revert to being omnivores. Also, the effort required to be a successful vegan/vegetarian means that those who chose to adopt and maintain that lifestyle tend to make other healthy decisions in their life as well, such as getting adequate exercise, finding ways to reduce stress, etc. The net result of all of this is that vegans/vegetarians tend to be healthier than omnivores. But this is NOT because veganism/vegetarianism is inherently better. It’s because only successful vegans/vegetarians STAY vegans/vegetarians and said group of people tend to have other healthy habits relative to the general population.
1) NOT a fact. Some humans might be omnivores. Some are also cannibals. Some are herbivores. Our hands and teeth are not similar to those of typical carnivores/omnivores that need to tear the flesh they eat.
2) Vegans/Vegetarians live longer. FACT. Google, and you'll find numerous studies.
3) To draw vague distinctions between animals & humans to make a point about whether something is "inhumane" is ridiculous - ok, great technical argument there. The reality is, humans are mammals and mammals are animals. We're not special. Just because we're smarter, doesn't give us a right to treat other mammals poorly. And yes, while it's possible to be an omnivore and still be a responsible human being, 99% of our meat is not treating responsibly. And unless you're killing the animal YOURSELF (so you know how it was done) painlessly, and are comfortable with taking its life YOURSELF (rather than having someone else do something you couldn't bring your heart to do) for a few minutes of something "tasting good", I'd argue you shoudn't be eating it in the first place.
4)
I would say that ingesting any food tainted with hormones and antibiotics(pretty much all commercial meat and dairy) is inherently worse than any vegan diet.
John- Just like commercial meat and dairy has its issues with hormones and antibiotics, commercial produce and grain has issues with genetic modification, fertilizer, and pesticide use. It's entirely possibly to get either meat or vegetables that are 100% natural/organic/free range... but very few people choose to do such a thing. And since many vegans and some vegetarians need to take artificial vitamin suppliments to maintain proper nutruitional levels, it's difficult to claim that such a diet is "inherently" better. There are advantages, to be sure, but there are disadvantages as well.
The only supplement I have to take is B12 and that's because produce is so thoroughly sanitized it strips it off (not that I'm complaining about sterilized veggies). Animals get B12 because they eat straight from the ground, if I were to eat from my garden and just give my vegetables a rinse I'd be ok with the B12 but alas, I live in a city apartment with no garden space. If a vegan/ vegetarian eats right they shouldn't need much in the way of supplements but that also can be said of omnivores who aren't getting enough essential vitamins because of poor diet choices. My friend's husband won't eat any fruits or vegetables, not even an apple, and he looks doughy and sickly.
Thanks Marcus. That is my point as well. There are many healthy people that eat meat and dairy. One of the healthiest countries in the world is Iceland, along with Sweden, Germany, Japan. We never hear much about Iceland because they eat mostly meats, fat and dairy. This doesn't fit in with current popular food trends. If adults who are fully formed wish to be vegan or vegetarian, that is fine. My concern is for growing children.
finally, a sensible assessment. Thank you.
My thoughts exactly.
Marcus, good post, although it's not been proven that humans are omnivores. (Please don't do the teeth argument; our canines are inadequate.) I'm not sure I agree with Post 5, that vegans/vegetarians are healthier because that set of people has a healthier lifestyle. This is a diet that may be truly healthy for people who want to do it and can do it.
Slider- we do have proof that humans have been eating meat for tens of thousands of years. That pretty much makes us omnivores, no matter how you look at it. Herbivores don't eat meat. It's not a choice- they don't prefer vegetables and grains- they eat vegetables and grains exclusively. By definition, animals that eat meat and fruits and grains are omnivorous. And since we are animals that eat both meat and fruits and grains, we fall into that category.
As for #5, you really only addressed half of my point. The other half is that successfuly, healthy vegans and vegetarians tend to stay vegans and vegetarians, while unsuccessful converts tend to revert back to being omnivorous. Thus, the vegan/vegetarian population is significantly more likely to be comprised of healthy people who find that the particular nutritional choice works for them, whereas the omnivorous population is comprised of.... everyone else.
Some humans have also been cannibals throughout a significant portion of our history and evolution, and some still are - that doesn't mean cannibalism is what nature intended. So, just because people have been omnivores in the past, doesn't mean that's what nature intended, either. More and more humans are EVOLVING towards being herbivores - because their brains are evolving and becoming smarter towards what is healthier and will make them live longer (and we're now able to grow all the protein-rich food we need). Surely, not all members of a species evolve towards what is best for a longer, healthy life. That's why there's a little thing called Natural Selection. And when I have to run from the next asteriod that hits earth, my heart won't collapse due to years of eating animal products.
Andrew- Be careful when you start talking about "what nature intended." There are really only two ways that argument can go. 1) There is no supernatural being (aka God), so therefore if it happens in the natural world, it is in fact exactly what nature intended because nothing other than nature exists. If that is the case, then clearly, nature intended some people to be cannibals because said people exist. 2) There is a supernatural being (or beings) and they somehow have influenced certain humans to do things that are against their natural instincts. This is obviously a very philosophical argument that is well outside the scope of our current conversation.
Back on topic- nothing you've stated has altered the facts. We ARE omnivores. We eat meat as well as fruits and vegetables. That is the definition of an omnivore. The fact that we can process both meat and grains (unlike herbivores) makes it clear that we have evolved the capability, not just the desire, to eat meat. That doesn't mean that we will always be omnivores- or that we have always been omnivores. It simply means that we are, right now, omnivores by definition.
Marcus, we don't have proof that humans have always been eating meat. And even if they have, so what? Does that mean we know HAVE to? I don't think so. We're not necessarily built for it in terms of our teeth and intestinal systems. I think we CAN eat it and digest it, but I don't think we have to or anything evolutionarily speaking proves we have to. In this day and age, with so much food available to us, people can choose not to eat meat and be perfectly healthy. To be honest, I can't speak for 4,000 years ago, LOL, but the point is, if someone chooses not to eat meat now, today, they'll be fine. Again, up to the individual.
Re point 5, you'd have to really do a study to prove what you're saying. I do see your point, though. I just don't know how one would prove it without a long-term study. But, yes, you're right, the veg folks may care more about health/exercise and so be healthier due to that.
I'd like to point out a couple of things (feel free to disagree though):
1. I do believe we evolved to be omnivores
2. But that does not necessarily mean an omnivore diet is healthier, i.e. genes that affect your health after reproductive age can survive. In the past, people would have kids and then die around the age of 30-40. It's very much possible that genes that cause us to have cardiovascular diseases etc survived since those diseases typically don't occur until late 40's at the earliest.
3. So although an omnivore diet might help you survive till the age of 40, it doesn't necessarily mean it will help you survive till the age of 70.
Health arguments aside, let's take about ethical arguments
4. There's a lot of things we've been evolved to do. Women are evolved to have children from a relatively young age. However that doesn't mean we should let 14 years old get pregnant. We need to make a distinction between what we were evolved to do and what we should do based on an ethical basis. Appealing to nature can provide for logical fallacies, so I would be careful about that. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature
In the very end, I personally try not to argue for a vegan diet based on health reasons, but rather on what is ethically right and wrong.
Child abuse.
Sickos.
You're a moron, and have no clue.
"[A]ccording to the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics (formerly the American Dietetic Association), “appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for
individuals during all stages of the life-cycle including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood and adolescence and for athletes.”
A well-planned vegan diet, one that contains nutrients vital for normal development, such as vitamins B12 and D, iron, calcium, zinc and protein, won’t stunt kids’ growth, says TODAY’s nutrition expert Joy Bauer. Substantial amounts of B12 are naturally found only in foods derived from animals, Bauer notes, so breastfeeding vegan moms need to make sure they get it from fortified soy milk and cereals. After they’re weaned, kids can drink fortified soy milk themselves.
“As long as the diet is carefully planned and well-balanced,” Bauer says, “vegan diets provide all the nutrition you need to fuel your growing child and typically contain HIGHER AMOUNTS of the ‘good stuff’—vegetables, fruits, beans, lentils, nuts, seeds, etc.—than the standard American diet.”
SEE: http://moms.today.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/17/11102428-should-kids-go-vegan?lite
Oh - and I'm sure you'd have no problem feeding your kids (or if you have kids, already fed it to them) - the pink slime that is used in chicken nuggets etc, and is TREATED WITH AMMONIA BECAUSE IT HAS SO MUCH HARMFUL BACTERIA. Talk about "child abuse" and "sickos." I think I'm going to opt for the wheat-gluten based protein, thanks.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/story/health/story/2012-03-14/Pink-slime-critics-fight-ammonia-treated-meat/53534628/1
Andrew- did you read the article you linked to? And did you read the articles that article, in turn, referenced? While you are free to not eat meat, please don't continue to propigate myths about "pink slime." It's not slime, it's meat that's mechanically separated from bone and fat, and then treated- just like any variety of other foods, many of which you eat. Brussel sprouts, cabbage, carrots, cheese, caramel, and a host of other food products contain ammonium hydroxide, either naturally or as a result of treatment.
Given the general concern vegans/vegetarians tend to have for the environment, they really ought to be SUPPORTING the consumption of "pink slime." It's a safe product that essentially identical to what you would get if you put a chuck steak in a blender. And the incorporation of this "slime" in our diets dramatically decreases the number of cattle that are required to meet our dietary demands because more meat can be obtained from each cow. Much like the Native Americans used every part of an animal that they killed, "pink slime" is our society's way of getting the most benefit from each animal we consume. Isn't that a GOOD thing?
I agree with you on the Native American point - I agree that if you kill an animal, you should be using all of its parts to the extent possible. Unfortunately, people today do not give the same respect that the Native Americans gave animals they killed. Natives let the animals run free and live strong, healthy, normal lives, only taking what they need and when they needed and - and praying/thanking God and the animal for its sacrifice. Factory farms today treat animals terribly and animals suffer - and people never stop to think about the sacrifice and often throw out half of a steak dinner because they can't finish and don't feel like taking home leftovers. It'd be one thing if you were lost in the woods, and need to kill something to survive. But, to take an animal's life, eat a few bites, and then say, oh I decided I'm not that hungry - I'm going to throw this out, sorry I killed you! - to me that a bit different. People of today act in no way like Native Americans. So, while I agree with you its best to use all parts of the animal - and that should be a goal if it's going to happen - that ultimately wasn't my main point.
The reason I made the pink-slime-with-so-much-bacteria-it-needs to be treated with ammonia point was simply to refute the comment above that Vegans/Vegetarians are sickos/child abusers, when things that meat-eaters are forcing their kids to eat are arguably more disgusting, unhealthy, and even more risky/unsafe.
Would you like help down from that high horse, princess? Chill out. People are entitled to their opinion, same as you. Doesn't mean you need to stoop to such a level as to call them names.
Not sure who you're referring to here, but the placement of your response seems to be replying to me. My comment was in response to the person equating Vegans/Vegetarians with "Child abuse[rs]" and "Sickos" - which is rather offensive to me, given that it could not be further from the truth - as such Veg parents are clearly looking out for the health and well-being of their children - and most are smart enough to research it before introducing it to their children. I only resorted to name-calling and jumping on my high-horse to combat that stigma constantly associated with Vegans/Vegetarians as being some weirdo/sickos, when, quite frankly, they tend to have more of the facts, and know what they're eating - which is why they don't eat meat in the first place - they've actually taken the time to think about what they're eating, rather than shoving food in their faces because it happened to be on the menu thrown in front of them.
Any parent who forces their children to be a vegan is a sick weirdo. Children need a balanced diet to grow up healthy. By stripping them of meat they will grow up puny pathetic weaklings with a variety of health issues. Humans are omnivores we need a balanced mix of meat and vegetables.
Clearly, your ancestors were rather "weak" in brain development arena, as your brain clearly didn't evolve with the same strength that your massive biceps apparently did. Perhaps tossing a few more vegetables into your diet would help in this respect. Take a look at the sharp claws and talons you have on your fingers. Take a look at your sharp teeth able to pierce the thick hide of a cow and bring it down to the ground. And when you see an animal start to run, do you have a sudden instinct and urge to give chase, leap on its back and bite through its neck until so much blood runs over your mouth and hands that the animal stops quivering? Doesn't seem natural to you, does it? If you saw someone do that, you'd probably, say "Holy F%^&!" that person is insane and needs to be locked up. If we were meant to eat animals - you shouldn't have that mental reaction. See where I'm going here? Let me help you out: we're not meant to be omnivores. Take a look at any other omnivore - we're not physically designed to be omnivores. You might want to use a bit more of your brain, and not immediately jump to the conclusion that we were meant to be omnivores. Some humans are cannibals - but that doesn't mean that's what nature intended. The only thing that has allowed humans to incorporate meat into their diet is a superior brain that is able to build tools/weapons. But, more and more people every year are going vegetarian & vegan - because it's healthier and vegans live longer and people are finally getting smarter, and moving beyond the whole "sticks and stones" era - so your whole "weak" argument, is, well, just that. When I'm alive at 110, watching my great-grandkids run around, and you've been in the ground for 30 years due to heart failure from too many meat products that your body is not meant to, and unable to, process properly (leading to build-up in your arteries - something that doesn't occur in carnivores) - maybe we can talk about whose heart and body is ultimately weaker. And for the record - many of the world's best athletes, and Ironmen/Ironwomen (Google it, because I'm sure you've never heard of, or known one) are vegan, and are pretty jacked. I could go on and on, and give you hundreds of citations, but if you can figure out how to Google, you can probably find the facts yourself, and perhaps evolve with the top of the food chain, and not be an early casualty of natural selection due to unnatural food choices.
Andy- the reason we no longer need sharp claws and (as sharp) teeth is because we evolved the ability to use tools. There is no need for sharp teeth and claws when a spear or an arrow will do just fine. Mastering fire and learning to cook our food also decreased the need for sharp canine incisors. On the other hand, our primate relatives (assuming you believe in evolution, of course) who have not mastered tools to the level we have, still have substantially more developed canines. They also eat insects, eggs, and in some cases (albeit less frequently than us) meat.
In any case, it's difficult to argue that humans are not naturally omnivores when it is clear that our ancestors have been eating meat for thousands, if not tens of thousands, of years.
Right. We evolved to a point where we were smart enough to use tools, and at the time, eating meat helped us to survive. It doesn't mean we were ever meant to eat meat, or that we should be eating it today. I'd argue that humans are becoming smarter and smarter, and we're now moving beyond the "tools-get-meat" stage of evolution. I'd argue we've now reached a point where we're smarter than our ancient ancestors who ate me because it was "there" or they had to in order to survive. Larger and larger percentages and going vegan/vegetarian because we're learning more facts - that it's healthier and you'll live longer with a healthier heart. (i.e. Natural Selection). We no longer need meat to survive. We know how to plant crops and make high-protein meals without meat. So, if it helps us live longer, I'd argue we should continue to evolve (as we did in the best) to the vegan/vegetarian lifestyle that helps us live the longest.
**ate meat
**as we did in the past (sorry its late)
Andrew- After a little internet-searching, the only seemingly unbiased study I found regarding the benefits of a Vegetarian/Vegan diet was one done with ~2000 Germans over the course of 21 years. While it did show an increase in lifespan for vegetarian/vegan diets as opposed to a heavily meat-based diet, there were two mitigating conditions. First, the study did not account or correct for other lifestyle choices (such as drinking, smoking, exercise, etc). Second, it showed no difference in lifespan for those who considered themselves "moderate" vegetarians as opposed to those who considered themselves strict vegetarians or vegans. In other words, having meat in moderation appears to have little to no impact on overall health, even in the study most widely quoted by vegetarians as being authoritative.
And of course, there are also those who would claim that a few years of life is a small price to pay for the priveledge of getting to eat meat.
Also, T-rex (he was a dinosaur living before the stone ages) - umm, not sure if you noticed, but he also died off kinda early. He also had really short and puny arms, but made lots of noise with his mouth.
trex. you are a moron.
Andrew- natural selection depends on how many children you have that also reproduce. Whether you die at 60 or 110 usually makes no difference on whether your genes are passed on. In today's culture, people who eat a poor diet are the one's being selected for.
So what are you never too young to eat polluted dead animals and toxic chemicals? Vegans are healthy, responsible and compassionate. It's never too soon to teach children how to be better people.
I find it interesting any time there is any sort of dairy, meat or any other agriculture issue there are so many people who are passionate about their sides. I can definitely understand where each side is coming from. I was raised in a fairly rural community, meat was the main entree of every dinner. It wasn't until my early twenties that I learned about where and how my meat was raised; it truly broke my heart. I won't preach to anyone telling them to be a vegetarian and what not but if you have any compassion for animals take a look at the many undercover investigations of where meat comes from, it may give you a different perspective. It's the factory farms that are not only responsible for the recent mad cow outbreak but they also basically own the USDA.
See the movie FORKS OVER KNIVES and then decide if veganism is for you. Some might think being vegan is extreme, but heart bypass surgery--cracking open the chest, stopping the heart, taking a vein from your leg and bypassing clogged arteries in the heart-- is even more extreme.
having a higher rate of certain cancers due to consuming fatty animal products including dairy is just not worth it.
read the scientific studies and decide.
i would rather be vegan.
You should do some more research beyond watching a propaganda movie. That movie is full of falsities, fallacies, and mis-represented information.
Here are some books for you to read:
"Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" by Weston Price DDS
"Good Calories Bad Calories" by Gary Taubes
"The Primal Blueprint" by Mark Sission
"Protein Power" by Michael Eades MD and Mary Eades MD
"In Defense of Food" by Michael Pollan
"Real Food" by Nina Planck
"The Paleo Diet" by Loren Cordain PhD
"The Vegetarian Myth" by Lierre Keith
We raised our kids vegetarian ( lacto – ovo ) when they became teenagers it was well balanced vegan, they got less hormone accelerating things in their diet, grew taller and taller. Grown son is 6' 4" and daughter a fraction of an inch below 6'. Healthy well adjusted and as they became adults choose to go lacto – ovo.
The well adjusted part resulted from knowing and serving God, learning from their mom's diligent efforts and their dad's reconversion.
Human appetites brought under control of reason, information, choice with cheerfulness – keeps appetites the servant and not the ruler of the person, freeing them to get on with a well balanced life.
Vegetarianism is not my Redeemer, but it has kept me from the symptoms of diabetes when all the rest of my Mom's immediate bloodline have major symptoms, and most have died.
However consider this, people before Noah's flood who chose not to eat flesh kept the benefits of Adam & Eve’s short time eating from the tree of life. Once Noah & family were given permission to eat flesh, their descendants life spans dropped like the graph of a biological decay curve.
A researcher once explained to me that he took a group of non genetically prone young men and fed them a high sugar diet for ten days, it did not significantly change their lab tests.
He took the same group and normalized their diet for then days. Lab work was fine and normal on them all.
He put the same group on a high lipid (oils and fats especially animal fats ) and meat for ten days.
Every man’s lab work now showed PRE diabetic style readings.
His conclusion : diabetes is a multi stage organ systems aging disease.
Genetically susceptible individuals, eat the American style diet, which accelerates the shift toward PRE diabetes, then the highly refined carbs and sweets and stuff like, that pushes them over the edge.
Contact Dr Vicki Griffin PhD if you want to know more.
http://www.hopevideo.com/Pricelist_for_Vicki_G.htm
http://www.hopevideo.com/media_with_Dane_and_Dr_Vicki_Griffin2.htm
Dr Dean Ornish used a severe low lipid vegan lifestyle program to open severely clogged cardiac arteries without surgery.
Even vegeterianism / veganism is to be servant to a well balanced life and not the other way around.
quote from the book – Counsels on Health "Pure air, sunlight, abstemiousness, rest, exercise, proper diet, the use of water, trust in divine power–these are the true remedies. Every person should have a knowledge of nature's remedial agencies and how to apply them. It is essential both to understand the principles involved in the treatment of the sick and to have a practical training that will enable one rightly to use this knowledge. {CH 90.2}
The use of natural remedies requires an amount of care and effort that many are not willing to give. Nature's process of healing and upbuilding is gradual, and to the impatient it seems slow. The surrender of hurtful indulgences requires sacrifice. But in the end it will be found that nature, untrammeled, does her work wisely and well. Those who persevere in obedience to her laws will reap the reward in health of body and health of mind. {CH 90.3}
BTW I am a fat vegeterian age 60, not yet diabetic. My wife is vegan, dietary vegan, we use leather etc. We force or nag NO ONE. We live, we lead, we love, and are kind. Choose upon the weight of evidence and with your own conscience. I bid you peace.
If you believe in the literal interpretation of the bible as it applies to Noah and the flood, I find it hard to understand how you attribute the decrease in human lifespan after the flood to an omnivorous diet. First of all, the bible indicates that Abel was a shepherd, implying that humans were ominvorous from after the fall, if not before. Second, the bible specifically quotes God as stating that he decided to limit the human lifespan to 120 years after the flood. So the reason for decreased lifespan, from a biblical perspective at least, has nothing to do with the consumption of meat.
Of course, this all depends on your willingness to use the bible as a scientific resource. But I thought I'd mention it as you invoked the story of Noah and the flood.
I find Veganism too extreme, there's no real benefit to people or animals to cut out milk, eggs, cheese, honey, and other animal made products. First of all if we all became vegans tomorrow there would be a mass slaughter of farm animals because farmers couldn't afford to keep the animals alive and taken care of if they can't profit off the animal in some way. Second, chickens don't use unfertilized eggs, cows don't use extra milk after feeding their calves, and bee keepers take only the extra honey so that the colonies don't die. (I can understand somewhat being anti-honey because getting at the honey is a bother to the bees.) Furthermore if you leave unfertilized eggs they're just going to rot and make the animals sick, you have to clean out the eggs. The same with milk, it's painful for a cow to go without a milking. You have to milk the cow. I don't get why vegans think it's better to just dump the extra milk on the ground. I highly doubt the cows who you feed with your work, care for, and look after would mind you having the extra. (As long as you're caring for them properly.) It's clear that the best thing to do for animals and humans is to take care of them the right way, whether you eat their extra eggs or milk has no bearing on the well being of the animal. They aren't even aware of what we do with the extras we tote away, for all they know we throw them away as it is. Also arguing that we shouldn't be using animals at all and they should be free is moot. At this point there are tons of domesticated animals who can't just run off and survive, they've been in our care for centuries. If we released them into the wild a lot of the animals would die. It's our responsibility to care for them and without incentive to do so, most people won't take care of them right. So in reality dropping all animal products is more detrimental than cutting back on your meat intake or eliminating it and keeping products like eggs and milk in your diet. Hey, if vegans really want to see a mass culling continue to try and get everybody to quit all animal based products cold turkey.
You cannot be serious. You think farm animals would have to be slaughtered en masse if we all became vegans? They're already being slaughtered, just at a gradual pace. That's the only reason they're alive in the first place. It's not like they were caught in the wild. If we became vegans, farmers would simply reduce their production of animals and the population of farm animals would gradually shrink to keep in step with demand. I'm not even vegan and I think your argument is absurd.
I said if all people became vegan overnight, not gradually over time. Farm animals like dairy cows wouldn't be able to survive in the wild if they were just released from the farms. It would take a lot of money to place all the animals in a sanctuary and to continue to feed and care for them. If the demand went from where it is now to 0, what do you think would happen to the hundreds of thousands of animals who were being used to milk, eggs, or tomorrow's dinner? The farmers wouldn't waste their life savings placing those animals into sanctuaries, they'd be culled. Please do a better job reading what I say next time before you open your big mouth.
I can tell you've thought about this a bit and mean well, but unfortunately, you don't have all the facts about what goes on at factory farms to make chickens produce eggs non-stop and cows produce way more milk every day than they should, and all the mistreatment. And your other assumptions are unfortunately not accurate, either.
Cows only produce milk when they have a baby - like humans. And the milk is meant for the baby. So how do they get the cows to keep producing milk? They artificially inseminate them, separate the calf as soon as it's born - oh yeah - the baby calf is then tied on a 2ft rope, and then killed for Veal after its lived for a few weeks. Veal = murdered baby cow. SEE: http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/dairy-industry.aspx And on top of that, they pump the cow full of hormones to keep producing more milk.
And here's some info on how chickens are forced to lay eggs: http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/egg-industry.aspx NOT natural at all.
And here's a quick video you can watch (only 30 seconds, narrated by Alex Baldwin) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REPAeAH_fJ8
And check out Goveg.com for more info from Alec Baldwin, Natalie Portman, and Paul McCartney & others for other reasons to go Veg. Or just google "meet your meat" on youtube, or "undercover factory farm" or "undercover investigation at farm" on youtube.
If you take the time to get the true facts, you'll see things are unfortunately not how they were portrayed in the "Old MacDonald Had a Farm" nursery rhyme.
Why don't you go visit some REAL FARMS, instead of relying on PETA for your information? You'll find that the vast majority of farms are very humane places with happy animals. PETA doesn't show an accurate description, they show the worst of the worst; and furthermore, PETA has been caught staging some of their "abuse" videos in the past!
Are some calves from dairy cows killed for veal? Yes, some, the males most often. Others are sold to 4-H kids for bucket-calf project. The females are kept to grow up into adult dairy cows.
I never claimed the situation was free from issues, it's not. However, not eating milk and eggs won't help animals one bit. You're doing the animals and yourself a favor by eating milk and eggs from responsible sources. You're casting a vote every time you do for the good treatment of animals. There are plenty of places that provide quality milk and eggs from animal friendly sources.
I believe many types of cows have to be artificially inseminated because the meat oriented breeding has created animals unable to mate naturally. Yes veal is cruel, don't eat it. Get your milk from a source that cares for the animal. The good thing about cows is that after they are finished with their calf if you continue to milk them they continue to produce milk. Not only that but they have to be milked, it's uncomfortable for them to not be milked. Not using the milk doesn't help the animal.
Chickens are trickier, and you have to be careful where your get your eggs if you want to get them from a proper source. However even the fast food restaurants are starting to demand cage free eggs. If you want to help keep chickens from being abused by the food industry buy eggs from people who take care of their chickens. When you don't eat eggs at all you're letting the people who don't care about animals vote, the people who buy the carton of eggs from suspicious sources who keep chickens in tiny cages and boost egg production through artificial means. The very best thing you can do is vote against those people with your money. My point is that vegans care about animals but aren't smart with their actions. The very best way to promote positive change isn't by vegan extremism but by vastly reducing your meat consumption or going vegetarian and by buying milk, eggs, and other animal products from sources that care.
Also don't listen to Peta, for the love of all things good, Peta is a sham. They spend their funds on celebrity endorsements and ads and they do not do enough for the good of animals. If you want to support animal positive organizations support your local farmer's market farm or your local SPCA.
I'm all for vegan chicks who want protein....straight from the tap (lap?)
Giggity Giggity GIGGITY! LOL
Wow, how incredibly clever......for a 7th grader
Whatever, tool. Funny is funny. It doesn't need a dissertation and subtitles so that your limited intelligence can understand it. The people who laugh are who it was meant for, not twips like you.
well, thanks for the explanation, pendejo
Nimi shimi pek pogidaa
good one Beavis
I want a thick bloody rib eye steak
and a think bloody cut in your chest when they do the quadruple bypass
A weak response. The link between dietary cholesterol and serum cholesterol is tenuous at best, and although the link between serum cholesterol and arterial plaques is stronger, it isn't ironclad. Lots of folks have extremely high serum cholesterol even when their dietary intake is reduced to near zero, and lots of folks with chronically high serum cholesterol don't develop heart disease.
The problem is the saturated fat in the steak more so than the cholesterol.
someone mentioned if you have a vegan over you have to cook special why just make something that looks veganish and tell them it is they will never know the differance then laugh at them behind there back when they ate eggs milk or what ever you used to cook with they will be non the wiser and its a funny thing to do but on the other hand why would you want someone like this over for dinner in the first place...
This may mean I'm going to he!!, but that just cracked me up! The idea of doing that to my friend and her partner is hilarious. Especially since I get grief over the makeup and products I use that are tested on animals. Grrrrr.....
Like what? Do you judge your friend by their dietary choices? Grow the f up, little man
That is by far the rudest comment I have ever heard. And that is coming from a regular omnivore.
That's pretty heartless man. At the same time there could be a severe reaction depending on how long they have been vegan. My girlfriend has been vegan for some 3 or 4 years now and she accidentally had fish sauce at an Asian restaurant (thought it was soy sauce, the bottles weren't labelled). Anyway, she started throwing up minutes after ingesting the fish sauce. After going that long w/o animal products her body literally rejected the food.
Food for thought: the countries with the healthiest people that live the longest are Japan (1), Andorra (2) Sweden, Iceland, Switzerland, Germany and even Australia. The Japanese eat lots of seafood. People in Andorra eat sausages and cheeses. In Iceland, they eat meat, fat and lots of dairy.
True. But they get WAY more exercise compared to Americans, they eat within their caloric limit and they don't consume 20 ounces of meat a day. In those countries meat is eaten in moderation and as necessary.
So the problem isn't meat versus non-meat; it's meat versus quantity.
So maybe the real healthy diet is less meat and more exercise. Although the people in Iceland eat mostly seafood and dairy. That may also be a factor.
Great. We're raising more of the "holier than thou" troup. You haven't lived until you've had a vegan over for dinner, it's a nightmare to figure out what to make. And would they make non-vegan food for dinner if you were coming over? Ha!
Only hope is that these kids will be teased into a more rational lifestyle.
*facepalm* you advocate bulling too? Aren't you a gem.
It isn't really that hard to cook vegan-friendly dishes (and this is coming from a devout carnivore). Whenever I have dinner parties I make sure to find out if anyone has any specific dietary requirements and plan my menu accordingly. I love to cook, and trying new dishes is fun and educational. If all else fails, just ask your vegan guest for suggestions. I have found that most people are pretty understanding and will be tickled that you, as host, show concern for them. Learning about new dishes is rarely a bad thing, and your guest might even offer to lend a hand. A win-win!
I completely agree with you. Does it really hurt anyone to cook a new dish? And why would someone seriously judge another person on their food habits anyway? So what, we don't eat the same foods, who cares?
Actually I know more non-vegans who are insulting and critical of the vegan lifestyle than vegans who have the "holier than thou" attitude. Not to say that they don't exist but that is an incorrect generalization. You probably eat a lot of vegan things and don't know it. And it is pretty easy to cook vegan. You know that chili that you make with meat? Leave the meat out and add beans. That spaghettil with meatballs? prepare your meatballs in a different pot and keep the marinara separate. Gosh...that was difficult. I think that if you were coming over to dinner and had specific lifestyle choices that you had made regarding your own personal diet, any rational vegan would be understanding. People really do fear what they don't understand.
I completely agree with you! People are so resistant to something different, even if the difference is miniscule or unimportant. And chances are if a vegan is going over to someone's house for dinner and their friend does not have enough decency to make a separate dish for them, those people are not friends to start with. Who would want to be friends with someone who is stuck in their own butt?
Isn't pasta made with eggs?
I'm still trying to decide if this was a trolling attempt....
If it's not, I want to point out that there is no reason for a vegan to have to cook non-vegan foods to have an omnivore over. As everything that is vegan is also within the realm of what an omnivore would eat.
Well said!
You TOTALLY missed the point of the comment.
Any vegan I have ever had over for dinner completely expected that I would provide a vegan friendly meal for them. Its expected, and rightly so, that the host will provide a meal in keeping with a person's diatary wants, needs, and concerns. The opposite NEVER holds true when attending a dinner party hosted by vegans. I, as more of a carnivorous omnivor (I eat my vegies, but more flesh than vegitable), expect some form of flesh at a meal. I have never been to a dinner party hosted by vegan friends where there was any thought to provide me with my wanted/rquired meat.
If you are going to a vegan party why don't you just eat some meat before you go? People don't really "require" meat in their diets. If they prefer meat that is great. I hope you understand how much meat you actually need to eat in one day. It isn't as much as most Americans believe.
I was raised vegetarian and trust me, you don't want me cooking meat for you. I have absolutely no idea how to cook anything involving meat. Just saying. ;) You'll get a very delicious meal at my house that will just happen to not include meat.
I agree with LifelongVege. You do not want a vegan/vegetarian cooking meat for you! People who eat meat also eat vegetables and unless they have a specific health issue it isn't a problem for them to eat a vegan/vegetarian dish. A vegan/vegetarian is not used to digesting meat, and if they have it they can become seriously ill. A final thought. If you find it so irritating to share meals with people who eat differently than you, perhaps you should just not do it. Eating should be fun, and stress is not good for anyone!
I don't believe I missed the point of the post. I'm sorry that your vegan friends seem to expect you to not cook meat when they're there. That's rude. But I have friends who are perfectly fine just eating from a side dish or two that I have that's vegan friendly. Or they offer to bring a dish to pass...which they can eat.
I can't imagine there are that many meat eaters who wouldn't enjoy a vegan meal or two. There's a lot more out there than the bland soy/veggie patties. Just throw together a wonderful fresh stirfry. Have a salad full of veggies, fruit and nuts/seeds. Any type of roasted potato dish made with acceptable oils and spices.
I, too, lost weight when I temporarily "converted" to veganism. Quite honestly, it was because all the vegan food I tried to eat was too awful to chew and swallow. So, if all you can ingest daily is 700 or 800 calories – and that was pasta, pasta, pasta because soy milk is too disgusting to eat with cereal – you lose weight. I was cranky, miserable and lost my zest. By the way, I don't eat food-wannabe of any kind, which is what much of what passes for vegan meals is. Read the ingredient label ....
It sounds like you hadn't really researched how to eat healthfully on a vegan diet, or you didn't have the time to prepare certain dishes. Eating just pasta isn't really good for anyone, omnivores and vegans alike. A vegetable stir fry with nuts and quinoa, however, doesn't take much more time and is extremely healthy.
wow. sounds very well researched.
Yeah, I try to make vegan meals quite frequently and they are always super flavorful and nutritious. I think the consumption of huge amounts of carbs is one of the most misunderstood things about vegetarianism, there are other foods out there besides pasta, salad and cheese pizza.
At my house, you'll eat what I cook or you had better eat before you arrive. We eat meat at my house and I'm not making some wacky meal for some nut!
Very mature
Soo, you won't even make a meal for yourself?! Ohhhhhhhhhhhh
So you never make a vegetable side dish to go with your main couse meat? There's no need to completely change what you would normally make....unless you never eat fruits and vegetables. Which is terribly unhealthy.
The eating bit of it doesn't bother me that much. I'm actually much more appalled at the fact that she can't wait for more pleather shoes. Because that's awesome for the environment and doesn't use natural resources or fill up landfills....
You're missing the point. Buying non-leather shoes isn't about the environment, it's about making a moral choice vis-a-vis animals. Protecting the environment is also important, of course. Lots of other things are also important. That's not what this choice is about.
Actually, the article mentions an illustration of polar bears huddled on an ice sheet. If the author wants to use environmentalism as part of her argument, pointing out her hypocrisy seems perfectly fair.
The environmental damage caused by animals used for leather is probably the same or worse than that caused by petroleum-based materials. Also who said vegan shoes had to be pleather, there are plenty of other more earth-friendly and biodegradable materials that could be used. I own several pairs myself and none are pleather.
@Actually – The environmental impact of factory plant farms is at least as great as that of factory animal farms.
The only way children can be vegan is if their parents are vegan or highly supportive of it. Then they'll make sure the child gets enough nutrients. You also have to be prepared for the social repercussions. Unfortunately, there's a huge social stigma attached to being vegan. My mother's friend is vegan, and every time she comes to visit, all my mother does is complain about how hard it is to find a restaurant to go to, or figure out what to cook at home. I imagine in other social circles its the same way. If you have the support network to do it, I'm all for it. I do not, however, appreciate being told that I should be vegan and being called "uninformed" or "ignorant" or "stupid" for choosing not to. I HAVE read all about the treatment of animals, seen the pictures, and watched the videos. I get it. But, frankly, I would rather spend my time and money on issues and problems in this world that I personally think are more important at the moment than how we treat our food. That is MY choice. Please respect that choice as I respect yours.
Well said Ashley. In the end, it's all about making informed personal choices and respecting the fact that other people have the right to make their own choices as well.
Agreed. I think it's a serious lack of respect on both sides of the fence.
Ashley: Good post. I am not a vegan, but I am a long term vegetarian (33+ years). I don't preach on it to people, and don't put them down for not doing what I do. That being said, those who want to call me stupid for my choice can go fvck themselves. I am a gym rat, and an ultramarathoner. And, I do not need dietary advice from people who can't do my workouts.
Someday, one of my kind will probably eat you.
Good luck with that, Scott.
Same thing here Rick. I am not necessarily a vegetarian because I will still eat wild game and sustainable fish but I eat vegetarian about 90% of the time. I do not try to convert people in the same way that I do not try to convert people to my religion. I seriously don't understand why people care so much about what other people eat.
I totally agree about the respect aspect.
Many years ago I found out a friend of mine had gone vegetarian. At first I worried about making sure there were choices she could eat any time we ate out or I entertained. I talked to her about her food choices and she told me it's not my job to make sure she eats. That kind of attitude really made a difference to me. And I've found that most of my vegetarian and vegan friends have the same outlook.
Luckily it's becoming more common for most restaurants to have at least vegetarian options on the menus.
i wish more vegetarians were like your friend. we (group of 10) have amongst our circle a friend who is vegetarian and she's an absolute nightmare. every time we want to try a new menu, she complains that there aren't enough vegetarian options. and she complains that she doesn't like whatever vegetarian options they have. we always end up going to restaurants that are her choice, to respect her lifestyle. at this point, we're just going to stop inviting her out.
Yah...that sounds like it sucks. I have a different vegetarian friend who is much like that. She says she's an ovo/pesce vegetarian. um...but she doesn't like vegetables. So unless there's a seafood alfredo or rice dish on the menu she complains.
Needless to say, she's doing it wrong. And we don't end up at the same dinners very often.
Great post Ashley, and I agree with you completely. If someone wants to live a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle (I have friends who fall into both categories), I am completely supportive. However, if those same people start attacking and harassing me over my choice to live a non vegan/vegetarian lifestyle I have no use for them whatsoever. Respect is a two-way street.
they'll make sure their kids get adequate nutrition if the parents are vegans who follow the lifestyle nutritiously themselves. Unfortunately, there are an awful lot of vegans who don't follow a nutritious and healthy diet (being vegan/vegetarian isn't in and of itself a healthy diet, and way too many people have no common sense)
there are also a lot of omnivores who don't follow a healthy diet. I think that many vegans are actually healthier because they've done the research on what nutrients to eat and how to get said nutrients from a plant-based diet.
Excellent post! I am veggie myself, but do not scold others for eating meat. I researched and made a choice for my health, others can do whatever they wish. I hardly think harping on anyone will change anyone's mind.
Respect is when your personal choice does not harm other sentient beings. When your choice of food based on ignorance is contributing to the hyper-confinement, mutilation, lifelong pain and suffering and death of millions upon millions of innocent beings whose voice will never be heard, my speakig out for them is advocacy. Knowing the truth and remaining silent because I is not popular to stand up for the weak is cowardice or worst apathy.
Soyan – Respect is accepting other people's choices and lifestyles WITHOUT lecturing them. I have read your posts and far too many of them take the "holier-than-thou" approach towards those who are not vegans. Your post is disrespectful and your attitude is what makes people combative.
I'm not vegan but I am vegetarian. While you are much better off not eating meat for health reasons I think that 100% veganism is quit extreme. I eat vegan at least 3 times a week not even trying, but can't give up cheese, eggs or butter. Animal proteins are overrated by the FDA to help out the meat industry and are proven to add to risk of heart disease, high blood pressure etc. I was recently discussing this issue with a friend who had just read the book 'The China Study' which looks at the diets and health of Asians compared to Americans. While most Americans eat 40+ grams of protein a day many Asians eat less than 15 grams. They have a much lower rate of heart disease, cancer etc., which can be linked to animal proteins. The body can much more readily absorb plant proteins with out all the harmful affects of meat and the meat industry.
You have been misled, unfortunately. Eating meat can very well be part of a healthy diet. It's what we've done to some of our meat that is unhealthy (feeding inappropriate diets, pumping full of hormones and antibiotics, etc.) Choosing organic grass-fed meat is a very healthy option.
If you want to know the real culprit responsible for poor health, it's abundance of grains and sugar.
The China Study has been thoroughly debunked.
http://rawfoodsos.com/the-china-study/
http://feastingonfitness.blogspot.com/2010/04/study-everyone-talks-about-part-1.html
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/cancer/the-china-study-vs-the-china-study/
Absolutely true AJ. Factory farmed meat is the biggest culprit in meat being unhealthy. I haven't read The China Study myself or any of the debunking materials you referenced. While I personally believe that a diet without meat is most healthy and the best option for myself I don't have problems with anyone eating whatever they wish. I just don't believe that an animal should die so that I can eat it when there are so many other options to choose from.
AJ, are these scientific sites? From the looks of the URL's, it looks more like opinion-type blogs/sites. But it never hurts to get a second view at any kind of study. But I was curious about the sources.
Maybe these will pass muster as scientific:
http://healthland.time.com/2010/05/17/cured-smoked-meat-linked-with-heart-disease-risk
Quote:
Researchers at the Harvard School of Public Health sifted through more than 1,600 studies, ultimately identifying 20 that investigated the link between meat consumption and disease risk in more than 1.2 million people. They found that, while eating processed meats such as cold cuts, sausage and bacon was associated with a 42% higher risk of heart disease, they didn’t identify any increased risk from eating unprocessed beef, pork or lamb.
Study authors say that this is the first major analysis of international data examining the impact of both processed and unprocessed meat consumption — and distinguishing between the impact of the two — on risk for both heart disease and diabetes. According to the analysis, individuals who regularly consumed processed meats had a 19% higher risk for developing type 2 diabetes on average, but again, researchers noted no elevated risk for the condition among those who ate unprocessed red meats.
...
The amount of saturated fat and cholesterol in processed meats is comparable to that in unprocessed meats, the researchers say, but the amount of preservatives — and sodium in particular — is significantly higher for processed meats. While previous studies have linked red meat consumption to increased risk for cardiovascular disease and certain types of cancer, authors of this new study point out that previous research has not distinguished between processed and unprocessed meats.
Here's another: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=carbs-against-cardio
Further food for thought: http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6823/5/10
nepawoods...good citations. There are so many, it's hard to know where to start.
The original poster is comparing the AMOUNT of meat not the type of meat. Big difference. Westerners eat far more meat than all the other humans on the planet.
Mona, read the book "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" by Weston Price DDS
I think overconsumption of all of those things is to be blamed here, not that they are simply being consumed.
Interesting post. I'll have to look for that book.
I'm fully aware that the US has a high rate of heart disease and it's linked to animal protein. But I wonder how different those percentages would be if you just looked at a group of people who are omnivorous but don't over eat on the protein? If you had two groups being studied. One following a good omnivorous diet and one following a vegan diet...would the numbers be that different?
I just wonder how much the numbers are skewed because there are so many people who just eat an unhealthy diet that includes meat.
Ally...I think that might be the real issue. Healthy diets come in many forms. I have worked in China in the middle of no where. Where I was, the people live long lives and eat anything that moves...this includes bamboo rats, bats, and insects. They eat lots of white rice and some vegetables. They move a lot. That might be another factor in their long life.
And I'd hazard a guess that the bamboo rats were a healthier choice than any farm raised meat. As someone who grew up with a steady supply of venison; wild game not only keeps the "tortured animals" aspect out of it, but the meat is also leaner.
Ally...you are right. Bamboo rat and wild water buffalo is very good..a little tough, but good. I also grew up eating game. Game and grass fed beef all taste so much better. The feed lot stuff is just horrible.
I'm sorry but to force this lifestyle on children is borderline child abuse. What if someone chose an all meat diet for their child but "supplemented" it with necessary vitamins. You'd have a front page story on your hands and the parents would be in jail. How is this different. I'm not on to really care much what people do so long as is doesn't bother me, but kids are exceptions. Funny how all the "open minded" thinkers out there who are vegans/vegetarians themselves don't (or wouldn't) let their children make the same choices they did themselves. No, to them it's not a choice. As far as I'm concerned, once you're an adult do what makes you happy, more delicious steak for me, but kids shouldn't be mandated to eat the same food as their parents any more than they should be mandated to think/vote/act/etc. like them. It's would be like saying son, you have to buy a Toyota because daddy and mommy drive a Toyota. Use your brains folks.
Joel, check the comments. There are quite a few vegan parents with healthy children. Of course we push our beliefs on our children - that's not child abuse, unless someone is harmed and there's no evidence that these children are harmed by this diet. Kids can be vegan and it sounds like this author is probably conscientious about giving her kids the nutrition they need. What you're posting is like saying parents who push Christianity on children are abusing them. When kids get older, they can make their own choices. For now, they're minors, and like all parents, these parents are expecting their kids to live the same lifestyle they do.
A friend of mine who had been in the foster care system for much of her childhood once told me that the majority of families she stayed with consistently ate Tv dinners–for every meal. I'm sorry but to force this lifestyle on children is borderline child abuse. Funny how all the "open minded" thinkers out there who are Tv-dinner-ians themselves don't (or wouldn't) let their children make the same choices they did themselves. No, to them it's not a choice.
Kids shouldn't be mandated to eat the same food as their parents any more than they should be mandated to think/vote/act/etc. like them.
Also, parents should not be able to force their children to attend religious services, since religion is a choice they can choose to make once they are independent-thinking adults.
Eating tv dinners is not even borderlining borderline child abuse. Not feeding your child what your doctor says your child truly needs does come close. Thanks for playing.
Well unless your doctor recommends very little nutrition and copious amounts of sodium, yes tv dinners could be considered borderline child abuse.
LOL... Allie, I thoroughly believe forcing kids to go to church is child abuse! My mom made me go until I turned 16 and I couldn't WAIT to get free of that!
I think it depends on the age of the child. A 6 or 7 year old has no clue about nutrition and therefore should not be allowed to pick and choose what they wish to eat. Many people grew up eating what their parents fed them until they were old enough to either leave home or buy their own food. While it may be nice that some people feel that have the time and money to prepare different meals for different family members, most parents do not have the time or the money to indulge their children in this manner. Besides, teaching your children to accept the food that is offered (barring allergies) instills humility and tolerance, not to mention they make much better house guests.
Joel, you asked "How is this different?"
It's different because following a vegan diet can give you all the nutrients you require, unlike following a meat-only diet. It's difficult to do it without any supplements. And from what I've read, even tougher to get a very small child everything they need.
But I don't see a vegan having to pop a B12 pill instead of eating meat that big of a deal. How many meat-eating people take all sorts of supplements too?
How is it wrong to teach children about nutrition? Yet you think it is OK to teach children that if they "sin" they will burn in hell for eternity? Oh please. You tell your kids that eating candy bars are bad for them don't you? Then what is wrong with telling them the truth that eating animals is bad for them as well? I have 5 healthy children, and we eat vegan as a family. But if our children want to eat animal products we let them. But we don't lie to them and say it is good for them. The real child abuse in this country is the parents who let their children drink soda for every meal.
I don't know that I'd go so far as to say meat is bad for you. Eating too much meat is bad for you. And some types of meat are worse than others.
That makes no sense. We are vegan, so obviously there are no animal products in our house. Why would we buy something we don't eat just to give to our child. If you know anything about nutrition, you would know that you can get a complete and balanced diet without animal products. Our son is not our slave, so if someday he chooses to eat meat, that is his perogative. He just won't get it from us. And for the record, he is 26 months old about 39" tall and about 36/37 lbs. He is off the charts for growth for his age. He is very healthy, extremely energetic, and exceptionally smart. I do not think he is lacking anything.
Giving your kids meat to eat is also "forcing a lifestyle" on them.
At some level, almost everything parents do to/for thier children is "forcing a lifestyle" on them. Children only gradually develop the ability to make thier own decisions. Parents making decisions for them isn't inherently right or wrong, that's just the process of parenting.
Dr. Spock (yes, the DR. SPOCK) was OK with a vegan diet for children of all ages. He was vegan in his latter years. He was not OK with a meat only diet.
I believe Dr. Spock was a child behavior specialist, not a nutritionist. World of difference where education is concerned. I wouldn't go to a psychologist to get advice on how to manage arrhythmia, would you?
Humans evolved to eat meat/dairy. Period. If you don't eat meat/dairy you will not be healthy. Every vegan I know looks washed out.
Ridiculous. I am vegan and I am 6'3" and 205lbs. I'd actually like to lose a little weight, but the vegan dishes my wife cooks are too good. My son is 26 months old, 39" tall and 36/37lbs. He has had no meat, and virtually no dairy or eggs (I am sure he has had a little when we have been out). He has been off the charts for growth his whole life and is very healthy. My mother is vegan, 66 years old, and is out dancing several nights a week. My brother is vegetarian and is very athletic for his mid-30s.
I've been an omnivore my entire life. I am 6'10", weigh 190, no allergies, low cholesterol, no health problems at all. I lead an active lifestyle and am in better shape than most of the people I know. Vegans are not healthier. Omnivores are not healthier. Some vegans and some omnivores alike are healthier than most people who eat crappy diets.
I've been vegan for 2 years, I'm 6 foot, 215 pounds, and I can lift more weight and run faster than I could when I was a meat eating 21 year old. When I was 21, my best dumbbell back row lift was 135 pounds. Now, I can take a 175 pound dumbbell from the ground and lift it to my chest 5 times. I gain more strength every week. No more protein shakes, or 5 pieces of chicken every day. Cholesterol free.
Why is this happening? Well, for one, raw foods with near 100% nutrient absorption. But #2, I don't get winded anymore. My arteries are clear like a newborns, so oxygen transfer is immediate.
I love when people make fun of vegans, because it's my secret weapon in sports, business, and life.
anon: you got to increase your sample size
Absolute rubbish. Animals eat other animals. Some plants eat animals. It's a normal, natural part of the cycle of life. I get the small farm movement and stopping abuse of animals, but seriously... enforcing your arbitrary gastronomical decision on your kid is wrong.
Seek health and nutrition by natural means. Animal protien is valuable in the human diet. Having a moral objection to it is about as silly as buycotting vegetables because "they're made to stand in line and fed chemicals until we cut their heads off!"
Do you/did you raise your children with your values? How does one parent if not allowed to use the family's values as a guide?
Veganism is not a 'value'. It's not morally wrong to eat.
Seriously? Are you really saying that plants can be compared to animals in their ability to feel pain, anguish, fear? You don't have to subscribe to a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle (I don't personally although I respect it) but your argument against it is gravely flawed.
Plants ARE life forms. Harming one life form is the same as harming another. You just put animals in a special category because they are 'cute'. What about bugs? Can we eat bugs? Many people around the world do. Fish don't feel pain. What about them?
You chat with a Buddhist to see how that works.
Unless you're being sarcastic, then never mind.
You are making my point.
You NEED TO chat ...
\facepalm\
Facepalm yourself. You're delusonal. Life is life. Animals eat other life forms. Only plants are innocent and Vegans kill them.
All parents raise their children with the values they believe in. Christians raise their children to be Christian, Environmentalists raise their children to be environmentally responsible, honest parents raise their children not to lie, and vegan parents raise their children to be vegan. We all hope that they absorb our values, but we realize that they will choose their own paths in life.
After studying the research at length (at length!), my husband and I made a decision for our family. Our children will be 17 and 15 next month, and they have been vegan their entire lives. I don't understand why someone who has not spent a tremendous amount of time digging through the available research would be comfortable criticizing the parenting choices of others and checking a box in judgment of parents on an issue that they only have a gut feeling about.
I agree Robin. I'm not a vegan but do my best to make conscious choices about what food I take into my body. If more people actually did the research on the food industry, there would be many more vegans in this country. Out of site, out of mind. The FDA is corrupt and supports big agriculture. The only way to stay informed is to research individually. There's nothing wrong with parents wanting to ensure their children are eating healthy. Most of the items in big grocery store chains are not healthy. By the time they get to the shelf, they've lost a lot of the nutrients the label says they have.
I am a Vegan. I am a decorated veteran, in my forties, and slightly overweight. I drink beer, I struggled with cigarettes for years (finally stopped last year after nearly thirty years of smoking). I do not go around preaching about my lifestyle, but when offered a burger or bacon or even some chips (!), i just say, "NO Thanks", but I invariably hear, "why?. My veganism is because I have seen firsthand the destruction of human life, and all meat is the same to me now. I have even worked on a relatives pig farm since becoming vegan, and the conditions in the media are real, and reprehensible. That being said, I take no supplements, I find them uncomfortable. I became Vegan during chemotherapy, and am now in full remission, mot likely due to my diet; also, I had a recent surgery to rebuild my back, and my recovery time was the fastest that my surgeon has ever seen, even prompting my surgeon to become a holy roller type vegan (ask his nurses). Doctors worldwide are touting the health effects of this diet, and studies such as Harvard are showing the detrimental effects of dairy, beef, pork, poultry, and even fish. HOWEVER, I do not go around preaching this, like Ruby Roth. Showing children the truth about animals in the food chain and drug industry is not evil, but Zoos, Aquariums and Circuses run humanely are bastions of the genetic diversity of the planet, and the animals are "working" as it were to obtain there keep. PETA and such groups are reprehensible, as PETA is probably the number one group when it comes to euthanasia, and I have never been able to figure out how naked woman are supposed to be representative of exploitation, as I was raised that even if it is self exploitation to use sex for profit (getting out 'the message') it is still exploitative, and that is what Newkirk's group is supposed to be about. The facts are this: Veganism is a viable choice, most who live on a plant based diet enjoy health, vigor, and a new lease on life (ask Bill Clinton). Meat eating is a viable choice for most, and I am NOT here to tell the majority hat to do, but to think about it (and, PS, it is NOT WRONG to ingest meat or animal products). Proper nutrition of all kinds, including the B-complex, Omegas and such are obtainable from non-obscure sources, you just need a bit of education in the modern world. Children raised Vegan tend to be healthy, as, like most parents, Vegan parents want what is best for their children. I think that most mainstream dietary America is exposed to veganism is through PETA or that kid they knew in school that that potato chips lettuce and ramen were a viable diet for sustenance, or worse yet, that person or two that has an eating disorder that is masked by calling it "Vegetarianism" . My friends who are Vegan (friends, not acquaintances) are healthy, well balanced adults and children, and actually tend to know quite a bit about human nutrition and development. PS, most despise the militants and you should's of the activist groups. Almost as much as we despise those who tell us that we (or our children) cannot get the proper nutrition from our diet. Get it together people, if you are healthy, then your diet is right. IF you are healthy.
I think the title of this article is quite ironic.....we are questioning if kids can understand love and compassion, yet have no problems showing them or exposing them to violent programming right from the start through animated movies down to the fairytales, which always involved some kind of fear and negativity based themes, not to mention violence. Or how about questioning the habits of parents that affect millions of malnourished children who are being brought up on sodas, refined sugar and processed and fast food. As it so often happens.... we are being distracted by the wrong stuff, while corporations and factory farms continue to poison and take advantage of people and this planet whether you are an animal product eater, or vegan/vegetarian. We need to focus and come together to drive change that will benefit all, not bicker over personal evolution lifestyle choices.
In response to the idea that meat and animal products must be good for us because humans have all the "equipment" (read: sharp teeth) of our hunter-gatherer ancestors, I think it's important to acknowledge that we are not eating the same kinds or quality of meat today that was eaten so many years ago. Animals (in general) and cattle (in particular) are fed and prepared much differently than they were "in the beginning." Meat and animal products today are filled with unnatural and sometimes harmful chemicals and products that science is showing can be very damaging to our bodies. Vegan or not, that's something to consider. Another thing to consider: portion size. I would venture to say that our ancestors were not eating the HUGE volume of red meat and dairy products that we consume today.
I've watched the documentary "Forks Over Knives" and was blown away by the science that isn't being reported in the mainstream media about the link between animal products and cancers, not to mention overall health in general. Whether I go full vegan or not is yet to be determined, but my understanding of moderation when it comes to meat and dairy products will absolutely change.
Michelle – Most factory farm grown produce is also adulterated with nasty things, not the least of which is genetic manipulation. 80% of all corn in the world is GMO. These genes are making their way through our digestive tracts into our bodies and causing the same or worse problems than the animals which are injected with hormones, etc. The world food supply is a scary thing right now, whether it be meat or plant. Fortunately, these nasties can be avoided by buying locally produced, organic meats and produce. This is a win for whichever diet people choose to eat.
I'm surprised at the false information being thrown about by both sides of the issue!
Of course it's more challenging for someone to get all the required nutrients when they're vegan, but it's possible. It just takes more effort at menu planning.
And just because people eat meat doesn't mean they are immoral or automatically fat. Every meat/dairy source isn't automatically a factory farm.
I totally agree. What you eat is a very personal decision and it is completely feasible to get all required nutrients and maintain a healthy weight, whether you are vegan, vegetarian, or not. People just need to learn to look in their own plates and stop judging others' eating habits.
Why do I have canine teeth? Have millions of years of high-primate evolution led me wrong? I am an ominvorous creature by my very nature.
No reason to think that either diet is "wrong".
My point is that vegans and people who eat meat can both be equally healthy as long as they are correctly following that particular diet.
Nate, no offense, but your canines are tiny and inefficient compared to the canines of carnivores. Also, we cook our meat because we find it offensive raw (or most of us do, LOL), and because our little canines can't tear it apart easily.
No, we evolved to cook our meat (and other foods including starchy roots and tubers) in order to get the max caloric and nutrient benefit out of them. It had nothing to do with texture or taste. While cooking destroys some nutrients, it also makes others more bio-available. People eat raw meats all the time. Steak tartare, sushi/sashimi, ceviche, Hawaiian poke, etc.
And here I was thinking that the reason we cooked our meat was for sanitation reasons. I personally think the rarer a steak, the better tasting it is. And my tiny little canines have no problem.
I have noticed though that my digestive system, though capable of handling meat, does seem to have issues with vegetables. Seriously, switch your diet to nothing but raw vegetables and you'll starve. We can handle fruits, nuts and meat, but veggies, not so much. Only the very easy to digest ones. We're not made to handle them without heavy processing first.
Also, those screaming about heart disease, fun fact. The country with the highest rate of heart disease on earth? India. The country with the most vegetarians on earth, has the highest rate of heart disease. Why? Because of the massive amount of vegetable oil used in their curries.
Chris...Thanks for a response that included factual information instead of just feelings. Feeling are fine, but they are not proof.
the author isn't limiting her disdain to factory farming – she includes pictures of lab animals oozing form sores (despite her claiming her book is 100% accurate, that depiction of animals used for medical research is not accurate). I have no problems with people being vegan or raising their children as such (provided they follow a healthy vegan diet) but I do have a problem with the scare tactic (look they eat meat or they use medication so that means they think animal torture is OK) as it's over the top in its need to indoctrinate. It's bad enough we have teens and college students becoming chip & dip vegans (let's just say not all vegans follow a healthy diet) but can you imagine your 7-year old coming home from her vegan friend's house where they've read this book and refusing to take any medication that they need because they're now convinced animals were tortured during research?
I agree. While I'm fine with books being written about veganism and why some choose that lifestyle; it does bother me that the book seems to portray eating meat is always wrong. I haven't read the book so I don't know how much it might cover the humane sources of meat and dairy. As for the medical experiment animals and poor conditions at factory farms...yes. It does happen. But neglecting to tell the whole story doesn't seem 100% right either.
Ya'll are hilarious. So many anecdotes and absolutely not a single shred of research done among the vegan-haters. I mean, you've heard of GOOGLE, right? Oh, but wait. Doing that would challenge your whole life view and I understand that you'd want to shield yourself from anything that would force you to do that.
You want more anecdotes? Here you go. I've been vegan for years. And years. And years. My husband? Vegan for 17 years. He's a long distance cyclist. In the 11 years we've been together, he's been sick twice with a cold. I don't remember the last time I felt anything other than totally healthy. I come from a Hungarian background, people who ate a lot of meat and sour cream. Never felt better than when I started eating a plant based diet, and my conscience never felt cleaner knowing I don't support animals being born and raised to die for slaughter. We are both rosy cheeked, I'm a curvy lady with soft skin and shiny hair. So enough of this "All vegans look sick" nonsense. You're just making shit up to feel better about how shitty your choices are. Veganism4life. I'll be raising our future children vegan, and I anticipate they'll be as healthy as all the vegan children I know.
Excellent reply Crystal. I have been Vegan with my husband for almost 5 years and never felt better, and second the part about not getting sick since, not even with the common cold. It is so awesome – wish we awoke to this sooner.
Do you really believe that your vegan diet has prevented you from getting a virus?
You have your beliefs Bill, and I have mine. As long as yours serve you and mine serve me, we can each continue our own happy lives :)
Evita: Then do not post you beliefs on a blog if you do not expect a comment. Especially when they are ridiculous.
Not prevention in the sense of a vaccine but absolutely in that eating more plants means ingesting more antioxidants (i.e. quercetin) will definitely neutralize free radicals/reactive oxygen species that damage cells. When the body is equipped with the right "ammunition" to fight foreign invaders such as bacteria/viruses and also has an effective way of repairing itself, one may see a stronger immune system.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2771803
Start with this one.
Anytime you saying you are focusing on a choice of eating because you feel it is healither is walking the line of Orthorexia. This isn't to be confused with healthy eating. When personal belief is attached to a style of eating and the drive for perfection is is Orthorexia. The main problem with Veganism is it is a borderline eating disorder with a majority harping on healthier eating.
If the entire world were to become vegan all at once, there is not enoug arable land to support the world. What is the energy transfer ratio of plants to meat? the diagram for this is show in most 6th grade science clases. It features grass, and bugs eating grass and cows eating grass. It shows the loss of energy along the way showing that consumption of meat is the least effective way to gain energy but it also shows that humans lack the ability to process plants with our current saliva glands and teeth to gain the energy other animals do from plants.
Being a vegan is fine as long as you are only being a vegan and not forcing others to believe want you want to believe through manipulation. A childrens book on veganism is manipulation because a child has not developed to understand the concepts. Veganism is in most cases glorified and worn a badge. Just because vegans get a utility of happiness for doing what they want doesn't mean they are correct or better than anyone else the minute they believe that they are suffering from orthorexia.
Then I guess you don't bother washing your hands, since your magical diet renders you immune to viral infections.
You can Google all you want, but 99% of what you read is garbage. You need to read sources like accepted medical journals. Any pediatrician will tell you that a Vegan diet is not appropriate for children.
sorry Bill, but #1: pediatricians do not study nutrition in med school and #2: my pediatrician has no issue with my child's vegan lifestyle. she is turning 10 and never gets sick, is in the 90th percentile for height and weight.
There are a variety of medical journals on this specific topic in from many respected sources. They are easy to look up, and I suggest you have your pediatrician look them up. Second, case by case does not give you an accurate picture. This is the whole point of a study; a large pool of individuals and doing a comparison. Those comparisons clearly state that for the average parent, it is difficult to get the proper nutrition from a vegan diet. This does not mean that it is not possible.
http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/156/5/431#RREF-POA10282-34
"Adolescent vegetarians have a dietary pattern that is more likely than nonvegetarians to meet the Healthy People 2010 objectives."
"Some vegetarians eat no animal products (vegans), whereas others include milk products (lactovegetarians) or eggs (ovovegetarians). "
http://www.eatright.org/about/content.aspx?id=8357
"It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases."
http://pedsinreview.aappublications.org/content/25/5/174.extract
"Multiple experts have concluded independently that vegan diets can be followed safely by infants and children without compromise of nutrition or growth and with some notable health benefits."
(American Academy of Pediatrics)
But Bill, you were right about one thing. 99% of what you read *is* garbage. That's why I prefer to read the science and ignore the bill. I mean bull. :)
Robin: Your first two articles are about Vegatarians, not Vegans. Your third article, which says little of anything, and makes no distinction between Vegan and Vegetarian. Try again.
Bill, your comment was:
"Any pediatrician will tell you that a Vegan diet is not appropriate for children."
I simply demonstrated that the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Medical Association, and the American Dietetic Association clearly do NOT support that point of view. If a pediatrician chose to assert that a vegan diet is not appropriate for children, s/he would obviously be doing so without the support of the most prominent certifying and professional organizations from which they should be getting their information.
Where is your support for your assertion?
"...99% of what you read is garbage."
"Any pediatrician will tell you that a Vegan diet is not appropriate for children."
Ironic
That is fundamentally untrue. We have been to several pediatricians, and not one has said don't raise our child vegan. They have asked us a few questions about what we eat, and generally stop writing after about 15 seconds because they realize we know what we are talking about. I know I have posted several times, but my son is 26 months old, 39" tall and about 36/37 lbs. He is a fantastically healthy toddler, who is 99.9% vegan.
I've been an omnivore my entire life. I am 6'10", weigh 190, no allergies, low cholesterol, no health problems at all. I lead an active lifestyle and am in better shape than most of the people I know. Vegans are not healthier. Omnivores are not healthier. Some vegans and some omnivores alike are healthier than most people who eat crappy diets. :)
I read all these comments and I was surprised no one mentioned round-up ready crops! That's what scares me about the whole vegan/vegetarian thing. What is their primary source of protein if not from meat? Soy. What is the largest Round-Up ready crop in the US? Soy. This means the the crop is so genetically modified that it can withstand the herbicides and pesticides that farmers spray so the crop will grow. Most of the crops have also been GMOed so they are sterile so the farmers have to buy seeds every year. That's what your to-furkey is made of. If vegans/vegetarians are not REALY careful where their products are coming from, they can't argue its any better than the hormones in animals. Look at the big Kashi scandal that just surfaced. I can buy local eggs and meat that I know was raised humanely without meds and hormones...how many grow soy crops and process tofu?
Yeah, not even Asians eat as many soy products as those which are consumed here in the US and Europe. Plus, they tend to stick with small amounts of fermented soy, not drink milks made from it, cook their food in soybean oil, and add it to just about every food they make. The prevalence of soy products in food is scary.
You know nothing about Asia, do you? They drink soy milk all the time.
And anyway, being vegan sort of forces you to make meals from scratch. I KNOW how much soy I consume, as opposed to processed-food-eaters who eat soy isolate in probably everything they eat. I'd bet money the average vegan consumes LESS soy than someone on a SAD diet.
Good point, but what do think the feed lot animals are fed? Yep, the same GMO vegetables you are concerned about eating.
With all due respect (and I am in no way being sarcastic but with text tone can be misunderstood), I have been vegan for 4 years and soy is only a small part of my diet. There are other ways to get protein such as legumes, brown rice, quinoa, nuts, seeds. What is important is that you eat a varied diet. Soy has its health benefits (I am a nutrition grad student so I've done a lot of research on it) but I would not suggest making it one's main source of protein simply because you are excluding many other great foods that also have wonderful health benefits. It is also important that you research the company that your soy comes from–as you said because pesticides/herbicides are not healthy for you or the planet. It is important to do your research. We all need to remember that it is not a perfect world but we are all just trying to do our best. Hope this helps :) Have a great day!
Right on Andi, I am a vegan also and soy is a very small part of my diet. I also live in a place that does not grow GMO plants and now we are going to vote on if GMO's are sold in our area that they must be labled. We the people have to demand that our food supply is safe and humane.
Vegans don't necessarily subsist on soy as their primary protein source. They can also eat nuts, nut butters, the many varieties of beans, and also, lentils. There's also hemp protein powders, and grains like quinoa, which contain protein.
If it weren't for drug testing at work, I'd try to live on hemp, too.
HAHA. I know, something about the word "hemp" just makes you think in other ways ... :)
I am a vegetarian, not a vegan. Lentils are my primary source of protein. I also have soy and hemp. No worries about drug tests with the hemp, though
Quinoa is a complete protein (as is hemp)
What struck me about this article was the comment at the end about reaching people who raise kids to love deeply. Is she saying that her child is a better person than mine because my child eats meat? I don't have a problem with her raising her child however she wants. I do, however, take issue with her holier than thou attitude.
Kirs, try not to take things personally. Everyone thinks that their kids are amazing. Its ok to boast.
Shouldnt we all just raise good healthy children. If one wants to raise a vegan child that their business. Too many people want to butt into other peoples lives yet when they see a man being beaten on the street they look the other way and keep on walking.
AMEN!!!!!
it's mostly the arrogance that I can't stand
People do'nt like to hear of the horrible treatment of animals therefore they call it arrogance, I call it being informed.
Now that's just a blanket statement, and incorrect. In my case, there is a dairy .5 miles from my house. Old fashioned glass bottles, organic, hormone free. I can walk up an moo at the cows, who are outside grazing most of the time. .5 miles away is my fish monger. Fresh, wild caught fish in daily. About 3 miles away is the poultry farm. Free range organic birds and eggs, humanely treated. I don't eat red meat more than a couple of times a year, but there is another local butcher as well, organic grass fed beef.
I can be an omnivore and still practice cruelty-free eating habits. Takes a bit more work, planning and money, but not eveyone blindly eats the prepackaged junk at the grocery store from factory farms.
Jude, I'm actually reading quite a bit of arrogance in this discussion. I suppose it would be possible to be a vegan and not feel better than someone who isn't vegan...but your reason for following the diet would have to be strictly for health reasons. As soon as you say you follow the diet because it's morally right, you're projecting arrogance of a sort.
Any doctor will tell you that raising a child a vegan could be potentially harmful, due to the need for fat and protein in a growing bodies diet. This is a choice that needs to be made later in life; it is a lifestyle not meant for a child.
That being said, I am always concerned with any group that lives on the "fringe" of lifestyle choices. Generally, like the religious, they are often attempting to sell their lifestyles to others. If one eats moderately, and not in excess, and this even includes an occasional trip to Mcdonalds, one will have a healthy lifestyle.
Much is said about hunters being "cruel" since they kill their future meal. People have lost value in understanding the sacrifice that is required into preparing a meal, including the preparation required. Hunting ones food and preparing it puts that into perspective; one truly appreciates the meal that they are served. I can understand someone having a problem with a hunter shooting an animal, and then letting it go to waste, but I cannot see someone having a problem when the animal is a source of nutrition and is valued. One who has grown up on a farm or has had experiences with growing and producing their own food has that respect for their meal, and I doubt would become a vegan. It seems to me that those who choose this lifestyle are so far away from the sources of their food, that they do not understand it.
Here Bill - educate yourself. Vegans consume just as much fat as you do, but it's UNsaturated. Protein is in abundance with a plant-based diet to the point where we have to be aware of getting TOO MUCH. http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/vegan.htm#nut
It is better to make your point with unbiased medical data. This links to a pro-vegetarian site.
Your source is a joke.
Here is an excellent source from the American Dietetic Association: http://www.eatright.org/about/content.aspx?id=8357
"It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes."
It goes on to show further how one can plan their diet at any life stage and how it actually aids in the prevention of certain diseases. A very good read from a credited source.
The idea that veganism is some sort of threat to all the meat eaters out there is ludicrous. As with any eating habits, if done correctly it is absolutely healthy. The fact is, most people simply don't want to be bothered.
'Mad cow disease' Just saying. Actually I totally agree with you.
Vegans also eat forms of saturated fat coming from coconut oil and avocados for example. The difference is that saturated fat of animal origin is high in cholesterol, pro-inflammatory, and atherogenic (meaning it promotes vascular/heart disease etc–I'm sure you've seen commercials for atherosclerosis?). Plant sources of saturated fat are and do none of these things. They actually promote the opposite. Hope this helps :)
I'm an older person and I'm a cancer survivor, I am also a vegan and never felt better.
Saturated fat from animals is not inflammatory. And dietary cholesterol does not raise blood cholesterol levels.
One of the most inflammatory, artery-damaging things we eat is actually GRAINS.
Here is an excellent source from the American Dietetic Association: http://www.eatright.org/about/content.aspx?id=8357
"It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes."
It goes on to show further how one can plan their diet at any life stage and how it actually aids in the prevention of certain diseases. A very good read from a credited source. I think I may have posted this twice-sorry the first time it didn't show up. Wanted to make sure you saw this. Hope the information helps!
Bill, this is a thoughtful response you've posted. However, I grew up on a farm (beef cattle and crops), and I'm now a vegetarian. So you can't say that anyone who grows up on a farm wouldn't choose a different eating lifestyle.
No, "any doctor" will not tell you that. Our pediatrician (who is not vegan) has mentioned that my seven-year-old is one of her healthiest patients and praises our family's health-promoting, high-nutrient vegan diet.
Its a beautiful book with a beautiful concept. Not to harm other living things, isn't that what we want to teach our kids? To be kind and compassionate? Why is everyone so angry about a children's book? There is a saying...Once in a while you will stumble upon the truth but most of us manage to pick ourselves up and hurry along as if nothing had happened...so for all you carnivores who think you have the truth about animal protein just pick yourselves up and move on. As for the rest of us, we have found the truth and have decided to live by it. I believe that's why you are all so angry, right? You stumbled onto something that makes you uncomfortable, that makes you evaluate how you are living your lives and it has made you uncomfortable. This all seems like a lot of bullying to me.
Do you feel an animal has the same value as a humans?
Well Said..
Well said Sara. I agree, compassion to all sentient beings in the world. All animals, including humanity.
If kids can be taught that certain animals can be exploited for our gain, they can be taught that that certainly isn't true. All this stance she takes in the book is merely "treat ALL animals how you would want to be treated, not just your pets"
I am a Vegan. I am a decorated veteran, in my forties, and slightly overweight. I drink beer, I struggled with cigarettes for years (finally stopped last year after nearly thirty years of smoking). I do not go around preaching about my lifestyle, but when offered a burger or bacon or even some chips (!), i just say, "NO Thanks", but I invariably hear, "why?. My veganism is because I have seen firsthand the destruction of human life, and all meat is the same to me now. I have even worked on a relatives pig farm since becoming vegan, and the conditions in the media are real, and reprehensible. That being said, I take no supplements, I find them uncomfortable. I became Vegan during chemotherapy, and am now in full remission, mot likely due to my diet; also, I had a recent surgery to rebuild my back, and my recovery time was the fastest that my surgeon has ever seen, even prompting my surgeon to become a holy roller type vegan (ask his nurses). Doctors worldwide are touting the health effects of this diet, and studies such as Harvard are showing the detrimental effects of dairy, beef, pork, poultry, and even fish. HOWEVER, I do not go around preaching this, like Ruby Roth. Showing children the truth about animals in the food chain and drug industry is not evil, but Zoos, Aquariums and Circuses run humanely are bastions of the genetic diversity of the planet, and the animals are "working" as it were to obtain there keep. PETA and such groups are reprehensible, as PETA is probably the number one group when it comes to euthanasia, and I have never been able to figure out how naked woman are supposed to be representative of exploitation, as I was raised that even if it is self exploitation to use sex for profit (getting out 'the message') it is still exploitative, and that is what Newkirk's group is supposed to be about. The facts are this: Veganism is a viable choice, most who live on a plant based diet enjoy health, vigor, and a new lease on life (ask Bill Clinton). Meat eating is a viable choice for most, and I am NOT here to tell the majority hat to do, but to think about it (and, PS, it is NOT WRONG to ingest meat or animal products). Proper nutrition of all kinds, including the B-complex, Omegas and such are obtainable from non-obscure sources, you just need a bit of education in the modern world. Children raised Vegan tend to be healthy, as, like most parents, Vegan parents want what is best for their children. I think that most mainstream dietary America is exposed to veganism is through PETA or that kid they knew in school that that potato chips lettuce and ramen were a viable diet for sustenance, or worse yet, that person or two that has an eating disorder that is masked by calling it "Vegetarianism" . My friends who are Vegan (friends, not acquaintances) are healthy, well balanced adults and children, and actually tend to know quite a bit about human nutrition and development. PS, most despise the militants and you should's of the activist groups. Almost as much as we despise those who tell us that we (or our children) cannot get the proper nutrition from our diet. Get it together people, if you are healthy, then your diet is right. IF you are healthy.
Man....... people get pissed if you do not eat meat........ I am also amazed at how misinformed people are about being a vegetarian. I run Marathons, Lift Weights, and live a very active life and I take NO Multi-vitamins. I have talked to Dr. he was fine with the idea and he in no way said it was a eating disorder...
If humans were meant to be vegan or vegetarian, we would not have meat tearing teeth and our bodies would not need protein to function. We are omnivores. Children who are growing need a healthy diet of protein, carbs, and fats. Raising a child vegan is just as bad as feeding your child McDonald's all the time. Science is fact.
Sorry to burst your propaganda bubble Angela, but humans did not start eating meat in the Dark Ages. Ever seen a cave drawing of hunters gathering meat?
That is incorrect. Any anthropologist worth their weight in salt will tell you that, even the vegan ones.
"Raising a child vegan is just as bad as feeding your child McDonald's all the time. Science is fact."
Okay, show us where the science said that.
Nice "appeal to nature" fallacy you've got going there. It's natural, therefore it must be good...RIGHT? RIGHT? Keep telling yourself that.
I think raising a child as a vegetarian would have little harm, but I would have serious concerns that their growing/ developing bodies and brains would not be getting the nutrition they need. I could see it for mid to late teens, if they chose to go vegan.
Having said that, just got back from the fish monger, and it will be wild caught salmon sushi for dinner for me tonight! Mmmmm...
Oops, sorry... Multitasking and forgot to proofread.
Meant to say.... but I would have serious concerns that their growing/ developing bodies and brains would not be getting the nutrition they need FROM A VEGAN DIET.
Like any diet choice, one needs to plan a balanced approach.
Heck the vast majority of kids are in danger from an omnivore diet because their parents don't care enough to feed them properly. Vegans generally speaking have already decided that they need to make a choice and are usually moer conscience of the need to make sure their nutritional needs are met.
My point is that a vegan diet may be appropriate for an adult, but not for young children.
And I agree with you. The American diet of today is certainly unhealthy for both children and adults. I'm a responsible and healthy omnivore, but that is certainly not the norm anymore.
My children have been raised vegan. They are as healthy, if not more so than other kids their ages. They are all at the top of their classes....
I know several vegan children and their parents. They are perfectly healthy if not more so than their meat consuming counterparts. If that i how you chose to raise your family why are any of us allowed to judge?
I'm not judging anyone. To each their own. I only stated that I would be concerned about the impact of mental and physical development this may have on children.
Not every discussion has to be an argument, Falcon. Relax.
I was far from needing to relax. It was a rhetorical question really.
My teenaged athletes with straight A's who haven't missed a day of school in years thank you for your advice. My daughter wonders if maybe her 2200 SAT score would have been better if only she'd been allowed to have McDonald's. My son wants to know if you think he could have been taller than 6'1" by now (age 14) if we hadn't deprived him of Velveeta.
(all in good fun, all in good fun...)
:)
@Robin- I'm happy to hear that's the case, as well as other success stories. I have no vested interest, just voiced a concern. I don't care what anyone chooses to eat, and no one should particularly care what I choose to.
Although to note, while we were raised pretty fat free (or nearly) and red meat free, McD's, Velveeta or other such nonsense would be found in our house. You won't find it in my house now, either. Non-vegan/ vegetarian doesn't necessarily mean an unhealthy diet or lifestyle either. I'll bet ya my brother and my varsity letters, state championships and Mensa cards on it ;-)
How can you tell when you are talking to a vegan?
Oh, don't worry, they'll tell you. Repeatedly.
They usually look malnourished, with pasty skin and limp hair, they have no muscle tone and look like they have an eating disorder.
Vegans are a lot healthier all-around than most people. Do a little research before you make public statements.
One rung up from the current "norm" of fat and sick isn't anything to brag about.
The best ultramarathoner in the world is a vegan. Want to go on a 20 mile run with him and then speak of his heath and fitness?
Since he's put himself back on the bottom of the food chain, running is a great ability to have.
He's also a massive jerk who has to get periodical B12 injections, and criticizes people who follow his 30BAD diet and fall ill. "You're not doing it right!" he'll say. I can't imagine what sort of shape his liver must be in. Not to mention the guy looks like an emaciated chimp.
"He's also a massive jerk who has to get periodical B12 injections"
Who are you talking about?
I have to say that most vegans / vegetarians I know are overweight and sickly looking. However, my brother has been a vegetarian since his teens and a good friend of mine is also. The both look fantastic.
Any diet can be healthy or unhealthy. Moderation and exercise are important, as well as the nutritional knowledge to know what is good for your body.
Malnourished, pasty, and lacking muscle? Then you've obviously never heard of Scott Jurek, Brendan Brazier, Rich Roll, Kenneth Williams, Christine Vardaros, Dr. Ruth Heidrich, or Rip Esselstyn (along with many, many other vegan athletes)... or me.
Bwhahaha! Oh man. This is golden. Such nonsense, it's honestly amazing how you're speaking as some sort of authority on what ALL vegans look like without a shred of evidence to support it.
Yeah, them vegan stereotypes....never get old.
Stop slipping in editorial comments that have no basis in reality. Your claim as to what is " a potentially difficult concept for a young child to understand" is slipped in without any rational argument other than the subtextual wink and a nod that says we all know that veganism goes too far, but you don't have the guts to directly back up your assertion.
We tell seven year olds not to run in the street. We tell seven year olds not to go to candy houses inhabited by witches who eat children. Why can a seven year old not understand the cruelty of caging animals for your entertainment?
Have the guts to state teh claim and back it up.
I think children are much more intuitive then we give them credit for. My cousin's 3 yr old was eating chicken fingers and she asked her mom if these are the same chickens we pet at Uncle Tom's farm. My cousin told her that yes they were. The little girl then said she didn't want to eat them and won't touch them. Another story, I used to be an elementary school teacher and we had to bring the kids to the zoo. One of my first graders asked me why the polar bear was in the zoo when he was supposed to be with Santa in the North Pole. She then asked why he was pacing and looked so nervous. I had no clue what to say but tried to explain things gently. She then said she was sad for the bear and didn't think he belonged in the zoo. Children understand and handle (when explained gently and honestly) more than we think.
MOST kids that grow up knowing where their food comes from are not ashamed to eat it, they understand the food chain and respect the fact that life comes from life. Because a 3 year old didn't want to eat what she was essentially told was a pet chicken doesn't mean that eating meat is "bad" or has some special "intuition", it's a learned behavior. It's part of our natural diet as humans to eat bugs, too, but we've learned bugs are icky and therefore have no desire to eat them.
I grew up knowing exactly where my food comes from. My parents were farmers (we grew crops, raised animals (mostly cattle, but a few sheep, goats, chickens, and rabbits)) and hunted. I, like my peers raised in the same area, grew up learning to respect nature and the sacrifices that some animals make so that others can live.
AJ, how much for a lb of the meat/dairy/eggs you're trying to sell?
Kids are a bit more practical then adult. They'll read this or have it read to them, say "ewwww", or possibly "cool", and go back to what they were doing.
Veganism is like a religion, people subscribe to it on the basis of completely irrational emotional arguments, they feel they are better and more enlightened than everybody else, and think that gives them the right to shove their beliefs down everybody's throat. They get as much sympathy from me as any other cultists do.
So, is it better to raise our children to eat the way most adults eat? Tons of artery clogging meat, fried foods, etc? Yes, let's make them fat and unhealthy like the rest of America! Veganism is NOT like religion. It is about being informed of what livestock producers do to animals AND the consumers who eat these animals. Ever been to a slaughter house? Visit one before you criticize people that are humane. Think these producers care about the health of the American people? They only care about money. Also, think you are "green"? If you eat meat, you are not. Livestock production is the #2 pollutant in the world, possibly #1. If you don't want to be vegan, that's fine, but don't criticize the rest of us for our compassion. "If slaughter houses had glass walls, we'd all be vegetarians" – Paul McCartney
To be fair, you can't generalize that all meat eaters are not "green" or are fat. You're also generalizing by stating that all meat producting farms are terrible to the animals. It's completely possible to buy local foods. And I know plenty of family owned farms. And hunt to get your meat. And it's all humane.
Ally: I agree. To be fair, both vegans and non-vegans can have healthy or unhealthy diets.
Absolutely, Rick.
I'm guessing a majority of slaughter house workers are not vegetarians.
I know several fat, unhealthy vegans. Just because you don't eat meat or animal products, doesn't mean you can't pack in the processed sugar, margerine, crisco and high fructose corn syrup. Soy contains small amounts of estrogen. Can't think that is all that healthy for small children.
Marcia....are you serious? The majority of vegetarians and vegans I have known are athletic, healthy, and glowing....I see far more meat eaters with back blubber and muffin tops. If you were ever a vegetarian or vegan, you would realize that it's not just about a decision not to consume animal products. It's a holistic way of life. Not sure who these vegans are that you know, but they're not doing it right.
Larisa, that's exactly my point.
I also know a couple of fat, unhealthy vegans. And they are "doing it wrong". But the fat, unhealthy omnivores you mentioned are also doing it wrong. One can be equally healthy on either diet if they do it right.
Meat does not clog arteries, you need to brush up on your nutrition research. And if someone eats meat doesn't mean they eat fast-food and lots of processed junk. There are diets in between "vegan" and "McDonalds every day".
Your idea of "being informed" is whatever PETA spoon-fed you. Why don't you go out and actually visit real farms? I know what happens on farms, I grew up on a farm in a farming/ranching community. I've been to hundreds of farms/ranches, raising everything from cattle, pigs, lambs, goats, ostriches, rabbits, etc. The PETA videos are not an accurate representation, they take the worst of the worst and portray it as the norm. In fact, PETA has been caught before staging their own abuse videos!
If you want to talk about pollutants, look in the mirror. Do you have any idea how many fertilizers, chemicals, etc., are sprayed on crops each year?
You are also making the mistake of thinking the only way to raise cattle is grain-fed cattle in feed-lots. Your smaller local farmers and ranchers raise cattle in pasture; and no, this pasture isn't "wasted crop land", it's land that is unfit for crops. A diet that includes some meat actually requires less land per person than a vegan diet.
Gee, sy, nothing like paintng people with a broad brush. As far as beliefs, who is shoving them down your throat?
Sy2502: If veganism or vegetarianism is a "cult", sign me up....any philosophy that teaches compassion, and urges humans to fight (even in a small way) against the systematic slaughter and ingestion of helpless creatures is one that I am more than proud to follow.
I would also advocate that children not be allowed Disneyland. There is the risk that they may confuse real bears with Winnie the Pooh.
Not only is it wrong, but veganism is actually an eating disorder. So, parents are doing great harm not only in terms of diet deficiency, which they can't overcome no matter what the argument, but also spreading their own emotional problems to the next generationl.
It is not an eating disorder, good heavens. There are plenty of happy, healthy vegans. It's a lifestyle choice, not a disorder.
Adhering to restrictive diets such as vegan or vegetarianism is often an excuse for covering up an eating disorder. It's fairly common.
Oh my gosh, I'm cracking up! The vegans and vegetarians I know ADORE food. They just eat by their conscience, that's all. I'm sure anything could mask an eating disorder, but it's absolutely wrong to say either veganism or vegetarianism is an eating disorder.
The whole, "eating disorder" hogwash is foolish.
And let us not forget the eating disorder of overeating or getting mentally addicted to certain foods like sugars.
You people are no better (or smarter) than the dogmatic vegan that thinks eating meat is a disorder.
Really, Caroline? An eating disorder? Perhaps you should pose that statement to our country's top cardiologists who recommend a vegan diet. The lobbying of the super-filthy-rich livestock producers has you FOOLED. Eating meat contaminated with hormones, antibiotics, urine, feces and who-knows-what is an eating disorder. Americans eat 4 times the protien they need. Another eating disorder. Educate yourself, PLEASE. If you eat meat from a regular grocery store you are eating poison - you just don't know it.
LoveAnimals-THANK YOU! I too believe eating the flesh, fat, and muscles off of some dead creature's bones is much more disordered than chomping on a celery stick.
Woah – you are so full of sh!t. Again – do some research before you go running your mouth and looking like a fool. I eat meat, but rather than get defensive when someone suggests vegetarianism/veganism, I read things to see if what they say is correct or not. If you were to do so, you may realize how healthy is it to eat a diet consisting of all/ mostly plants.
Caroline; An eating disorder? According to whom?
Okay, eating kosher is a strict diet. Do you consider that an eating disorder?
Vegans and vegetarians who assert that they don't have to take multi-vitamins–you do realize that the bulk of your pre-packaged "vegan" foods (especially grains) are fortified with essential minerals and vitamins? Pretty unnatural when you think about it, and is really just a roundabout way of taking supplements. Instead of swallowing a pill, it's just ground up into your food. Like cattle feed. Yum!
Actually, the only supplement vegans need to take is B12, and many meat-eaters need to take it as well. Some people, especially after age 50, have a reduced ability to absorb the B12 from meat and are prescribed the supplement, which is more easily absorbed.
The point I was trying to make that because a vegetarian and vegan diet contains many fortified foods and cereals, (iron, folate, calcium, vitamin D, B-vitamins, etc) that it is NOT natural and is basically like grinding up a multivitamin into your food.
It's a parents right to raise their child how they see fit, as long as it doesn't endanger the child. As long as the parents ensure the kids get proper nutrition and get what they need to grow up healthy it's fine to raise your child vegan. I don't think parents should push the 'those who aren't vegan are animal killer' approach, and instead focus on the health benefits of that diet. Kids should also be able to make their own choices, if they want to try meat they should be allowed to and not judged.
We evolved for millions of years as hunter-gatherers, and heavy on the hunting. It is human nature, what we are, and it's silly to reject it. Kill something and eat it, and embrace doing so. No other animal regrets what it is or tries to be something else, why should we?
Um, because we're not animals?
We're not? This changes everything!
yes, silver... whether you want to admit it or not – you are indeed and animal.
Yes, we are animals. We are mammals, just like wolves, foxes, bears, etc. We belong the the Kingdom Animalia, Phylum Chordata, Class Mammalia. Apparently, you missed your science classes.
You may want to check your sources. As any 1st grader will tell you, we are animals. Well, maybe you're a vegetable...
Okay, okay, I concede, LOL! I think my point was, and not well-spoken, is that we're human. We don't HAVE to do what animals do, just because they do. In some ways, we can be worse than animals, if you want to look at it that way. But I don't believe embracing our animal nature is a reason to eat meat. We don't have to embrace that nature; we have the choice not to. Before you all trounce me, I'm also not saying each of us must be a vegan. But I don't do something just because another creature does it. We have more choices and we have the ability to reason out and act on those choices. There! Hope I said it better; thanks for catching me on that :).
Silver, it's one thing to alter our behavior towards others (rape, murder, incest, stealing, etc), and quite another to force our bodies to adapt a diet which it is not biologically suited for. Just because fictional Vulcans did it, doesn't mean it's even remotely plausible in real life.
theshoeminator – I love that name, by the way ... I think veganism does work for people. I don't think they're forcing their bodies into an unnatural way of life. It works for some, maybe not for others. That's how I look at it - some people thrive on it, others don't seem to. So that wouldn't imply that it's not natural, just not for everyone's individual physiology.
Totally agree. And yes we are animals. Go to any war zone and you'll see how advanced we really are over a pack of hungry animals.
Nepa, while you make a good point, I argue that there is a small subset of people who are making a conscious choice to go against "human nature" by turning to vegetarianism or veganism. Why? Because we aren't as barbaric as we used to be. Humanity has evolved and we are realizing that we do have other choices when it comes to surviving. For me, the choice that I can keep my body fueled without animals needing to suffer is one that I can choose to make. It's a choice of compassion. Maybe the cavemen weren't as fully developed in that arena....who knows? I know that for years I ate meat and sometimes couldn't shake the revulsion of seeing veins when I ate a chicken leg, or pulling a turkey out of the oven, this juicy carcass that had once been a living, breathing bird. Or finding roadkill in the street, covered in maggots. Maggots love meat. Hmmmm....what does that make me? I couldn't handle my disgust anymore and so quit the meat cold turkey. So far, I struggle with the choice because of that barbaric "I need meat" urge, but then I think about the fact that I may have given up juicy cheeseburgers, succulent sausages, and chicken pad thai, but I am also aligning my lifestyle with my conscience. And that feels right for me.
I stopped eating Meat for 1 reason. Just about every form of cancer is the result of casein, the chemical found in animal protein?
There is no casein in meat. Casein is found in milk, not in meat. That all cancers are caused by either casein or meat is equally ludicrous.
There are far more toxins in the plant kingdom than in meats. Try eating 10 raw kidney beans and see what happens. Same for raw wheat. We evolved for millions of years eating raw foods. If you must cook it for it not to knock you on your @ss, it isn't natural food for a human.
Where do people get this information? Casein is found in human mothers milk, so I guess you think breast feeding a child is bad too. Casein is a protein found in milk. It provides rich amino acids to the body. There is also a "technical" form found in paints, cosmetics and glues.
Hmmm, does this mean that vegans do not breastfeed their children? After all there is animal protein in mothers milk.
I wonder if there is a connection between your lack of sufficient high-quality protein and your inability to use proper punctuation.
You made a very good point. 1 in 4 omnivores will get cancer, while studies show 1 in 20-30 vegans/vegetarians get cancer. Something to be studied. I am feeling a little guilty now about that egg mcmuffin now :(
The bottom line for me – vegan or not – we will all die of something. I believe George Burns said something to the effect of, you can eat healthy, exersize, and give up smoking, you may not live longer, but it will feel like it.
Our bodies have pretty clearly evolved to make us omnivores. I was a vegetarian for 4 years and a vegan for almost a year of that time, and I have to say that it was a lifestyle that just didn't work for me. FWIW, I know vegetarians and vegans who eat a very poor quality diet in terms of nutritional value. I now eat a whole foods paleo diet (no paleo "brownies" or other junk) – animal protein, a ton of veggies, and some fruit and nuts/seeds – only very occasional dairy and no grains or legumes. I feel amazing and would never go back to being a vegetarian, but I know vegetarians who would say the same about their way of eating. I think my body is particularly intolerant of grains and vegetable-based protein sources and therefore I actually limit those products in my diet.
However, having read "The Omnivore's Dilemma" I struggle with my conscience and always choose more humanely-sourced animal proteins. I do my best by buying wild-caught fish and seafood, cage-free eggs, and hormone-free/organic poultry and beef. Our daughter's cow's milk is organic and comes from a local dairy. Grass-fed/pasture-raised beef and pork would be ideal but we can't afford all of our animal proteins to be produced in that manner. We don't eat much pork because it's so hard to find pork not raised in horrid conditions and it costs a lot. In general it costs quite a bit more to buy more humanely-sourced animal proteins but I feel better about choosing them. I'm under no illusions that life for the animals is pastoral but at least it's an improvement over conventional factory farming practices. On the fruit/veggie side we also support a local organic farm and have a CSA share.
Our toddler is breastfed and drinks organic cow's milk, and she also has access to the same animal protein sources that we eat. She is allowed to have grain based cereals, crackers, etc. although we select less-processed options for her – I don't think she should have to eat a strict paleo diet the way I do until she can decide for herself. My husband also eats grain based foods because he's a grownup and he likes them. Our daughter will eat the same foods we eat until she's old enough to make a decision for herself. My parents were very tolerant of my vegetarian phase, and if a child of ours decides to be vegetarian or vegan we will accommodate that request.
Katie, that's a very sensible posting. I do think some people do well as vegans and vegetarians, but others may not. It's a personal choice that we have to respect and it definitely works well for some people. I loved Michael Pollan's book - it does open your eyes, doesn't it? Makes you think and I appreciated being made to think :).
I would hope most people would let their kids choose what they want to do. I went vegetarian when I was 8 and never went back. My mother (a huge meat eater) didn't want to force me to eat meat when I clearly didn't feel okay about it. But she made me start learning nutrition at a very young age and cook my own meals. I also had to get my blood tested every year in childhood to make sure I wasn't deficient in anything. Luckily my blood tests always came back great and she finally stopped worrying about it.
I would hope the children of vegetarians would have the freedom to choose if they want to eat meat or not.
Brilliant idea! Since most children would prefer to eat Happy Meals from McDs and snack on junk food all day. Yes, let's allow a 7 year old to eat what he/she wants. /facepalm
But happy meals have no meat in them ;)
It would be no worse that what mommy is forcing them to eat.
It is so difficult to have a rational conversation with a moron such as yourself.
The context of the comment by Ashley is the article and it is obvious to any thinking person with an IQ above that of a houseplant that her commentwas about the child making the determination of being a vegan, omnivore, vegetarian, etc and not some stupid, simple-minded (anything goes" mentality.
It is called context and if you get an education along with some reading comprehension skills, you'd be able to have an actual discussion with someone instead of making idiotic remarks based on ignorance and your assumption that others are as devoid of understanding as yourself.
Jim, in case my sarcasm completely went over your head (which it did, apparently), my point was that to cater to a young child's whims is not acting in their best interests. Be a PARENT. They can eat whatever they want as soon as they can buy & prepare their own meals.
I've been vegetarian for 20 years so I wouldn't really call it a whim. My point obviously wasn't that a child should be allowed to do anything they want. I was commenting on the topic of the article. In my case I felt very strongly that I didn't want to eat meat at a young age. I was old enough to understand it came from an animal and what that meant. My mother allowed me to explore that interest as long as I could prove that I was not deficient (or close to deficient) in any nutrients. I'm extremely grateful that my mother has always supported me actively developing my own ideas and beliefs even when she doesn't agree or understand them.
And for the snide comments about discipline – I wouldn't know about a happy meal since I've never had one. I wasn't allowed to have sugary cereal, soda, or fast food as a child so I never developed a taste for any of it.
It's a good thing most processed food isn't even meat anymore. I can eat an McNugget with a clean concience, since there's pretty much isn't any actual animal in there.
The nugget is mainly corn anyway...
I just wish that the vegans would shut up. If you want to be a cow kisser, great, SHUT UP AND DO IT. Stop trying to push your, IMHO, idiotic beliefs on everyone else. We, as meat eaters, don't need to see your silly books. We don't need to hear your opinions on animals. We don't need to see your doctored photos of conditions in a slaughterhouse from 60 years ago. We need you to SHUT UP and let us live our lives and you live yours.
Vegans have had to listen to meat eating propaganda, commercials, and other pro-meat advertising forever. People who enjoy meat flaunt in all the time, but no one tells them to shut up, even when the meat industry is constantly lying about what is 100% beef and what is still, in 2012, being done to animals in the name of "wants" not "needs". I am not vegan, however I understand that being vegan is a smarter, healthier choice than consuming meat on a daily basis. All modern health science backs this up. When you tell vegans to shut up, it comes across as your own insecurity about eating meat and the willful ignorance you possess.
Evidently, people have no clue what ignorance is. If you choose not to learn, you're not willfully ignorant, you're willfully moronic. Ignorance is a lack of knowledge, and can be easily fixed. Ignorance is not what most folks use the word in reference to...i.e. your post. All of this boils back that these little vegan groups make up a microscopic part of the population, but think they should influence the majority. Try jumping in the ocean and making the waves go the other direction. Also, I like that just stating my opinion is viewed as rage, just because I don't run it through a PC filter. Screw PC. Say what you mean, clearly, and you don't need to worry about watering it down so much that no one understands you. That is a dog...not a bipedal canine organism. They are retarded...not mentally challenged. They are short...not vertically challenged. It makes life A LOT simpler.
Somebody peed in JoeBob's Special K this morning.
Is that pee organic? Wouldn't want to upset a vegan....
Bob,
If you are actually interested, go to earthlings dot com for some education on the subject. Also, going against the grain (or trying to jump in the ocean to make the waves roll the other way) is how Galileo convinced the world, eventually, that the earth was round, how Einstein redefined reality for all of science, and how religious figures summoned faith that eventually overcame the norm (i.e. Jesus). Again, I would just like to state that you are seemingly aggro about this subject (cursing, CAPS, etc.) with a very narrow perspective on what is appropriate for reading material in the USA. Oh, just heard on Rush right now that mad cow disease was just found in California! Coincidences can be enlightening.
Oh, insecurity is not a condition I suffer from. I don't give a flying fluck what people think of me or my views. My views are just that, mine. Give me solid evidence, I'll change them. I do not, however, change them based on popular opinion.
Profanity...always classy. You sound like a most intelligent and refined individual.
Alas, don't care. I'm not here to make other people happy. If you want to be happy, make yourself happy. I'm happy, my family is happy and life is too short to care one bit what someone thinks about you....or your choice of wording in a sentence.
A.K.A. you are an idiot. That's MY opinion, and it is also based on popular opinion.
@Ashley.
Awesome! At least you have guts enough to stand up and say it, though, you lost it on the "Popular Opinion" thing. Also, you used A.K.A incorrectly. What does "also known as" have to do with anything? Who's the idiot?
To answer your last question, it is still you. Hands down and without question.
But thanks for playing.
LOL....trollbait =P Who's the idiot? TROLLOLOLOLOL!
Why do these people even bother to chime in on an intelligent discussion? They make me so angry.
You should look into the research behind the paleo/primal diet. Eating meat on a daily basis is not "unhealthy". There's far more evidence supporting paleo/primal than they is veganism.
Wow, JoeBob, hostile much? So it's okay for people to talk about eating meat (and write books and have magazines about hunting), but not veganism? If you disagree, just walk away. No one is forcing you to read this book about veganism this lady wrote, or even this CNN article. It's a free country. I can certainly understand if you don't agree with veganism, but good lands, I don't understand your rage.
See above reply....
I'm sorry, JoeBob, but spewing anger doesn't make you sound very happy. You have the right to express your opinion any way you want to, but when you're rude and hostile, it's a turn-off for most people. But then again, of course you don't care what people think. But you cared enough to post and want to share your views, so you obviously care that people hear your opinion. I understand your feelings about other people trying to force their thoughts/opinions on you, but aren't you doing the same? It's just a thought and I'm not truly trying to upset you - there are certainly hostile, pushy vegans out there, and also, hostile, pushy meat-eaters. I hear what you're saying, but how you said it made me want to not listen, LOL.
Silver, looks like you scared Joe Bob back into his trailer home.....THANK YOU! For someone rejoicing over how easy it is to "roil" folks up, sounds like he needs anger management training. Must be all that animal flesh, sinew, fat, muscles, organs he's eating.....
Haha, thank you! I hope he's not as angry as he sounds, LOL.
Larisa, go smoke a meat pole.
Thanks all =) I love how easy it is to get you folks riled up. TROLLOLOLOL!
Agreed Joe Bob. I knew a vegan who would not even sit on a leather chair at work. Needless to say I thought he was a fool long before I found out he was vegan. Nothing wrong with a balanced diet. But seriously, we have molars to chew meat. I'm not going to fight evolution because suddenly we think we should feel sorry for animals that would kills us in a heartbeat with no remorse. Kill them humanely and make the food safe.
Exactly. While the trolling is fun, there is truth there too. It's all in the delivery.
Molars are for chewing and grinding. Our teeth are pretty pathetic when you compare them to those of carnivorous animals. We cook meat to be able to tear it up with our teeth. I'm not saying one shouldn't eat meat, but the tooth argument isn't a great one.
So, what are you doing here? Is not like this article approached you in the street or knocked in your door. You sound like a very frustrated person, you should at least get some rest or something.
BTW no vegan ever tried to convince me of anything. I read the book "Eating Animals" and it showed me something that it seems most of us tried to avoid even thinking about. And yes, I loved to eat meat and cheese; and no, the book didn't jump me in the street and forced it's way into my brain. That is why I believe that there is no point in trying to convince anybody, all you can do is answer truthfully when asked. I am no better than anyone (except at drinking beer in which I am as good as anybody :) Now I am a very happy vegan. At least happier than you seem to be! Maybe it's the beer!
Animals:
Pretty to look at
Snuggly to hold
If you kill it, you eat it
or else it will mold.
So do fruits and vegetables.
IT'S all about what you are comftorable with. If you can go to a slaughterhouse and witness the inhumanity and violence that goes on and then go home and eat a steak with a clean conscious....so be it....if you go to a slaughter house and witness the inhumanity and violence and decide that you don't want to contribute to that.....so be it....I am not able to just turn a blind eye to what is going on in that industry.....but some people can......we call this IGNORANCE
Yes, ignorance is believing that food only comes from the slaughter house. Ignorance is ignoring scientific evidence and research and believing that everyone should see the world as you do.
AMEN
Vegans and Vegetarians both have serious issues when it comes to getting their needed vitamins and essentials. They are required to take numerous pills to make up for what they lose out by not eating meat. Let the kids eat what they should eat, later on you can indoctrinate them with your vegan BS.
There are millions of kids in India, who grow up in vegetarian households and they do not suffer from malnutrition or lack of anything. Proteins and vitamins are there in Vegetables & Fruits. If you have a balanced diet, it does not matter whether you are a vegetarian or non-vegetarian. It all becomes a personal choice. Americans are becoming very good at shoving their personal beliefs on other groups.
The opinions based on their religious beliefs gets shoved even harder. One has to see only the recent primary elections fiasco to get a glimpse on what is going to happen. You cannot argue logically with people who believe the earth is only 1000 years old.
well Suparag they are not healthy here: "The World Bank estimates that India is ranked 2nd in the world of the number of children suffering from malnutrition, after Bangladesh (in 1998), where 47% of the children exhibit a degree of malnutrition. The prevalence of underweight children in India is among the highest in the world, and is nearly double that of Sub-Saharan Africa with dire consequences for mobility, mortality, productivity and economic growth.[1] The UN estimates that 2.1 million Indian children die before reaching the age of 5 every year – four every minute – mostly from preventable illnesses such as diarrhoea, typhoid, malaria, measles and pneumonia. Every day, 1,000 Indian children die because of diarrhoea alone. According to the 1991 census of India, it has around 150 million children, constituting 17.5% of India's population, who are below the age of 6 years"
You have been proven wrong, they do not get their proper nutrition from their Vegetarian diets.
Hmm they moderated my comment: well Suparag in India they have a high mortality rate amongst their children due to faulty diets, aka Vegetarianism Google it. Cnn must have had trouble with a word in the quote I tried to show.
twm,
Go past your personal interpretation of the numbers and look a bit deeper. Most of those problems aren't from a veggie diet and the report certainly doesn't even come close to making the claim.
The problem is the fact that a very high percentage of the population doesn't get to eat because they can't afford food.
With a little thought and investigation you could have made the same discovery instead of trying to bolster your weak argument with facts and figures that don't make your case.
Suparag, the key word in your post is "vegetarian". They are vegetarians, not vegans. Vegetarians eat dairy and eggs, vegans do not. There are no traditionally vegan cultures, they would have died out if they tried!
My spouse is vegan and I'm vegetarian, and we had a very long discussion prior to the birth of our son about what dietary restrictions we would raise him with. We went back and forth for several weeks doing research on pediatric veganism and vegetarianism. For us, we decided that the best method was to raise him vegetarian, primarily because it's so difficult these days to find a good vegan children's multivitamin that contains enough of the B vitamins (especially B12). Plus cheese. Cheese was a big factor, too. Mmm...Cheese....
The way I see it is that from an evolutionary perspective, it's impossible for a human being to be a vegan (no eating of meat of any kind, no execptions), for one simple reason- Vitamin B-12. This is a vitamin that's essential for the proper functioning of our brains' neural network, and is only found in animals, from protozoa to mammals. It's not found in vegetables, fruit, nuts, bark, or any other kind of plant matter. Furthermore, there's a growing body of scientific work that supports the theory that a few million years ago when our ancestors started switching from an herbiverous diet to one that included vitamin-12 rich meat, that was the time that our species brains started growing in size and we started becoming smarter. As a result, homo sapiens has evolved to be an omniverous species, one that does indeed need some meat to ensure proper brain health. So since vegans need vitamin B-12supplents, and vitamin B-12 comes from animals, then the vitamin B-12 supplements vegans have to take come from processed animals, which ultimately means that, horor of horors, yes, vegans do end up eating some form of meat.
Incorrect. B12 in supplements is sourced from bacteria cultures. The only way a B12 supplement would be nonvegan is if it were made with gelatin, which usually isn't the case anymore. Interestingly, B12 deficiency among meat-eaters is fairly common, especially among those over age 50, because of a reduced ability to absorb the B12 in animal foods. They are prescribed the more easily absorbed supplemental B12.
Nothing wrong with vegans. Heck, I'd be a vegan if I didn't enjoy meat and hunting so much.
Heck I'd eat vegans if I didn't hate vegetables so much.
India is a country full of vegetarians and their population is growing. I'm not a vegetarian but if they are getting balanced nutrition, don't see a problem.
Parts of india are vegetarian, but not vegan. They eat copious amounts of egg and milk based products.
Check out the facts on indias children. Malnourishment from the vegetarian diet has led to numerous detah of children under the age of 6 . In truth they are raned number two in the world in children suffering from malnutrition. Don't let the facts get in the way of your arguement though
Don't let facts get in your way, poverty is the reason for malnutrition not being vegetarian. Middle and upper class Hindus are quite healthy, they have been for hundreds of years.
LOL! Might want to check out India's rising rates of diabetes and hypertension before you use them as an example for the virtues of vegetarianism.
Probably because some of them have adopted our way of eating (fast food, etc.).
Exactly. They are eating more fast and processed food.
I am vegan and do not have animal products in my home, so therefore I do not feed them to my child. However, she goes to daycare where she eats a healthy, well-rounded omnivorous diet, with plenty of fresh fruits and veggies (no hot dogs or french fries). My main concern is that she eats a healthy diet both inside and outside of my home, and that she is getting sufficient nutrition no matter what. I've accepted the fact that I cannot control what she eats while outside of my care, and that is fine. If she makes the decision to be vegan or vegetarian when she gets older, so be it. If not, that is fine, too. My lifestyle will continue, but if she wants a steak or burger, she can go get it somewhere else.
So you refuse to give your child what they want or need, possibly sacrificing their health?
I'm pretty sure Chris stated that he makes sure his daughters nutritional needs are being met.
I take this to mean Chris will not cook separate meals for his/her daughter, since the vegan meals being served meet the child's nutritional needs. It is possible to be a healthy vegetarian/vegan, but ti takes effort – it's more than just what you give up, it's what you replace it with to ensure the appropriate proteins/vitamins and so on. I think Chris has the most balanced approach I've heard – staying true to his/her belief, while not complicating things by enforcing the diet outside of the home, and allowing the child to make the choice once old enough.
Hi Chris,
Your approach is an excellent blend of living through being an example but not being dogmatic with others and that is a great quality that more of us could learn from.
My issue with this author is the radicalism and need to force kids to make emotional decisions based on their feelings and not from knowledge and experience (many good things come from messy or not so great circumstances). Open sores and so forth for little kids who don't understand the fuller picture is nothing short of indoctrination.
There was a time when Parents were not sure how to deal with the fact that their SOCIETY was OK with owning people as SLAVES even though the PARENTS did not believe in this practice themselves. By their example of NOT owning Slaves or endorsing the practice when talking with their children – Those children grew up to form a New Society where there was no Slavery.
But you didn't (nor should we have) had our kids reading books from only one-side with graphic pictures and such other information at such a young age. It is called being age-appropriate and finding the best way to give people the full picture to make informed decisions, not how best to indoctrinate and scare little kids into submission.
This is no different than using a candle and burning yourself or showing pictures of kids burning in Hell to evoke an emotional response instead of providing a fuller picture and at the proper time of development.
If you're volunteering to move to your own island, be my guest.
I don't see how this is any different than brainwashing young children with religion.
It's not any different (I'm a vegan). Parents have the right to raise their children how they see fit. We are all trying to do our best. We should here respect each other's differences and face the fact that we're all probably goofing up our kids. I was raise catholic for example. my parents thought that was a good thing for me. i will not raise my children catholic: it's a scary religion.
So you're raising them to believe Catholicism is a scarey religion?
There is no difference. It's all about how the message is delivered. Deliver information as a choice and let the child make their own decisions. Demand a child eats, prays or lives a certain way and tell them bad things will happen if they don't do "X" and continue to feed the hate.
That is a very wise statement.
One less source of pleasure for the next generation. Once in a while there is nothing like a nice med-rare steak...
Perhaps some vegans could answer some of my questions and points -
1. I get your choice to not eat meat because it is an animal, but why no milk? And commercial eggs are not fertilized, so why no eggs?
2. I have struggled with the concept of zoos, at times, but I believe that society having access to see and enjoy animals help us to have empathy for them. A child seeing animal X at the zoo may affect their choice to be good to the planet, donate to a charity, etc in order to help the animal(s) they have come to know and love.
They've had this notion fed to them that no other mammal than us drink the milk of other mammals, which is terribly not true. Give me any mammal, rabbit, deer, cow, camel, goat, cat, squirrel... and put some milk in front of them. They'll all drink it just the same, herbivore or carnivore. Hunting carnivores certainly like pulling down lactating does. Cow milk is fairly rough, but you can raise just about any animal on goats milk from infancy to adulthood.
The rest of it is because the animals live in cages for the most part, which is understandable to be upset by. Same with zoos, because they'd rather have an endangered animal hunted and suffering in a troubled habitat than preserved. (circuses and Sea World type places though – they do literally torture their animals, so even not being vegan, I won't go to those either).
What they need to stop doing now though is eating fruit and nuts, because most of those fruits and nuts are pollinated by farmed bees. They won't eat the honey for this reason, so why is it alright to eat the other labor of those bees, which are carted all over the country in trucks? They also won't talk about all of the animals that are killed to bring them their vegetables, all of the little lives that are lost at any harvest, or throughout the growing season when pests are removed and killed. Apparently the lives of field mice and caterpillars aren't as important as those of cows and chickens.
I'm vegan. And unlike mr. happy pants who already replied with a bunch of sarcastic b/s, here's my take –
1. Take a look at the conditions of dairy farms and commercial egg production farms. The animals live in conditions that would basically be the equivelent of you living in a 3x3x6 box with no toilet or running water for your entire life while being force fed hormones and ungodly amounts of lard and crisco until you no longer produce, then you're killed. Just because they are not "meat" cows or chickens doesn't mean they are living the high life.
2. Zoos – never really got the whole hubabaloo about zoos. They serve a purpose. Yeah, the animals are confined but I work in a cubicle all day. Just people being huffy about that one. Animals are generally well cared for. I have no problem with them.
1. I agree that commercial farming has it's problems. One might provide this same argument for vegetable farming as most people really don't know what they are getting and most produce you buy in the grocery store was picked so long ago that it no longer provides all those nutrients people think they are getting. However, there are a lot of small farmers and farming communities that take great care of their livestock. Hopefully, you aren't encouraging that we put them out of business as this has been their source of income for many generations.
2. Although zoos have problems and confinement is an issue, they also serve to provide safe havens for reproduction of endangered species. They provide funds for research and assistance to wild populations. In many cases, without zoos, you would no longer be able to see certain species because of extinction.
It's not that we don't know what we're getting from commercial vegetable farms, it's that we know exactly what we are getting from factory farms. The animals are raised in complete h3ll, only to be killed at the end of their useful lifecycle. It's not like at a vegetable farm when the veggies are harvested and there is some unfortuneate field mice getting killed. THe mice and insects weren't born to be used as food, just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Saying there is death due to vegetable farming so nobody should eat vegetables is the same as saying there is death due to driving, flying, transporation in general so nobody should move. Death happens as an byproduct of the event, but was not the sole purpose of the event itself.
I don't understand your equation of you voluntarily being confined to a cubicle and a wild animal being captured and confined against its will in a zoo. They are wild animals! They are wired to be able to roam free not be kept in a cage with peanuts being thrown at them. If you think that animals in zoos are treated well, you are extremely naive. And what about all of the sealife at places like SeaWorld? Alot of their creatures come from Japan, which is notorious for illegally slaughtering dolphins every year. Supporting some "harmless" business such as a zoo or seaworld only means you're supporting more sinister businesses. Just as if you buy your new pet from a petshop, you are indirectly supporting puppy mills.
Lars,
With all sincerity I ask this question; If the animals are well cared for (say with free-range living, no antibiotics, very quick kill etchniques, etc) are you good with eating meat?
Your argument against meat has been from the perspective of the factory :"farm" perspective (CAFO's, etc) and I respect your choice either way but, your argument so far isn't against eating animals but the practices of raising most of the food animals.
Lars, you do realize that the only reason those animals are alive is to provide food right? Their living conditions mean nothing, we already know that they are going to be killed to become food. That is their sole purpose of being.
I'd say their living conditions mean something to them. If we can't recognize their pain and suffering, when it comes to CAFO operations (confinement, etc.), we should be deeply ashamed of ourselves and our sense of compassion toward these animals.
No Silver their conditions are more than adequate. They couldn't sell unhealthy products. Unlike the vegetable business that has had serious issues containing bochilism and other diseases from being a part of there product.
Oh my goodness, TwM, how can you say their living conditions are adequate? Adequate for what? Experimentation in confinement and cruelty?
Yes, there are problems with toxins appearing in vegetables, but there are also issues with e-coli and salmonella contamination in the meat supply.
The no milk thing isn't just because of the belief that no other mammal drinks another mammals milk. It's because of how dairy cows are treated, the hormones and antibiotics that go into dairy cows, and therefore are in their milk, and the byproduct of dairy products, which is baby cows that get turned into veal. A dairy cow is pumped full of hormones and other drugs to force it's body to produce more than 10 times the normal amount produced by an average cow. This shortens their lifespan considerably. They are pumped full of antibiotics because the living conditions they are kept in are generally filthy and contaminated, so they need antibiotics constantly to keep them from getting sick. They have to have a baby every so often to continue to produce milk. Those babies are generally shipped off to slaughter, and used for veal. In order for the babies meat to stay tender, they keep them in small crates so they cannot move around too much, causing there muscles to become tough. The whole process is inhumane. Not to mention all the hormones you are then putting into your body by consuming those products.
Eggs also have the hormones and antibiotics in them. Hens that produce eggs for human consumption are often kept in very small cages, sometimes 3 or 4 hens crammed into one cage. Those cages are stacked on top of each other, causing the hens on the bottome to be covered in the excrement of the hens above them. Most of the time their beaks are filed down or the tips are cut off to keep them from pecking at each other. They are so stressed from living in these conditions that many don't have feathers. Again, it's inhumane, and not healthy to eat considering all of the hormones and antibiotics.
I'm not a vegan, but I understand why some people are. It's usually not just because "eating animals is mean!". Most of it has to do with the way animal products are produced, and the unhealthy things found in those products. I was a vegan for two years, and if the area I live in was more vegan friendly, I would still be today. I did, however, make a compromise, and eat mostly locally organic items. That way I can see how the things I eat are raised and processed.
Hey Rachel,
I understand everyone should be free to make their own decisions, but do a little research before you make such assumptions about the quality of life of egg-producing chickens... FYI, those cages are designed so that no excrement drops through to other birds, and the excrement is removed from the cages so that birds do not stand in it. Also, if these birds are so "unhappy" and "stressed" they do not produce eggs, as following the principle of resource allocation in all species of animals, egg production is the first to go if an animal is stressed. When layers are laying records amounts of eggs, that's a hard argument that they are so "stressed." Also, the feather loss you refer to is a natural process called molting, just as snakes and reptiles molt. It is illegal for the birds to receive hormones, and the only ones they have are those naturally found like the hormones naturally found in us. As an expert in the field, I can guarantee you these laying facilities and other commercial farming operations are not all the "horrible" places the public seems to perceive they are. As with any industry, there are outliers of those people who do not respect their animals, but show me anything/process where there are not people who abuse the system.
Jess very nice rebuttal to the utter garbage rachel spwed forth.
Wow, sorry, Jess, don't believe you. Hens in battery cages, forced molting (so they'll lay eggs), debeaking, and discarding of male chicks? You've got to be kidding if you think that's a compassionate system. People have done their research; they seen the evidence. And it ain't good for the chickens.
Induced molting (or forced molting) is the practice by the commercial egg industry of artificially provoking a complete flock of hens to molt simultaneously. This is usually achieved by withdrawal of feed for 7-14 days.
Withdrawal of food? Sounds nice for the hens, not.
I have a friend who raises chickens. She cares for them starting as babies & feeds them good food with special nutritional support for egg laying so they will live long healthy lives. She only raises hens & they have a great life without crates. They love her & are always trying to get her to pet them. When I was a kid my friend next door had a duck that she pampered & adored. I had a duck egg every morning from Taffy & she had a great long life.
Eating milk products or eggs does not mean you have to be abusing animals. Dairy farmers have learned that a cow gives more milk when they are contented & well treated. The use of hormones & antibiotics is being reduced under the pressure of the consumers who refuse to buy it. New dairies are even becoming automated. The cow comes voluntarily to be milked, & then ambles off happily. Calves are now raised on their mother's milk. You are not doing your part to change things by seeking out the ethical farmers to purchase eggs & milk products. How lazy & self indulgent.
Thank you for your responses all. Helped me to better understand the stance(s).
Then go to a farm that does not use those methods. Here's a radical idea...go raise your own. I get my eggs locally from a friend who has non caged hens. I choose my dairy products the same way. Start using your brain, unless it has atrophied from malnutrition. Malnourishing a child & scarring them with graphic pictures is abusive.
If you have to take supplements, it is not a natural diet. If you rely on your produce to be retrieved to you from all over the world, it is not a natural diet. If you can get everything you need to keep you healthy without taking man made supplements and getting all of your produce somewhat locally, then that's a natural diet.
Otherwise, it's just another religion that people shove down other peoples' throats to try to make themselves feel more self righteous. It may be more harmful for children who later find out that no one wants to come over to their house because their parents are veg-nazis than the actual diet itself.
Red herring argument. If you really think that you are always getting 100% of your nutrients from your diet simply because you eat meat then you are pretty misinformed. I'm no expert but if you really believe that you line up all the meat eaters vs. all the vegetarians and on one side everybody will be getting all they need from their diet and the other won't you're actually insane.
No red herrings...a balanced diet of wild caught fish, grass fed beef and dairy products along with fresh whole grains, fresh fruits and vegetables will provide a well-balanced diet. You also need to spend about 10-15 minutes a day getting some sun without the sunscreen for your vitamin D. If you do not have any specific health problems, these are enough to maintain a healthy individual. Just ask my relatives and many others who have lived into their late 90's and early 100's for many, many generations.
Take a look at the average American. Do you really believe they are getting a "well-balanced" diet of the items listed? And "your relatives" are not a large enough sample size to make any claims as being valid.
Ignore Lars. You are indeed correct. Veganism is just yet another Emo phase that the hipster nuts are going through.
Lars...the average overweight American lives on pre-packaged foods and fast foods. None of which are real food, much less real meat. Most "hamburgers" are composed of soy substances and very little real meat. Soy, in the unfermented form, is not a healthy diet. I haven't even touched on all the bread and other substances we buy in the stores. Let me ask you this? Some people say they are vegetarians and feed their kids mac and cheese from a box...that is hardly healthy.
By the way, my relatives are a drop in the bucket. Many, many cultures live long healthy lives and they consume fish, eggs and dairy.
Actually it is permanently harmful for vegan children to be chronically malnourished. Being raised vegan lowers both the IQ & life expectancy. Both vegans & vegetarians live shorter lives than anyone else, including people who overindulge in meat products. Scientists found that supplements are inferior to a well balanced diet due to lack of absorption. If the parent is concerned about the animals then please, go find a farm that raises it's animals ethically instead of mistreating your child. Or get some chickens & raise them yourself.
Cite references here please.
I believe you really have to look at these kids on a case-by-case basis. Simple fact is that at minimum some children will REQUIRE meat in their diet no matter what their parents want to think, others would probably be fine or better with a vegan diet. You just have to carefully monitor any changes in behaviour, physique, health, etc....and not simplify the equation with "I'm the parent, so whatever I think is correct. No questions."
Again, it's all in the genes.
How can you lay all of this food guilt about animals on little kids when some animals EAT other animals? You people are crazy. Crazy vegans.
Unlike other animals, many humans have a choice. I have to wonder why the ethical decisions of others make you so defensive.
I agree, This is mental cruelty. This author is being abusive to children to promote her cult.
My future children WILL be raised vegan. I made the decision to go vegan 2 years ago mostly for health reasons, and the more I learn about how the industries impact animals and the environment, the more confident I feel that I've made the right decision for myself. I date mostly meat eaters because I know that I'm in the minority and don't want to limit myself in this way, but their ability to respect my veganism, hear the issues with an open mind and eventually respect this decision I've made for future kids is a huge "make or break" factor in relationships.
So THEY have to have an open mind, but you don't have to? Even though you're planning on breeding with someone else, who you would hope would have an equal hand in raising your children, you won't let their other parent have any say in the matter?
The best thing you could do for animals and the environment would be to not add another life that is dependent on the food system. If you're that convinced, you should probably just skip breeding.
The scary thing here, is people are putting their love and care for animals possibly above their own children.
Yes, sadly that might be the case.
Not at all, Todd. Every parent I know, vegan or otherwise, would do ANYTHING for their children. My vegan-since-conception daughter has never had strep or an ear infection, let alone anything serious. (Perhaps best of all, she has thrown up only twice in her seven and a half years.) However, if she fell ill and by some strange twist of fate she could get better only by consuming an animal product, it would be on her plate at the next meal. Do not presume to know what's in the hearts of others, because your assumptions are tainted by your own biases.
You are bragging about how you will lower your children's IQ level and condemn them to a shorter life span through malnutrition? You do realize there are parents in jail for murdering their children with a vegan diet? Doctors warned those fanatics. You sound just like them. Horrible. Abusive.
Vegetarianism vs. Veganism. Most of the health benefits are from Vegetarianism, we need more books for kids that encouraging the eating of Vegetables. Which will create a like of Vegetables and Vegetarian meals. However Veganism is like a kids book to tell your kids how to be a Democrat or a republican then place judgement on ones who do not follow your view point. We as a society needs to eat less meat, however we don't need to be vegans to do so. And for the most part we are actually giving most of these animals a higher quality of life then they would have in the wild.
A better life than they'd have in the wild? That is hysterical. Most of the animals we slaughter, are bred just for slaughter. If anything, not eating meat would cause cows and pigs to go extinct. I think any animal that has had its throat slit then is hung upside down to bleed out would much prefer never being born rather than being born just to die. Don't kid yourself into thinking we're doing animals any favors by eating them.
Amanda, you have hit the nail on the head....I am sure cattle are so happy to be here to serve our carnal (literally) purposes. Being wrested from your mother as a young calf, spending your days standing in mud and feces, crammed against thousands of other cows, no freedom, then being shoved into a truck with little ventilation, to be taken to an unknown place, bewildered and terrified, until the man holds a machine against your head, stuns you, hangs you upside down, then slits your throat. What a wonderful life to be brought into....