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THE BIBLE SAYS IMMEDIATELY PRIOR TO THE LORDS PRAYER, "AVOID VAIN REPETITIONS.... AFTER THIS MANNER, PRAY...." Then he says the Lord's prayer. Oh, and Scott – You're a backslider... That is so obvious.
Edwords what kind of stupidity is that? If you let your kids decide whether to brush their teeth or not they wouldnt, if you let them decide to whether go to school or not, they wouldn't. If you let them decide whether to pray or not they wouldn't. You must teach your kids everything, they may not like it in the beginning but then they get used to it and end up liking it.
Watch a video of or better yet, visit a factory pig, cow, chicken or turkey farm and realize what you are praising God for. And then, think about our search for Earth-like planets that may soon yield a more powerful species and you may be praying for deliverance.
I think that thanking God for your food is like saying, tank you God for giving ME food while you are leting all those other people starve to death. NO, I do not say grace.
oops, forgot one thing, people who have true faith in Our Heavenly Father, His Son Jesus, and His Holy Spirit, believe because they've been given that gift from God. HE opens our eyes, HE writes our names in the Lamb's book of Life, and HE chooses who's eyes and ears will be opened, HE chooses who will be blessed with understanding. If someone is "atheist,agnostic,or unbelieving", don't try to change them,,,just pray for them. Faith is a gift, it comes from HIM, He picks us, not the other way around.
wow, I don't think this is what God meant when he told us to pray. A few years ago my young son came up with a wonderful table prayer. " thank you lord for all that you bless us with, and please bless, multiply, and share this food with the multitudes, like you did the loaves and the fish, especially with those who are hungry or less fortunate. In Jesus' name we share and give thanks. If you believe that Jesus is who he says he is, and that all things are possible through him, why not make grace an action prayer. Giving thanks is great, but sharing/helping others is what he asks of us. God bless and please,,,,when debating religious topics, stop attacking each other, especially those who claim to love God. Self-righteous arrogance/ignorance/or ego has been warned NOT to cause others to fall away.
There is literally no option for me. I don't pray, and I'm not going to, but I don't actively refuse. I just don't. The poll makes it seem like praying is the default, and it takes some special effort to not do so.
I try to remember to pray but sometimes its not before the meal but more in the middle of it. Normally it sounds like this "God this meal is great and I am thankful but please don't have this meal fight me back later"
More biblical reading before any of us give self-opinions. If you cannot give a biblical reasoning and give a corresponding biblical reference then we should not always spill our guts or we'll be looked at like those in Romans 1 & 2 leading/causing our brothers to stumble. We bless God for all things, including the food He provides daily. Christ Jesus thanked God as He broke bread, so should we. Stop the denomination wars and Have the mind of Christ; Kingdom Thoughts, gather the wheat of the harvest aka bringing the our siblings/prodigal sons and daughters back to God. Praying for us all! We are a team in the Body of Christ (ephesians).
Guys, Valerie is laboring under the common Catholic delusion that her salvation is based on her works or her "good deeds" .. Its only by our faith and the grace of God that we are saved (catholic or not)
I've never had lunch with anyone who prays before eating, and I would abstain if I did. Prayer is not a part of my life and I find it to be insulting, because it was a person who worked for that meal, it was not a gift from a god. The thanks should go to the person who earned the money to put the meal on the table. No work = no meal. I haven't seen anyone turn water to wine or create bread for the masses from a single loaf recently.
Interesting poll. My husband is an agnostic and I am an atheist. We are raising our daughter to think for herself. And yet, we say a prayer before every meal (even at restaurants). Friends who know we are atheists are always a bit surprised.
So why do we pray, even though we don't believe in god? The answer is pretty simple: it's relaxing. Plus, it's always good to remind yourself that you're thankful! I'm surprised that so many atheists think this is an issue. I wouldn't want my daughter's teachers to lead her class in prayer, but I see nothing wrong with saying "thank you" for your meal – even if you're really just thanking yourself!
thanks to all the christians who have made the point I would normally have to argue here, organized religion breeds hubris and an elite sense of entitlement in those who really buy in...its one thing to argue your own interpretation of an philosophical idea, but to act like you know you are right is hilarious! Thank you...keep saying these things out loud so the moderates that think you are normal come over to our side :)
Christians may pray because of these reasons:
(1 Corinthians 10:25) Eat anything that is sold in the market without letting your conscience trouble you. for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it". If an unbeliever invites you to his house and you wish to go, eat whatever is set before you, raising no question on the grounds of conscience.
1 Timothy 4:4 says, For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
Jesus even prayed for food so people want to be like Him: Luke 9:16 Then He took the five loaves and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, He blessed them, and brake, and gave to the disciples to set before the multitude.
The Bible is full of scriptures like these, But if you don't read the Bible I'm guessing you wouldn't know so I thought I'd show where to find it. I'm guessing also by some of these responses assuming Christians answered the poll question they don't even know why they pray before a meal.
This statement is only for Christians : if everything in the earth is the Lord's why are you talking about "what about me why not thank ME? I'm the one who did this." If that's you, you all should know better but I forgive you. lol
Prayer should be private, between God and oneself. If I bow my head to say grace in public, it remains a prayer between myself and God. I do not need to prove to the general public or any other individual how religious I am or how "Christian" I am. A specific religion, or even denomination, is irrelevant. It is the communion between one's God and oneself that matters.
Thankyou Sylver for saying the truth so well and not being so "righteous" prayer is just something some of us decide to do and is usually private. If I'm eating with my parents or my girlfriend that is also christian than we bow our heads and one of us prays out loud but is usually the loudness of a whisper so we don't interupt anybody else. Other than that when I'm alone it is always a private thing between me and God. It was awesome one day I was at a mall and started to pray before I ate and the guy next to me asked if he could join me it was such an awesome experience.
Prayer is a request for good things to happen or to offer something up to God. Im Catholic, I pray the same thing for meals every day, just because another denomination says something different doesn't mean it's wrong.
"I actively refuse". What? What sort of nimrod made this poll? People just don't pray before meals. It's like asking if you actively refuse to purchase balloons.
And "It's never been a part of my life, but I'm not opposed." Could you just try harder to convert some people?
Even the choices for those who do pray are poorly stated. How about Always, usually, only on special occasions?
What terrible choices. "I actively refuse"? What the heck? As if not praying before eating requires one to go out of his way? And "It's never been a part of my world, but I'm not opposed"? Why even have that second part on there, unless the writer was trying to weasel it to sound more pro-religious? It's clear whoever wrote these wants prayer to be considered the norm, but that doesn't mean you can word every choice to reflect that.
The atheists who have replied; they sound so angry and arrogant. Do atheists meet together to discuss what they don't believe in or is there any community among atheists? I suppose there are vast belief differences among atheists just as there are among Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Mormons, etc. When I was a teenager, I wasn't an atheist exactly, more of a skeptic with cynical tendancies. I was taught to think about things and make my own conclusions. Over time my thoughts drew me to ponder the Christian God. So I began asking questions and looking for answers. Long story short...I have chosen the Catholic faith to follow. The totality of my religious experiences culminated here. The Catholic faith that I studied has it all. I found portions of truth at different churches and in philosophical thinking. And I was very surprised to find absolute Truth in what the Catholic Church teaches and believes. Anyway, in my small circle of Catholic/Christian followers, I find that not everyone believes the same even though we all call ourselves "Catholic" or "Christians." What I do see is that their beliefs, or lack of intensity about their beliefs, influence how they live their lives. And part of that for me is being thankful, not just for food but for all things. Yes, as hard as it can be, all things. There are many hard concepts but being thankful is more for me than for God. I don't get points with God for being thankful, my position with Him or His love for me doesn't change or isn't influenced by my being thankful. It is an option I have; I choose to be thankful; it is good for me, to be thankful.
"The absolute truth" is an interesting phrase. Especially when you also point out that within your own "small circle" that "not everyone believes the same".
So if Catholicism holds the absolute truth, and you've "found" it, does that mean your friends are going to hell because they don't believe the same thing you do? Or is it most likely that you've taken pieces of the faith and arranged them so they fit what you already think?
The fact that so many people can read the same words and attend the same sermons and still practice the same religion in completely different ways suggests there's nothing "absolute" about the "truth" you've found.
What it comes down to is there is no reason other than fear to believe in any sort of god. I for one find the natural world we all live in to be fantastic on its own, and attributing the complex mechanisms that have made it what it is (and continue to do so) with man-made myths and the worshiping of a long-forgotten desert tribe's childish, jealous "god" a complete denigration of what mankind has been able to achieve to this point, and I refuse to be a part of that.
Hi Joel. I see what you mean. But just because we all believe differently within a Christian community doesn't mean that Absolute Truth doesn't exist.
I guess I should have said that studying about the Catholic faith helped to solidify my belief in Absolute Truth. That that is what I found there...and a very humble and beautiful way for me to worhip God. Truth is "what is true" and absolute means "perfect, ultimate, complete". I believe God "IS" truth.
The Catholic Church is where I find a complete, complex source where I can most fulfillingly worship God. This is just my choice, my experience. The whole service points to Christ and what He did on the cross for us.
And no just because we don't believe exactly the same way, doesn't mean someone is going to hell. The Catholic Church actually refrains from ever making that determination. That is God's decision. You might think "so-n-so" is going to hell but you don't really know. It's between you and God. Who knows what happens in the moments before a person dies and leaves their earthly existence?
Also, the natural world is fantastic and complex; I agree. I see the world as a gift from God who made us a beautiful place to live and as a way to remind us of his love for us. "You see that tree, that mountain, the blue sky, the evening sky, the stars, etc., I made it for you to enjoy because I love you." That's what I see.
If people are going to live by the bible, then they should be ok with the story about stoning the middle eastern woman who commit adultery to death, killing people who work on Sunday and should never wear mixed fabrics. It says it in the bible.
Marg are you talking about this story in the Christian Bible in "John chapter 8"? : When they kept on questioning Him, He straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there.Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
She didn't get stoned because of "Jesus". I think you are referring to some other religion not Christianity which is named after Jesus "Christ".
My food is going to nourish my body because I purchase food that meets my body's nutritional needs. My food is not going to poison or kill me because I wash and prepare it properly. I don't feel the need to thank god for the food because he didn't buy it for me, he didn't work to give me the money, he didn't study at school to get the degree that got me my job. I have managed to go without the pre-meal blessing of any invisible sky people for 28 years now without incident. Amazing really, when you think about all of the people I have influenced to walk away from the church that he would toss a poison carrot or something in there, but no, still doing just fine.
All I know is life has been so much better since I realized there is no god.
Quit the pissing contests about whose god is the real one and which way is the right way to pray to him/her/it. Go enjoy the one life you actually have instead of collecting points towards a fantasy that will never actually happen.
Joel, I'm glad you are enjoying the life you have now... but you are making a generalization about those who believe in G_d that I feel needs to be corrected. Not everyone who believes in G_d is doing so because of promises of reward in the afterlife. Jews like me, for example, are taught to believe that the afterlife is irrelevant – it is the life you are living NOW that matters, and you are to do everything you can to make the world a better place while living gently, peacefully and tolerantly.
People get screwed up when they start claiming their faith is the only "true" faith.
How very fitting that you should quote not from a 20th or 21st century atheist but from an 18th century American Girondin! Funny revolution...how it always eats its children. And this being true from the time before time in eternity with the 'non serviam' of Lucifer all the way down to this age with its touted liberalism and continued 'enlightenment'.
My statement of your 'a priori' opinion was not a compliment and neither is it archaic. But I sense yet another 'ad hominem' attack at work. While I am no expert Bruce, I do have a classically trained mind and will not fall prey to the typical straw arguments raised by many the atheist.
I will pray for your true enlightenment though you are someone I know no more than Adam. I wish you well and should you wish to continue this debate in email form, my address has been posted now twice in this comment string.
You're all idiots for praying to a god. You know who you SHOULD be praying to? The Ssun. God is a made up idea that leads to NOTHING good, but the Sun, gives us energy, life, food, EVERYTHING that we have. Those plants outside? Sun. That bible you're reading? Sun. The chickens, cattle, etc, all powered by the Sun. Stop believing in false idols an worship the thing that actually does make life.
It's embarrassing. You might as well wear an "I'm with stupid" t-shirt with an up-arrow on it. God doesn't exist, the afterlife doesn't exist, and praying to your lord and master won't get you anything but weird looks from the smart people.
As someone who believes in an "other side" but not particularly a "heaven/hell", I give thanks by treating life with respect. I feel that whenever I eat the meat of a cow, deer, pig, or otherwise, I have respect for it, and honor it by enjoying what is eaten. The same goes for respecting the earth and those who grew the corn, wheat and other items i'd enjoy. Where there is death for others to live, I also honor life by help nurturing it through volunteering at animal shelters and assisting a foster home group for animals. It may not seem like a fair trade off, but in terms of karma/good deeds/ honoring life, it's what I do. The mother earth we walk on has been around for millions of years and has provided more than most of us understand or acknowledge, and I believe that is what is important right now while i'm alive, giving thanks by repaying the favor to help other living entities live and grow.
If there's really a "God" that exists, or any higher being for that matter, i'd like to believe that it wants to see life flourish and prove it more so by helping others live,than giving thanks to it for my own life. I am alive and well, so I do things to help others live. I can't solve problems in 3rd-world countries and though I may not see where my occasional donations every couple months go overseas, I know I can help the horses, cats, dogs and other animals that can't speak for themselves. I think more people should show their honoring life and thanks for being well by helping others be well. I'm sure Wakan Tanka (my bloodline's version of a higher being/'God')/The Greatmother Earth/etc wants this.
This is a beautiful, thoughtful way to look at the issue, and I'm glad you've shared it here... it's a shame that we can't have more input from the non-Judeo/Christian point of view.
I've always believed that as long as we live judiciously, thoughtfully and with a grateful eye towards that which is greater than ourselves, we're on the right path to enlightened living.
Thank God, I"m a recovering catholic! So hypocritical, so focused on guilt, so focused on "You haven't given us enough money yet, I don't care what you say", and oh, yeah, so focused on little boys. Grateful that I was up in the choir with the nuns when young instead of behind the doors as an altar boy with the priests.
By the way, given the history of which there is only one, did or did not Karl Benz have something to do with the car I in fact now drive?
I don't drive a Mercedes but a Ford. And if not Karl Benz, did Henry Ford?
Why isn't "No" an option? Every response either implies that you do, you did or you refuse to. I take issue with the "refusal" response because it implies hostility. How about "No"?
JMKokenge,
You are trying to use the logical fallacy of Correlation and Causation to prove the existence of a god? Just because two events occur together does not mean that one caused the other, or because two variables have a connection does not automatically imply one causes the other.
Theology is not science, it is the study of religion, and by your use of the word, and based upon your earlier postings clearly is implied to christian theology only, and not that of other religions who believe or worship some type of deity (a theos)
There is no scientific proof for the existence of a god, as Christopher Hitchens said, “What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof,"
Creation is proof of a Creator. When people look at Creation and do not see it for what it is then they conclude there is no Creator.. That is their own fault. By taking that point of view they do not eliminate God's validity they do so in their own minds. Thus deceiving themselves away from God.
Dave,
If for arguments sake I agree with your statement above then the next decision needed to be made for myself is which god or gods in particular am I to believe created it all? Without meaning to be offensive, can I assume you are a Christian? Does your statement invalidate those who believe in other gods and who don’t necessarily believe as you do? No one can prove any particular god or gods actually exist; so even if there is a creator its defining nature is unknown to us.
I am an atheist only because I believe in one less god than you do.
Bruce, The God who created all things has a name. His name is Jehovah, means he causes to become. He also describes himself this way. I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be.. History reveals that this is God's name it is traced to be true in original Bible texts as the tetragramaton the Hebrew 4 letters which is also translated as YHWH, Yahweh. Many Bibles still have that name in it.. It exists some 7,000 times in the Bible. It's in dictionaries, encyclopedias, buildings, old churches, The even had it on the movie Raiders of the Lost Ark just to give an example..
Jehovah is the one and only true God. He theirfore is worshiped by only those who accept him as their God and those are the only ones that he accepts worship from. All other gods worshipped are false..
Bruce,
I have said nothing about the use of a fallacy. Did you pose that as a question to me? Since you brought up 'Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc' you must be a student of logic. That is truly great. You however are arguing ad hominem though when you quote Christopher Hitchens. How is his statement a proof except of Mr. Hitchens' own mind? (He is being prayed for as well while he battles esophageal cancer–poor man.)
Theology is a science. The definition of a thing always declares the essence and thus, theology is the study of God. To study anything and arrive at an idea, the process must pass the test of human reason. And human reason comes to its end via a process of not knowing to knowing, or being reduced from potency to act. Furthermore, the existence of God is most certainly able to be knows through causes–which points back to 'scientia'. What is the etymology of the word science?
How can God be studied–of course this is the mantra of the atheist. This is an opinion and opinions can not be the basis of truth. It is an a priori supposition that pollutes the process of reasoning. Argumentum ad verecundiam! An opinion does not an expert make.
You do rightly suggest that the Correlation and Causation argument is not a proof of the existence of God by calling into question its weakest aspect. (This is why Aquinas when using the Aristotelian method of arguing employed 5 proofs.) This is true. But that weakness does not discount its validity when coupled with other proofs. From reason alone we can come to the conclusion of the existence of God. You may refuse to believe the material aspect of these arguments logically (because they are found in a book which you a priori believe not to be inspired) but you can not refuse the veracity when examining them using formal logic.
1. The un-moved Mover
2. Causality proof
3. Contingency proof
4. Degrees of being
5. Proof by design
Please do not respond by quoting a 20th or 21st century atheist.
Very intersting, and you referred to me as a priori, how very archaic; morever, you asked that I not reply by quoting some 20th or 21st century atheist so I will comply with your wish.
"The study of theology, as it stands in Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on nothing; it proceeds by no authorities; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing and admits of no conclusion."
Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1793-5)
Some words of wisdom that are worth pondering by those in this string. They are from Gilbert Keith Chesterton.
"I believe what really happens in history is this: the old man is always wrong; and the young people are always wrong about what is wrong with him. The practical form it takes is this: that, while the old man may stand by some stupid custom, the young man always attacks it with some theory that turns out to be equally stupid." June 1922
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." April 1930
"Men invent new ideals because they dare not attempt old ideals. They look forward with enthusiasm, because they are afraid to look back." 1910
"One of the chief uses of religion is that it makes us remember our coming from darkness, the simple fact that we are created." January 1921
"There are those who hate Christianity and call their hatred an all-embracing love for all religions." January 1906
"A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it." 1925
That mans wisdom is foolishness because he imparts nothing beneficial just clever wordings than can be false under scutiny.. for example dead going with stream... living go against it.. it is true in physical way but figuratively speaking the stream can mean many things.. And going against it can apply to many things.. Even true religion can go against the broad and spacious form of belief.. So although he has some witty expressions they are not wisdom in themselves.
For those of you that want proof that God exists look around you. The proof is the evil world we see.. The Devil and demons that people do not want to believe exist are very real they are maneuvering events in this world to go Godless.. They have been behind every form of false belief there is. They have been around observing and corrupting mankind since it's beginning. The introduce vice and work to make it acceptable to the masses. They use technology to speed up the corruption process. Notice look around, bad is being made to look good. Perversion is made to look alternative or enlightened. Evil seems to grow every day, gov's are more evil today than ever, evil medias cover for them. Mainstream religions molested by the thousands and still stand as "representatives of God" but they are not. Proof of God you say look around, I say.. Good is not appreciated anymore, the lie is it's substitution. Only a evil force opposed to God can maneuver all this on a global scale.. Notice it is working to unite the world politically why do you suppose this is? This evil force has plans for all of you and it will not be pretty.. If you want the answer as to what is coming it only comes from God and his Bible.. But you mustn't hate him.. He is your only hope..
"Don't you know there ain't no devil, it's just god when he's drunk" - tom waits
If you want to find evil, look no further than your own holy book. There are passages of murder, slavery, rape and other heinous crimes all dictated and directed by your all-holy, benevolent god.
If you want a contemporary example, look at the suffering in the world. If there's a god and he's all-powerful and benevolent, why doesn't he stop it? Does he choose not to? Well, if that's the case, then I hastily choose not to follow him.
Blynn, God is guilty of nothing. What he does is right. He has every right to end the lives of wicked people. He made them he can remove them. Just as he did with the Flood. No one is in the right to accuse him. Satan means slanderer. He has slandered God right from the start of humanity accusing God of withholding from humanity.. Well Satan proved to be the liar because of him we die. Satan who influeneces rebellion towards God is responsible for those who die as a result of God's judgments. See you are missing the true guilty one.
Praying before meals? I did a lot of that. As a young Christian, I wondered why we were thanking an outside disinterested party for the hard work that farmers ranchers truckers and my parents did. Seemed dishonest. Glad I'm Atheist now. Credit where credit is due. Honesty is the ONLY policy.
I see God's hand at work in my life and he does answer my prayers. If I prayed, and nothing ever happened, I wouldn't believe in it. But things do happen, and God shows me all the time that he's real and that he loves me. I wish you could know what I'm talking about.
Erica...that is perfectly flawed logic.
Would it make better sense–at least logically if you were grateful to Karl Benz for the car you drive now? Even though he did not make the one you and your family currently drive nor did he pay for it or the garage you may park it in?
Are you not grateful to Karl Benz? If you answer no, then you have a poor knowledge of history or you do not understand the notion of causality well. If you answer yes to being grateful for Karl Benz, then why would you deem God–a much great benefactor to your existence a myth?
Because it is a myth, one of many perpetrated upon mankind by those too ignorant to understand the true nature of the universe, yet it is certainly understandable why a person from that age of man would and could believe in such things. What is not understandable is why a person from this age would continue to believe in such nonsense when science and our understanding of the universe clearly demonstrate the opposite.
What in science exactly in the 20th-21st centuries demonstrates the opposite in relation to the notion of causality as a PROOF of the existence of God? I am quite versed in science and I have yet to find a contradiction between the two. It is also interesting that the definition of science itself implies a progression of causation.
science – the knowledge of things through causes
Theology by definition is also then a science. Maybe this is the fact which you simply refuse. If this is then that is entirely different from stating that religion has nothing to do with science.
I appreciate the calm tone of your response, but what you are talking about is faith, and to have faith means making a virtue out of not thinking. I think you have it backwards, those who have a certain disposition or attitude are drawn to religions and gods, and those who preach faith in an unknowing god actually enable and elevate it, in a sense become or are intellectual slave holders.
Neither you nor anyone else posting here possesses any direct or positive knowledge or powers that I myself don’t possess, so your claims as to understand god’s ways are unfounded.
A bit of advice, you can take it or leave it, it’s all about reason and logic, either go on believing in gods for which there is no evidence for, or open your eyes and see the world as it really is.
Bruce you make a good point but you have to admit it does fall apart if the one true God does exist. I believe God does exist and so do the angels and the fallen angels (demons). The demons have been convincing mankind to worship all kinds of falsehoods all through history.There is a danger in worshipping other gods and the people that have made that same mistake have paid the consequences not necessarily by God but because of the crazy behavior they are deluded into thinking is correct. You seem like a good person. I hope that you might change your mind about God someday.
Every piece of life is only evidence of god if you believe in god. If not, every piece of life is evidence of the laws of biology. Where's the evidence in a higher power that doesn't require blind faith in order to be considered evidence at all?
Kayde, Everything in life emits some form of uniqueness which revals intelligence and wisdom that only could have been imparted by someone of greater intelligence. There is no way such intelligent creation could have come about by itself.. Nothing of humanities inventions come about without thought and efforts, you no doubt will agree with this. How does that law and cause and effect not apply all other creations in the universe? It most certainly does apply.. Regardless of what we want believe...
"There is no way such intelligent creation could have come about by itself."
Again, though, you're just offering up your beliefs as "proof." I'm sure it sounds great if you believe in god to begin with, but it's not empirical evidence.
I actively refuse. I say thank you to those that prepared and made it possible to eat as a family, but we do not attribute our hard work and dedicate to some 2,000 year old bronze age mythology.
I don't pray because there is no god. I do thank myself because I worked hard to get the money to buy the food and made it myself. Put the thanks where it's deserved: on the people who made it possible.
There will always be people who thank God for what they receive. Even if the world degrades into complete rebellion against God. He will always have those who appreciate Him and will reward them with this earth the others will be let go to fall to their own ways and system which is soon to end.
If anyone is interested in continuing a discussion–even those who would deem me a fool or duped, please e-mail me at jkokenge@prodigy.net.
What have you to lose? You just might gain some knowledge about your own existence, that of your fellow man, and the church God established for all people regardless of their former lives, creed, or complete lack of belief in Him or His Church.
You just might be able to gain some participation and share in the promise he gave...John 5,24 "Amen, amen I say unto you, that he who heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath life everlasting; and cometh not into judgment, but is passed from death to life."
Much of this petty debate really doesn't matter at all.
Catholic, Protestant, Non-Denominational, or any other sect or religion (Muslim, Jew, Hindu...), and you pray before your meals, good for you. If you find some peace, solace, or feeling of thankfulness, that's great. It doesn't matter the words you say, whether they are original or not. If good things come from your prayer, power to you.
If you're like me and not as religious, there's nothing wrong with not praying either. If you can find that same peace, solace, and thankfulness without speaking to God/his messenger, hey, that's great too.
What I'm saying is really simple, and I hope people catch on to it. If you're religious and it leads to good things, power to you, but I will have little tolerance for extremism and claims that your faith or practice is superior to mine.
At the same time, if you're atheist, agnostic, etc, and you're a good person who acts with kindness and respect to others, you'll have my support. If you go around blindly calling people stupid sheep, I will have little tolerance for you either.
It's called acceptance, people. If you agree with me, post below.
At least it seems at around 4:08 eastern time, 67% of the people polled believe in God. They may not pray before every meal but at least they still believe!
My family says grace before every meal. I live my life in constant prayer to God. It's vital to a personal relationship with him. I do not judge anyone who has an opposing belief than mine. In fact, if you want the mention of God taken off of the money, fine. Take it off. It will not diminish who He is. He is the name above all names. Remove His name from anything you'd like to. He's still God. Creator of all. I wonder if you've realized that it take more faith to be an atheist. If we, the Christians, are wrong at the end of our lives, we're not out anything. If, however, atheists are wrong, your non-belief has cost you everything.
For the benefit of those in this now lengthy string that balk at the notion of the Catholic Church standing in judgement concerning religion, please refer to Matthew 18, 16-18.
In fact, this is also intended for those of you who wrongly discredit the entire Catholic Church because of the sins of its now thoroughly post-modern clergy...read the entire chapter 18 of St. Matthew's gospel. Jesus Christ himself promised to his own disciples a horrible punishment for scandal–and the sins of the past 40 years are most definitely a scandal.
In this one chapter, these 3 hefty ideas are spoken of by Jesus Christ; scandal, judgement, forgiveness, reparation...
No one should be the slightest bit surprised that clergy have committed sins. We are all capable of it. Nearly 20% of the Apostles Jesus Christ personally chose denied him!
Matthew 18
[16] And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. [17] And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. [18] Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.
I think you need to read revelation 17 &18 there it depicts the eventuality of all false religion describing it as a Harlot riding of the back of the wild beast (world political leaders) It talks about the judgment that will soon come about from God through the united power of world government. You should read it and when you do you will see who fits into this category of the Harlot it will be quite obvious..
Jesus the Christ said and I quote, "IAM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE. NOONE CAN GO TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME."Also He said and I quote, "IAM THE VINE AND YOU ARE THE BRANCHES." SOY EL CAMINO, LA VIDA Y LA VERDAD." Without Jesus we are lost, living in falsehood and lies of the world and we are zombies, the living dead.I am inviting everyone with open hearts and minds and pure purpose to invite Jesus into your lives and make Him be your God becasue I want everyone here to experience what I experiences. The pure joy and peace. Happiness and peace that the world cant give that He alone is capable of giving. Everlasting peace and joy that no amtter what happen around you .
Ligaya, You are correct in that Jesus is the way and means of salvation. But he is not God. The father is Greater than I am Jesus said. Also at the end of the 1,000 years reign Jesus will hand perfected mankind back to his Father. Jesus will have served his Father in a Great way in saving mankind from sin and imperfection.. If you are going to quote the Bible use it in all it's context..
I think it should be worked do you give thanks for your food. Saying grace what does that really mean? It sounds like a ceremony.. It is about being thankful and thanking God for what we have at the moment. Saying Grace is a wordy way of implying something totally different. Jesus did not say grace he gave thanks..
We have a creator and sustainer, and he likes to be thanked for His favors upon us. If you give thanks, He will surely grant us more. In Thy name, O Lord!
to scott and the others who don't know a thing about the bible thanks to their parents. Jesus prayed to his father in heaven for they are a trinity 3 persons in one . who's the idiot. and everyone better straighten up an fly right as the end is near believe it or not read the bible . of course it was written by man the ones who followe Christ wrote it according to Him.. man most people are plain idiots. i hope some of you wake up and be a littl realistic and maybe you will get it instead of looking only at you view point check it out . lots of love to you all , even tho
Rita why are promoting a trinity that is not in the Bible.. No where in the Bible did Jesus claim he was God or a part of God. They are separate individuals.. The head of the woman is the man, the head of the man is Christ, the head of the Christ is God.... You are teaching an incorrect view of Jesus Christ..
We’re the idiots? You’re the one who believes in this trinity thing, and yet some of us need to wake up and be a little realistic?
Your basic belief is in a supreme being that can do anything (but does nothing), knows everything (but says nothing), that is present everywhere (but conveniently invisible).
Nothing can ever be proved to have been achieved through prayer. Quite to the contrary, things get done when people ignore religion and start thinking for themselves, and roll up their sleeves and get busy.
Bruce I do understand your sentiments. But I must say faith is not the possession of all people. That means some will never be able to understand the ways of God. God actually keeps himself hidden for a reason. But it is up to us to seek him. He does not keep himself hidden from all, he stays away from the proud and haughty ones. Yet reveals who he is to the lowly and meek. The wisdom of this world is foolishness to him. The nations are as a drop in a bucket to God.
It can be quite frustrating to those who don't understand.. But I will say something as advice.. You can take it or leave it.. It's all about attitude.. God is drawn to those with the right disposition/attitude.. To them he is real as real as you and I.
Dave, what frustrates those of us who are agnostic or atheistic is that people like you don't understand that we truly have no desire to be like you. Way too many religious people behave with an "Oh, honey, if you just knew what I know..." attitude. It's patronizing and incorrect.
I really see no point in giving thanks (Saying grace before a meal), just as the idea of prayer asking god(s) to nullify the laws of the universe on behalf of a single petitioner is equally ridiculous, i.e. praying for the oil leak in the Gulf of Mexico to stop, or to heal the sick, etc…
My family uses the standard issue Catholic prayer, but we add on our own comments whenever we're moved to. For me, the use of the same prayer that I said with my family growing up, and that my parents used, and my grandparents, connects me to the past. It's not a "rule"...it's a tradition that makes me feel connected to my past, and it reminds me of my obligation to be a good example to the next generation...my kids. Of course, we also have a long tradition of an adult saying, "It's time to say grace," which prompts one of the kids to yell, "Grace! Okay...let's eat." Come on...God must laugh at the funny prayers, right?
Before each meal,I sit and take a few moments to feel the creator entering me in each breath and leaving, and comming again with the next breath.There is no right or wrong , there is no book, but there is that Joy and Peace, Jesus,and all the other great Masters spoke of.Know that Peace and it will set you Free!
So even though the Catholic church was started hundreds of years after Jesus and the church of the Bible, they are still the only true church. Sounds like you need to wake up a do a little history study.
It makes me uncomfortable when I am at some big family gathering-type event and everyone joins hands around a circle because they just ASSUME everyone in the group thinks and believes the way they do. People need to open their minds about the possiblity that not everyone believes the world was created in 6 days.
Seriously? How do you take a simple lunch time poll and turn it into this? People of all religions need to grow up, and realize that you are never going to live in a world where everyone believes exactly what you do, and what 99.9% of all religions teach is love and tolerance. And, I implore all Catholics like Valerie to just shut your mouth, because you force the rest of us to have to defend ourselves and our church against the ignorance the falls out of your mouth like word-vomit.
“Everybody prays whether [you think] of it as praying or not. The odd silence you fall into when something very beautiful is happening or something very good or very bad. The ah-h-h-h! that sometimes floats up out of you as out of a Fourth of July crowd when the sky-rocket bursts over the water. The stammer of pain at somebody else s pain. The stammer of joy at somebody else's joy. Whatever words or sounds you use for sighing with over your own life. These are all prayers in their way."–Frederick Buechner
Aren't you atheists thankful that you were born in a country that has unlimited access to food? Rather than having to cross the Serengeti in hopes of killing something to feed your children that day?
you think those people are thankful to god that they have to cross a desert to get to their food??? i'm just fortunate my ancestors were smart enough to leave whatever place they were in in hopes of finding a better life somewhere. my family location has evolved just like each and every one of you have evolved in the past 15 billion years since the universe was created in the big bang – look it up, it's a fact: the big bang happened (3 kelvin background radiation – penzias and wilson won a nobel prize for their research).
Whenever family members pray before meals I just sit there and wait. Its kind of annoying how they want to make us all wait and let the food start to get called for some pointless saying but w/e. I understand that religions are made up as a way to help people who can't take the fact that we don't know the answers to certain questions. Personally, curiosity has not killed me and I wish Religious antics like prayer could be personal and not used in public situations.
Yes Jesus prayed to His Father. The reason Jesus came to earth 2010 years ago and took human flesh is not only to reveal the real God and Himself as one in being with the father but to teach us through His words and examples. he prayed to teach us that we too should pray. He showed He is the God-Man who existed before the universe through His miracles. Not everything is written in the Bble as the Protestants claimed. Its in the last chapter last verse of John that not everything is written in the Bible. Catholics also have the Divine Oral Tradition that were preserved through the ages.
you have truly been brainwashed. pls provide one ounce of proof for anything you have written here – you can't. you might as well start praying to an imaginary teapot that grants magical wishes. good luck!
The evidence is everywhere and all around you. You only need to open your mind, heart and soul to find the evidences. Take a journey to find Him. He said, Seek and you hall find, ask and it shall be given unto you .Knock and it shall be opened to you. Our hearts have doors and locks. The knobs are inside the heart. You are the only one who can open it and Incite Jesus into your heart. He is just waiting for you to open it an dlet Him in. Good luck in your journey. Hope you find what you are looking for. Peace my borhter.
ligaya – are you serious? do you have a brain? can you pls type something original and not just regurgitate what your parents and some guy who is molesting your kids has beat into your brain every sunday while you fork over 10% of your income so he can make his car payment?
There is no so thing as "Christian-light." Either you believe everything the guy supposedly said (in both testaments)–no matter how homophobic, vengeful, xenophobic, petty or factually inaccurate–or nothing at all. I'm sick of reasonable, intelligent people justifying beliefs they know to be logically irrational and inconsistent with their own sense of morality by saying, "well, the bible was actually written by man and was purposefully left open to interpretation."
Do you really think an all powerful, all knowing, all loving God would go through the trouble of drafting a couple of books and then let the scriveners he dictated it to screw a couple of the parts up?
If you don't believe that God would turn an entire city to salt b/c some of the folks engaged there engaged in sodomy, then you don't believe it Christianity.
Actually, there is nothing wrong with a Christian admitting, "I don't understand everything in the Bible." I just do the best I can, like everyone else, but I am a Christian.
Well said. My favorite is when they say "well, Genesis was written to say it all started with a talking snake because the people were simple and wouldn't have understood the truth." Odd, that they only started to say that AFTER Darwin. Before that, it was literal.
What people choose to do before they eat food is their business, and the other atheists here bashing religion should keep that in mind. People have the right to believe in whatever they want to believe, and berating them because you think their beliefs are silly puts you on the same level as religious fundamentalists who believe you're going to hell because you don't belong to the right denomination, let alone the right religion.
Very, very good point – thank you. I am personally an atheist (emphasis on personally here), but because I live in a society with other people in it (as everyone else does), I respect those with different beliefs. Just because I don't believe what you believe doesn't mean I can't respect your right to it. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
I'm sorry, I don't respect them. If it is ok for their religion to judge me, then it's ok for me to believe that they are delusional twits who believe in something that is no more real than Goldilocks.
The results of the vote are pretty encouraging. Almost 25% actively oppose praying or never think about it! These are great numbers and they are growing. Even ten years ago, the number of superstitious people out there would have been higher. To all the atheists on here, keep up the good work, we have seen some REAL progress in these last few years.
It is discouraging how many people voted "Always". In the year 2010 – centuries removed from scientific ignorance – people still believe in a supernatural being. Defies logic, I tell ya.
Santa, easter bunny, god...whatever you believe in, they didn't grow the food, buy the food, cook the food or serve the food. Why in the hell would I mumble magic words to myself for my food?
Is it so problematic to be thankful, even when you're not sure whom to thank? I'm sure that there's value to a little humility and recognition that we're not the highest power in the universe, not to mention gratitude that with all of the hungry people in the world, you are not among them.
So, the theory goes that you think silent thoguhts and an invisible sky-god reads your mind and is grateful that you thought of it. It simultaneously reads the minds of the millions of people who happen to be praying at any given time and records it all for later determining who gets to live happily ever after their deaths.
I think I'll skip that ritual, it seems a little simplistic and childish to me.
I do pray, but to an imaginary teapot that grants magical wishes and when I die it gives me all the stuff I was too lazy too lazy to work for while I was alive. I can't wait to have my mansion in the sky w/ streets that are paved w/ gold!!! What a waste of time. Religion is the biggest hoax in history and has killed way more people than it has "saved" and you can't prove any of it – faith is all you need. I'll sell you a broken down car for way more than it's worth, but you can't test drive beforehand – just have faith that it works. Keep wasting your time in church and praying before meals and maybe just maybe all your hopes and dreams will come true. Meanwhile, I'll just go out and work hard and be a good person w/out throwing 10% of my income at a "pastor" driving a Bentley while he molests my kids behind my back, but don't worry b/c I'll forgive him b/c it's what jesus would do.
I find it funny and a little pathetic how so many people can believe so passionately in this mythological BS. A teapot isn’t any more farfetched than any of the other organized religions out there.
RD wrote, "...you will be the first to be praying when you find yourself in need of a miracle to live..."
I have never found myself in need of prayer or a miracle. Neither in the Emergemncy Room when on the verge to death, nor on the battle field with gunfire and moartar fire going off all around me. Rather than waste my time praying, I will concentrate my time and energy into trying to do soemthing about the situation.
People who insist that atheists will repent at the last minute simply don't get it. "Repenting" would be impossible, in that we simply do not believe there is anything to repent to. Asking forgiveness from a god at death would be as silly to us as asking santa clause for one last gift.
God is fake in my eyes. I absolutely refuse to pray. I don't even bow my head out of respect. You wouldn't pray for Satan if you didn't agree, right?
My prayer at holidays is this, when my family asks me:
"Dear Safeway, thank you for providing this delicious turkey and these yummy mashed potatos...and thank you to all the people who worked hard to get them to the stores, amen!"
Michael, first of all, I was not directing my comment towards you. Second, I didn't say prayer is all you need. Of course, in some situations you need to act & make something happen but I can assure you when you are in the ICU or ER with a tube down your throat, you better pray that we (medical personnel) know what we are doing or else! Sometimes, prayer is all you have and you better use it!
I think it is embarrassing to hear Christains bicker over things like this. Which one of you know everything? You are boasting of your own righteousness; get over yourselves.
I think this sums it up: 'In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.'
Prayer is not about men and their mistakes, or their religious systems. Prayer is about God. Life is about God. I am sorrowful for those of you with such anger to God because of the actions of men. Don't look to men to prove God right or wrong. Those with unbelief expect Christians to be 'little models' and we are not. There is only One model. The rest of us are just sinners.
Amen! And I don't like how some people equate "sin" with "burning in hell forever." To me, sin is just, like, when I screw up. We all do. To think that one person's sin is less than another is delusional.
I know it looks bad that "christians" bicker.. the problem is there is only one christianity all the others are imposters imitation. True Christianity has to contend with it. But when it does it must be respectful regardless. All the others fight..
...cook for himself? I mean, prayer really, absolutely, will not work. Cooking for himself will. It'll be a lot healthier, too - and cheaper!! I even find it entertaining to cook myself a really good meal, so I don't really consider it wasted time, either. I'll eat an easy ramen or chef boyardee can of ravioli/soup/whatev every once in awhile, but cooking is realistic, achievable action that would do infintely more than the apparently "limitless" power of prayer.
I am not understanding all the remarks but I will say that each person is entitled to his or her own opinion. In saying that, I am a christian and minister and one thing that I have learned from God is that I have no power to change their way of thinking. So those of you who are arguing back and forth trying to get someone to undestand your point, it is senseless. If you believe in God or not is entirely up to you but do not try to force your beliefs on anyone else. Jesus taught the people with love and compassion and never argued His point. He delivered the message and left the reading up to the person. So read the message as you will but I love you and God does too, no matter whether you pray before meals or not. "I'd rather live like there is a God and find that to be false than to live like there is no God and realize there is."
@GC1: well said, thank you. I'm all for a spirited debate, but I must say I'm disheartened by the amount of folks who use these forums to behave & speak in ways they would never do in person (hopefully). Let & let live – and be nice about it, dammit! ;-)
You know, the reason I don't say my views in person is because I'm terrified at the prospect of being shouted at by some offended nearby Christian. As much of the "victim complex" as Christians seem to exhibit (e.g. a "War on Christmas" - are you serious?? really?), you're still 85% of the population, and I've yet to be visited by atheist old ladies at 8:00 AM on Sunday, thank you very much (for waking me up from my evening of what would Christian-ly be described as "sin and debauchery").
...
Otherwise I'd be glad to openly state my disbelief in god in public...
Many question about GOD providing for those that don't know him, that only know him with their month only and provide for those that mock him. Jesus told the religious leaders they didn't know him. He also said if you love him you will keep his commandments. He also called for the destruction of peoples and even allowed the destruction of those that said he was their GOD because of their sins. He also said that in the last day the people would be wicked and he will destroy them. He is love for those that know him and keep his commandments but he is also a punishing GOD and a GOD of war to them that don't know him and do not keep his commandments.
..and if you had been raised a Hindu, you would believce something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT! Most humans are atheists about the VAST majority of Gods humanity has ever believed in. (And the vast majority of "their teachings"!) Those who don't believe in YOUR Christian/Jewish God have simply gone one god further...
Please, stop BELIEVING and start observing the world through a human lense, NOT a christian one, and actually THINK.
@JS Dude, we can't even prove Einstein's theories, and that's pure math and physics! There is something more out there and you know it. Intuition. Empathy. Conscience. That is what guides us, whatever name we give it.
Yeah we can, the last 50+ years of physics are based on them. The nuclear bomb was based on theories of Einstein and others, and we have thousands of them.
@ Matt: Complete baloney. No specifics - just as religion never fails to fail to provide.
@ Adrienne: Wrong on all counts, sir. Have you ever calculated the force of a cannon based entirely on the distance that a ball of known weight travels after it is launched out? F=ma, a magical equation that works every time. The same is true of E=mc^2, it HAS been proven on countless occasions. How much time have you spent giving science a chance at explaining the universe? Have you looked only at science's claims? They don't attempt to hide anything - usually you can perform some of these experiments AT HOME to arrive at the same conclusions. They literally write extremely detailed, specific papers on how to build the experimental setup, how to measure, etc - you can test this yourself.
Or, you can simply read scientific texts. In any case, the entire tome of science is available at your fingertips, at the whim of a few clicks and keystrokes on the internet. Science doesn't know everything - nor does it purport to. But it's trying - it's trying via observation of what we can empirically observe, real things, things like rocks, cliffs, air, etc. God is not one of those things.
I have two beautiful, intelligent, kind, caring children who I love very much. I was in the delivery room and witnessed both of thier births. They, as my wife and I are also athiest. We are all smart enough to know that some bearded robe toting boogeyman in the sky had nothing to do with it. I had sex with my wife. My sperm fertilized her egg. Presto, two children later we have a family. God did not creat jack squat. My wife and I did. I don't need any oudated regious dogma to guide me through life. My mother taught me most of what I need to know and I figured out the rest on my own.
I treat my fellow man better, and have done more for the less fortunate, than just about any religious person I know. All without the help or belief in some farsical super hero from outer space.
Collin; There is only the truth. There is only one truth. If there are many truths then that is not the truth. The problem in this age is relativism and individualism.
Anyway, the Bible says, "There is no God, says the fools"
I think most women and men pray alot but very private, some everyday you never know what is in a person heart. You don't need lunch or at a church to pray. Most true prayer are very private
two young children was staying a few days with thier uncle in the backwoods, at dinner time the uncle cooked the dinner an set the table and they sat down to eat, the uncle over loaded his plate and started shoveling food in and the two small children said uncle we say something before we eat, and the uncle stopped for a minute and said , go ahead kids say anything you want , you can not hurt my stomach,
The comments highlight the schism that still exists between Catholic and Protestant, even though so many Americans are not conscious of it. A Protestant can't say "Your Catholic rules are legalistic and unnecessary" because they are necessary if you're Catholic. And a Catholic can't say "Your informal Protestant prayers are missing the mark" because that's the way Prods interpret the Bible. Religion is lame.
Pray in private and mean what you pray! Public displays of prayer are usually for the benefit of those around watching not to God.
Don't pray or thank God for material things or even food. Pray for the spiritual strength to be a good human being and to help your brothers and sisters here on earth.
God does not bless us with material things. We gain these through social conformity and hard work. To think that God blesses us with material things implies that those who have nothing are undeserving and somehow evil.
Brian, Very good comment, you are a true believer. The world today is full of want to be's. Thanks for your comment and may God bless you. I pray every day to let me help by fellow man in some way
I work in ICU and ER, I see prayers being answered every day!! Chris D & Guy, you will be the first to be praying when you find yourself in need of a miracle to live & you know what, GOD will answer your prayer!!
@RD: no disrespect, but I'm afraid you're wrong on that one (at least about me). I've been in plenty of sticky situations, up to and including those where my life was on the line, and have never – not once – resorted to praying.
what about 9/11 and those people that were praying on those airplanes, praying in those burning buildings, praying for their families that were on those planes and in those burning buildings??? where was god when all that was going on? what about the crusades and inquisition when a countless number of people were being killed? do you think they were praying and their families were praying for them? what about the catholic priests and all lthe children they molested? do you think those kids were praying for it to stop and did that work? god's will???? why did even one child have to be molested for it to be god's will? it didn't really seem to work out too well for any of them. the truth is that this is all some fantasy many people have created just to get them through the day and it has turned into ritualistic and cult-like behavior.
IT- How do you know all those people were praying, maybe they weren't praying, so you have no validity to your comment, that was a shallow remark. Do u know how many were praying?? I willing to bet you don't. By reading this blog, there are alot you who do not pray. People pray to GOD for different things.
I always pray and I try to focus on the words and if I don't get the focus I repeat the prayer over and over until I do get focus – then I thank God for his blessings because all of us owe everything we are and all that we could be to God – blessed be God forever -Jesus Mary and Joseph save Souls
Tony, you can complain. God takes all prayers and when you pray through Christ Jesus; Thank Him for your burden, for it is then that you know that He truly loves you and wants you to ask Him to take that burden.
Guy I hate to say it but this world has you completely blinded. Don't you realize that without the fundemental values expressed in Jewish and Christian faiths we would utterly destroy our world in a very short period of time. Without the basic rules God gave us in the Ten Commandments we would not have a measure of what is wrong and right. If you want to see this you can look it up in any Christian Bible. Especially read the last part of this verse.
Romans Chapter 5 Verses 12 and 13. "12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
And Guy in case you don't know what sin is, here is a definition from Webster's Dictionary. 2 a : transgression of the law of God b : a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God.
Chris, that's a pretty good try. However, that portion is talking about how Christ died for our sins. Not about lawlessness. The best way to teach Guy, or anyone is Christ's answer to anothers rebuke "As I have loved you, so must you Love one another, even if he should slap you, turn thy cheek and offer the other".
Hi Bob. Thanks for the comment! Your point is understood but the point I was trying to make was that in this verse Paul is saying that if we didn't have the law then how would we know that we were sinning in the first place. There would be no measure for unrighteous behavior. Although, Christ paid the price for evryone's sin. I just hope many of these guys wake up and accept the gift.
Chris, you sadly misguided and brainwashed fool. There are atheists ALL AROUND YOU. Interestingly, they are not "utterly destroying our world" because they don't blindly follow your precious 10 Commandments. Indeed, they make up disproportionaly less crimals than "christians" do. Check out the prison statistics of ANY state! Look at the bloody mess in the middle east, or the farcical Blackwater CEO! Perhaps it's because atheists think for themselves and don't blindly follow what ever their leaders interpretation of the bible tells them to... It is people like you who will joyfully be singing whilst you drag the rest of us into your mire of intolerance and ignorance. Please go back to the 12th century where your ideas might actually make sense...
Hope you have knee pads ready!!!
Romans 14:11
11 It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "
You can be ethical and not subscribe to Judeo Christian beliefs.
In my view we are all human beings. This is the only life we have. I am responsible for my own actions.
I have no right to harm another human being, who is equal to me in every way. I am no better than anybody else. I try to be a good person because it makes me happy to make the lives of my fellow man better, not because I believe I will be rewarded in the afterlife. If I do wrong and hurt somebody, I need to swallow my pride and apologize to that person, and I need to do everything within my power to make it right. If I cannot make it right, I need to accept that my actions were wrong, accept the consequences and learn never to do that action again.
My rather longwinded point is this:
If you have your beliefs, they are not hurting anybody and they make you happy, keep your beliefs. However, understand that every human being lives a unique life and their perspective is colored by their individual experiances. You are not better than anybody else for your beliefs and nobody is better than you. We need to start focusing on what we all have in common and stop nitpicking every little thing that divides us.
Perfectly said, thank you. Your comment should really be the end of this debate, as it leaves room for everyone to just do their thing, as it should be.
you have incredible writing skills! And I agree 100% with everything you said. I do not follow any one particular religion, but I do believe in God. I make it a point to be thankful for everything that I have been given.
I know way too many so called "religious" people who pray everyday, but are not clean on the inside. They are unethical, evil, etc. What is the point of being a "religious" person if that is what you are going to do after your 2 minutes of prayer or however long worship, etc.
And like you said, we are all connected, but it is these religious labels, race, etc. that disconnects from the very essence of what is humanity.
YOU SAID: You can be ethical and not subscribe to Judeo Christian beliefs.
I liked what you said (in part) ... but it is a post-modernist view. You are to do good to, and for others; you should forgive, and also ask for forgiveness when you wrong someone. But to say you can be ethical, and 'not subscribe' to Judeo Christian beliefs, is WRONG; Let me explain:
See, you must have a 'basis' for your 'so-called' goodness ... it is either based on a standard for goodness, as defined by other fellow human beings; or, it is based only on God's Holy Standards, and 'not' mankinds standards. If you are good based on mankinds standards, you WILL miss the mark set by God the Father, through His Son Jesus (who is the very basis for all Judeo CHRISTian beliefs); and missing 'that' mark, will leave you separated from God the Father, who has already set 'The Standard' to follow ... and that is the 'whole' of Judeo CHRISTian beliefs.
Judeo CHRISTian beliefs are based on, and rooted in, Jesus as the Christ, as the Son of the Living God, the ONLY Savior of the world; as God Himself. If that escapes any man (or woman), they will end up separated from the God of Heaven. So, if people want to say, "There are 'OTHER WAYS' to Heaven, they are ansolutely WRONG." Jesus IS the ONLY WAY to God's Heaven.
If a person wants to remain in 'rebellion' to what God the Father has already instituted, via Jesus; then, they are denying what the Father has stated; and thus, upon your death, you will be asked only two questions: "What did you do with the knowledge I gave to ALL humanity (via My Holy Spirit dictated to man, Bible) about My Son, Jesus; and, did you obey what I, the Father, made known to you about Him?
If your answer is not based on that, I guarantee you, that (based) on the word of God, you WILL BE excorted off the premises immediately.
There is No Other Way but Jesus; and, there is no goodness, unless it's based 'on' Jesus; and there is no other belief in Jesus, other than 'through' Judeo Christian beliefs. Christianity owes it's knowledge of God to the Jews (Jesus was a Jew); thus, since Jesus is the CHRIST (the Messiah) ... then, Judeo Christian beliefs are not only 'above' all 'other' beliefs ... they are your ONLY way to the very Heaven everyone [thinks] they are [all] going to go to, regardless of what they [chose] to believe here on earth ... that's simply NOT TRUE. ONE God, ONE Way, ONE Heaven ... and since Jesus IS GOD (He said so); then, it's HIS Heaven, and HIS Way as well.
I do not fear eternal separation from something I do not believe exists.
I merely wish to live my life, make the world a little brighter for my fellow human beings and leave it a little better for the genarations that come after me.
It is my belief that I will end when my body fails me. I have accepted this fate.
If those are your beliefs and they make you happy, keep them. However you have no right to tell me that I am wrong.
I hope you live to see many happy and fruitful days during your time on this planet.
Dude, that book was written by human beings over the course of hundreds of years in a totally different language. It was then kept from the people, written in a language that only the upper class and clergy knew how to speak. It also began in a time when we didn't know the first thing about the world around us.
I'm sorry you think that my atheism leads to an unfulfilling, unhappy life that's doomed to work to bring down the rest of society... but if you think that, you're sorely mistaken. I will be good to my fellow human beings because I, a fellow human being to my fellow human beings, would not like my fellow human beings doing evil to me. Thus, as I am aware that my fellow human beings are having a similar sober perspective on the world at large as I do, I would not do them harm.
They would feel pain as I would feel pain.
Their loved ones would feel pain as my loved ones would feel pain.
Thus, I will not murder. I will not steal. I will not hurt, harm or maim. Why? Because you're a human being, and I sympathize with the quantifiably negative impact on your life that these actions have against you. That's all I need to act in a good-hearted way.
But that's cool, judge me because Glenn Beck has interpreted history for you to suggest that it has been the proponents of non-belief that have caused social collapse and wanton destruction.
No grace before meals. My partner and I are atheists.
I will sit quietly if other people are saying grace, but I will not bow my head, hold hands or participate in any way. I will not start eating until others at the table start eating, not out of respect for the prayer, but because it is simply good manners to do so.
Unfortunately you are missing life's best gift. Do you really think that your years on Earth is all that there is? If it was, then this life would be totally pointless.
Really Matt? Pointless? Your life is pointless, the relationships you forge, what you accomplish? Your KIDS are pointless? I'm am an atheist, and the point is pretty simple: enjoy the time you have. The idea that life is pointless without a deity to believe, that is actually kind of a horrible thing to thjink.
I could argue that you are missing a great gift. I understand the gravity of every moment that passes. Every moment of my life is precious and filled with wonder. One of the reasons it is so precious to me is because I know one day it will end.
How you choose to live your life is your choice. Just promise me that you will smile, know joy and live in wonder. Peace.
I see no need to talk to imaginary friends, be it to give thanks for food or any other reason. I work hard to earn the money to buy my food, I don't have to thank a mythological sky daddy for it.
It sounds like a lot of folks can't agree about how to pray, who to pray to and which religion is best. Let's settle it by having a religious war! Most wars start this way and that's why I say no to all organized religions. Lets keep God personal, people.
Why would you thank god for something you did yourself? "god" doesn't provide for me, I provide for me, and my family. I guess if god is picking up the check I would thank him, but that hasn't happened yet.
I see praying before the meal is a way to say thank you to God at least 3 times a day when we should be thanking him ALL DAY... prayer is how we communicate with God and it doesn't have to be anything elaborate...it doesn't matter if your prayer is short or a big elaborate thanksgiving dinner prayer...its how you say thanks for your blessings!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think the picture they put up depicts a bunch of people wanting to let the whole mall know how great and "better than" they are because they are praying before the meal.... What's the point in making a big display of that. GAG ME.
Please bless this food and thank you for feeding me. I pray for those who are suffering, that you comfort them. And I pray for those who are hungry, that you feed them. Please protect my family and friends. Amen."
I have said this prayer with many of my friends, Hipsters, some of 'em. They love it and the 'amens' that follow are heartfelt. I am happy to be thankful for what I've been given. I deserve a lot less.
And, just since I'm writing, praying over food "santifies" it .... you don't know what someone was thinking when they cooked for you, or maybe the Energy of the animal when it died. I don't mean to open a debate on vegetarians ... I just try to be consciencious about my choices, fish over beef, say.
have you even taken into consideration that just possibly a photograpgher saw them pray before there meal which gave them the idea for the story then asked them to pray for the photo?
I pray before meals and all throughout the day whenever i have a need. I thank God for everything He has done for me. If God doesnt exist then who determined whats considered right and wrong? If God doesnt exist then there is no good and evil? It rains on the just and the unjust. I had a bad injury before i was saved and lost out on a career that i had but if that hadnt happened i wouldnt have married my now wife and gotten saved. God has a plan, He always does wether people want to believe in Him or not. Focus on Christ crucafied and Gods word and stop worrying so much about demonitation. Alot of Christians have lost the focul point and need to remember.
@Adam: coincidenally enough, with respect to your comment about who determined what's considered right & wrong, I saw this article in the NY Times today: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/23/opinion/23brooks.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=print. Not trying to be argumentative or anything, only that there is some empirical evidence out there that answers your question.
I am in agreement with the other commentors, Catholics are "christians" just like the rest of us who are saved. They are just another denomination of the entire faith. God wants to have the glory and praise and the bible is clear about that. So no matter what church or denomination you belong to, give God his just propers..
Blessings...
Derek
Half the reason I pray is to show my 3 year old daughter that we should be thankful for each and every thing we have. That food is not a privilege, but a blessing. That goes for everything – Our health, our friends and family, our cars, homes and jobs. None of these are due to us, and each one should be reflected upon and appreciated, if only just for 20 seconds a day during mealtime. To not acknowledge all that we’ve been given, in anyway shape or form, is just arrogance.
I’m also curios how many of you non-believers will feel the same in your final years, when some of us may be lying in a hospital room waiting to die. As the saying goes, you don’t find many atheists in a foxholes
I agree with Chris. I am thankful everyday for every single thing that I am given. Also, to the atheists – I respect your decision to not believe in God, but don't try to impose your views on others. You will never truly understand the power of Prayer and faith unless you have personally experienced the power of Prayer. There is something out there that is greater than you and I, and our petty worries. And don't try to tell us that we are ignorant, and God takes us away from rational thought. I have a biochemistry degree from university and am currently in pharmacy school. But despite my extensive science background, I have had many instances in my life that a Higher Power has saved my life. You wouldn't understand unless you experience it for yourself.
I hope you don't mean to imply that one can only be grateful for what they have if they believe that a higher power gave it to them, and if they don't then they're arrogant....I thought Christians weren't supposed to be judgemental, isn't that your God's job?
Wow VT. You start off nice enough by saying you hope he wasn't implying something about non-believers. Then you totally do a 180 and decide that he was implying exactly that, and completely trash his God while assuming that he is judgemental. All the man said was that his children should be grateful for all good things that come their way. Perhaps he meant if they didn't show thanks for their good fortune, they would turn into arrogant little brats. Take a chill pill.
"and completely trash his God while assuming that he is judgemental"
God is judgemental. That is why they call it judgement day. There are about a zillion passages in the bible that mentions judgement. So where is this notion that God may somehow be nonjudgemental coming from?
I have always thought that public prayers on personal matters were more for the world to see than for the Lord to hear.
"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward." Matthew 6:5
I think you missed the point. Even Jesus prayed in public. It's about your motivation. If you're praying in public to be seen, then there's your reward. But "being seen" isn't the only reason people pray in public.
I don't personally because I don't believe in god, but if I'm eating with others who do, I bow my head out of respect for my dining companions. I didn't pick "I actively refuse" because I don't object to the practice as long as it means something to the people doing it.
thats nice that you are so respectful when others do it. it bugs me when ppl are so negative about it...like if you dont want to do it, dont do it...but dont be so rude..
I refuse to bow my head or close my eyes. Besides, if everyone else is bowing their heads and closing their eyes, then they can't see that I'm not, right? So there should be no problem with a person actively refusing to do it.
I'm with Guy on this one. I chose "actively refuse" because I won't be pressured into doing something I don't believe in, no matter the setting. In my opinion, to do so would represent a capitulation of my beliefs (or lack thereof in this case). That said, I would certainly never try to stop someone from praying before a meal – even if it was at my house for a meal I paid for & prepared – if that's what they believe in.
I agree, I dont "actively" not do it, that would require me actually thinking about it and making a choice not to do it like Im rebelling. I forgot about grace completely until this article.
yah my grandparents-in laws have apparentlybeen saying the same prayer that they have been saying for like 40 years or whatever...but they only say it on holiday meals. it find it annoying and not very heartfelt
Luke 11:2–4
And he said to them, "When you pray, say: 'Father, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come. Give us each day our daily bread, and forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation."
Willy I guess we can throw out the Lord's own prayer as well as the Hail! Mary...and yes, that was taught in the Bible. It started with Gabriels' Visitation to Our Lady. "Hail! Mary, full of grace!, the LORD is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb!." -even on bended knee to her, because GOD told him so.
The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully. – Richard Dawkins
I find it interesting becuse its stated that Hes unjust but it would be just today if someone broke the law to punish them same as in Old Testiment which would intern make God just.
Guy,
Consider this post an honor because I have NEVER left a post on a blog, website, etc before. I've never felt it necessary to project my opinions on the cyber world. But you are worth it..
I have never met a more cynical, bitter person in my life. I hope life gives you all that you are looking for, whatever that may be and whoever, whatever brings some ounce of joy into your life.
God bless,
Lauren
A little food for thought:
“I have learnt that what you look for, you will find. If you are a cynic, there is a lot to be cynical about. If you want to be a skeptic, there is plenty to be skeptical about. If you want to be a pessimist, there is plenty to be pessimistic about. What you look for, you will find.”
I must also post to you – you are right on with everything I have read. The hilarious part is that people think that your view make you unhappy or cynical.
Although there are some other bible passages I like better. I prefer the ones that make claims like the earth being flat, etc.
Unless he runs for office in Arizona, Maryland, Massachusetts, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Tennessee, or Texas, because those states require belief in a higher power to serve public office.
MR–However, GOD is the same person who on our judgement day is going to be the supreme person whom that person is going to have to answer to. And he can't say there wasn't any warnings or examples. Christ taught us "Not everyone will make it into heaven."
And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence. – Bertrand Russell
Bob, if there is a God, I have to believe that on judgment day he will be more concerned with my actions and whether or not I was a good person, and not as concerned with whether I prayed before eating my ho-ho. If God is the kind of vain, petty person that is more concerned with whether I acknowledge him every day than with the impact I leave on the world, I don't really care what he thinks.
Saying grace is pointless. And actually kind of egotistical. "Thank you, Lord, for giving my family 10 turkeys, 8 pounds of mashed potatoes, two gallons of gravy, two bowls of corn and beans, and all of this other food that could feed an entire family in Africa for a month. Thank you for letting US have this food and eat all of it tonight and get fat."
Mouth breather. Guy isn't the one thanking a fairy tale for food. How does whether he sends food to Africa have anything to do with the hypocricy of thanking a fairy tale for something that that fairy tale has obvioiusly chosen to not do for someone else.
I didn't pray before I ate when I was a kid and catholic, so I certainly don't know. Like I tell people who eat at my house, if you want to pray to someone, pray to me, because I put that food on the table.
a family member of mine quickly repeats the same tired old lines before every dinner. I never see her giving thanks before breakfast or lunch, or when eating out. To me anything not from the heart is just so much mumbo jumbo.........meaningless. Also, what if you are not Christian? Does giving thanks before a meal have less value to the Deity?
I don't pray before meals, but I am grateful for every meal. I practice what most people do not...eating slowly...chewing my food many times over as to really get the flavor as to aid in digestion. Mindful eating is where it's at.
I also imagine the best way really give thanks at meal time is to eat locally farmed and produced food....thus helping you brother and sister who grow that food for you and your family.
But then again, most people do not slow their lives down long enough to actually explore this option of eating.
The faithful are very good at giving thanks for the food that sustains them. I would encourage them and everyone to grow in awareness of where they're food comes from and how it is produced and to take an active role as good stewards of the earth and promoters of human rights in labor.
America is one of the more religious nations, and also one of the nations that exploits third-world countries (and often its own workers) under the prospect of capitalism. I don't lose sleep over this, but it is hilarious for religious people to say that the faithful are grateful for where their food came from and respect human rights, etc., when one of the more religious nations is exploiting a bunch of third-world countries just so we can eat a lot more.
That's what's wrong with this country today, not enough prayer period, let alone before you eat. But I will give thanks at ALL times, and his words will continuley be in my mouth. God Bless America, my home sweet home.
Considering the rate at which prayers are answered, which is no better than praying the Spaghetti Monster, or not praying at all, I'd say they are a complete waste of time. I wish people used that time to do something useful and productive for their fellow human beings instead.
prayers are answered according to the faith of that person. they arent all answered right away or the world would be a perfect place, but its not supposed to be.
The act of praying to nothing is not nothing in itself. By praying to nothing and believing that it is actually something that wants you to do bad things to certain people, you are doing something bad. Praying by itself is nothing at face value, sure, but that's also primarily the reason why I suggested people get off their butts and do something productive. Because doing something productive rather than praying has a better chance of making the world closer to perfection.
i dont really know what youve been looking up about god..but praying to him certainly doesnt want to "make" ppl do bad things. and u said "ppl need to get off their buts ..." its not like praying takes that long anyways.. so its not "wasting" anymore time than ppl waste having comment fights on a cnn website post lol....
People who pray multiple times a day waste time. People who pray are in general probably wasting time with other religious activities (like Church - before you mention how a church can do good things, there was a CNN article a few days ago about how the congregation's tithes paid for a giant house and utilities for the pastor; there are better ways to spend that money). And nearly every religion's god has its followers do something mean to somebody else in the name of holy righteousness ("God hates fags", "kill the infidels", etc.).
You think that what is wrong with the country is not ENOUGH prayer?? I would counter that by saying that prayer is at best, useless,and at worst, damaging.
By saying that you will "pray" for something you make yourself feel better by thinking that you're doing something helpful. In reality, you're actively refraining from "doing" anything. Don't pray for the people without food, give to a food bank. It will be a lot more effective than simply "thinking" about it... or sending some sort of psychic message to god.
That is too funny about the lady's tray on the right being empty and now she is praying. I wouldn't have caught that! LOL! As for me I was raised Catholic and now I am Baptist. Too much mindless repetition in the Catholic faith and a lot of do as we tell you and do not ask questions. I felt like a mindless zombie saying the same prayers over and over again. Prayers of thanks and all prayers should be prayed with heart.
Actually not staged - it was at the food court at the CNN Center in Atlanta, and people gathered to watch the memorial service for Michael Jackson in 2009.
As long as one give HIM some kind of thanks and praise. Whether it be the same each and every occassion or it differs should not matter. HE knows whats in ones heart.
what if you are? then you don't pray... good for you. i hate how atheists need to let everyone know at all times they are atheists... they can't just stay out of the conversation when it has nothing to do with them.
I hate how Christians need to let everyone know at all times they are Christians... they can't just stay out of the conversation when it has nothing to do with them.
I hate how Christians and other religious people need to constantly have their religious symbols emblazoned all across the place. 10 Commandments don't belong in front of a state building. "In God We Trust" or "Under God" do not belong on government currency or pledges to the country (they didn't start off there anyhow).
I'm tired of religious people being such hypocrites. You can make fun of anything, but woe be to he who picks on religion.
Some people love to debate :( It's human nature. Pointless to argue because your faith will not be moved. So don't let words ruin your day. Just continue to pray for those in the dark. God bless.
i've never really known an atheist to judge people for believing in god – they just say whatever makes you happy. on the other hand, religious zealots feel the need to judge everyone who does not say they believe whatever that person believes – which is exactly what you are NOT supposed to do, but i guess that goes along w/ the hypocritical nature of religion in general. atheists just go on about their business and religious idiots get all in your business. i've never seen an atheist w/ a sign on the street trying to convert people who claim to be religious into becoming atheists – it's always the other way around. i guess that is what cults do, they try to recruit other followers so they don't feel so silly about themselves and all of their ridiculous behavior.
"i've never really known an atheist to judge people for believing in god"
I do. I have absolutely no problem judging anyone who believes the fabled boogeyman. This from another post I made on this subject-
"Quite frankly, I consider myself completely morally and intellectually superior to you. Your life is centered around bronze age dogma developed by people who believed the world was flat and the sun circled the earth. These nearly neaderthals came up with this misogynistic homophobic collection of fables and used it to stifle human development for nearly two thousand years. If you live your life based on the concept that these ignorant intellectually challenged cavemen who came up with these stories somehow had all the answers, then I believe you are intellectually and morally bankrupt. I live my life based on modern 21st century humanistic principles. You live yours based on outdated 1st century myth. And even worse, you use your quaint fictional collection of bedtime stories to openly descriminate against people"
I'm agnostic, not athiest but I feel qualified to speak to this. You complain about athiests always having to point out that they're athiests. Have you never noticed all of the cars with the stupid little fish on the trunk or the WWJD t-shirts or the crusifix necklaces or the God bless you's after someone sneezes or the religious slogans on our money and on and on and on.... How dare you scold the non-religious for identifyig themselves in a world overflowing with superstitious mumbo-jumbo and religious fanatics constantly asking if we've been saved and huge malls devoted to one or another only true religion. How hypocritical can a person be?
"in the last days there will be scoffer"s...they are the ones creating divisions among you" Jude vs.17-23, "They live by 'natural instinct' because they do not have God's Spirit in them." They have not been called. This is a huge thing people don't get, God chooses us, not the other way around. When you find yourself finally understanding The Word,(which can be difficult)and having your questions and mysteries answered, that's when you know you've been chosen. Seek, knock, and ask....you"ll find, the door will be opened, and it will be added unto you.:) Maybe atheists haven't been called yet, or there are always the children of the prince of this world,,,and we know they don't want to understand or know th e truth. I can only imagine they want to join the conversation hoping we will let in doubt & fear. Where there is doubt and fear, faith can and will NOT be. Satan knows this. He will use any thing or any body to steal us away. God opens our eyes and ears, He sends his Holy Spirit with gifts of knowledge, understanding, keys to the parables, etc. Try to forgive and pray for those who blaspheme God and Jesus. Your faithful prayers in Jesus' name can move mountains, heal the sick, and save souls. However, prayers without real faith are powerless and achieve nothing.
spins: You could thank the manufacturer of said food, the shipping company, the store that carried the product, and if appropriate, the chef and waitress.
Do you also thank the same god that supposedly put food on YOUR table for NOT putting food on the table of millions of starving children? Is that the god you thank?
Who makes the rain come, the sun to shine and the crops to grow? If you say everything in the world came to be just by chance you contradict one of the main rules of science and that is everything left to itself goes to disorder not order. Science proves there has to be a God who made the rules for science to follow.
Mwake you are right. If you clean your room, wait a few weeks. Does it become orderly or fall to disorder, so that you have to clean it again? It's a natural thing.
What does that even mean? God put food on our table with our hands? That makes no sense (and also questions the Christian notion of free will). But Sys was asking about OTHER people's tables. Or maybe even unfortunate people who had their hands cut off by religious fundamentalists. Good luck putting food on those tables with those hands!
Guy Every day, starving people are saved from the brink of starvation because good people worked to feed them. When cynical people complain about suffering and do nothing, it means they aren't working hard enough, and human beings will die.
Do you really? Every single time? There seems to be a bunch of liars here. I live in a conservative city and I NEVER see people saying grace and when I go out to eat in groups NOBODY says grace. I only ever see grace at family dinners.
Judging by the poll almost 50% of people say some form of grace at every meal. Ya right. I think people are lying to themselves instead of being honest.
Same here Matt. I also thank the Almighty along with Jesus Christ in mind for my job, good health and good food. Many people would love the bountiful food that we have in our country.
Valeire, that's really sad. Did you really have to make it a "Catholic" thing and attempt to invalidate the prayers of other belivers? You are a good example of why so many non-believers don't want anything to do with church. They see stuff like that and instead of seeing the love of Christ, they see bickering, competition, and legalistic rules. Shame on you.
Valerie, the fact that you included that last sentence in your original post reveals your heart. I have no desire to debate your beliefs about the Catholic church, but I would think your number-one priority should be showing the love of Christ to non-beleivers (which is what HE called us to do). Not claiming superiority.
Valerie, the truth is that you're an idiot. Amen.
Your little prayer is absolutely nowhere in the Bible. If you wish to grab some words from another source then you must accept that they are not of g-d. Of course even if they were in the Bible they're still man made and you're still an idiot.
very sad commentary on how mechanical you seem to view faith, Valerie. Prayer is part of a relationship to a Father that provides, not a pious rote ritual. That's what to me Catholicism became and why 30 years ago I walked from it .. to a real relationship with my God in Christ by the Spirit.
"Bless us, oh Lord, and these thine Big 'N Tasty Combo which we are about to receive, from thy factory to thine artery, thru Christ, or Lord, Amen." Seems more appropriate.
The Bible, does, however, say that the "perfect prayer" is: Our Father, who art in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name, thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day, our daily bread and FORGIVE US OUR TRESPASSES as we FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASS AGAINST US...
So in Valerie's defense, there is a repetitive prayer. That was her point. There was absolutely no need for anyone to call her an idiot.
Look into your own heart, do you like what you see?
This is exactly what atheists like me eat up. Thanks Val.
BTW, I didn't know Jesus prayed. Doesn't seem to make sense to me. If Jesus is Lord, who is he praying to?
Bunch of sheep, you are. Question your faith. Don't be scared. God surely won't condemn you for asking very obvious questions, will he? Once you get over that fear, you'll finally be free to think for yourselves. It's quite liberating.
Valerie and Adrienne seem to disagree about which prayer is the right one, so which one do you have to say to be a true christian and which one is the knock-off?
"Valerie and Adrienne seem to disagree about which prayer is the right one, so which one do you have to say to be a true christian and which one is the knock-off?"
The one true prayer is the one taught to us by Jesus himself, and quoted by Adrienne. It is in fact called "The Lord's Prayer". The prayer quoted by Valerie is a typical before meal prayer giving thanks for the meal you are about to eat. Although the one Valerie quoted is quite common, such "giving thanks" prayers may take any form. There is no set rule for them. Even a simple one liner such as "Thank you God for the food I am about to eat" is totally acceptable.
You are no better than anybody else, nobody is better than you. If your beliefs make you ahappy, keep your beliefs. You must understand other people live lives shaped by very different experiances. These lives may lead them to different conclusions.
Let us stop focusing so much on the minutae that divides us and take a moment to realize that we are all humans.
@ M I
I'm the knock off. But there is no "right one." I was trying to offer an example of a repetitive prayer. I don't claim to have all the answers. Heck, I don't even have part of the answers. But I will say this to Scott – you need to familiarize yourself with the Bible because the Bible is an important part of history, even if you don't believe it. If you want to consider yourself an educated person and debate religion, please have some knowledge of the text. That is how you "question religion."
Valerie, "True Church of Jesus Christ, not some knock off"... Are you serious? Here's something that is not a knock-off, The Catholic church is the dysfunction poster child of perverted religion! This is the most ridiculous things I’ve read all year. Before you ever write anything referencing God I strongly suggest you spend some time READING the word. There are so many things done in the Catholic Church that violates God's Word...You are in no position to judge the body of Christ in any capacity, if your entity of Catholicism even believes in Christ!.... Unbelievable... Good luck with that one when you get to the gate. Matt259 you made a great point up until you shamed her (as WRONG as she may be) that too falls under judgment... Keep on keeping on & don't take the bait.
That's hilarious: you used truth and church in the same sentence, when they obviously mean opposite things. Religion is nothing more than a system of making it ok to hate and marginalize groups that don't believe exactly the same as you. I read of more than 10 examples of someone expressing hate and intolerance in the name of your god for every example of someone associating love, forgiveness, or just helping someone out from a desire to be more christ/buddha/mohammed/xenu-like. If there were a god, he certainly could afford to be less ambiguous, contradictory and unprovable in his instructions for us when the happiness, welfare and lives of so many billions of people hang in the balance, much less the fiction of something like a soul.
Oh please Valerie. You think that Catholicism is that only way? Religion is nothing more than man's way of trying to reach God which will never work. The Bible clearly states that so why not open it up and study it. And I mean study it don't just take what you think it means and accept it but find other sources to validate your understanding but also be open minded to be wrong and change your ideas. Rituals and prayers in vain are exactly what Judaism and Islam teach also. As for praying before meals, yeah, sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. What God understands is that regardless of whether I do or not, He knows I am thankful. I think praying before a meal is an American tradition based upon the Pilgrim's heritage.
We should ALL be Thankful for ALL we have (including the food we're about to put into our mouths). It doesn't matter what religion we cling to. This world is already "going to hell in a hand basket" my grandmother would say, so use every opportunity to pray. Life's short, Pray hard!
that is an interesting prayer. I usually just do a general one thanking God for a good day so far and if it isn't a good day I pray for the lord to help me through the rest of the day and I thank him for the food that I am about to eat and to bless the hands that have prepaired it and for it to help me do his will. Amen
I am an independent Baptist and believe what my pastor teaches, which is all any of us can do. However, there was only one perfect MAN on the good Earth, and he was crucified. The thing that is certain, is that none of us know the truth but come judgment day all will be revealed and all of us will have our eyes opened wide.
Also, allow me to point out, Jesus instructed us to say the Lord's Prayer, that God already knows what we need without even telling him, isn't THAT repetitive to say The Lord's prayer over and over again???
Dear Valerie, if you would, read where Jesus teaches us how to pray. Read the passage in context and you will see that Jesus right before he prays (in his own words), he tells us NOT TO DO like those who say vain repetitions, and who think God will hear them from the abundance of their words. What we should learn from the Lord's prayer are the components of it, namely, glorification of who God is, asking for his will to be done, asking for our provision, forgiveness (as we forgive those who transgress against us), and asking for his deliverance from temptation. It ends with glorification of God again. The Bible also commands to pray "without ceasing", so our lives should be a prayer, and not limited to those phrases. Definitely, God does not want you or me or anyone to repeat any kind of set of words–because he knows that in time, it'll lose all of its meaning to us due to the ritualistic nature of it, and it won't be from the heart. And that's where it's supposed to come from.
Actually Valerie, the Lord says when you pray to pray the Lord's Prayer and to pray in private behind close doors. He does know all the things we need it is true, but your first comment was totally uncalled for regardless what religious background you claim to be.
No, it isn't. GOD gave us free will and won't interfere with it. It's a test. Do you love Him? Do you really talk to Him and accept Him as your creator? or do you just want to take the good things and forget all those harsh rules. So, yes He may know what your going to ask for. However, like a good Father, he wants us to ask and to be like a child...HIS child!
Valeri..so..who is the Lord..when Jesus instructed you to pray to lord.... So is Jesus the lord and he is talking about himself in the 3rd person... Dont you think that some psycho stuff???
I am not sure that saying the same thing makes something 'vain.' The following prayer if said with the proper intention does not imply vanity. Now if it is said publicly so that we are seen praying it, then yes, that could be certainly construed as a 'vain prayer.' In short, previous John, that passage must be understood with the correct context.
Bless us Oh Lord and these Thy gifts which we have received from Thy bounty through Christ our Lord. Amen.
To John: Is saying I love you to your parents, children etc vain repetitions?, it is not if you mean it sincerely. Even Christ repeated stuff in his prayer...see his prayer in the garden the night before his crucifixion " ...take this cup from me...." The whole point was, to mean what you say sincerely, and from the heart. Also you need to take said scripture within context of the time and who it was directed to,( ie gentiles or jews), pagans were known to repeat stuff in order to get their gods attention.
When I put food on the table for my kids, I'm not going to ask them to say grace to me every single time. I'm going to ask them to just eat the food and enjoy it.
True Guy, but I doubt that you wouldn't appreciate it if they said a simple thanks every time you fed them a meal. That is all saying grace really is, right?
Thank you Bob. I really don't care what these other people are saying, as I was NOT trying to be self-rightous at all, but if they choose to think that, oh well! AND i will DEFEND the Catholic Church, ALWAYS!
That's right defend the Catholic church and all their child molesting priests. If they were allowed to get married you might not see so much of that sickness in the Catholic church. Also it does say in the Bible not to forbid to marry like the heathen do. I am sorry but I cannot have any respect for a church that will not address this issue properly.
Yes...throw out all that mummbo jummbo crap... Its not worth spending your time over.. Live your life the right way and He will judge you according to it(im assuming, since nobody in this world has seen GOD, and if they have they are full of it)....I dont think he needs us to be think about him 24/7... Just give him the Thanks now and then and move on...
Valerie – It's fine to defend the Catholic Church, just as it's fine to be Catholic. What I think people took offense to, originally, was your contention that the Catholic Church is the "True Church of Jesus Christ, not some knock off." While I understand your reasons for believing that the Catholic Church is the "true" church, it's difficult to really defend something that's self-referencing. That is, your belief is based on one interpretation of one or two Biblical passages, as put forth by the Catholic Church – which is the thing you are defending. You see? There's no source outside of the Church and the belief itself. There are other interpretations, and of course the people who agree with those interpretations see just as clearly that they are right as you do that you are – and many of those people hold themselves to be devout Christians. Your calling their churches "knock offs" was, therefore, insulting.
About an eighth of an inch below the first option is the second option. Is that what you're looking for. Get your head out of your bible and open your eyes. There's a whole world out here you're missing.
Valerie must think that only Catholics are Christians and can be saved. I feel sorry for people like that. They ignore the problems in there own church because they think they have an edge on God and put down everyone else.
hahaha. Mike, I think that Scott was addressing JOhn, who was originally complaining about the format of this survey. The way John wanted choice 1 to be worded is given directly beneath, as choice 2.
now now, not all christians bicker or are self-righteous...Valerie doesn't see that using the phrase "knock-off's" is "holier than thou", and does need to realize that denominations don't mean a thing to God, they do to MAN, but not Our Heavenly Father. She also probably doesn't realize that speaking that way, carelessly, with some obvious ignorance, may "cause others to fall away" and that my friends is not good...."forgive them Father for they know not what they do". We must do the same.
There should have been another choice – "Depends on who is cooking!" But seriously, prayer is pretty self-serving. People who pray to an imaginary friend are delusional.
Amen ...
No. 1 is really lame. Jesus never said to pray a Hail Mary (that is idolatrous) ... He never made up an 'Our Father' prayer either... He only said, "when you pray, pray with these things in mind" ... [1] "Address The Father for whom He is, the HOLY GOD, in Heaven." ... [2] Remember, that when you do address Him, "His NAME is 'extremely' HOLY." ... [3] Remember that whether anyone chooses to acknowledge God or not, "His Will' will be done; both here on Earth (eventually), as it is 'already understood' in Heaven." ... [4] Ask in great reverence, if He would "please give you the ability to receive His daily blessings; blessings you'll need for your very existence." ... [5] Ask in great reverence, if He would "please forgive you for you daily sinning, against Him primarily; against others; and also those who sin against you; forgive them." ... [6] Ask for His Guidance, "to strengthen you, that you may not fall into sinful temptation, and that if you do come in contact with sin, that He would show you a way out of it; 'before' it becomes sin in your life." ... [7] Finally, thank Him for it all, in Jesus' Name (after all, part of Jesus' death, was done so, in order that you would have a way to be able to converse with the Father in the first place; even to be able to call Him 'Abba' [Daddy], Father. Your 'daily needs' aren't identical every day; so, your prayers should also reflect that ... speak with God like you would in a normal conversation – He dosen't want, or care for repetitous prayer, like idolators do to their gods. I hope this helps.
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THE BIBLE SAYS IMMEDIATELY PRIOR TO THE LORDS PRAYER, "AVOID VAIN REPETITIONS.... AFTER THIS MANNER, PRAY...." Then he says the Lord's prayer. Oh, and Scott – You're a backslider... That is so obvious.
Edwords what kind of stupidity is that? If you let your kids decide whether to brush their teeth or not they wouldnt, if you let them decide to whether go to school or not, they wouldn't. If you let them decide whether to pray or not they wouldn't. You must teach your kids everything, they may not like it in the beginning but then they get used to it and end up liking it.
VJ– Atheists don't need your prayers. Get off your pedestal!
Pray if you want, but don't force it on your kids. That's brainwashing. Let them decide.
Watch a video of or better yet, visit a factory pig, cow, chicken or turkey farm and realize what you are praising God for. And then, think about our search for Earth-like planets that may soon yield a more powerful species and you may be praying for deliverance.
I think that thanking God for your food is like saying, tank you God for giving ME food while you are leting all those other people starve to death. NO, I do not say grace.
oops, forgot one thing, people who have true faith in Our Heavenly Father, His Son Jesus, and His Holy Spirit, believe because they've been given that gift from God. HE opens our eyes, HE writes our names in the Lamb's book of Life, and HE chooses who's eyes and ears will be opened, HE chooses who will be blessed with understanding. If someone is "atheist,agnostic,or unbelieving", don't try to change them,,,just pray for them. Faith is a gift, it comes from HIM, He picks us, not the other way around.
wow, I don't think this is what God meant when he told us to pray. A few years ago my young son came up with a wonderful table prayer. " thank you lord for all that you bless us with, and please bless, multiply, and share this food with the multitudes, like you did the loaves and the fish, especially with those who are hungry or less fortunate. In Jesus' name we share and give thanks. If you believe that Jesus is who he says he is, and that all things are possible through him, why not make grace an action prayer. Giving thanks is great, but sharing/helping others is what he asks of us. God bless and please,,,,when debating religious topics, stop attacking each other, especially those who claim to love God. Self-righteous arrogance/ignorance/or ego has been warned NOT to cause others to fall away.
There is literally no option for me. I don't pray, and I'm not going to, but I don't actively refuse. I just don't. The poll makes it seem like praying is the default, and it takes some special effort to not do so.
There is not enough rudeness and derision in the universe to adequately convey my feelings towards prayer and those who indulge that vice.
Does rub a dub dub thank you for the grub, Amen...Yeah God count? Then yes we do...every evening before supper my 4 year old says grace for us.
I worked to get that food on my plate. No god ever helped me and I'm quite alright with that.
I try to remember to pray but sometimes its not before the meal but more in the middle of it. Normally it sounds like this "God this meal is great and I am thankful but please don't have this meal fight me back later"
More biblical reading before any of us give self-opinions. If you cannot give a biblical reasoning and give a corresponding biblical reference then we should not always spill our guts or we'll be looked at like those in Romans 1 & 2 leading/causing our brothers to stumble. We bless God for all things, including the food He provides daily. Christ Jesus thanked God as He broke bread, so should we. Stop the denomination wars and Have the mind of Christ; Kingdom Thoughts, gather the wheat of the harvest aka bringing the our siblings/prodigal sons and daughters back to God. Praying for us all! We are a team in the Body of Christ (ephesians).
Guys, Valerie is laboring under the common Catholic delusion that her salvation is based on her works or her "good deeds" .. Its only by our faith and the grace of God that we are saved (catholic or not)
Jews pray AFTER meals... I do, after every meal. Since I couldn't really vote for any of the above choices, I'm casting my vote here. :)
I've never had lunch with anyone who prays before eating, and I would abstain if I did. Prayer is not a part of my life and I find it to be insulting, because it was a person who worked for that meal, it was not a gift from a god. The thanks should go to the person who earned the money to put the meal on the table. No work = no meal. I haven't seen anyone turn water to wine or create bread for the masses from a single loaf recently.
I don't pray with christians, their god doesn't talk to me. I will sometimes pray to my gods before a meal.
Leave Valerie alone...man, some people are so cruel to others. All she did was state her prayer before meals and her religion.What is the problem??
Interesting poll. My husband is an agnostic and I am an atheist. We are raising our daughter to think for herself. And yet, we say a prayer before every meal (even at restaurants). Friends who know we are atheists are always a bit surprised.
So why do we pray, even though we don't believe in god? The answer is pretty simple: it's relaxing. Plus, it's always good to remind yourself that you're thankful! I'm surprised that so many atheists think this is an issue. I wouldn't want my daughter's teachers to lead her class in prayer, but I see nothing wrong with saying "thank you" for your meal – even if you're really just thanking yourself!
thanks to all the christians who have made the point I would normally have to argue here, organized religion breeds hubris and an elite sense of entitlement in those who really buy in...its one thing to argue your own interpretation of an philosophical idea, but to act like you know you are right is hilarious! Thank you...keep saying these things out loud so the moderates that think you are normal come over to our side :)
Christians may pray because of these reasons:
(1 Corinthians 10:25) Eat anything that is sold in the market without letting your conscience trouble you. for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it". If an unbeliever invites you to his house and you wish to go, eat whatever is set before you, raising no question on the grounds of conscience.
1 Timothy 4:4 says, For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
Jesus even prayed for food so people want to be like Him: Luke 9:16 Then He took the five loaves and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, He blessed them, and brake, and gave to the disciples to set before the multitude.
The Bible is full of scriptures like these, But if you don't read the Bible I'm guessing you wouldn't know so I thought I'd show where to find it. I'm guessing also by some of these responses assuming Christians answered the poll question they don't even know why they pray before a meal.
This statement is only for Christians : if everything in the earth is the Lord's why are you talking about "what about me why not thank ME? I'm the one who did this." If that's you, you all should know better but I forgive you. lol
Prayer should be private, between God and oneself. If I bow my head to say grace in public, it remains a prayer between myself and God. I do not need to prove to the general public or any other individual how religious I am or how "Christian" I am. A specific religion, or even denomination, is irrelevant. It is the communion between one's God and oneself that matters.
Thankyou Sylver for saying the truth so well and not being so "righteous" prayer is just something some of us decide to do and is usually private. If I'm eating with my parents or my girlfriend that is also christian than we bow our heads and one of us prays out loud but is usually the loudness of a whisper so we don't interupt anybody else. Other than that when I'm alone it is always a private thing between me and God. It was awesome one day I was at a mall and started to pray before I ate and the guy next to me asked if he could join me it was such an awesome experience.
Prayer is a request for good things to happen or to offer something up to God. Im Catholic, I pray the same thing for meals every day, just because another denomination says something different doesn't mean it's wrong.
why can't (you) people just agree to disagree?
All of this angst (from each side) about believing or not believing in something, just let people have their own views!
I think Jesus would be pretty sad with people arguing over HOW to pray. What is important is what comes from the heart.
What year is this, 1462?
"I actively refuse". What? What sort of nimrod made this poll? People just don't pray before meals. It's like asking if you actively refuse to purchase balloons.
And "It's never been a part of my life, but I'm not opposed." Could you just try harder to convert some people?
Even the choices for those who do pray are poorly stated. How about Always, usually, only on special occasions?
What terrible choices. "I actively refuse"? What the heck? As if not praying before eating requires one to go out of his way? And "It's never been a part of my world, but I'm not opposed"? Why even have that second part on there, unless the writer was trying to weasel it to sound more pro-religious? It's clear whoever wrote these wants prayer to be considered the norm, but that doesn't mean you can word every choice to reflect that.
You people come to the caribbean for some good food.
The atheists who have replied; they sound so angry and arrogant. Do atheists meet together to discuss what they don't believe in or is there any community among atheists? I suppose there are vast belief differences among atheists just as there are among Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Mormons, etc. When I was a teenager, I wasn't an atheist exactly, more of a skeptic with cynical tendancies. I was taught to think about things and make my own conclusions. Over time my thoughts drew me to ponder the Christian God. So I began asking questions and looking for answers. Long story short...I have chosen the Catholic faith to follow. The totality of my religious experiences culminated here. The Catholic faith that I studied has it all. I found portions of truth at different churches and in philosophical thinking. And I was very surprised to find absolute Truth in what the Catholic Church teaches and believes. Anyway, in my small circle of Catholic/Christian followers, I find that not everyone believes the same even though we all call ourselves "Catholic" or "Christians." What I do see is that their beliefs, or lack of intensity about their beliefs, influence how they live their lives. And part of that for me is being thankful, not just for food but for all things. Yes, as hard as it can be, all things. There are many hard concepts but being thankful is more for me than for God. I don't get points with God for being thankful, my position with Him or His love for me doesn't change or isn't influenced by my being thankful. It is an option I have; I choose to be thankful; it is good for me, to be thankful.
"The absolute truth" is an interesting phrase. Especially when you also point out that within your own "small circle" that "not everyone believes the same".
So if Catholicism holds the absolute truth, and you've "found" it, does that mean your friends are going to hell because they don't believe the same thing you do? Or is it most likely that you've taken pieces of the faith and arranged them so they fit what you already think?
The fact that so many people can read the same words and attend the same sermons and still practice the same religion in completely different ways suggests there's nothing "absolute" about the "truth" you've found.
What it comes down to is there is no reason other than fear to believe in any sort of god. I for one find the natural world we all live in to be fantastic on its own, and attributing the complex mechanisms that have made it what it is (and continue to do so) with man-made myths and the worshiping of a long-forgotten desert tribe's childish, jealous "god" a complete denigration of what mankind has been able to achieve to this point, and I refuse to be a part of that.
Hi Joel. I see what you mean. But just because we all believe differently within a Christian community doesn't mean that Absolute Truth doesn't exist.
I guess I should have said that studying about the Catholic faith helped to solidify my belief in Absolute Truth. That that is what I found there...and a very humble and beautiful way for me to worhip God. Truth is "what is true" and absolute means "perfect, ultimate, complete". I believe God "IS" truth.
The Catholic Church is where I find a complete, complex source where I can most fulfillingly worship God. This is just my choice, my experience. The whole service points to Christ and what He did on the cross for us.
And no just because we don't believe exactly the same way, doesn't mean someone is going to hell. The Catholic Church actually refrains from ever making that determination. That is God's decision. You might think "so-n-so" is going to hell but you don't really know. It's between you and God. Who knows what happens in the moments before a person dies and leaves their earthly existence?
Also, the natural world is fantastic and complex; I agree. I see the world as a gift from God who made us a beautiful place to live and as a way to remind us of his love for us. "You see that tree, that mountain, the blue sky, the evening sky, the stars, etc., I made it for you to enjoy because I love you." That's what I see.
KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!
If people are going to live by the bible, then they should be ok with the story about stoning the middle eastern woman who commit adultery to death, killing people who work on Sunday and should never wear mixed fabrics. It says it in the bible.
Marg are you talking about this story in the Christian Bible in "John chapter 8"? : When they kept on questioning Him, He straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there.Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
She didn't get stoned because of "Jesus". I think you are referring to some other religion not Christianity which is named after Jesus "Christ".
My food is going to nourish my body because I purchase food that meets my body's nutritional needs. My food is not going to poison or kill me because I wash and prepare it properly. I don't feel the need to thank god for the food because he didn't buy it for me, he didn't work to give me the money, he didn't study at school to get the degree that got me my job. I have managed to go without the pre-meal blessing of any invisible sky people for 28 years now without incident. Amazing really, when you think about all of the people I have influenced to walk away from the church that he would toss a poison carrot or something in there, but no, still doing just fine.
All I know is life has been so much better since I realized there is no god.
Quit the pissing contests about whose god is the real one and which way is the right way to pray to him/her/it. Go enjoy the one life you actually have instead of collecting points towards a fantasy that will never actually happen.
Amen. So to speak.
Joel, I'm glad you are enjoying the life you have now... but you are making a generalization about those who believe in G_d that I feel needs to be corrected. Not everyone who believes in G_d is doing so because of promises of reward in the afterlife. Jews like me, for example, are taught to believe that the afterlife is irrelevant – it is the life you are living NOW that matters, and you are to do everything you can to make the world a better place while living gently, peacefully and tolerantly.
People get screwed up when they start claiming their faith is the only "true" faith.
Oh, /r/atheism, what havoc your wreak...
religion is a joke. keep blindly following and quoting text as the truth. noone knows the trust. open your eyes.
Bruce,
How very fitting that you should quote not from a 20th or 21st century atheist but from an 18th century American Girondin! Funny revolution...how it always eats its children. And this being true from the time before time in eternity with the 'non serviam' of Lucifer all the way down to this age with its touted liberalism and continued 'enlightenment'.
My statement of your 'a priori' opinion was not a compliment and neither is it archaic. But I sense yet another 'ad hominem' attack at work. While I am no expert Bruce, I do have a classically trained mind and will not fall prey to the typical straw arguments raised by many the atheist.
I will pray for your true enlightenment though you are someone I know no more than Adam. I wish you well and should you wish to continue this debate in email form, my address has been posted now twice in this comment string.
Seat of Wisdom – pray for us.
I just look around at everyone and have a laugh.
I'm thankful to myself for providing the meal, not some imaginary friend.
You're all idiots for praying to a god. You know who you SHOULD be praying to? The Ssun. God is a made up idea that leads to NOTHING good, but the Sun, gives us energy, life, food, EVERYTHING that we have. Those plants outside? Sun. That bible you're reading? Sun. The chickens, cattle, etc, all powered by the Sun. Stop believing in false idols an worship the thing that actually does make life.
YES! ALL PRAISE ME AND LOOK DIRECTLY AT ME WHILE YOU PRAY!!
AND I COME OUT WHEN THE SUN GOD'S TAKING A BREATHER AND SCREW WITH THE SEA!
Funny!
http://www.regent.edu/acad/schcom/phd/com707/aquinas.html
It's embarrassing. You might as well wear an "I'm with stupid" t-shirt with an up-arrow on it. God doesn't exist, the afterlife doesn't exist, and praying to your lord and master won't get you anything but weird looks from the smart people.
As someone who believes in an "other side" but not particularly a "heaven/hell", I give thanks by treating life with respect. I feel that whenever I eat the meat of a cow, deer, pig, or otherwise, I have respect for it, and honor it by enjoying what is eaten. The same goes for respecting the earth and those who grew the corn, wheat and other items i'd enjoy. Where there is death for others to live, I also honor life by help nurturing it through volunteering at animal shelters and assisting a foster home group for animals. It may not seem like a fair trade off, but in terms of karma/good deeds/ honoring life, it's what I do. The mother earth we walk on has been around for millions of years and has provided more than most of us understand or acknowledge, and I believe that is what is important right now while i'm alive, giving thanks by repaying the favor to help other living entities live and grow.
If there's really a "God" that exists, or any higher being for that matter, i'd like to believe that it wants to see life flourish and prove it more so by helping others live,than giving thanks to it for my own life. I am alive and well, so I do things to help others live. I can't solve problems in 3rd-world countries and though I may not see where my occasional donations every couple months go overseas, I know I can help the horses, cats, dogs and other animals that can't speak for themselves. I think more people should show their honoring life and thanks for being well by helping others be well. I'm sure Wakan Tanka (my bloodline's version of a higher being/'God')/The Greatmother Earth/etc wants this.
This is a beautiful, thoughtful way to look at the issue, and I'm glad you've shared it here... it's a shame that we can't have more input from the non-Judeo/Christian point of view.
I've always believed that as long as we live judiciously, thoughtfully and with a grateful eye towards that which is greater than ourselves, we're on the right path to enlightened living.
Thank God, I"m a recovering catholic! So hypocritical, so focused on guilt, so focused on "You haven't given us enough money yet, I don't care what you say", and oh, yeah, so focused on little boys. Grateful that I was up in the choir with the nuns when young instead of behind the doors as an altar boy with the priests.
By the way, given the history of which there is only one, did or did not Karl Benz have something to do with the car I in fact now drive?
I don't drive a Mercedes but a Ford. And if not Karl Benz, did Henry Ford?
For those with minds open to know.
http://www.regent.edu/acad/schcom/phd/com707/aquinas.html
The problem with theocracy is that everyone wants to be Theo. - james dunn
Why isn't "No" an option? Every response either implies that you do, you did or you refuse to. I take issue with the "refusal" response because it implies hostility. How about "No"?
JMKokenge,
You are trying to use the logical fallacy of Correlation and Causation to prove the existence of a god? Just because two events occur together does not mean that one caused the other, or because two variables have a connection does not automatically imply one causes the other.
Theology is not science, it is the study of religion, and by your use of the word, and based upon your earlier postings clearly is implied to christian theology only, and not that of other religions who believe or worship some type of deity (a theos)
There is no scientific proof for the existence of a god, as Christopher Hitchens said, “What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof,"
Creation is proof of a Creator. When people look at Creation and do not see it for what it is then they conclude there is no Creator.. That is their own fault. By taking that point of view they do not eliminate God's validity they do so in their own minds. Thus deceiving themselves away from God.
Dave,
If for arguments sake I agree with your statement above then the next decision needed to be made for myself is which god or gods in particular am I to believe created it all? Without meaning to be offensive, can I assume you are a Christian? Does your statement invalidate those who believe in other gods and who don’t necessarily believe as you do? No one can prove any particular god or gods actually exist; so even if there is a creator its defining nature is unknown to us.
I am an atheist only because I believe in one less god than you do.
Bruce, The God who created all things has a name. His name is Jehovah, means he causes to become. He also describes himself this way. I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be.. History reveals that this is God's name it is traced to be true in original Bible texts as the tetragramaton the Hebrew 4 letters which is also translated as YHWH, Yahweh. Many Bibles still have that name in it.. It exists some 7,000 times in the Bible. It's in dictionaries, encyclopedias, buildings, old churches, The even had it on the movie Raiders of the Lost Ark just to give an example..
Jehovah is the one and only true God. He theirfore is worshiped by only those who accept him as their God and those are the only ones that he accepts worship from. All other gods worshipped are false..
Bruce,
I have said nothing about the use of a fallacy. Did you pose that as a question to me? Since you brought up 'Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc' you must be a student of logic. That is truly great. You however are arguing ad hominem though when you quote Christopher Hitchens. How is his statement a proof except of Mr. Hitchens' own mind? (He is being prayed for as well while he battles esophageal cancer–poor man.)
Theology is a science. The definition of a thing always declares the essence and thus, theology is the study of God. To study anything and arrive at an idea, the process must pass the test of human reason. And human reason comes to its end via a process of not knowing to knowing, or being reduced from potency to act. Furthermore, the existence of God is most certainly able to be knows through causes–which points back to 'scientia'. What is the etymology of the word science?
How can God be studied–of course this is the mantra of the atheist. This is an opinion and opinions can not be the basis of truth. It is an a priori supposition that pollutes the process of reasoning. Argumentum ad verecundiam! An opinion does not an expert make.
You do rightly suggest that the Correlation and Causation argument is not a proof of the existence of God by calling into question its weakest aspect. (This is why Aquinas when using the Aristotelian method of arguing employed 5 proofs.) This is true. But that weakness does not discount its validity when coupled with other proofs. From reason alone we can come to the conclusion of the existence of God. You may refuse to believe the material aspect of these arguments logically (because they are found in a book which you a priori believe not to be inspired) but you can not refuse the veracity when examining them using formal logic.
1. The un-moved Mover
2. Causality proof
3. Contingency proof
4. Degrees of being
5. Proof by design
Please do not respond by quoting a 20th or 21st century atheist.
Very intersting, and you referred to me as a priori, how very archaic; morever, you asked that I not reply by quoting some 20th or 21st century atheist so I will comply with your wish.
"The study of theology, as it stands in Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on nothing; it proceeds by no authorities; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing and admits of no conclusion."
Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1793-5)
Some words of wisdom that are worth pondering by those in this string. They are from Gilbert Keith Chesterton.
"I believe what really happens in history is this: the old man is always wrong; and the young people are always wrong about what is wrong with him. The practical form it takes is this: that, while the old man may stand by some stupid custom, the young man always attacks it with some theory that turns out to be equally stupid." June 1922
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." April 1930
"Men invent new ideals because they dare not attempt old ideals. They look forward with enthusiasm, because they are afraid to look back." 1910
"One of the chief uses of religion is that it makes us remember our coming from darkness, the simple fact that we are created." January 1921
"There are those who hate Christianity and call their hatred an all-embracing love for all religions." January 1906
"A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it." 1925
That mans wisdom is foolishness because he imparts nothing beneficial just clever wordings than can be false under scutiny.. for example dead going with stream... living go against it.. it is true in physical way but figuratively speaking the stream can mean many things.. And going against it can apply to many things.. Even true religion can go against the broad and spacious form of belief.. So although he has some witty expressions they are not wisdom in themselves.
For those of you that want proof that God exists look around you. The proof is the evil world we see.. The Devil and demons that people do not want to believe exist are very real they are maneuvering events in this world to go Godless.. They have been behind every form of false belief there is. They have been around observing and corrupting mankind since it's beginning. The introduce vice and work to make it acceptable to the masses. They use technology to speed up the corruption process. Notice look around, bad is being made to look good. Perversion is made to look alternative or enlightened. Evil seems to grow every day, gov's are more evil today than ever, evil medias cover for them. Mainstream religions molested by the thousands and still stand as "representatives of God" but they are not. Proof of God you say look around, I say.. Good is not appreciated anymore, the lie is it's substitution. Only a evil force opposed to God can maneuver all this on a global scale.. Notice it is working to unite the world politically why do you suppose this is? This evil force has plans for all of you and it will not be pretty.. If you want the answer as to what is coming it only comes from God and his Bible.. But you mustn't hate him.. He is your only hope..
"Don't you know there ain't no devil, it's just god when he's drunk" - tom waits
If you want to find evil, look no further than your own holy book. There are passages of murder, slavery, rape and other heinous crimes all dictated and directed by your all-holy, benevolent god.
If you want a contemporary example, look at the suffering in the world. If there's a god and he's all-powerful and benevolent, why doesn't he stop it? Does he choose not to? Well, if that's the case, then I hastily choose not to follow him.
Blynn, God is guilty of nothing. What he does is right. He has every right to end the lives of wicked people. He made them he can remove them. Just as he did with the Flood. No one is in the right to accuse him. Satan means slanderer. He has slandered God right from the start of humanity accusing God of withholding from humanity.. Well Satan proved to be the liar because of him we die. Satan who influeneces rebellion towards God is responsible for those who die as a result of God's judgments. See you are missing the true guilty one.
Praying before meals? I did a lot of that. As a young Christian, I wondered why we were thanking an outside disinterested party for the hard work that farmers ranchers truckers and my parents did. Seemed dishonest. Glad I'm Atheist now. Credit where credit is due. Honesty is the ONLY policy.
I see God's hand at work in my life and he does answer my prayers. If I prayed, and nothing ever happened, I wouldn't believe in it. But things do happen, and God shows me all the time that he's real and that he loves me. I wish you could know what I'm talking about.
this is stupid
Erica...that is perfectly flawed logic.
Would it make better sense–at least logically if you were grateful to Karl Benz for the car you drive now? Even though he did not make the one you and your family currently drive nor did he pay for it or the garage you may park it in?
Are you not grateful to Karl Benz? If you answer no, then you have a poor knowledge of history or you do not understand the notion of causality well. If you answer yes to being grateful for Karl Benz, then why would you deem God–a much great benefactor to your existence a myth?
Because it is a myth, one of many perpetrated upon mankind by those too ignorant to understand the true nature of the universe, yet it is certainly understandable why a person from that age of man would and could believe in such things. What is not understandable is why a person from this age would continue to believe in such nonsense when science and our understanding of the universe clearly demonstrate the opposite.
Bruce,
What in science exactly in the 20th-21st centuries demonstrates the opposite in relation to the notion of causality as a PROOF of the existence of God? I am quite versed in science and I have yet to find a contradiction between the two. It is also interesting that the definition of science itself implies a progression of causation.
science – the knowledge of things through causes
Theology by definition is also then a science. Maybe this is the fact which you simply refuse. If this is then that is entirely different from stating that religion has nothing to do with science.
Dave,
I appreciate the calm tone of your response, but what you are talking about is faith, and to have faith means making a virtue out of not thinking. I think you have it backwards, those who have a certain disposition or attitude are drawn to religions and gods, and those who preach faith in an unknowing god actually enable and elevate it, in a sense become or are intellectual slave holders.
Neither you nor anyone else posting here possesses any direct or positive knowledge or powers that I myself don’t possess, so your claims as to understand god’s ways are unfounded.
A bit of advice, you can take it or leave it, it’s all about reason and logic, either go on believing in gods for which there is no evidence for, or open your eyes and see the world as it really is.
Bruce you make a good point but you have to admit it does fall apart if the one true God does exist. I believe God does exist and so do the angels and the fallen angels (demons). The demons have been convincing mankind to worship all kinds of falsehoods all through history.There is a danger in worshipping other gods and the people that have made that same mistake have paid the consequences not necessarily by God but because of the crazy behavior they are deluded into thinking is correct. You seem like a good person. I hope that you might change your mind about God someday.
Bruce the evidence of God is everywhere.. Every piece of life is evidence of Him.. God's qualities are evident in him handiwork.
Every piece of life is only evidence of god if you believe in god. If not, every piece of life is evidence of the laws of biology. Where's the evidence in a higher power that doesn't require blind faith in order to be considered evidence at all?
Kayde, Everything in life emits some form of uniqueness which revals intelligence and wisdom that only could have been imparted by someone of greater intelligence. There is no way such intelligent creation could have come about by itself.. Nothing of humanities inventions come about without thought and efforts, you no doubt will agree with this. How does that law and cause and effect not apply all other creations in the universe? It most certainly does apply.. Regardless of what we want believe...
"There is no way such intelligent creation could have come about by itself."
Again, though, you're just offering up your beliefs as "proof." I'm sure it sounds great if you believe in god to begin with, but it's not empirical evidence.
I actively refuse. I say thank you to those that prepared and made it possible to eat as a family, but we do not attribute our hard work and dedicate to some 2,000 year old bronze age mythology.
I don't pray because there is no god. I do thank myself because I worked hard to get the money to buy the food and made it myself. Put the thanks where it's deserved: on the people who made it possible.
There will always be people who thank God for what they receive. Even if the world degrades into complete rebellion against God. He will always have those who appreciate Him and will reward them with this earth the others will be let go to fall to their own ways and system which is soon to end.
If anyone is interested in continuing a discussion–even those who would deem me a fool or duped, please e-mail me at jkokenge@prodigy.net.
What have you to lose? You just might gain some knowledge about your own existence, that of your fellow man, and the church God established for all people regardless of their former lives, creed, or complete lack of belief in Him or His Church.
You just might be able to gain some participation and share in the promise he gave...John 5,24 "Amen, amen I say unto you, that he who heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath life everlasting; and cometh not into judgment, but is passed from death to life."
In Christ the King, High Priest
Much of this petty debate really doesn't matter at all.
Catholic, Protestant, Non-Denominational, or any other sect or religion (Muslim, Jew, Hindu...), and you pray before your meals, good for you. If you find some peace, solace, or feeling of thankfulness, that's great. It doesn't matter the words you say, whether they are original or not. If good things come from your prayer, power to you.
If you're like me and not as religious, there's nothing wrong with not praying either. If you can find that same peace, solace, and thankfulness without speaking to God/his messenger, hey, that's great too.
What I'm saying is really simple, and I hope people catch on to it. If you're religious and it leads to good things, power to you, but I will have little tolerance for extremism and claims that your faith or practice is superior to mine.
At the same time, if you're atheist, agnostic, etc, and you're a good person who acts with kindness and respect to others, you'll have my support. If you go around blindly calling people stupid sheep, I will have little tolerance for you either.
It's called acceptance, people. If you agree with me, post below.
At least it seems at around 4:08 eastern time, 67% of the people polled believe in God. They may not pray before every meal but at least they still believe!
My family says grace before every meal. I live my life in constant prayer to God. It's vital to a personal relationship with him. I do not judge anyone who has an opposing belief than mine. In fact, if you want the mention of God taken off of the money, fine. Take it off. It will not diminish who He is. He is the name above all names. Remove His name from anything you'd like to. He's still God. Creator of all. I wonder if you've realized that it take more faith to be an atheist. If we, the Christians, are wrong at the end of our lives, we're not out anything. If, however, atheists are wrong, your non-belief has cost you everything.
well said sojourner, I agree.
For the benefit of those in this now lengthy string that balk at the notion of the Catholic Church standing in judgement concerning religion, please refer to Matthew 18, 16-18.
In fact, this is also intended for those of you who wrongly discredit the entire Catholic Church because of the sins of its now thoroughly post-modern clergy...read the entire chapter 18 of St. Matthew's gospel. Jesus Christ himself promised to his own disciples a horrible punishment for scandal–and the sins of the past 40 years are most definitely a scandal.
In this one chapter, these 3 hefty ideas are spoken of by Jesus Christ; scandal, judgement, forgiveness, reparation...
No one should be the slightest bit surprised that clergy have committed sins. We are all capable of it. Nearly 20% of the Apostles Jesus Christ personally chose denied him!
Matthew 18
[16] And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. [17] And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. [18] Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.
I think you need to read revelation 17 &18 there it depicts the eventuality of all false religion describing it as a Harlot riding of the back of the wild beast (world political leaders) It talks about the judgment that will soon come about from God through the united power of world government. You should read it and when you do you will see who fits into this category of the Harlot it will be quite obvious..
Jesus the Christ said and I quote, "IAM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE. NOONE CAN GO TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME."Also He said and I quote, "IAM THE VINE AND YOU ARE THE BRANCHES." SOY EL CAMINO, LA VIDA Y LA VERDAD." Without Jesus we are lost, living in falsehood and lies of the world and we are zombies, the living dead.I am inviting everyone with open hearts and minds and pure purpose to invite Jesus into your lives and make Him be your God becasue I want everyone here to experience what I experiences. The pure joy and peace. Happiness and peace that the world cant give that He alone is capable of giving. Everlasting peace and joy that no amtter what happen around you .
Ligaya, You are correct in that Jesus is the way and means of salvation. But he is not God. The father is Greater than I am Jesus said. Also at the end of the 1,000 years reign Jesus will hand perfected mankind back to his Father. Jesus will have served his Father in a Great way in saving mankind from sin and imperfection.. If you are going to quote the Bible use it in all it's context..
here's what I say: "I'm glad I went out there to get a job to pay for the food I eat on a day to day basis"
I think it should be worked do you give thanks for your food. Saying grace what does that really mean? It sounds like a ceremony.. It is about being thankful and thanking God for what we have at the moment. Saying Grace is a wordy way of implying something totally different. Jesus did not say grace he gave thanks..
We have a creator and sustainer, and he likes to be thanked for His favors upon us. If you give thanks, He will surely grant us more. In Thy name, O Lord!
to scott and the others who don't know a thing about the bible thanks to their parents. Jesus prayed to his father in heaven for they are a trinity 3 persons in one . who's the idiot. and everyone better straighten up an fly right as the end is near believe it or not read the bible . of course it was written by man the ones who followe Christ wrote it according to Him.. man most people are plain idiots. i hope some of you wake up and be a littl realistic and maybe you will get it instead of looking only at you view point check it out . lots of love to you all , even tho
Rita why are promoting a trinity that is not in the Bible.. No where in the Bible did Jesus claim he was God or a part of God. They are separate individuals.. The head of the woman is the man, the head of the man is Christ, the head of the Christ is God.... You are teaching an incorrect view of Jesus Christ..
We’re the idiots? You’re the one who believes in this trinity thing, and yet some of us need to wake up and be a little realistic?
Your basic belief is in a supreme being that can do anything (but does nothing), knows everything (but says nothing), that is present everywhere (but conveniently invisible).
Nothing can ever be proved to have been achieved through prayer. Quite to the contrary, things get done when people ignore religion and start thinking for themselves, and roll up their sleeves and get busy.
Bruce I do understand your sentiments. But I must say faith is not the possession of all people. That means some will never be able to understand the ways of God. God actually keeps himself hidden for a reason. But it is up to us to seek him. He does not keep himself hidden from all, he stays away from the proud and haughty ones. Yet reveals who he is to the lowly and meek. The wisdom of this world is foolishness to him. The nations are as a drop in a bucket to God.
It can be quite frustrating to those who don't understand.. But I will say something as advice.. You can take it or leave it.. It's all about attitude.. God is drawn to those with the right disposition/attitude.. To them he is real as real as you and I.
Dave, I couldn't agree with you more. Great point.
Dave, what frustrates those of us who are agnostic or atheistic is that people like you don't understand that we truly have no desire to be like you. Way too many religious people behave with an "Oh, honey, if you just knew what I know..." attitude. It's patronizing and incorrect.
I really see no point in giving thanks (Saying grace before a meal), just as the idea of prayer asking god(s) to nullify the laws of the universe on behalf of a single petitioner is equally ridiculous, i.e. praying for the oil leak in the Gulf of Mexico to stop, or to heal the sick, etc…
My family uses the standard issue Catholic prayer, but we add on our own comments whenever we're moved to. For me, the use of the same prayer that I said with my family growing up, and that my parents used, and my grandparents, connects me to the past. It's not a "rule"...it's a tradition that makes me feel connected to my past, and it reminds me of my obligation to be a good example to the next generation...my kids. Of course, we also have a long tradition of an adult saying, "It's time to say grace," which prompts one of the kids to yell, "Grace! Okay...let's eat." Come on...God must laugh at the funny prayers, right?
Why would anyone pray in public like those women in the picture are doing? Bizarre is all I can say.
Before every meal I pray to the GOD FLATUS that HE may spare me embarrassment later in the day.............The Bible, somewhere in the back
Before each meal,I sit and take a few moments to feel the creator entering me in each breath and leaving, and comming again with the next breath.There is no right or wrong , there is no book, but there is that Joy and Peace, Jesus,and all the other great Masters spoke of.Know that Peace and it will set you Free!
So even though the Catholic church was started hundreds of years after Jesus and the church of the Bible, they are still the only true church. Sounds like you need to wake up a do a little history study.
Please share this history with me Mike. I can be contacted at jkokenge@prodigy.net.
In Christ the King
Hmmm. Funny how the more extreme answers are the more popular ones. I would think most people would fall in the middle.
It makes me uncomfortable when I am at some big family gathering-type event and everyone joins hands around a circle because they just ASSUME everyone in the group thinks and believes the way they do. People need to open their minds about the possiblity that not everyone believes the world was created in 6 days.
I feel your pain. Luckily my family are all a bunch of heathens.
I will give thanks for the food I recieve when it's explained to me why I get too much and 3 billion people don't get enough.
I was always partial to "rud a dub dub, thanks for the grub...yaaaaaaay Lord!"...gramps used to use that one on Xmas and it drove gramma nuts.
There is no God...only Zuul....
Wrong question. Ask yourself how many people in this country are praying they GET a meal.
Are you kidding? The way my wife cooks, we pray after the meal!
Ligaya143: reading your last post, I can assure you that "arrogant" and "superior" are the last adjectives that come to mind.
Seriously? How do you take a simple lunch time poll and turn it into this? People of all religions need to grow up, and realize that you are never going to live in a world where everyone believes exactly what you do, and what 99.9% of all religions teach is love and tolerance. And, I implore all Catholics like Valerie to just shut your mouth, because you force the rest of us to have to defend ourselves and our church against the ignorance the falls out of your mouth like word-vomit.
“Everybody prays whether [you think] of it as praying or not. The odd silence you fall into when something very beautiful is happening or something very good or very bad. The ah-h-h-h! that sometimes floats up out of you as out of a Fourth of July crowd when the sky-rocket bursts over the water. The stammer of pain at somebody else s pain. The stammer of joy at somebody else's joy. Whatever words or sounds you use for sighing with over your own life. These are all prayers in their way."–Frederick Buechner
That's not praying. That's a natural instictual reaction. "Praying" is a contrivance invented by man to control it.
Stating the truth is not arrogant and not superiority. In this time and age we ned to tell the truth.
Aren't you atheists thankful that you were born in a country that has unlimited access to food? Rather than having to cross the Serengeti in hopes of killing something to feed your children that day?
you think those people are thankful to god that they have to cross a desert to get to their food??? i'm just fortunate my ancestors were smart enough to leave whatever place they were in in hopes of finding a better life somewhere. my family location has evolved just like each and every one of you have evolved in the past 15 billion years since the universe was created in the big bang – look it up, it's a fact: the big bang happened (3 kelvin background radiation – penzias and wilson won a nobel prize for their research).
Whenever family members pray before meals I just sit there and wait. Its kind of annoying how they want to make us all wait and let the food start to get called for some pointless saying but w/e. I understand that religions are made up as a way to help people who can't take the fact that we don't know the answers to certain questions. Personally, curiosity has not killed me and I wish Religious antics like prayer could be personal and not used in public situations.
100% agreed
Scott:
Yes Jesus prayed to His Father. The reason Jesus came to earth 2010 years ago and took human flesh is not only to reveal the real God and Himself as one in being with the father but to teach us through His words and examples. he prayed to teach us that we too should pray. He showed He is the God-Man who existed before the universe through His miracles. Not everything is written in the Bble as the Protestants claimed. Its in the last chapter last verse of John that not everything is written in the Bible. Catholics also have the Divine Oral Tradition that were preserved through the ages.
you have truly been brainwashed. pls provide one ounce of proof for anything you have written here – you can't. you might as well start praying to an imaginary teapot that grants magical wishes. good luck!
imaginary teapot;
The evidence is everywhere and all around you. You only need to open your mind, heart and soul to find the evidences. Take a journey to find Him. He said, Seek and you hall find, ask and it shall be given unto you .Knock and it shall be opened to you. Our hearts have doors and locks. The knobs are inside the heart. You are the only one who can open it and Incite Jesus into your heart. He is just waiting for you to open it an dlet Him in. Good luck in your journey. Hope you find what you are looking for. Peace my borhter.
ligaya – are you serious? do you have a brain? can you pls type something original and not just regurgitate what your parents and some guy who is molesting your kids has beat into your brain every sunday while you fork over 10% of your income so he can make his car payment?
Thumbs up!!!! : )
"Catholics also have the Divine Oral Tradition that were preserved through the ages"
Yse, and unfortunately they continue to practice it on children.
All religions require meditation and discipline. Funny, but that is also what is required to live a healthy lifestyle.
There is no so thing as "Christian-light." Either you believe everything the guy supposedly said (in both testaments)–no matter how homophobic, vengeful, xenophobic, petty or factually inaccurate–or nothing at all. I'm sick of reasonable, intelligent people justifying beliefs they know to be logically irrational and inconsistent with their own sense of morality by saying, "well, the bible was actually written by man and was purposefully left open to interpretation."
Do you really think an all powerful, all knowing, all loving God would go through the trouble of drafting a couple of books and then let the scriveners he dictated it to screw a couple of the parts up?
If you don't believe that God would turn an entire city to salt b/c some of the folks engaged there engaged in sodomy, then you don't believe it Christianity.
Actually, there is nothing wrong with a Christian admitting, "I don't understand everything in the Bible." I just do the best I can, like everyone else, but I am a Christian.
Well said. My favorite is when they say "well, Genesis was written to say it all started with a talking snake because the people were simple and wouldn't have understood the truth." Odd, that they only started to say that AFTER Darwin. Before that, it was literal.
What people choose to do before they eat food is their business, and the other atheists here bashing religion should keep that in mind. People have the right to believe in whatever they want to believe, and berating them because you think their beliefs are silly puts you on the same level as religious fundamentalists who believe you're going to hell because you don't belong to the right denomination, let alone the right religion.
Very, very good point – thank you. I am personally an atheist (emphasis on personally here), but because I live in a society with other people in it (as everyone else does), I respect those with different beliefs. Just because I don't believe what you believe doesn't mean I can't respect your right to it. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
I'm sorry, I don't respect them. If it is ok for their religion to judge me, then it's ok for me to believe that they are delusional twits who believe in something that is no more real than Goldilocks.
Valerie,
To say that yours is the only true religion is the definition of intolerance. Why don't you just fly a plane into a building and get it overwith?
The results of the vote are pretty encouraging. Almost 25% actively oppose praying or never think about it! These are great numbers and they are growing. Even ten years ago, the number of superstitious people out there would have been higher. To all the atheists on here, keep up the good work, we have seen some REAL progress in these last few years.
It is discouraging how many people voted "Always". In the year 2010 – centuries removed from scientific ignorance – people still believe in a supernatural being. Defies logic, I tell ya.
Santa, easter bunny, god...whatever you believe in, they didn't grow the food, buy the food, cook the food or serve the food. Why in the hell would I mumble magic words to myself for my food?
Is it so problematic to be thankful, even when you're not sure whom to thank? I'm sure that there's value to a little humility and recognition that we're not the highest power in the universe, not to mention gratitude that with all of the hungry people in the world, you are not among them.
So, the theory goes that you think silent thoguhts and an invisible sky-god reads your mind and is grateful that you thought of it. It simultaneously reads the minds of the millions of people who happen to be praying at any given time and records it all for later determining who gets to live happily ever after their deaths.
I think I'll skip that ritual, it seems a little simplistic and childish to me.
I do pray, but to an imaginary teapot that grants magical wishes and when I die it gives me all the stuff I was too lazy too lazy to work for while I was alive. I can't wait to have my mansion in the sky w/ streets that are paved w/ gold!!! What a waste of time. Religion is the biggest hoax in history and has killed way more people than it has "saved" and you can't prove any of it – faith is all you need. I'll sell you a broken down car for way more than it's worth, but you can't test drive beforehand – just have faith that it works. Keep wasting your time in church and praying before meals and maybe just maybe all your hopes and dreams will come true. Meanwhile, I'll just go out and work hard and be a good person w/out throwing 10% of my income at a "pastor" driving a Bentley while he molests my kids behind my back, but don't worry b/c I'll forgive him b/c it's what jesus would do.
I find it funny and a little pathetic how so many people can believe so passionately in this mythological BS. A teapot isn’t any more farfetched than any of the other organized religions out there.
RD wrote, "...you will be the first to be praying when you find yourself in need of a miracle to live..."
I have never found myself in need of prayer or a miracle. Neither in the Emergemncy Room when on the verge to death, nor on the battle field with gunfire and moartar fire going off all around me. Rather than waste my time praying, I will concentrate my time and energy into trying to do soemthing about the situation.
Good luck with that.
People who insist that atheists will repent at the last minute simply don't get it. "Repenting" would be impossible, in that we simply do not believe there is anything to repent to. Asking forgiveness from a god at death would be as silly to us as asking santa clause for one last gift.
Amen, brother! (Pun intended!) You can pray or you can do something that will actually do some good.
God is fake in my eyes. I absolutely refuse to pray. I don't even bow my head out of respect. You wouldn't pray for Satan if you didn't agree, right?
My prayer at holidays is this, when my family asks me:
"Dear Safeway, thank you for providing this delicious turkey and these yummy mashed potatos...and thank you to all the people who worked hard to get them to the stores, amen!"
Michael, first of all, I was not directing my comment towards you. Second, I didn't say prayer is all you need. Of course, in some situations you need to act & make something happen but I can assure you when you are in the ICU or ER with a tube down your throat, you better pray that we (medical personnel) know what we are doing or else! Sometimes, prayer is all you have and you better use it!
Maybe you haven't yet found yourself in one of those situations, but as someone once said, "There are no atheists in the foxholes."
I think it is embarrassing to hear Christains bicker over things like this. Which one of you know everything? You are boasting of your own righteousness; get over yourselves.
I think this sums it up: 'In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.'
Prayer is not about men and their mistakes, or their religious systems. Prayer is about God. Life is about God. I am sorrowful for those of you with such anger to God because of the actions of men. Don't look to men to prove God right or wrong. Those with unbelief expect Christians to be 'little models' and we are not. There is only One model. The rest of us are just sinners.
Amen! And I don't like how some people equate "sin" with "burning in hell forever." To me, sin is just, like, when I screw up. We all do. To think that one person's sin is less than another is delusional.
Do you feel that atheists will burn in hell forever?
I know it looks bad that "christians" bicker.. the problem is there is only one christianity all the others are imposters imitation. True Christianity has to contend with it. But when it does it must be respectful regardless. All the others fight..
I had McDonald's for lunch today....I'm really not that thankful.
Perhaps if you prayed more, you would not have to eat at McDonald's.
Matt, that is pretty damn funny.
...
Or, he could...
...you know,
...
...cook for himself? I mean, prayer really, absolutely, will not work. Cooking for himself will. It'll be a lot healthier, too - and cheaper!! I even find it entertaining to cook myself a really good meal, so I don't really consider it wasted time, either. I'll eat an easy ramen or chef boyardee can of ravioli/soup/whatev every once in awhile, but cooking is realistic, achievable action that would do infintely more than the apparently "limitless" power of prayer.
I am not understanding all the remarks but I will say that each person is entitled to his or her own opinion. In saying that, I am a christian and minister and one thing that I have learned from God is that I have no power to change their way of thinking. So those of you who are arguing back and forth trying to get someone to undestand your point, it is senseless. If you believe in God or not is entirely up to you but do not try to force your beliefs on anyone else. Jesus taught the people with love and compassion and never argued His point. He delivered the message and left the reading up to the person. So read the message as you will but I love you and God does too, no matter whether you pray before meals or not. "I'd rather live like there is a God and find that to be false than to live like there is no God and realize there is."
@GC1: well said, thank you. I'm all for a spirited debate, but I must say I'm disheartened by the amount of folks who use these forums to behave & speak in ways they would never do in person (hopefully). Let & let live – and be nice about it, dammit! ;-)
You know, the reason I don't say my views in person is because I'm terrified at the prospect of being shouted at by some offended nearby Christian. As much of the "victim complex" as Christians seem to exhibit (e.g. a "War on Christmas" - are you serious?? really?), you're still 85% of the population, and I've yet to be visited by atheist old ladies at 8:00 AM on Sunday, thank you very much (for waking me up from my evening of what would Christian-ly be described as "sin and debauchery").
...
Otherwise I'd be glad to openly state my disbelief in god in public...
Many question about GOD providing for those that don't know him, that only know him with their month only and provide for those that mock him. Jesus told the religious leaders they didn't know him. He also said if you love him you will keep his commandments. He also called for the destruction of peoples and even allowed the destruction of those that said he was their GOD because of their sins. He also said that in the last day the people would be wicked and he will destroy them. He is love for those that know him and keep his commandments but he is also a punishing GOD and a GOD of war to them that don't know him and do not keep his commandments.
..and if you had been raised a Hindu, you would believce something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT! Most humans are atheists about the VAST majority of Gods humanity has ever believed in. (And the vast majority of "their teachings"!) Those who don't believe in YOUR Christian/Jewish God have simply gone one god further...
Please, stop BELIEVING and start observing the world through a human lense, NOT a christian one, and actually THINK.
The whole world can do what it wishes but for me and my house we will serve the GOD of the Christian and Jews.
Amen to that Roy!
There is no god.
Sure there is. If you seek him, you will find him. That I can promise you.
@ Matt – Prove it (without offering something stupid like god can be found in a baby's smile).
@JS Dude, we can't even prove Einstein's theories, and that's pure math and physics! There is something more out there and you know it. Intuition. Empathy. Conscience. That is what guides us, whatever name we give it.
Yeah we can, the last 50+ years of physics are based on them. The nuclear bomb was based on theories of Einstein and others, and we have thousands of them.
@ Matt: Complete baloney. No specifics - just as religion never fails to fail to provide.
@ Adrienne: Wrong on all counts, sir. Have you ever calculated the force of a cannon based entirely on the distance that a ball of known weight travels after it is launched out? F=ma, a magical equation that works every time. The same is true of E=mc^2, it HAS been proven on countless occasions. How much time have you spent giving science a chance at explaining the universe? Have you looked only at science's claims? They don't attempt to hide anything - usually you can perform some of these experiments AT HOME to arrive at the same conclusions. They literally write extremely detailed, specific papers on how to build the experimental setup, how to measure, etc - you can test this yourself.
Or, you can simply read scientific texts. In any case, the entire tome of science is available at your fingertips, at the whim of a few clicks and keystrokes on the internet. Science doesn't know everything - nor does it purport to. But it's trying - it's trying via observation of what we can empirically observe, real things, things like rocks, cliffs, air, etc. God is not one of those things.
You clearly don't have children. Cause to witness a birth and share in the joys of raising a child – That's all the proof you need that HE does exist
Wrong!
I have two beautiful, intelligent, kind, caring children who I love very much. I was in the delivery room and witnessed both of thier births. They, as my wife and I are also athiest. We are all smart enough to know that some bearded robe toting boogeyman in the sky had nothing to do with it. I had sex with my wife. My sperm fertilized her egg. Presto, two children later we have a family. God did not creat jack squat. My wife and I did. I don't need any oudated regious dogma to guide me through life. My mother taught me most of what I need to know and I figured out the rest on my own.
I treat my fellow man better, and have done more for the less fortunate, than just about any religious person I know. All without the help or belief in some farsical super hero from outer space.
Collin; There is only the truth. There is only one truth. If there are many truths then that is not the truth. The problem in this age is relativism and individualism.
Anyway, the Bible says, "There is no God, says the fools"
the bible also say that its okay to kill infants and rape people as long as od says its okay
I think most women and men pray alot but very private, some everyday you never know what is in a person heart. You don't need lunch or at a church to pray. Most true prayer are very private
Very true!
Why isn't there a simple "no" response?
What do you do when you're a guest at a religious person's house for dinner?
I sit respectfully and quietly while they pray.
two young children was staying a few days with thier uncle in the backwoods, at dinner time the uncle cooked the dinner an set the table and they sat down to eat, the uncle over loaded his plate and started shoveling food in and the two small children said uncle we say something before we eat, and the uncle stopped for a minute and said , go ahead kids say anything you want , you can not hurt my stomach,
The comments highlight the schism that still exists between Catholic and Protestant, even though so many Americans are not conscious of it. A Protestant can't say "Your Catholic rules are legalistic and unnecessary" because they are necessary if you're Catholic. And a Catholic can't say "Your informal Protestant prayers are missing the mark" because that's the way Prods interpret the Bible. Religion is lame.
If I may, "religion" encompasses more than Catholics and Protestants.
You're right...Catholics, Protestants, Heretics.
Yes, that was a blanket statement. All religion is lame.
Pray in private and mean what you pray! Public displays of prayer are usually for the benefit of those around watching not to God.
Don't pray or thank God for material things or even food. Pray for the spiritual strength to be a good human being and to help your brothers and sisters here on earth.
God does not bless us with material things. We gain these through social conformity and hard work. To think that God blesses us with material things implies that those who have nothing are undeserving and somehow evil.
Brian, Very good comment, you are a true believer. The world today is full of want to be's. Thanks for your comment and may God bless you. I pray every day to let me help by fellow man in some way
Awesome use of the "No True Scotsman" argument there.
I work in ICU and ER, I see prayers being answered every day!! Chris D & Guy, you will be the first to be praying when you find yourself in need of a miracle to live & you know what, GOD will answer your prayer!!
Wow, all those people prayed to get sick or injured where they'd have to be taken to the hospital? Bunch of masochists you religious folk.
@RD: no disrespect, but I'm afraid you're wrong on that one (at least about me). I've been in plenty of sticky situations, up to and including those where my life was on the line, and have never – not once – resorted to praying.
Right there with you, Chris D. It never even crossed my mind when my life was on the line.
what about 9/11 and those people that were praying on those airplanes, praying in those burning buildings, praying for their families that were on those planes and in those burning buildings??? where was god when all that was going on? what about the crusades and inquisition when a countless number of people were being killed? do you think they were praying and their families were praying for them? what about the catholic priests and all lthe children they molested? do you think those kids were praying for it to stop and did that work? god's will???? why did even one child have to be molested for it to be god's will? it didn't really seem to work out too well for any of them. the truth is that this is all some fantasy many people have created just to get them through the day and it has turned into ritualistic and cult-like behavior.
IT- How do you know all those people were praying, maybe they weren't praying, so you have no validity to your comment, that was a shallow remark. Do u know how many were praying?? I willing to bet you don't. By reading this blog, there are alot you who do not pray. People pray to GOD for different things.
I always pray and I try to focus on the words and if I don't get the focus I repeat the prayer over and over until I do get focus – then I thank God for his blessings because all of us owe everything we are and all that we could be to God – blessed be God forever -Jesus Mary and Joseph save Souls
It's okay to pray, just like it's okay to compplain. Nothing really changes.
Tony, you can complain. God takes all prayers and when you pray through Christ Jesus; Thank Him for your burden, for it is then that you know that He truly loves you and wants you to ask Him to take that burden.
congrats on saying nothing.
What does that even mean? When do I get to even confirm the existence of this guy that supposedly loves me so much?
this is not about god, it's about "jesus in your face, whether you like it or not" attitude.
Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer
sounds like someone's b.s. to me.
Nothing is more powerful than prayer.
Your God would rather you pray for things to happen, rather than to go out there and make it happen for yourself?
If prayer is so powerful, shouldn't there be zero unhappy Christians and countless unhappy atheists?
Guy I hate to say it but this world has you completely blinded. Don't you realize that without the fundemental values expressed in Jewish and Christian faiths we would utterly destroy our world in a very short period of time. Without the basic rules God gave us in the Ten Commandments we would not have a measure of what is wrong and right. If you want to see this you can look it up in any Christian Bible. Especially read the last part of this verse.
Romans Chapter 5 Verses 12 and 13. "12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
And Guy in case you don't know what sin is, here is a definition from Webster's Dictionary. 2 a : transgression of the law of God b : a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God.
Chris, that's a pretty good try. However, that portion is talking about how Christ died for our sins. Not about lawlessness. The best way to teach Guy, or anyone is Christ's answer to anothers rebuke "As I have loved you, so must you Love one another, even if he should slap you, turn thy cheek and offer the other".
Hi Bob. Thanks for the comment! Your point is understood but the point I was trying to make was that in this verse Paul is saying that if we didn't have the law then how would we know that we were sinning in the first place. There would be no measure for unrighteous behavior. Although, Christ paid the price for evryone's sin. I just hope many of these guys wake up and accept the gift.
Chris, you sadly misguided and brainwashed fool. There are atheists ALL AROUND YOU. Interestingly, they are not "utterly destroying our world" because they don't blindly follow your precious 10 Commandments. Indeed, they make up disproportionaly less crimals than "christians" do. Check out the prison statistics of ANY state! Look at the bloody mess in the middle east, or the farcical Blackwater CEO! Perhaps it's because atheists think for themselves and don't blindly follow what ever their leaders interpretation of the bible tells them to... It is people like you who will joyfully be singing whilst you drag the rest of us into your mire of intolerance and ignorance. Please go back to the 12th century where your ideas might actually make sense...
Hope you have knee pads ready!!!
Romans 14:11
11 It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "
You can be ethical and not subscribe to Judeo Christian beliefs.
In my view we are all human beings. This is the only life we have. I am responsible for my own actions.
I have no right to harm another human being, who is equal to me in every way. I am no better than anybody else. I try to be a good person because it makes me happy to make the lives of my fellow man better, not because I believe I will be rewarded in the afterlife. If I do wrong and hurt somebody, I need to swallow my pride and apologize to that person, and I need to do everything within my power to make it right. If I cannot make it right, I need to accept that my actions were wrong, accept the consequences and learn never to do that action again.
My rather longwinded point is this:
If you have your beliefs, they are not hurting anybody and they make you happy, keep your beliefs. However, understand that every human being lives a unique life and their perspective is colored by their individual experiances. You are not better than anybody else for your beliefs and nobody is better than you. We need to start focusing on what we all have in common and stop nitpicking every little thing that divides us.
Perfectly said, thank you. Your comment should really be the end of this debate, as it leaves room for everyone to just do their thing, as it should be.
you have incredible writing skills! And I agree 100% with everything you said. I do not follow any one particular religion, but I do believe in God. I make it a point to be thankful for everything that I have been given.
I know way too many so called "religious" people who pray everyday, but are not clean on the inside. They are unethical, evil, etc. What is the point of being a "religious" person if that is what you are going to do after your 2 minutes of prayer or however long worship, etc.
And like you said, we are all connected, but it is these religious labels, race, etc. that disconnects from the very essence of what is humanity.
YOU SAID: You can be ethical and not subscribe to Judeo Christian beliefs.
I liked what you said (in part) ... but it is a post-modernist view. You are to do good to, and for others; you should forgive, and also ask for forgiveness when you wrong someone. But to say you can be ethical, and 'not subscribe' to Judeo Christian beliefs, is WRONG; Let me explain:
See, you must have a 'basis' for your 'so-called' goodness ... it is either based on a standard for goodness, as defined by other fellow human beings; or, it is based only on God's Holy Standards, and 'not' mankinds standards. If you are good based on mankinds standards, you WILL miss the mark set by God the Father, through His Son Jesus (who is the very basis for all Judeo CHRISTian beliefs); and missing 'that' mark, will leave you separated from God the Father, who has already set 'The Standard' to follow ... and that is the 'whole' of Judeo CHRISTian beliefs.
Judeo CHRISTian beliefs are based on, and rooted in, Jesus as the Christ, as the Son of the Living God, the ONLY Savior of the world; as God Himself. If that escapes any man (or woman), they will end up separated from the God of Heaven. So, if people want to say, "There are 'OTHER WAYS' to Heaven, they are ansolutely WRONG." Jesus IS the ONLY WAY to God's Heaven.
If a person wants to remain in 'rebellion' to what God the Father has already instituted, via Jesus; then, they are denying what the Father has stated; and thus, upon your death, you will be asked only two questions: "What did you do with the knowledge I gave to ALL humanity (via My Holy Spirit dictated to man, Bible) about My Son, Jesus; and, did you obey what I, the Father, made known to you about Him?
If your answer is not based on that, I guarantee you, that (based) on the word of God, you WILL BE excorted off the premises immediately.
There is No Other Way but Jesus; and, there is no goodness, unless it's based 'on' Jesus; and there is no other belief in Jesus, other than 'through' Judeo Christian beliefs. Christianity owes it's knowledge of God to the Jews (Jesus was a Jew); thus, since Jesus is the CHRIST (the Messiah) ... then, Judeo Christian beliefs are not only 'above' all 'other' beliefs ... they are your ONLY way to the very Heaven everyone [thinks] they are [all] going to go to, regardless of what they [chose] to believe here on earth ... that's simply NOT TRUE. ONE God, ONE Way, ONE Heaven ... and since Jesus IS GOD (He said so); then, it's HIS Heaven, and HIS Way as well.
John,
I do not fear eternal separation from something I do not believe exists.
I merely wish to live my life, make the world a little brighter for my fellow human beings and leave it a little better for the genarations that come after me.
It is my belief that I will end when my body fails me. I have accepted this fate.
If those are your beliefs and they make you happy, keep them. However you have no right to tell me that I am wrong.
I hope you live to see many happy and fruitful days during your time on this planet.
Dude, that book was written by human beings over the course of hundreds of years in a totally different language. It was then kept from the people, written in a language that only the upper class and clergy knew how to speak. It also began in a time when we didn't know the first thing about the world around us.
I'm sorry you think that my atheism leads to an unfulfilling, unhappy life that's doomed to work to bring down the rest of society... but if you think that, you're sorely mistaken. I will be good to my fellow human beings because I, a fellow human being to my fellow human beings, would not like my fellow human beings doing evil to me. Thus, as I am aware that my fellow human beings are having a similar sober perspective on the world at large as I do, I would not do them harm.
They would feel pain as I would feel pain.
Their loved ones would feel pain as my loved ones would feel pain.
Thus, I will not murder. I will not steal. I will not hurt, harm or maim. Why? Because you're a human being, and I sympathize with the quantifiably negative impact on your life that these actions have against you. That's all I need to act in a good-hearted way.
But that's cool, judge me because Glenn Beck has interpreted history for you to suggest that it has been the proponents of non-belief that have caused social collapse and wanton destruction.
No grace before meals. My partner and I are atheists.
I will sit quietly if other people are saying grace, but I will not bow my head, hold hands or participate in any way. I will not start eating until others at the table start eating, not out of respect for the prayer, but because it is simply good manners to do so.
Unfortunately you are missing life's best gift. Do you really think that your years on Earth is all that there is? If it was, then this life would be totally pointless.
Really Matt? Pointless? Your life is pointless, the relationships you forge, what you accomplish? Your KIDS are pointless? I'm am an atheist, and the point is pretty simple: enjoy the time you have. The idea that life is pointless without a deity to believe, that is actually kind of a horrible thing to thjink.
I could argue that you are missing a great gift. I understand the gravity of every moment that passes. Every moment of my life is precious and filled with wonder. One of the reasons it is so precious to me is because I know one day it will end.
How you choose to live your life is your choice. Just promise me that you will smile, know joy and live in wonder. Peace.
So only being able to live forever gives a life meaning? What a fucking joke
I see no need to talk to imaginary friends, be it to give thanks for food or any other reason. I work hard to earn the money to buy my food, I don't have to thank a mythological sky daddy for it.
It sounds like a lot of folks can't agree about how to pray, who to pray to and which religion is best. Let's settle it by having a religious war! Most wars start this way and that's why I say no to all organized religions. Lets keep God personal, people.
Agreed!
Praise the Lord and eat
Why would you thank god for something you did yourself? "god" doesn't provide for me, I provide for me, and my family. I guess if god is picking up the check I would thank him, but that hasn't happened yet.
LOL – brilliant!
Nasa Diyos ang awa, nasa tao ang gawa. Roughly translated in English, Its from God the mercy its from men the labor.
I see praying before the meal is a way to say thank you to God at least 3 times a day when we should be thanking him ALL DAY... prayer is how we communicate with God and it doesn't have to be anything elaborate...it doesn't matter if your prayer is short or a big elaborate thanksgiving dinner prayer...its how you say thanks for your blessings!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think the picture they put up depicts a bunch of people wanting to let the whole mall know how great and "better than" they are because they are praying before the meal.... What's the point in making a big display of that. GAG ME.
"Dear Universe -
Please bless this food and thank you for feeding me. I pray for those who are suffering, that you comfort them. And I pray for those who are hungry, that you feed them. Please protect my family and friends. Amen."
I have said this prayer with many of my friends, Hipsters, some of 'em. They love it and the 'amens' that follow are heartfelt. I am happy to be thankful for what I've been given. I deserve a lot less.
And, just since I'm writing, praying over food "santifies" it .... you don't know what someone was thinking when they cooked for you, or maybe the Energy of the animal when it died. I don't mean to open a debate on vegetarians ... I just try to be consciencious about my choices, fish over beef, say.
I really liked the comments here though. Nice.
"Santifies"? – Go away, Palin!
I like how the lady's already eaten her meal and is just now praying. What a joke.
have you even taken into consideration that just possibly a photograpgher saw them pray before there meal which gave them the idea for the story then asked them to pray for the photo?
More value in washing your hands.
I pray before meals and all throughout the day whenever i have a need. I thank God for everything He has done for me. If God doesnt exist then who determined whats considered right and wrong? If God doesnt exist then there is no good and evil? It rains on the just and the unjust. I had a bad injury before i was saved and lost out on a career that i had but if that hadnt happened i wouldnt have married my now wife and gotten saved. God has a plan, He always does wether people want to believe in Him or not. Focus on Christ crucafied and Gods word and stop worrying so much about demonitation. Alot of Christians have lost the focul point and need to remember.
@Adam: coincidenally enough, with respect to your comment about who determined what's considered right & wrong, I saw this article in the NY Times today: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/23/opinion/23brooks.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=print. Not trying to be argumentative or anything, only that there is some empirical evidence out there that answers your question.
I totally agree Adam....
I am in agreement with the other commentors, Catholics are "christians" just like the rest of us who are saved. They are just another denomination of the entire faith. God wants to have the glory and praise and the bible is clear about that. So no matter what church or denomination you belong to, give God his just propers..
Blessings...
Derek
I am guessing that's what glory holes are for, to say grace?
Nice Guy you are not a nice guy and that is very disrepectful comment to God. I hope you find Him soon.
Church doesnt make you into a nice person.
It's too easy...
P.S. praying for every single meal, it seems kinda white trash to me.
That's racist and classist.
Half the reason I pray is to show my 3 year old daughter that we should be thankful for each and every thing we have. That food is not a privilege, but a blessing. That goes for everything – Our health, our friends and family, our cars, homes and jobs. None of these are due to us, and each one should be reflected upon and appreciated, if only just for 20 seconds a day during mealtime. To not acknowledge all that we’ve been given, in anyway shape or form, is just arrogance.
I’m also curios how many of you non-believers will feel the same in your final years, when some of us may be lying in a hospital room waiting to die. As the saying goes, you don’t find many atheists in a foxholes
By the way....I'm not to be confused with the other "Chris" posting here.
I agree with Chris. I am thankful everyday for every single thing that I am given. Also, to the atheists – I respect your decision to not believe in God, but don't try to impose your views on others. You will never truly understand the power of Prayer and faith unless you have personally experienced the power of Prayer. There is something out there that is greater than you and I, and our petty worries. And don't try to tell us that we are ignorant, and God takes us away from rational thought. I have a biochemistry degree from university and am currently in pharmacy school. But despite my extensive science background, I have had many instances in my life that a Higher Power has saved my life. You wouldn't understand unless you experience it for yourself.
I hope you don't mean to imply that one can only be grateful for what they have if they believe that a higher power gave it to them, and if they don't then they're arrogant....I thought Christians weren't supposed to be judgemental, isn't that your God's job?
Wow VT. You start off nice enough by saying you hope he wasn't implying something about non-believers. Then you totally do a 180 and decide that he was implying exactly that, and completely trash his God while assuming that he is judgemental. All the man said was that his children should be grateful for all good things that come their way. Perhaps he meant if they didn't show thanks for their good fortune, they would turn into arrogant little brats. Take a chill pill.
"and completely trash his God while assuming that he is judgemental"
God is judgemental. That is why they call it judgement day. There are about a zillion passages in the bible that mentions judgement. So where is this notion that God may somehow be nonjudgemental coming from?
"Dear Lord, although they are your creatures too, please don't let there be any Salmonella in our food"
(fast food restaurant prayer)
I have always thought that public prayers on personal matters were more for the world to see than for the Lord to hear.
"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward." Matthew 6:5
I think you missed the point. Even Jesus prayed in public. It's about your motivation. If you're praying in public to be seen, then there's your reward. But "being seen" isn't the only reason people pray in public.
I don't personally because I don't believe in god, but if I'm eating with others who do, I bow my head out of respect for my dining companions. I didn't pick "I actively refuse" because I don't object to the practice as long as it means something to the people doing it.
thats nice that you are so respectful when others do it. it bugs me when ppl are so negative about it...like if you dont want to do it, dont do it...but dont be so rude..
I refuse to bow my head or close my eyes. Besides, if everyone else is bowing their heads and closing their eyes, then they can't see that I'm not, right? So there should be no problem with a person actively refusing to do it.
I'm with Guy on this one. I chose "actively refuse" because I won't be pressured into doing something I don't believe in, no matter the setting. In my opinion, to do so would represent a capitulation of my beliefs (or lack thereof in this case). That said, I would certainly never try to stop someone from praying before a meal – even if it was at my house for a meal I paid for & prepared – if that's what they believe in.
I here ya, guy. The only man I would ever bow my head before is my father, because he earned. Other than that, I bow to no one.
Very nice of you...wish there were more like you.
I agree, I dont "actively" not do it, that would require me actually thinking about it and making a choice not to do it like Im rebelling. I forgot about grace completely until this article.
i pray before every meal. and it differs but i always give thanks for being able to eat when im hungry and whatnot...
Your prayers have greater meaning and value than repeating what someone else wrote hundreds of yrs ago.
yah my grandparents-in laws have apparentlybeen saying the same prayer that they have been saying for like 40 years or whatever...but they only say it on holiday meals. it find it annoying and not very heartfelt
Luke 11:2–4
And he said to them, "When you pray, say: 'Father, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come. Give us each day our daily bread, and forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation."
Willy I guess we can throw out the Lord's own prayer as well as the Hail! Mary...and yes, that was taught in the Bible. It started with Gabriels' Visitation to Our Lady. "Hail! Mary, full of grace!, the LORD is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb!." -even on bended knee to her, because GOD told him so.
"When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”
– Stephen Roberts
"For I so loved the world that I sacrificed Myself to Myself to appease My anger at My own creation."
-God
"You do not need the Bible to justify love, but no better tool has been invented to justify hate." – Richard A. Weatherwax
"Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives ravished."
Isaiah 13:16
My favorite Biblical passage. :)
The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully. – Richard Dawkins
I find it interesting becuse its stated that Hes unjust but it would be just today if someone broke the law to punish them same as in Old Testiment which would intern make God just.
Guy,
Consider this post an honor because I have NEVER left a post on a blog, website, etc before. I've never felt it necessary to project my opinions on the cyber world. But you are worth it..
I have never met a more cynical, bitter person in my life. I hope life gives you all that you are looking for, whatever that may be and whoever, whatever brings some ounce of joy into your life.
God bless,
Lauren
A little food for thought:
“I have learnt that what you look for, you will find. If you are a cynic, there is a lot to be cynical about. If you want to be a skeptic, there is plenty to be skeptical about. If you want to be a pessimist, there is plenty to be pessimistic about. What you look for, you will find.”
Rob Bell
Guy,
I must also post to you – you are right on with everything I have read. The hilarious part is that people think that your view make you unhappy or cynical.
Although there are some other bible passages I like better. I prefer the ones that make claims like the earth being flat, etc.
@MR: if you ever run for office, you've got my vote!
Unless he runs for office in Arizona, Maryland, Massachusetts, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Tennessee, or Texas, because those states require belief in a higher power to serve public office.
MR–However, GOD is the same person who on our judgement day is going to be the supreme person whom that person is going to have to answer to. And he can't say there wasn't any warnings or examples. Christ taught us "Not everyone will make it into heaven."
And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence. – Bertrand Russell
Bob, if there is a God, I have to believe that on judgment day he will be more concerned with my actions and whether or not I was a good person, and not as concerned with whether I prayed before eating my ho-ho. If God is the kind of vain, petty person that is more concerned with whether I acknowledge him every day than with the impact I leave on the world, I don't really care what he thinks.
MR, thanks for the great quote. A concise statement of my own beliefs.
Saying grace is pointless. And actually kind of egotistical. "Thank you, Lord, for giving my family 10 turkeys, 8 pounds of mashed potatoes, two gallons of gravy, two bowls of corn and beans, and all of this other food that could feed an entire family in Africa for a month. Thank you for letting US have this food and eat all of it tonight and get fat."
i want to know how much food YOU send to Africa? I know – ZERO...
Who Else?
Mouth breather. Guy isn't the one thanking a fairy tale for food. How does whether he sends food to Africa have anything to do with the hypocricy of thanking a fairy tale for something that that fairy tale has obvioiusly chosen to not do for someone else.
If you trust that God is your provider and you are thankful for His provision of the food you are about to eat, shouldn't you say thank you?
I didn't pray before I ate when I was a kid and catholic, so I certainly don't know. Like I tell people who eat at my house, if you want to pray to someone, pray to me, because I put that food on the table.
Well said sir.
"Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him." Deuteronomy 4:35
very original thought here. glad you were able to use your brainwashed brain to type something that has already been written.
Seriously. That's a phrase that's been unchanged, in a book, for HUNDREDS* OF YEARS.
You're as original as it gets, man. Show the world THAT free mind!
* Thousands, if you actually believe the meaning of the book hasn't changed through multiple translations, omissions, etc.
a family member of mine quickly repeats the same tired old lines before every dinner. I never see her giving thanks before breakfast or lunch, or when eating out. To me anything not from the heart is just so much mumbo jumbo.........meaningless. Also, what if you are not Christian? Does giving thanks before a meal have less value to the Deity?
I don't pray before meals, but I am grateful for every meal. I practice what most people do not...eating slowly...chewing my food many times over as to really get the flavor as to aid in digestion. Mindful eating is where it's at.
I also imagine the best way really give thanks at meal time is to eat locally farmed and produced food....thus helping you brother and sister who grow that food for you and your family.
But then again, most people do not slow their lives down long enough to actually explore this option of eating.
The faithful are very good at giving thanks for the food that sustains them. I would encourage them and everyone to grow in awareness of where they're food comes from and how it is produced and to take an active role as good stewards of the earth and promoters of human rights in labor.
*their
America is one of the more religious nations, and also one of the nations that exploits third-world countries (and often its own workers) under the prospect of capitalism. I don't lose sleep over this, but it is hilarious for religious people to say that the faithful are grateful for where their food came from and respect human rights, etc., when one of the more religious nations is exploiting a bunch of third-world countries just so we can eat a lot more.
Guy Then that needs to change.
And I'm sure praying will change it.
Prayer works to change the disposition of the one who prays – if it's the right kind of prayer, so yes, prayer may call them to action.
It's not a matter of a faith dictating it. It's just what some people do – a good way make sure praying doesn't get overlooked or just habit.
That's what's wrong with this country today, not enough prayer period, let alone before you eat. But I will give thanks at ALL times, and his words will continuley be in my mouth. God Bless America, my home sweet home.
Considering the rate at which prayers are answered, which is no better than praying the Spaghetti Monster, or not praying at all, I'd say they are a complete waste of time. I wish people used that time to do something useful and productive for their fellow human beings instead.
I agree, praying is a way of feeling useful while doing nothing-a way to ease guilt.
prayers are answered according to the faith of that person. they arent all answered right away or the world would be a perfect place, but its not supposed to be.
The world could be a lot closer to a perfect place is people got off their butts and started doing something productive instead of praying to nothing.
"Guy"- if you really do believe that people are praying to nothing, its not like they are doing a bad thing so whats it to ya?
The act of praying to nothing is not nothing in itself. By praying to nothing and believing that it is actually something that wants you to do bad things to certain people, you are doing something bad. Praying by itself is nothing at face value, sure, but that's also primarily the reason why I suggested people get off their butts and do something productive. Because doing something productive rather than praying has a better chance of making the world closer to perfection.
i dont really know what youve been looking up about god..but praying to him certainly doesnt want to "make" ppl do bad things. and u said "ppl need to get off their buts ..." its not like praying takes that long anyways.. so its not "wasting" anymore time than ppl waste having comment fights on a cnn website post lol....
People who pray multiple times a day waste time. People who pray are in general probably wasting time with other religious activities (like Church - before you mention how a church can do good things, there was a CNN article a few days ago about how the congregation's tithes paid for a giant house and utilities for the pastor; there are better ways to spend that money). And nearly every religion's god has its followers do something mean to somebody else in the name of holy righteousness ("God hates fags", "kill the infidels", etc.).
Also I'm on lunch, so nyah to you!
Self-righteous WIN!
Nothing fails like prayer
Penne,
That is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.
I AGREE! I think praying is completely selfish. It is an attempt to make yourself feel better without ever having to ACTUALLY do anything.
You think that what is wrong with the country is not ENOUGH prayer?? I would counter that by saying that prayer is at best, useless,and at worst, damaging.
By saying that you will "pray" for something you make yourself feel better by thinking that you're doing something helpful. In reality, you're actively refraining from "doing" anything. Don't pray for the people without food, give to a food bank. It will be a lot more effective than simply "thinking" about it... or sending some sort of psychic message to god.
apparently the lady on the right forgot before the meal... her styrofoam food container is empty....
haha nice catch
That is too funny about the lady's tray on the right being empty and now she is praying. I wouldn't have caught that! LOL! As for me I was raised Catholic and now I am Baptist. Too much mindless repetition in the Catholic faith and a lot of do as we tell you and do not ask questions. I felt like a mindless zombie saying the same prayers over and over again. Prayers of thanks and all prayers should be prayed with heart.
yeah, I noticed that too. :-) nice staged photoshoot in the CNN cafeteria. (not that there is any problem with that, just funny)
Sometimes CNN Images works in mysterious ways!
Actually not staged - it was at the food court at the CNN Center in Atlanta, and people gathered to watch the memorial service for Michael Jackson in 2009.
Who doesn't love a good backstory?
As long as one give HIM some kind of thanks and praise. Whether it be the same each and every occassion or it differs should not matter. HE knows whats in ones heart.
Why the "HE"? Does God have a penis?
what if i'm an atheist?
Then I guess you don't.
what if you are? then you don't pray... good for you. i hate how atheists need to let everyone know at all times they are atheists... they can't just stay out of the conversation when it has nothing to do with them.
I hate how Christians need to let everyone know at all times they are Christians... they can't just stay out of the conversation when it has nothing to do with them.
I hate how Christians and other religious people need to constantly have their religious symbols emblazoned all across the place. 10 Commandments don't belong in front of a state building. "In God We Trust" or "Under God" do not belong on government currency or pledges to the country (they didn't start off there anyhow).
I'm tired of religious people being such hypocrites. You can make fun of anything, but woe be to he who picks on religion.
I hate everyone.
Not really. Just keeping the conversation going...
Some people love to debate :( It's human nature. Pointless to argue because your faith will not be moved. So don't let words ruin your day. Just continue to pray for those in the dark. God bless.
Check the last option. I'd say that's squarely directed at atheists.
i've never really known an atheist to judge people for believing in god – they just say whatever makes you happy. on the other hand, religious zealots feel the need to judge everyone who does not say they believe whatever that person believes – which is exactly what you are NOT supposed to do, but i guess that goes along w/ the hypocritical nature of religion in general. atheists just go on about their business and religious idiots get all in your business. i've never seen an atheist w/ a sign on the street trying to convert people who claim to be religious into becoming atheists – it's always the other way around. i guess that is what cults do, they try to recruit other followers so they don't feel so silly about themselves and all of their ridiculous behavior.
"i've never really known an atheist to judge people for believing in god"
I do. I have absolutely no problem judging anyone who believes the fabled boogeyman. This from another post I made on this subject-
"Quite frankly, I consider myself completely morally and intellectually superior to you. Your life is centered around bronze age dogma developed by people who believed the world was flat and the sun circled the earth. These nearly neaderthals came up with this misogynistic homophobic collection of fables and used it to stifle human development for nearly two thousand years. If you live your life based on the concept that these ignorant intellectually challenged cavemen who came up with these stories somehow had all the answers, then I believe you are intellectually and morally bankrupt. I live my life based on modern 21st century humanistic principles. You live yours based on outdated 1st century myth. And even worse, you use your quaint fictional collection of bedtime stories to openly descriminate against people"
I'm agnostic, not athiest but I feel qualified to speak to this. You complain about athiests always having to point out that they're athiests. Have you never noticed all of the cars with the stupid little fish on the trunk or the WWJD t-shirts or the crusifix necklaces or the God bless you's after someone sneezes or the religious slogans on our money and on and on and on.... How dare you scold the non-religious for identifyig themselves in a world overflowing with superstitious mumbo-jumbo and religious fanatics constantly asking if we've been saved and huge malls devoted to one or another only true religion. How hypocritical can a person be?
@Joe
You made me smile =]
"in the last days there will be scoffer"s...they are the ones creating divisions among you" Jude vs.17-23, "They live by 'natural instinct' because they do not have God's Spirit in them." They have not been called. This is a huge thing people don't get, God chooses us, not the other way around. When you find yourself finally understanding The Word,(which can be difficult)and having your questions and mysteries answered, that's when you know you've been chosen. Seek, knock, and ask....you"ll find, the door will be opened, and it will be added unto you.:) Maybe atheists haven't been called yet, or there are always the children of the prince of this world,,,and we know they don't want to understand or know th e truth. I can only imagine they want to join the conversation hoping we will let in doubt & fear. Where there is doubt and fear, faith can and will NOT be. Satan knows this. He will use any thing or any body to steal us away. God opens our eyes and ears, He sends his Holy Spirit with gifts of knowledge, understanding, keys to the parables, etc. Try to forgive and pray for those who blaspheme God and Jesus. Your faithful prayers in Jesus' name can move mountains, heal the sick, and save souls. However, prayers without real faith are powerless and achieve nothing.
spins: You could thank the manufacturer of said food, the shipping company, the store that carried the product, and if appropriate, the chef and waitress.
I agree, it may be best to include everyopne if you're going to give thanks.
I agree that phrase 1 is flawed. There should be another option, I pray from the heart and each prayer differs.
Exactly
There are so many people in the world who are starving and sick. When I sit down to eat I like to give thanks for what I have been blessed with.
Amen !!!!!
Do you also thank the same god that supposedly put food on YOUR table for NOT putting food on the table of millions of starving children? Is that the god you thank?
Who makes the rain come, the sun to shine and the crops to grow? If you say everything in the world came to be just by chance you contradict one of the main rules of science and that is everything left to itself goes to disorder not order. Science proves there has to be a God who made the rules for science to follow.
Since when is that a rule of science? or did you learn that one from your pastor?
Mwake you are right. If you clean your room, wait a few weeks. Does it become orderly or fall to disorder, so that you have to clean it again? It's a natural thing.
Sy2502 God does put food at the tables of the starving every day – with our hands. Now they need yours.
What does that even mean? God put food on our table with our hands? That makes no sense (and also questions the Christian notion of free will). But Sys was asking about OTHER people's tables. Or maybe even unfortunate people who had their hands cut off by religious fundamentalists. Good luck putting food on those tables with those hands!
Guy Every day, starving people are saved from the brink of starvation because good people worked to feed them. When cynical people complain about suffering and do nothing, it means they aren't working hard enough, and human beings will die.
Yes, good *people* help those who are starving. God does not.
Im sure the millions of people that die of starvation because they cant grow crops in a barren wasteland agree.
God puts food on your table: wow, how kind!
God starves billions: it's the Christian thing to do, helping them.
Sidestepping of the issue in this case is better than any I've ever seen. Bravo, Christian weasels
Then we might at as well get rid of our laws and look out for number one. forget the others and pray for the person's ruination!
Do you really? Every single time? There seems to be a bunch of liars here. I live in a conservative city and I NEVER see people saying grace and when I go out to eat in groups NOBODY says grace. I only ever see grace at family dinners.
Judging by the poll almost 50% of people say some form of grace at every meal. Ya right. I think people are lying to themselves instead of being honest.
Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it's not happening.
Fortunately that was my first impression when I saw the results....someone is not telling the truth.
am of the belief to give thanks in all things.
Same here Matt. I also thank the Almighty along with Jesus Christ in mind for my job, good health and good food. Many people would love the bountiful food that we have in our country.
Matt, then while you're at it, (giving thanks) pray for those other people.
nice survey, but it is flawed, the bible teaches us not pray in vain repetitions, so question 1 should be phased differently.
"Bless us, oh Lord, and these thine gifts which we are about to receive, from thy bounty, thru Christ, or Lord, Amen."
Catholic prayer before meals. Said every time. True Church of Jesus Christ, not some knock off.
God Bless!
Valeire, that's really sad. Did you really have to make it a "Catholic" thing and attempt to invalidate the prayers of other belivers? You are a good example of why so many non-believers don't want anything to do with church. They see stuff like that and instead of seeing the love of Christ, they see bickering, competition, and legalistic rules. Shame on you.
Amen
Matt259- not everyone wants to hear the truth. I only spoke the truth. So please don't make it to be something it isn't.
I'm a Catholic and I agree with Matt. There's no right or wrong way to be thankful, just as long as you are.
Valerie, the fact that you included that last sentence in your original post reveals your heart. I have no desire to debate your beliefs about the Catholic church, but I would think your number-one priority should be showing the love of Christ to non-beleivers (which is what HE called us to do). Not claiming superiority.
Valerie, the truth is that you're an idiot. Amen.
Your little prayer is absolutely nowhere in the Bible. If you wish to grab some words from another source then you must accept that they are not of g-d. Of course even if they were in the Bible they're still man made and you're still an idiot.
is that the Prayer of the Self Righteous?
Amen! Valerie. In Nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spirtu Sancti.
very sad commentary on how mechanical you seem to view faith, Valerie. Prayer is part of a relationship to a Father that provides, not a pious rote ritual. That's what to me Catholicism became and why 30 years ago I walked from it .. to a real relationship with my God in Christ by the Spirit.
"Bless us, oh Lord, and these thine Big 'N Tasty Combo which we are about to receive, from thy factory to thine artery, thru Christ, or Lord, Amen." Seems more appropriate.
The Bible, does, however, say that the "perfect prayer" is: Our Father, who art in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name, thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day, our daily bread and FORGIVE US OUR TRESPASSES as we FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASS AGAINST US...
So in Valerie's defense, there is a repetitive prayer. That was her point. There was absolutely no need for anyone to call her an idiot.
Look into your own heart, do you like what you see?
This is exactly what atheists like me eat up. Thanks Val.
BTW, I didn't know Jesus prayed. Doesn't seem to make sense to me. If Jesus is Lord, who is he praying to?
Bunch of sheep, you are. Question your faith. Don't be scared. God surely won't condemn you for asking very obvious questions, will he? Once you get over that fear, you'll finally be free to think for yourselves. It's quite liberating.
Valerie and Adrienne seem to disagree about which prayer is the right one, so which one do you have to say to be a true christian and which one is the knock-off?
Catholic attitudes remind me of American attitudes. Both think they are the only ones who really count. Yet both are so terribly wrong.
And Jesus said "No one comes to the Father except through me." Prayers to saints are not prayers at all.
Valerie,
To say that yours is the only true religion is the definition of intolerance. Why don't you just fly a plane into a building and get it overwith?
"Valerie and Adrienne seem to disagree about which prayer is the right one, so which one do you have to say to be a true christian and which one is the knock-off?"
The one true prayer is the one taught to us by Jesus himself, and quoted by Adrienne. It is in fact called "The Lord's Prayer". The prayer quoted by Valerie is a typical before meal prayer giving thanks for the meal you are about to eat. Although the one Valerie quoted is quite common, such "giving thanks" prayers may take any form. There is no set rule for them. Even a simple one liner such as "Thank you God for the food I am about to eat" is totally acceptable.
My grandfather was Pentecostal and he said the same prayer before every dinner, except he was from the country so he said. "hep us to do thy will".
Valerie,
You are no better than anybody else, nobody is better than you. If your beliefs make you ahappy, keep your beliefs. You must understand other people live lives shaped by very different experiances. These lives may lead them to different conclusions.
Let us stop focusing so much on the minutae that divides us and take a moment to realize that we are all humans.
@ M I
I'm the knock off. But there is no "right one." I was trying to offer an example of a repetitive prayer. I don't claim to have all the answers. Heck, I don't even have part of the answers. But I will say this to Scott – you need to familiarize yourself with the Bible because the Bible is an important part of history, even if you don't believe it. If you want to consider yourself an educated person and debate religion, please have some knowledge of the text. That is how you "question religion."
I am Catholic.... and it is ALWAYS AN AUDIBLE... THANK YOU GOD AMEN....
Valeri..do you pry when you eat other stuff...besides food..?
Jesus was not Catholic. Neither am I.
Valerie, "True Church of Jesus Christ, not some knock off"... Are you serious? Here's something that is not a knock-off, The Catholic church is the dysfunction poster child of perverted religion! This is the most ridiculous things I’ve read all year. Before you ever write anything referencing God I strongly suggest you spend some time READING the word. There are so many things done in the Catholic Church that violates God's Word...You are in no position to judge the body of Christ in any capacity, if your entity of Catholicism even believes in Christ!.... Unbelievable... Good luck with that one when you get to the gate. Matt259 you made a great point up until you shamed her (as WRONG as she may be) that too falls under judgment... Keep on keeping on & don't take the bait.
Scooter... When Jesus pray's he prays to the FATHER... commonly known as God... As all of us do, through Jesus when we pray.
while I'm sure you attend Church, I must inform you that Jesus was just a man
That's hilarious: you used truth and church in the same sentence, when they obviously mean opposite things. Religion is nothing more than a system of making it ok to hate and marginalize groups that don't believe exactly the same as you. I read of more than 10 examples of someone expressing hate and intolerance in the name of your god for every example of someone associating love, forgiveness, or just helping someone out from a desire to be more christ/buddha/mohammed/xenu-like. If there were a god, he certainly could afford to be less ambiguous, contradictory and unprovable in his instructions for us when the happiness, welfare and lives of so many billions of people hang in the balance, much less the fiction of something like a soul.
Oh please Valerie. You think that Catholicism is that only way? Religion is nothing more than man's way of trying to reach God which will never work. The Bible clearly states that so why not open it up and study it. And I mean study it don't just take what you think it means and accept it but find other sources to validate your understanding but also be open minded to be wrong and change your ideas. Rituals and prayers in vain are exactly what Judaism and Islam teach also. As for praying before meals, yeah, sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. What God understands is that regardless of whether I do or not, He knows I am thankful. I think praying before a meal is an American tradition based upon the Pilgrim's heritage.
We should ALL be Thankful for ALL we have (including the food we're about to put into our mouths). It doesn't matter what religion we cling to. This world is already "going to hell in a hand basket" my grandmother would say, so use every opportunity to pray. Life's short, Pray hard!
btw, it is "through christ OUR lord" duh.
Your spoke YOUR truth, Valerie, not mine.
Valerie,
Our Church has been bashed for almost 500 years. We don't need you to make things worse for us.
that is an interesting prayer. I usually just do a general one thanking God for a good day so far and if it isn't a good day I pray for the lord to help me through the rest of the day and I thank him for the food that I am about to eat and to bless the hands that have prepaired it and for it to help me do his will. Amen
anyone else wondering if Valerie is hot? oh, just me then?
I am an independent Baptist and believe what my pastor teaches, which is all any of us can do. However, there was only one perfect MAN on the good Earth, and he was crucified. The thing that is certain, is that none of us know the truth but come judgment day all will be revealed and all of us will have our eyes opened wide.
exactly
Also, allow me to point out, Jesus instructed us to say the Lord's Prayer, that God already knows what we need without even telling him, isn't THAT repetitive to say The Lord's prayer over and over again???
????
Dear Valerie, if you would, read where Jesus teaches us how to pray. Read the passage in context and you will see that Jesus right before he prays (in his own words), he tells us NOT TO DO like those who say vain repetitions, and who think God will hear them from the abundance of their words. What we should learn from the Lord's prayer are the components of it, namely, glorification of who God is, asking for his will to be done, asking for our provision, forgiveness (as we forgive those who transgress against us), and asking for his deliverance from temptation. It ends with glorification of God again. The Bible also commands to pray "without ceasing", so our lives should be a prayer, and not limited to those phrases. Definitely, God does not want you or me or anyone to repeat any kind of set of words–because he knows that in time, it'll lose all of its meaning to us due to the ritualistic nature of it, and it won't be from the heart. And that's where it's supposed to come from.
Actually Valerie, the Lord says when you pray to pray the Lord's Prayer and to pray in private behind close doors. He does know all the things we need it is true, but your first comment was totally uncalled for regardless what religious background you claim to be.
No, it isn't. GOD gave us free will and won't interfere with it. It's a test. Do you love Him? Do you really talk to Him and accept Him as your creator? or do you just want to take the good things and forget all those harsh rules. So, yes He may know what your going to ask for. However, like a good Father, he wants us to ask and to be like a child...HIS child!
Valeri..so..who is the Lord..when Jesus instructed you to pray to lord.... So is Jesus the lord and he is talking about himself in the 3rd person... Dont you think that some psycho stuff???
Hey Valerie, Can we agree that we are all just sinners? Saved by grace.
I agree exactly, shouldnt just be a repetitive no thought prayer. Praying to Almighty God shouldnt be a joke, or a obligitory waste of time...
I am not sure that saying the same thing makes something 'vain.' The following prayer if said with the proper intention does not imply vanity. Now if it is said publicly so that we are seen praying it, then yes, that could be certainly construed as a 'vain prayer.' In short, previous John, that passage must be understood with the correct context.
Bless us Oh Lord and these Thy gifts which we have received from Thy bounty through Christ our Lord. Amen.
To John: Is saying I love you to your parents, children etc vain repetitions?, it is not if you mean it sincerely. Even Christ repeated stuff in his prayer...see his prayer in the garden the night before his crucifixion " ...take this cup from me...." The whole point was, to mean what you say sincerely, and from the heart. Also you need to take said scripture within context of the time and who it was directed to,( ie gentiles or jews), pagans were known to repeat stuff in order to get their gods attention.
When I put food on the table for my kids, I'm not going to ask them to say grace to me every single time. I'm going to ask them to just eat the food and enjoy it.
True Guy, but I doubt that you wouldn't appreciate it if they said a simple thanks every time you fed them a meal. That is all saying grace really is, right?
I guess we might as throw out the dinner prayer as well as the Our Father, Hail Mary, Glory be and O My Jesus and every other prayer then.
Thank you Bob. I really don't care what these other people are saying, as I was NOT trying to be self-rightous at all, but if they choose to think that, oh well! AND i will DEFEND the Catholic Church, ALWAYS!
That's right defend the Catholic church and all their child molesting priests. If they were allowed to get married you might not see so much of that sickness in the Catholic church. Also it does say in the Bible not to forbid to marry like the heathen do. I am sorry but I cannot have any respect for a church that will not address this issue properly.
Yes...throw out all that mummbo jummbo crap... Its not worth spending your time over.. Live your life the right way and He will judge you according to it(im assuming, since nobody in this world has seen GOD, and if they have they are full of it)....I dont think he needs us to be think about him 24/7... Just give him the Thanks now and then and move on...
Valerie – It's fine to defend the Catholic Church, just as it's fine to be Catholic. What I think people took offense to, originally, was your contention that the Catholic Church is the "True Church of Jesus Christ, not some knock off." While I understand your reasons for believing that the Catholic Church is the "true" church, it's difficult to really defend something that's self-referencing. That is, your belief is based on one interpretation of one or two Biblical passages, as put forth by the Catholic Church – which is the thing you are defending. You see? There's no source outside of the Church and the belief itself. There are other interpretations, and of course the people who agree with those interpretations see just as clearly that they are right as you do that you are – and many of those people hold themselves to be devout Christians. Your calling their churches "knock offs" was, therefore, insulting.
About an eighth of an inch below the first option is the second option. Is that what you're looking for. Get your head out of your bible and open your eyes. There's a whole world out here you're missing.
Valerie must think that only Catholics are Christians and can be saved. I feel sorry for people like that. They ignore the problems in there own church because they think they have an edge on God and put down everyone else.
hahaha. Mike, I think that Scott was addressing JOhn, who was originally complaining about the format of this survey. The way John wanted choice 1 to be worded is given directly beneath, as choice 2.
I love how you guys can go off on any subject and turn it in to a debate. Pray or don't. I choose to pray, but not at McDonalds.
I love the ridiculous bickering amongst Christians. My way is better than your way, God loves me better. Nanny nanny boo boo.
It's the reason we athiests think you are all a bunch of delusional nitwits.
now now, not all christians bicker or are self-righteous...Valerie doesn't see that using the phrase "knock-off's" is "holier than thou", and does need to realize that denominations don't mean a thing to God, they do to MAN, but not Our Heavenly Father. She also probably doesn't realize that speaking that way, carelessly, with some obvious ignorance, may "cause others to fall away" and that my friends is not good...."forgive them Father for they know not what they do". We must do the same.
There should have been another choice – "Depends on who is cooking!" But seriously, prayer is pretty self-serving. People who pray to an imaginary friend are delusional.
Amen ...
No. 1 is really lame. Jesus never said to pray a Hail Mary (that is idolatrous) ... He never made up an 'Our Father' prayer either... He only said, "when you pray, pray with these things in mind" ... [1] "Address The Father for whom He is, the HOLY GOD, in Heaven." ... [2] Remember, that when you do address Him, "His NAME is 'extremely' HOLY." ... [3] Remember that whether anyone chooses to acknowledge God or not, "His Will' will be done; both here on Earth (eventually), as it is 'already understood' in Heaven." ... [4] Ask in great reverence, if He would "please give you the ability to receive His daily blessings; blessings you'll need for your very existence." ... [5] Ask in great reverence, if He would "please forgive you for you daily sinning, against Him primarily; against others; and also those who sin against you; forgive them." ... [6] Ask for His Guidance, "to strengthen you, that you may not fall into sinful temptation, and that if you do come in contact with sin, that He would show you a way out of it; 'before' it becomes sin in your life." ... [7] Finally, thank Him for it all, in Jesus' Name (after all, part of Jesus' death, was done so, in order that you would have a way to be able to converse with the Father in the first place; even to be able to call Him 'Abba' [Daddy], Father. Your 'daily needs' aren't identical every day; so, your prayers should also reflect that ... speak with God like you would in a normal conversation – He dosen't want, or care for repetitous prayer, like idolators do to their gods. I hope this helps.
That was great john! Thanks