 The celebration of the Islamic holiday of Eid-ul-Adha is a reminder of whole-animal food preparation, an essential process throughout the developing world that is enjoying a renaissance in modern American dining. Eid-ul-Adha – or Bakra Eid (Eid of the goat) as we called it – is a day on which Muslims around the world sacrifice cows and goats in remembrance of Abraham’s willingness to sacrifice his son for God. Growing up in Karachi, I remember trucks stopping door-to-door picking up animal skins, excited chatter about the treats we would soon enjoy, and visiting friends and family to share carefully packaged cuts of meat. My appreciation and understanding for this tradition took on a new perspective two years ago when my grandmother visited me in Atlanta. My sister and I were discussing this crazy new food movement in the American south that used buzzwords like farm-to-table, organic, and whole-animal cuisine. Insert grandmother Nani: “Sweetie, is that what they are really doing? Oh well, it’s good that people are now catching on to methods we have used since donkey’s years!” Me: “Hold on, what do you mean Nani? How can you say that? We don’t eat a whole animal – like ALL of the parts!” “No, you do, maybe you just didn’t notice. Don’t you remember Eid!?” Suddenly, I began to see my 22 years of Bakra Eid experiences from a new perspective. Saima Ali was raised in Pakistan, and continues a Bakra Eid tradition with her family in Atlanta. Although she has lived in Atlanta for over thirty years, Ali and her family travel to a family farm Calhoun, Georgia every year to select, slaughter, prepare, and consume a cow. “I want my children to be able to know where their proteins come from, and to respect the animal they sacrifice and eat.” Alpharetta, Georgia mother of two Mobiha Murad puts particular emphasis on the quality of meat used during the holiday. “The taste of fresh meat prepared for an Eid feast tastes like no other dish through out the year; the meat is fresh, aromatic and has a soft and subtle texture.” Murad uses the opportunity of the whole animal to prepare classic, labor-intensive south Asian delicacies like kata kat, paya, and varieties of kababs. Similarly, celebrated Atlanta chef Anne Quatrano has gone “meatcentric” in a special way with her two year old venture, Abattoir. Quatrano’s menu at Abattoir includes dishes made with head cheese (a terrine made from head meat and jellied stock), feet, and innards. “We use locally-raised proteins to produce high quality, affordable food.” Explaining the origin of the local-animal concept, Quatrano notes, “We had great relationships with local farmers, butchers, and herders (by purchasing produce for her other restaurants Bacchanalia, Star Provisions, and Floataway Café); we knew the way their products are nurtured, cared for, and butchered.” And the Abattoir experience goes beyond the dining clientele. “Using a whole animal is a spiritual experience for me and the staff here because we respect the animal that has given up its life for us to consume.” That respect extends to the environment outside the restaurant for Kevin Ouzts, owner of The Spotted Trotter, a chic charcuterie in Kirkwood, an Atlanta neighborhood. Ouzts is a great advocate of thoughtful, environmentally conscious decisions about meat. “As far is travel and cutting time is concerned, buying the whole animal locally streamlines the process and you then avoid wastage of both energy and non-recyclable materials used in packaging proteins or then preserving it.” Further, Ouzts buys whole animals only from local farms where animals are raised on organic feed. Although some of Quatrano’s and Ouzts’s menu selections would be literally foreign to Nani, I think she would recognize and appreciate the care, precision, and respect that goes in to the dishes. Brain masala today, tripe ramen tomorrow. Previously - Five reasons to consider the goat and An Egyptian family's Eid al-Fitr feast For more on religion, visit the Belief Blog |
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Why does someone always say "respect the animal that "gave" up it's life" DUH! the life was taken not given – the whole thing of eating animals is disgusting and the cruelty that goes into the practice is even worse – stupid people
You are what you eat, I hope you've heard of that.
Well I don't know what animal they are eating in Pakistan but they are now killing doctors.
Pakistan celebrates Moslem holiday – Eid, by executing four doctors (Dr Ashok, Dr Naresh, Dr Ajeet and Dr Satia Paul) in Karachi for the crime of being Christian/Hindu. Pakistan, where everyday is a 7th century day in the cesspool.
I am a Muslim and condemn such acts for no matter what reason that is insane!! Although minority hate crimes are common in Pakistan and India, it's very common in the US as well. Hate crime, minority or not, is absolutely inhuman act. I am praying for their families.
Pakistan celebrates Moslem holiday – Eid, by executing four doctors (Dr Ashok, Dr Naresh, Dr Ajeet and Dr Satia Paul) in Karachi for the crime of being Christian/Hindu. Pakistan, where everyday is a 7th century day in the cesspool.
Do you have zoo's in India? If you do, then do you have lions? and if you do have lions then what do you feed them? meat or lettuce? You see where I am trying to get at. It is in the nature of lions to eat meat. We aren't any different but have intelligence; therefore, we have the choice. There are people of many faiths who choose to eat just vegetables. The issue here is the faith and not the choice and the people on this board are just doing that! If Hindu religion sees consuming meat as abhorrent then its ok but that shouldn't apply for everyone. It’s a circle of life. And it is not the one we saw on Lion King. It doesn't work like that.
OMG. When will you guys stop giving stupid arguments. You are not lion or tiger. They are naturally meant for killing. Can you kill a deer, buffalo or anything in wild without using any kind of arms. Can you run as fast as deer or do you have claws or teeth to cut through animal skin or can you eat raw meat? No, No and No. Humans are not naturally meant for killing and eating animals, they have adopted it.
I would request all the reader on this forum to not be lowlife by insulting each other and each other's religion. Religion is a choice of an individual as far as it is not hurting you and human kind, whatever practice they follows should bear no argument. I am Hindu and as far as Hinduism is concerned, it is a liberal religion and does not spread hate and accept every view on religion. It does not hate or insult any religion. Therefore, those who are critisizing other religion might be just Atheist and neither Christian, Jews or Hindus. Peace.
Religion specially where you can question makes you dumb and which is what happening with religious practices. People are following it and justifying it with silly reasons. Religion is obscure in today's world. I would rather celebrate science which has given what religion used to promise. You can be treated by medicine. You can see and talk to people thousand miles away. You can make environmental comfortable to yourself and heaven is on earth. There is no heaven anywhere else.
Sorry lines should be read as "Religion specially if you can't question it"
Please Cease and desist in using the name Truth on this Blog. It has already been taken by a fine man that knows how to write and spell. If you must persist in the use of his name I shall file a motion in Federal Court. Thank You and have a good day.
If Heaven is on earth , Just maybe you can tell me how to get THERE
I don't understand why some people go to comment on religious articles just to disrespect that religion. As mature adults we should have enough sense about dealing with other people's religious practices in a respectable manner even if we don't agree with them. As far as people who believe it is wrong to eat meat because we are hurting the animals I say then we should not eat anything because my friends it is well researched and established that all plants have feelings of hurt and pain but because they are designed differently and are different from us we cannot tell what they are expressing with our five senses. They operate in different frequencies that the human ear cannot pick up. Read the Secret Life of Plants by Peter Tomkins if you would like to know how intensely alive and full of feelings the world of plants is. And just think how "barbaric" we are by ripping them out of the ground and chopping them up to eat them. May God Almightly make it easy for us all to tell truth from falsehood. Amen. Peace to everyone
Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. (St. Paul's Letter to the Colossians Chapter 2)
"happy ... " You answered your implied question in that first line:
"... As mature adults ..."
nuff said
You are the missing the whole point of discussion. Your people are claiming to attain spirituality by killing an animal and using all parts and even putting the statement that it was animal who came forward for sacrifice. So go through the article and then come back to defend this bad practice.
Im sorry "A Human", before you talk, why dont you go learn about the edicts of the religion fist. The goat is sacrified, 1/3 goes to feeding the improvished/poor, 1/3 stays with you to feed your family, and 1/3 goes to aquiantances. Millions of poor people wait for Eid uladha to eat meat- especially when meat is very expensive in devloping countries- some poor families are unable to afford meat year long (and all the nutrients that come with it). Your myopic view of this practice is lacking, pathetic, uneducated, and ignorant. You, as a citizen of a country which has placed large emphasis on education and reading: I have to say, you have come out to be pretty dumb
Why Islam have to take help of propaganda of lies to justify it? No research has told that plant has pain. It is wrong as Plant has no nervous system and feeling of pain. They don't have chemicals which produces pain. Therefore, even a person who is illiterate can say that killing animal and plant killing is not same. I have never heard such absurd argument before.
So what's your problem.....when you guys worship every animal and even genital organs we don't object ...when your people drink cow' s ur*n and even their own ur*ne we don't care...when you aghori sadhus loath in filth eat dead and rotten human flesh and dead animals and even their own sh**...we don't say word........so just suck it up...we are going to kill and eat meat of your god cow mata...do what ever u wanna do .
No doubt in-breeding has made you dumb. You are arguing and justifying you religion again on the basis of false, lies and propaganda as none of what you mentioned is a Hindu practice. Hindus don't do whatever you mentioned other than celebrating "Shiv Lingam" which is considered as symbol of male creative energy and begininglessness and endlessness of Shiva (stambha). Shiv linga does not have begining or end and represent both energy and vastness of creator. It is not celebrated as what you stupid think. Anyway, I don't care as I am atheist and don't follow religion as it has no meaning.
I can care less whether you believe in any religion or not. But again like your previous pathetic comments you are again full off lies. Hindus do all these disgusting and filthy things....watch it yourself on the you tube or I can post the links here.anyways don't try to be smart on something about which u don't have any clue.
Jesus is lord. I am who I am. Muslims are being led by satan please turn to jesus
Likewise muslims are inviting you to turn to Islam as your salvation and redemption.
You are on crack. Thats what you are.
Well those people that think this is killing animals go to a store and see all that meat its the same thing but in a packet. This sacrifice is good for the poor 1/3 of it goes to the poor who have nothing so if you have a problem with feeding millions then I don't really care what you think.
God told Abraham and not anyone else. People think they are Abraham and God will talk to them but these idiots are copycats by doing all kinds of stupid things. Humans are really stupid.
Can I assume you talk to God on a daily basis? There is no need for self boasting.
Thousands Of British Elite Embrace Islam: Study
LONDON, February 26 (IslamOnline.net) – Jonathan Birt, the son of Lord Birt and Emma Clark, the granddaughter of former liberal prime minister Herbert Asquith, are only two of 14,000 mostly-elite white Britons having reverted to Islam.
"I have received letters from people … who are looking for a religion which does not compromise too much with the modern world,” Eaton
In the first authoritative study of the phenomenon, carried by the Sunday Times on February 22, some of the country’s top landowners, celebrities and the offspring of senior Establishment figures have embraced the Muslim faith after being disillusioned with western values.
The new study by Yahya (formerly Jonathan) Birt, son of Lord Birt, former director-general of the BBC, provides the first reliable data on the sensitive subject of the movement of Christians into Islam.
He uses a breakdown of the latest census figures to conclude that there are now 14,200 white reverts in Britain.
Mass Conversion
Speaking publicly for the first time about his faith this weekend, Birt argued that an inspirational figure, similar to the American revert Malcolm X for Afro-Caribbeans, would first have to emerge if the next stage, a mass conversion among white Britons, were to happen.
“You need great transitional figures to translate something alien (like Islam) into the vernacular,” Birt, whose doctorate at Oxford University is on young British Muslims, was quoted by the Times.
“The image of Islam projected by political Islamic movements is not very attractive,” he said.
Initially, Birt said he had no coherent reasons for reverting, but “in the longer term I think it was the overall profundity, balance and coherence and spirituality of the Muslim way of life which convinced me,” he said.
‘All Rage’
Meanwhile, it emerged this weekend that Emma Clark, the great-granddaughter of a British prime minister has reverted.
Emma, whose ancestor, the Liberal prime minister Herbert Asquith, took Britain into the first world war, said: “We’re all the rage, I hope it’s not a passing fashion.”
Clark, who helped design an Islamic garden for the Prince of Wales at Highgrove, his Gloucestershire home, is now helping create a similar garden for a mosque in Woking, Surrey, on the site of a car park, said the British newspaper.
Furthermore, fresh evidence came this weekend that Islam has received formal acceptance at the heart of the Establishment.
The Queen has approved new arrangements to allow Muslim staff at Buckingham Palace time off to attend Friday prayers at a mosque.
A member of staff in the finance department is the first to take advantage of it, said the British paper.
‘Trophy Lists’
Others have come to Islam through love or marriage.
Kristiane Backer, a former girlfriend of the cricketer Imran Khan, said she was introduced to the religion through love but reverted after her break-up.
She has shrunk from speaking publicly about her religion before because of fears it might affect her work prospects.
“Imran sowed the seeds, but when (the relationship) finished (the faith) took on a momentum of its own,” she said.
Drawn to Sufi mysticism, Baker said that white reverts had to overcome prejudice both from those born into Islam and from non-believers.
“In the mosque women come up and say to me, ‘You have hair showing: you must cover up completely.’ I say, ‘Mind your own hair, you’re here to think about God’ ”.
Many reverts have been inspired by the writings of Charles Le Gai Eaton, a former Foreign Office diplomat, it added.
“I have received letters from people who are put off by the wishy-washy standards of contemporary Christianity and they are looking for a religion which does not compromise too much with the modern world,” said Eaton, author of Islam and the Destiny of Man.
Wary
Some prominent reverts are even more wary, said the Times.
The Earl of Yarborough, 40, who owns a 28,000-acre estate in Lincolnshire, declined to discuss anything about his faith.
“I have nothing to say to you,” said Yarborough, who has apparently taken the name Abdul Mateen.
Muslim leaders are harnessing modern campaigning methods to promote their faith. Groups have sprung up on the internet publishing “trophy lists” of white reverts.
The state-funded school in London founded by Yusuf Islam, formerly the singer Cat Stevens, has turned to Premiership footballers to provide role models, said the Times.
Sources close to the school say reverts including Nicolas Anelka, the Manchester City striker, and Omer “Freddie” Kanoute, of Tottenham Hotspur, have made visits.
The trend is being encouraged by Muslim leaders who are convinced that the conversion of prominent society figures will help protect a community stigmatized by “terrorism and fundamentalism“.
The Muslim Council of Britain has co-opted Joe Ahmed-Dobson, son of Frank Dobson, the former health secretary, to chair its regeneration committee.
“The community has been unfairly targeted and these developments encourage it in a time of difficulty,” said Zaki Badawi, chairman of the Imams and Mosques Council.
Source: Islamonline.net
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The reason they quote is a bit strange. Anyway everyone have their freedom to choose what they want.
hindus on this board are hypocrites. Christians,Muslims, and Jews kill the animals and process it for the market. Hindus sell that meat to Christians,Muslims, or Jews to earn the money and turns around lectures the Christian,Muslim, or a Jew how peaceful he is...mind bogling
to all the people against killing animals birds or anything etc: i am wondering if you all hindus are so against killing animals then why do you serve the meat to us muslims and christians??? what kinda bread? what kinda meat??
sauce, vegetable etc,,,make money selling food!!! lmao indian grocers sell all kinds of meat!! seven11s frozen fast food (meat)!! wth !
I am not sure who lectured you about it. But there are different levels of practice in Hinduism. It is not mandatory for being vegetarian. But being vegetarian is treated as ideal thing to do. You should only ask this if the person lecturing you is maintaining a meat shop.
This should also answer your other comment about hypocrisy. In Hinduism, religious views are strictly personal. No 2 Hindus have the same view. So you can not make one Hindu accountable for other person's views.
@Arjun, do you have zoo's in India? If you do, then do you have lions? and if you do have lions then what do you feed them? meat or lettuce? You see where I am trying to get at. It is in the nature of lions to eat meat. We aren't any different but have intelligence; therefore, we have the choice. There are people of many faiths who choose to eat just vegetables. The issue here is the faith and not the choice and the people on this board are just doing that! If Hindu religion sees consuming meat as abhorrent then its ok but that shouldn't apply for everyone. It’s a circle of life. And it is not the one we saw on Lion King. It doesn't work like that.
muslim is a pagan religion..kill all the muslim way as they kill animals....
Suddenly the people who eat KFC 24/7 are out en mass protecting the killing of sheep, hailing themselves as the defenders of animals rights. The USA kills millions of chickens, pigs, and cows so that you can enjoy your BLT sandwich. In Islam, 1/3 of the goats meat goes to the impoverished, who are hunger stricken, at zero cost (the other 1/3 goes to you, and the other 1/3 goes to close friends). Tone down the hypocrisy.
And what you do with all the people...
are you assuming that no Muslim breaks their religion?
EVERYONE PLEASE READ THIS ARTICLE!
http://www.fountainmagazine.com/article.php?ARTICLEID=403
Another one trying to justify with bigoted biased article written by some mullah or if not by him then sponsored by mullah. Why do you want to kill animal and give it less pain? Why can't you avoid killing itself of so many animals in a single day in the name of religion? Don't you feel guilty and try to explain yourself and others by unscientific theories which has no proof and published in some unscientific Islamic magazine. Your embarassment is so obvious.
Suddenly the people who eat KFC 24/7 are out en mass protecting the killing of sheep, hailing themselves as the defenders of animals rights. The USA kills millions of chickens, pigs, and cows so that you can enjoy your BLT sandwich. In Islam, 1/3 of the goats meat goes to the impoverished, who are hunger stricken, at zero cost (the other 1/3 goes to you, and the other 1/3 goes to close friends). Tone down the hypocrisy.
This troll Nokious is on rhetorical and idiotic argument spree. He can only be a Pakistani. It also proves further guilt and embarassment in people like him who attack sane voices with rhetorical stupid statements with no relation to discussion. He feels guilty and is very embarrassed with his hypocritical religion and from the fact that he must have been fu*** goat which he raised for sacrifice and then kill it and eat it while shouting "Allah-hu-Akbar". LoL.
hey voice of reason: why don't you enter a lion or tiger's cage and prepare for whats to happen to you. These beautiful animals will slaugher and eat you. Like you pointed out, THEY TOO ARE BUILT FOR IT.
Then you are history and just like the fate of animals, NOT A TEAR SHED FOR YOU. Its all in the game -its fair field!!
i'm tired of people trying to say eating meat is cruel. WE'RE BUILT FOR IT! slaughtering and eating an animal should not be a guilty pleasure. get over it.
Farrakh...why don't you sacrifice yourself (AND OH BY THE WAY, DO IT TO YOURSELF) and distribute whatever you have slaughteredoff your body, make biryani with it and give it to the poor for charity. IN THE NAME OF CHARITY...YOU DO TALK TOTAL CRAP.
Its a CRUEL RELIGIOUS PRACTICE AND I HAVE SEEN HOW 100'S OF GOATS, AND COWS WALKED DOWN THE STREET IN INDIA TO THE SLAUGHTER HOUSE FOR THE KILL....AND ITS THE MUSLIMS WHO DO THAT ALL THE TIME.
Pradip, i can tell you have a goat fetish. You can't resist the temptation once you see a goat. You probably have a half-brother who is a goat too, from that one time your dad did it with that one hot goat.
Hindus should not wrongly post their views as the entire religion's views. Hindus also have the animal sacrifices. And in fact it is practiced today at large scale in many temples of Kali. So no need of criticizing others. All the religions are noble. Every person who follows any of those religion in true spirit and respects other religions is noble.
Amen, shalom and blessed be.
Allah lives in all lives, be it aminal or human being. Killing animals means you are killing Allah. Be a vegiterian, Allah will be happy.
So you're saying you worship your goat?
Better to respect by not killing, then killing and eating it as your primitive desert born primitive religion taught you.
That is interesting statement. Can you quote the source of this statement? I dont remember reading this from Quron.
Its BARBARIOUS what is done on this supposedly religious day. And this woman Saima writes about this 'slaughtering a cow family activity' with such cultural and religious pride. Shame on this CRUEL, INHUMAN AND SAVAGE act. And then she talks about eating all parts. RUTHLESS AND UNCULTURED WAY OF BEING. Have you ever thought about why you do not pick a human being for slaughter? Thats because animals have no voice, no power and are defenseless. This bad karma will come back to affect Saima and all that she does. And this goes for others like her. Remember that 'what goes around comes around' and no one is spared of the wrath of bad karma.
LOL. I am amazed how some people are justifying killing on this forum by explaining it with less pain or sharp knife etc. This suggest that there is guilt feeling for killing. Why to kill then in first place? How can you justify that? Some people suggest it as a food for poor people. You can feed many more people if you use the same amount of money on vegetarian food.
Admit it. You lost your virginity to a goat, yeah?
LoL. It proves further guilt and embarassment in people like you who then attack sane voices with rhetorical stupid statements with no relation to discussion. I know you are guilty and embarrassed further as you must have been fu*** goat which you raised for sacrifice and then kill it and eat it while shouting "Allah-hu-Akbar". The sentence which you finished by "yeah" make it more obvious as that scene whould've gone through your mind. LoL.
U wanna be a vegetarian go for it ..u wanna worship animals and drink cows urine do it but don't expect every one to follow u....we will continue eating meat of your god cow mata.
Urine comes from body. You eat the body anyway. Dont insult others without knowing facts. Yes. you have the freedom. No one should question it. Animals dont have freedom anyway.
Also even a terrorist should have freedom to kill people. Is it not?
I understand that the education system has left huge gaps in this country, but to compare animals to plants is too stupid even for those who have got their schooling in the US! For starters, read Maneka Gandhi's book Heads and Tails. It is in simple English and has short sentences. It will explain the difference between the two categories along with human digestive system. Meanwhile, don't try to plant a chicken, goat, etc out in the backyard and expect a tree of the same!
I am Buddhist and a human being with a life. I feel pain, have fear, and fear death. And so animals.
This practice of slaughtering animals is CRUEL and BARBARIC. Imagine the authors stating so callously that they "select, slaugther and...." How can they look into the cow's eyes and kill I cannot imagine. Its cold blooded. I wonder what messages they are sending to their children. Gods in NONE of the religions ask for the blood of animals!
Have you ever seen a fawn run through a thresher, Rani? Uncountable birds and animals die providing vegetables and produce to people like you and me.
How can you wash your hands of the karma debt required to prepare fields for crops, kill insects that prey on the crops, and bring those crops to your table?
Are you really causing less suffering by turning your face way from the death in your vegetables? Is that an honest path?
We had to be sustained by one or the other living being. This can not be avoided. This is the design of God. Some he designed as vegetarian, some as meat eaters. vegetarian animals do not eat meat. Only human beings are braking this rule.
Is human being designed for being vegetarian. I would disagree, if you could eat mean without cooking. We also cook vegetables. But there are many fruits and vegetable that can eaten without cooking. You could argue that God has given intelligence so that you could cook meat. I assume God has given the intelligence for doing something better than cooking.
I agree with you that cultivation involves killing. But all the pesticides are modern inventions. On the other side of it, meat eaters are not saving plants any way. They eat them too.
Not all life is same. Killing a human is more cruel than killing animal. Killing insects etc, may not be as cruel as killing animal. This is my view. Dont attach it to any religion. Killing plants also sin, but lowest on the list based on pain they go through.
I am not trying to preach you. I just answering your question.
This article crack me up. LoL. Killing goat for own taste buds and then celebrating it as sacrifice. Height of hypocrisy. "Using a whole animal is a spiritual experience for me and the staff here because we respect the animal that has given up its life for us to consume" LoL, as if animal came and ask them to kill it or commit suicide so that people can eat. Animal goes through tremendous pain and ofcourse no animal want to get killed. Don't forget human is also an animal just an evolved animal with larger brain. There is always a possibility of even further evolved animal on another planet with larger brain power. What if they invade earth and start sacrificing human and then respect it by consuming its every part? As if it would matter to human after getting killed.
Your ex (a goat, obviously) is asking you for child support for your little cubs. The goat demands you buy it lettuce every morning.
The Islamic/Kosher way of slaughtering animals is actually MUCH more merciful than stunning the animal first. Most animals have at least one or two failed stuns before they are actually unconscious...OUCH! The Islamic and Jewish ways of killing animals are done so that the animal experiences the least amount of pain possible....that is, a very sharp knife (and it is religiously required in Islam for the knife to be very, very sharp so that it goes by quickly) and the animal is killed immediately. If you actually research it, you'll find that animals suffer very, very badly when they are stunned...
@starr killing is killing, no matter how 'medicalized' the process may be! It is desensitizing! Also, killing animals to rid one of their sins or please some god is just stupid! Next people will be killing people to please god and get to heaven! Will then also we would debate methodology!
Here is muslim world, how cruel!!
@Mslimrogs I dare not click on the video but thanks for putting it here for those who still think killing could be religious or spiritual! It is no wonder that these folks also dont think twice before butchering people in the name of religion, pleasing god and going to heaven!
@Carnivorous, i didnt say anything about a particular animal. the argument is killing is killing- pretending it to be humane or spiritual is just hypocritical! and no, i dont kill/eat any animals, birds, fish, eggs etc! but that's not really the point! the point is about the hypocrisy where people think that killing animals would rid them of their sins or please their god! next you know, people will be killing people in hopes of pleasing god and going to heaven! oh wait! may be that's happening already! As for the human digestive system, read Maneka Gandhi's book Heads and Tails. That should get you started and fill some gaps left behind by this country's education system!
This is cleary ignorant people cruelty, nothing to do with Islam at all. All countries in the world have their own places of ignorance as well, and Pakistan is no different, but one thing I can assure you, in that same area of Pakistan you can seldom hear of crimes as we know in the west, can you walk in the night in the "ignorant" areas of the USA or Mexico City?.
Starr,
What verifiable science are you referencing to make the claim halal killing is better than stunning them first? It's a rhetorical question because none exist to support your claim. The only reason it is done is simply because these individuals think it's the right way to do it because of their religion. Personally i find it repugnant but hey if you want to do it knock yourself out and have at it just don't try to support it with blatantly false claims. Oh almost forgot-an inconvenient truth is that Jihadists employ the same technique when sawing off their victims heads to the shouts of "Alluh Akbar"!
Wilbur
Those criticizing Islamic dietary code are hypocrites – eating additionally other meats including filthy pork, the source of MRSA and Trichinosis. Same hypocrites who criticize Islam for allowing marrying up to 4, are keeping many mistresses without shame and morals.
IT MAY MAKE IT CLEAR TO UNDERSTAND THAT MUSLIMS AND JEWS (and some Christians) WORSHIP ALMIGHTY GOD – while Sikhs, Buddhists or Hindus worship ANIMALS.
The message speaks for itself
The lord resides in one and in all and therefore I shall pray to one and to all.. and though you are a bigot and unintelligent, I bow and salute the divinity in you..may you be blessed with more of what you desire.
If you cannot give life..than you do not have any right to take one.
xmxmxm, can you quote just one verse from Bhagavad gita, supporting your statement that..
If love, respect, care is same as worship for you, sure we worship. Is it not better than killing them.
Bhagavad gita says that "The learned person sees a saintly person, an elephant, a dog, a dog eater in the same way". The reason being the life force that is working in all of us same. It could be fan, AC, heater, computer. But driving force is the same electricity.
One who sees this certainly values the life of all living entities including plants.
For all Hindus, from the quote above, it asks you not look down upon those who eats meat. Doing so only shows self pride nothing. If you are concerned about life, they are following what God allowed them to do. So dont try to be better kind person than God.
COMPLEX IGNORANCE!!!! Let's tell our government to stop mass (human) murder in wars before lecturing what OTHERS should do or not do!!!!
All these people who are against killing an animal should protest outside steakhouses and grocery stores who sell meat products throughout the world. And dont forget to feed and raise the animals and then bury them once they die of their natural death. Why single out Muslims for killing the animals. Dont Christians and Jews eat meat. Why you have a problem with BAKRA EID (urdu word, not Arabic). The writer is from Karachi. Not from middle east.
The whole story; Abram "Abraham" stop and do not hurt the child, (stop killing your son) and the Angel of the Lord brought to you the sacrifice "the offering", Your faith made you the father of many nations. Period.
His (Abram) faith is "It is God the maker of heaven and earth trust in Him and be obedient.
God played a stupid game to test Abraham until He realized He Himself sinned.
I thought sacrifice was something that you do to yourself.. it is cowardice to give pain to something else in name of sacrifice.. why dont you slice your own finger to show that instead?
LoL. Well Said! Killing goat for own taste buds and then celebrating it as sacrifice. Height of hypocrisy.
It is a personal sacrifice. A goat is a food item, and therefore giving it away to the poor is a FINANCIAL SACRIFICE.
Why kill poor goat to make financial sacrifice? You can give away money or something else. Don't try to justify killing but no wonder this religion justify even human killings in name of Jihad. It is just the goat.
lol....so if you provide some service it would be called human sacrifice?!!!!!!
I agree with you - it's not a sacrifice if you're not the one who's actually sacrificing something. For those who have means, spending an extgra $100 or $200 isn't a big deal, even if it's donated to charity. It's better than nothing, but i'd hardly consider it a true sacrifice.
However, based on the crappy quality of this article, I suspect they're not properly portraying some aspects of Bakra Eid and so I hesitate to have too strong an opinion based on this. But ultimately it is the poor animal that is sacrificing, if anything . All this talk about "respect for the animal" doesn't really mean anything unless they talk about how it is raised, is it given a chance to play, live in a natural setting, slaughtered very quickly, transported comfortably, etc. Just saying "Yeah I respect the animal" rings very hollow unless you do something to show that animal respect. This article irritated me more than anything, and I feel like I know nothing real about Eid after all that. Total BS "journalism."
CNN thinks its job is to educate. However, journalism is meant to inform only. There IS a difference.
Animal sacrifice? Just when I thought it couldn't get more primitive.
They dont sacrifice the goat for God, to give to charity and the hungry who are less fortunate. Therefore, it is not primitive at all. Thats like saying, give free hotdogs to homeless people is primitive. Since pigs are killed.
The goat is not sacrificed and thrown away. It is sacrificed and given to the hungry, charity, the less fortunate. Therefore, it is not primitive at all. Thats like saying, give free hotdogs to homeless people is primitive. Since pigs are killed.
The author forgot to mention, and the reading audience does not realize, that Muslims do not SIMPLY sacrifice the goat. The goat or lamb is sacrificed and GIVEN to charity. To the poor, for food. For example, my father this weekend.. gave 160 dollars to a charity to buy a goat and have it sacrificed in the name of God, for the sake of charity to the less fortunate. I know this because I am an American born Muslim and I have done a lot more research on my religion than most people on this thread, especially since a lot of my peers have very skewed ideas about the customs of Islam, due to Fox News lol. I hope everyone has a wonderful day !!
hmmm....so why not give the 160 dollars to poor people directly instead of encouraging animal sacrifice?
everybody eats lamb (goat meat), this is the only way to slay an animal (especially a cow this big). The main artery that goes from the heart of the animal to the brain has to be cut so all the blood can drain out. It is not torture to animals by any means. Its not like cows that are cut in the US are respected when cut. I have heard they are electrocuted.
So by donating $160 to kill an animal, you are doing a great charity..Cannot you give money to poor or feed more poor with bread or milk of the cow whom are you killing to please your Allah.
Is the editor retarded.. the article makes no sense, the heading is sumthing and the content is sumthing else..
CNN Please teach journalism to ur guys ..
That's so not nice!! I keep two goats as pets and I feel bad that they get sacrificed. I understand lots of people around the world eat goat, and I myself do eat meat, but those poor goats tug at my heartstrings!! Puddin' and Patches, be assured, Mom will never eat you!!
Good that you are not going to eat your goats or any other goats. Just remember that all animals value their life and eating the meat of one animal is no better or worse than eating the meat of another. Each one of those beings is losing a life that they consider precious.
Look in the mirror next time and notice the four canine teeth in your mouth they are there to eat meat. No more arguements please!!! Love my steak, yummmmy.
why don't you google "the best speech you ever heard" and be a little more informed.ignorance is no excuse for cruelty.
Goat for it!
The worst article to describe Eid al Adha on the biggest celebration day of Muslims! Shame on CNN not to ask a knowledgeable Muslim leader to explain what it is and what Muslims do during this celebration. Whoever wrote this article must not know nothing about Islam and this tradition, but heard a few fictional stories of Eid. This fiction article cannot represent Eid al Adha and its purposes. We'll see how they will cover Thanksgiving!
You should watch video of how they kill a cow or a goat and enjoy the process. It all happens in front of kids – so no wonder some of these kids grow up to have no respect for basic human rights.
Then you should watch videos how Israel and United States kill innocent people in the middle east for oil and soil! Shame on you too for not respecting to the order of God! Because billions of people believed in that religion and still billion of people believe in that religion! Even if you don't agree with slaughtering an animal in the order of God, you should show a bit respect and try to understand why billions of people doing it!
I understand CNN's going overboard to embrace Islam, but this is just sick! How can these people think that killing animal is spiritual! What's next? Killing people to get to heaven! This is so sick and hypocritical! Also once you kill an animals who cares what parts you eat or dont eat! Really! Is that your claim to 21st century! ugh! Stop killing. Period.
Dude, then stop eating Chicken that has life too.. Stop eating herbs coz that has life too... comeon dude use ur common sense..go to school and study human digestive system...
@Carnivorous, i didnt say anything about a particular animal. the argument is killing is killing- pretending it to be humane or spiritual is just hypocritical! and no, i dont kill/eat any animals, birds, fish, eggs etc! but that's not really the point! the point is about the hypocrisy where people think that killing animals would rid them of their sins or please their god! next you know, people will be killing people in hopes of pleasing god and going to heaven! oh wait! may be that's happening already!
@Carnivorous as for the human digestive system, read Maneka Gandhi's book Heads and Tails. That should get you started and fill some gaps left behind by this country's education system!
I so agree with you.I have never been able to understand how people think the death of another being,human or not,is reason for celebration or joy.If we want to educate children, show them constructive images and experiences that do not involve the killing of an innocent animal.
Please stop commenting with your shallow sense about Islam. The writer of this article perhaps is not as articulated or knowledgeable..., Please do your own and true research of Islam.Remember Islam is not that hollow. And please make sure you do NOT disrespect Islam.There are 1.57 billion Muslims in the world and they are not fool. If you think I'm wrong, there are 1.57 billion people who cannot be wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Muslim_population
http://www.nonebutonegod.com/
http://www.islamicpopulation.com/world_general.html
Population is not a measure.Can we then say that, 5.5 billion people rejected islam. I am not saying that either. But that's not a case for you.
Unlike other religions muslims kill goat/cow in order to purify themselves of their sins.
Those of you who are too obtuse to get the real info about this Eid in this information age and instead make insulting comment like "what kind of God require killing animals?" shame on you! I can only guess that that kind of statement is usually from a Hindu. Well, I was watching Mahabharata (English translation) and in there was a statement that "God was carrying a sword". I could make a similar comment like Raj who said "What kind of God this religion have", couldn't I?
Even Buddhist or Sikhs do not kill animals to please God. So it is not just Hindus...Read faithfreedom.org to enlighten yourself about this cult that practices Eid
What you might have rad about is demi god. But they have a duty to protect people.
"the meat is fresh, aromatic and has a soft and subtle texture"...that statement alone is just disgusting...and the killing of all those animals is shameful.I hope someday human beings will REALLY respect and consider animals as sentient beings who experience fear and pain and not just as food.I am so glad I am a vegan.
A culture founded on violence to living beings can only create violence. Organized religion is the most destructive force in the world. Mass murders of animals can hardly be a day of celebration – be it Eid or Thanksgiving. Humanity should learn to respect life forms not to have pity on the lives it destroys but for its own sake. Nature will find a way around man's aggressions – it is our culture that is going extinct.
well said!!I totally agree ...religion is the worst thing on this planet.
Bakra is COW not goat. I guess they taught you wrong!
@Tamer
Bakra does mean a GOAT and NOT a cow in Urdu. you are clearly wrong.
Bakra is a male goat and Bakri is a female goat.
I am surprised how CNN could post such pathetic and sick commentary.."..Using a whole animal is a spiritual experience for me and the staff here because we respect the animal that has given up its life for us to consume.” that shows the pathetic, pitiable, primitive state of mind, culture and idealogy.
Put yourself in Animals shoes to see how you feel.
Better yet, you yourself in humans' shoes too how life is like with little to eat. Refering to poor people.
Not wanting to kill an animal has nothing to do with poor people having something or nothing to eat. You get more bang for your buck with vegetarian foods and proteins . Meat is much costlier to raise and supply. The healthiest and most cost-effective and environmentally friendly way for the world's entire population to get fed would be through an animal-free diet.
The article describes killing an animal as a "spiritual experience". This is the height of hypocrisy!
Most people will think twice about consuming meat if they paid a single visit to a slaughterhouse, and see the pain and suffering needlessly imposed on billions of animals for "protein". Vegetarian food is just as nutritious, healthier, and so much better for the planet.
Oh Mike, I kill animals all the time for food purposes. Doesn't even phase me or 90% of the people who watch. Everyone is free to eat whatever they want, but trust me, if you think people will get sick over watching someone take a twenty pound hammer to a cow's head and then razor wire to the neck, then you don't know people.
I've seen the lot of them just stare in awe and some get a little jumpy at the whole thing but none that get disgusted at it.
"well then",you contradict yourself when you say you "feel more compassion for feeding my family and the family of others than I do for the animal".Why does feeding your family have to imply an animal dying?It is not an "either or" choice.What you are saying is that if animals don't die, your family won't be fed which, as we know, is not true.As humans we are lucky enough to be able to decide what we eat (versus other animals who don't have that choice).You choose to eat what you eat in spite of the knowledge that you are inflicting pain upon innocent creatures who do not deserve it and who are kind,trusting (wrongly so) and beautiful souls.Therefore, you are heartless and eat what your eat purely out of selfishness.And though you may feel pain, it is nothing compared to the anguish,stress,suffering ,fear and eventually,intense pain these creatures go through so excuse me, but the "pain" you say you feel is of a completely different nature and intensity.Your reasoning is jself-centered and based on the fact that just because gentle,noble creatures are defenseless,we SHOULD slaughter and eat them.It is a flawed train of thought and it saddens and amazes me (and not in a good way) to see how otherwise "intelligent" beings can revert to egotistical beings to justify the unjustifiable.Google " the greatest speech you ever heard" and ,if you have a few minutes, watch it and then try and continue justifying the acts of violence we commit upon animals purely for selfish reasons.
Well,Mike, as you can see from the heartless answer from "well then", there are a lot of cruel people on this earth.I hope someday people will have empathy and compassion for the suffering animals go through.They have as much of a right to live as humans do and they feel pain and fear too.But you cannot get through to some ignorant people.That's just the way it is,unfortunately.Thanks for not being one of those.
To each their own Dolphintam. If someone feels they want to be vegan because of the pain it causes, so be it. Maybe the world is mostly heartless? I couldn't give you a definitive answer. Do the animals feel pain? Oh yeah, most likely tons of it. I feel pain too, it's just what we are. Do I feel sorry for the animal? No, I sure don't. Does that make me heartless? Depends, I feel more compassion for feeding my family and the family of others than I do for the animal.
But take heart, if someone wants to be vegan because they can't stomach the idea of killing something that feels pain, then more power to you! I would be ecstatic if people who ate meat took half the interest that people who are vegetarians did in their food. I would love nothing more than for people to see what goes on, if that turns them then at least they know absolutely why they are the way they are. I prefer an educated decision more over than some abstract idea. So if that makes me heartless then so be it, but I would rather people come to their own conclusion by seeing what goes on than just disagree without knowing why, for sure, they disagree.
Of course that's not to say anyone here falls into that mind set. I think vegetarians think more highly of their food than anyone else, and I'd love to see that in non-vegetarians more often. No matter the end result.
Eid-Ul-Zuha or Bakr-Idd), a grand celebration for Muslims.
There are many religions in India. Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, and Sikhism are some of the major religions in India. People of these religions celebrate their festivals colourfully. Muslim festivals like Ramzan and Bakri Eid are celebrated with great will and dedication. Like Ramzan (Eid Ul-Fitr), Bakri Eid (also referred as Eid-Ul-Azha, Eid-Ul-Zuha or Bakr-Idd) is a grand celebration for Muslims. Muslims all over India and outside India celebrate Bakri Eid from the tenth to the twelfth day in the Islamic month of Dhul Hijjah.
Significance of Bakri Eid
There is a fascinating story that states the significance of Bakri Eid. Once, Allah challenged Prophet Ibrahim, the friend of Allah and the father of Prophets. Ibrahim had to prove his faith in Allah. Allah asked him to sacrifice the dearest and nearest one in his life. Ibrahim decided to take up the challenge and decided to sacrifice his son Ismail.
Ibrahim's faith in Allah
His love towards his son was as strong as his faith in Allah. Though his heart went numb, he put his son on the altar at the mount of Mina near Mecca. It was impossible to see his son dying in front of his eyes. He could not imagine slaying his own child but he could not deny the order of higher power.
Ibrahim sacrifices his son
He closed his eyes and raised the sharp sword. Reciting Allah's name he divided the head from the body. He opened his eyes and could not believe on his senses. His son Ismail was standing healthy and hearty in front of his eyes. A dead ram with his head apart was lying in the pool of blood. Ibrahim emerged as a winner as he accepted god's challenge with complete faith.
Power of Allah and Quran
Since then people ardently believe in the mercy of Allah and in the authenticity of Quran. They devotionally sacrifice a ram on Eid-Ul-Zuha. On the holy occasion of Eid-Ul-Zuha, prayers are offered by Muslims and animals are sacrificed to show faith and sincerity towards Islam. The festival also signifies the Ibrahim's belief in almighty.
On the occasion of Bakri Eid, Muslims sacrifice animals (goat or ox) in admiration of prophet Ibrahim's faith in Allah. This sacrifice is known as qurbani. A Muslim, who performs slaughter, makes three portions of the meat. He shares the meat with his fellow beings. One third part of the meat is distributed amongst the poor. One third part of the meat is for family and friends of the person who bought the animal. The last third part is for the household of the butcher. For Muslims Bakri Eid is the time to meet relatives, to enjoy feasts, and to seek Allah's blessings. May Allah shower his blessing on you! Happy Bakri Eid!
Would not it be nice to donate money to poor rather than giving meat to poor who might not be vegetarian...Dont tell us fairy tales to justify killings. No sacrifices of animals done in Sikhism, Buddhism or Hinduism.. Dont group your blood thirsty religion with eastern vegetarian religions..
*who might be vegetarians
I know religious buddhist and hindu people who eat meat - why do you refer to them as eastern vegetarian religions? From what I know of Hinduism, only the brahmins are supposed to be vegetarian, many of whom are not vegetarians any way. It's unecessary to insult somebody's religion calling it "blood-thirsty." There is ample blood-thirsty violence in the Old Testament and the Mahabarath as well. SEems like all of these religions formed under more violent times and all of the texts have some very ugly elements to them (along with good things of course). It's not fair to single out one religion the way you did.
What kind of God this religion have. He needs killing to prove love ? The story above says some one killed his son to prove love, then why this tradition is imposed on animals now ? In fact this religion is obsolete see from the mouth of Muslim http://www.faithfreedom.org/
Same God as that in the Jewish and Christian faith.As you see this was only a test to see if God comes before self.Any Imam or Priest will clearly tell you what God wants is a sacrifice of your selfish desires.As mentioned in the holy Quran ,it is not the blood or flesh of your sacrifice that reaches Him, but your sincere faith.
Islam believes that Ismael was the one to be sacrificed by Abraham but it actually is Isaac because he (Isaac) was the seed of promise to test Abraham faith. It just don't make any sense that it would be Ismael because the promise was not given to Hagar or Ismael..See what happens if you have and affair with the wrong women (hagar). Shame on Abraham for doing this and Shame on Sara for suggesting this to have children by a bond maid. But I guess back then it was considered ok..today it is not because of the trouble it causes. Some thing never change.
Messager of God..
If you were a messager of God, you would understand what the God of Abraham Issac and Jacob has said in his word what you are enspousing is folly.
One that knows the difference mentions that the son Ibraham was asked to scarafy was Issac and not Ishmael.. but if you look at the bible carefully you will read that God asked Ibraham to scrafy his only son .. and some of the bible versions add later the word (Issac) .. but if you believe in the bible you will know that the only time Ibraham has one son, is when he had Ishmael, before he had the 2nd son Issac from Sara 12 years later.. that unless you believe that Ishmael is not Ibraham son...
Ok i like eating meat. ( Who doesnt?) I dont like torturing animals and as long as animals are killed in the least painful way and hygenic way ( In reference to hala and kosher). And that is all I ask. STOP bashing the faith of people and instead recommend a solution to something that appears to problem. I.e if you are not an ignorant idiot who just likes bashing Muslims .
Your statement being height of stupidity by claiming Who doesnt like eating meat. Must be from a stupid faith that you are trying to defend.
Respect the animal by eating it completely instead of the tastiest parts! What a load of crap! Either respect the animal by not killing it or do whatever the hell you want after killing it. Stop fooling yourself. Once it is dead, it is dead, sorry to disappoint. If some super-aliens land up on earth tomorrow to eat humans including you are you going to care if they eat you completely after killing you or only the best parts.
whether its killing of massive animals in a slaughter house on daily basis or killing a bulk in a single day such as eid day.........its all the same...........this is a typical hypocrisy of ones that raise concerns on this day.........unless of course vegans speaks for themselves.
Showing respect to the animal is fine. Hope some of these very people show at least some respect to the people of other religions. Killing people in the name of religion on one side and happily killing animals on the other side is all a matter of justifying one's unnecessary actions which should never take place in this world.
By the way, who ever translated baker-eid to 'Eid of goat'; must be very naive, ignorant. As the Bakara in Arabic, means Cow.There is a whole chapter in Quran (Chapter -2 ).
Keep your killing themed chapters and the book to yourself. No need to tell anybody about bloody chapters of a book.
Bakra is an Urdu word which means he goat and bakri means she goat. What you are referring to is Baqra in Arabic which means cow.
Well,
Dont put on your shirt. You are killing Microorganisms. Think about it.
Killing an animal consciously and claiming it to be pleasing a God is way different from wearing a shirt.
“Using a whole animal is a spiritual experience for me and the staff here because we respect the animal that has given up its life for us to consume.” – What a joke. Why not respect the animal by not killing it. Cruel religion with cruel traditions.
you are a moron.
Your lame reply with no argument shows who is moron. A moron only can please God by making others suffer rather than disciplining oneself.
I agree with Colin, why Kill another being to feed one's hunger – AHIMSA – preach & follow
Because we are hungry
Slaughtering to the Gods is a little odd to me, in this day and age. But respecting the animal you're about to eat and appreciating what it's giving you – what a nice thing for children to learn.
A friend of mine once said she could never kill and eat an animal, though she enjoys eating every meat under the sun. It's so hypocritical to me, to be willing to eat the animal, but never face it and appreciate the gift you're receiving. People should see where their food comes from!
" It's so hypocritical to me, to be willing to eat the animal, but never face it and appreciate the gift you're receiving. People should see where their food comes from!"
Why? Should people become computer programmers if they want to write a novel or a business proposal or put up a Facebook page? Should they become pilots so they'll appreciate their flight home for the holidays more? Over the last few thousands of years people have learned to do what they do best and leave the rest to others.
A pilot doesn't have to undergo great personal suffering and loss of life to fly you in a plane, nor does a computer programmer need to do that to get your computer going. If somebody spent 10 hours preparing a meal for you, you should know that so that you appreciate it and don't just throw out the leftovers. This isn't about just knowing everything about what there is to know, it's abount understanding the sacrifice and the trade-off that is involved in getting something for you and being truly appreciative and knowledgeable. If you spend a day watching the insides of your computer getting taken apart and put back together, it's not going to change the way you use your computer. If you visit a slaughterhouse, chances are it'll change the way you feel about eating meat (or at least, it did for me). It made me INFINITELY more conscious about how much I was eating/using, making me want to reduce as much as possible to minimize the pain I was putting other creatures through. I eventually gave it up all together, but prior to that I didn't think twice about ordering more than I needed and just throwing the rest away.
It was NOT slaughtering *to* the Gods, moron.
Am I the only one who finds it appalling that, in the 21st Century, we still feel the need to kill dumb animals to appease the whims of some non-existent Palestinean sky-god, be it Jewish, Christian or Muslim?
No, There are many and I do feel the same. Religion specially where you can question makes you dumb and which is what happening with religious practices. People are following it and justifying it with silly reasons. Religion is obscure in todays world. I would rather celebrate science which has given what religion used to promise. You can be treated by medicine. You can see and talk to people thousand miles away. You can make environmental comfortable to yourself and heaven is on earth. There is no heaven anywhere else.
I THINK INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY! I LOVE THE IDEA OF OLD & NEW IT ADDS TO THE FLAVOR. SPEECHLESS
Correction: Not Isaac. It's Abraham's son Ishmael.
Actually the Bible states it was Isaac. The Bible was written about 1800 years before Islam was conceived. As is the case when reading the Quran, many ideas are lifted straight from the Hebrew Bible and then distorted. Remember, Muhammad was angry that the Jews would not embrace Islam.
Joe, if you think that Mohammad changed Isaac to Ishmael, you are hopelessly clueless to understand that before Islam was firmly established, inconsistencies such as that one wee already in existence.
...yet the best time Jews ever had – has been UNDER Islam. Bible is written by anonymous writers contradicting each other. Quran only says what is True and guides to the right path – Quran challenges any soul to prove it wrong. No one has lived to stand-up for the challenge to this day! the few who tried accepted ISLAM. Your hatred of Islam aside, are you up to the challenge ?
When your idea of "proof" is what is written in a book, rather than scientifically established, you are free to believe your fantasies. Tell me, how old is the universe? Does evolution exist? Were there dinosaurs roaming the earth? What does Koran, the Bible, or any other religious text say about these matters? These are merely a crutch for those who cannot think for themselves.